>> what is -- is that how the courts have ruled? what about johns hopkins doctor who took these? tell us about him. >> welcome there were a lot of them. there was a team of doctors. howard jones was her initial doctor booze of the tumor and diagnostic. and there was a team at hopkins doing this research on cervical cancer. you know, and the scientists who grew the cells were different so they took the cells and gave them to the scientist and he gave them away for free. no one ever patented the cells. that wasn't something you did in the 50's so he gave them to anyone he thought would use them for science. and they quickly went all over the world. at one point a factory was set up where they were mass produced so about 3 trillion cells zero weeks of the volume of the cells produced is just kind of incomprehensible.

>> when you produce these besides polio where else have they gone? >> everywhere. >> other examples? of products? >> you can use them as a baseline. you can grow as i said you can grow various things so if you want to grow a certain protein you can use the cells for that. and just the research literally is if you go to a scientific data base and taipei and hela it's like going on google and typing "and" the research still goes today. >> what is hela? >> it's the name of the cells, it stands for henrietta lacks, and it's still going. i can't remember the number but it's the scientific journal articles published each month using hela cells i think it's about, i don't remember the number of around 3,000 papers a month.

so just enormous amount of research. >> how did you find this story? -- >> after the 70's it became more public knowledge? >> most people don't know her name or anything about her that there are these cells, so scientists or biology teachers will talk about cancer and cells and say we learned a lot of what we know about cancer and cells from this one line of. these cells have been growing since 1951 and there's a sort of sci-fi elements because i can say they've been alive longer than the person that came from. >> part of it is my teacher knew her name for some reason. he wrote it in big letters on the board and he said these cells can from a woman named henrietta lacks and she was black and that was it. he raced the board and class was over. i went up to him afterwards and said what else we know about her? said that's it. we don't know anything else.

and it just stock. as i got older and got interested in writing -- yes, i've been living with fees' cells since the 80's. >> are you the first person to pursue this as a book? >> there was one book that came out in of late 80's called conspiracy of cells and was about a very specific moment in the cells history so there is the cells have the ability to contain other cultures so they grow so powerfully and cells can float on dust particles and travel on unwashed hands so if you touch a dish of cells and something else you can transfer this piece of answer without knowing it hela cells had grown out of control and contaminated and so this one guy wrote a story just about that, the contamination issue and the controversy it caused but no one ever wrote about her, the family and the larger scope of the cells and there is history and science and the ways the effect medicine and a broad look at it.

>> so one day one when you said to yourself i'm going to write a book about henrietta lacks, what did you do? >> welcome it didn't happen quite like that. i was a graduate student in a program so i got my undergraduate degree in biology and then decided -- >> so you do have a science background. >> then i decided to study of writing and i've been to this program and part of what you do in these programs is you have to write a thesis, it is a book length manuscript and you produce it by the end of the school and so literally the program started and we started first class and you now have to come up with a book idea which is inconceivable to students. i teach a program and that phreaks everyone out. you can't do a book in three years. coming up with the idea, researching and writing it is an impossible task. so i, like many students said i will write a collection of essays because that is easier to

conceive of than one entire book. and i knew it had to be 150 pages and so i thought i was going to write a book, a collection of essays about forgotten women of science and a did a little proposal and wrote at top of the page forgotten women of science and numbered one through 12 because i knew the page count if it was like ten pages per woman and i wrote henrietta lacks on the first line and then i was like a wonder who the 11 other people will be so i was like well i will just start trying and the henrietta lacks thing and see where it goes and here i am 11 years later just published the book. so there was a moment when i first started -- >> [inaudible] >> what i did is my coursework and left without finishing my thesis and everyone said you're crazy, don't do that and i was like no i'm just going to do the book the way i feel like i have to and then i will come back and hand them the butt and get the degrees and yes, technically i just got my degree of that long ago as i finished my courses and

99, 2000, and my diploma i think since 2008, maybe 2007. so yes i did eventually get back into it. >> when did you meet her family? how did you find them? >> i met them in -- i guess it was back to the january 1st 2000 when i finally met any of them in a person. >> was that exciting? >> it was absolutely exciting and terrifying. i had been trying a long time to get them to talk to me and they were resistant. it took about a year-and-a-half -- >> why were they nervous? with a suspicious? >> i was one of a long line of people who had come wanting something particularly white people and they just didn't trust anybody. the had so many bad experiences. henrietta's medical records were released to a journalist and publisher at one point in the book conspiracy of cells. at one point somebody came to them and said he was a lawyer and that he was going to sue on their behalf and in the up trying to steal their mothers'

medical records and there were so many things that happened they didn't know who to trust and didn't believe anyone no matter what they said they were trying to do. so, you know, every understandably they were weary of me so it took a long time to sort of get them to talk to me and start to open up. >> what did you learn from them? >> a lot. i will probably be figuring out what i learned from them for years. i was in the late 20s at that point and i didn't really know what i was doing -- >> probably safer that way. >> yeah and a lot of people say why did you keep going, a lot of roadblocks. i was young and inexperienced and was going to do this thing. kind of impossible how the task

was when i sell to do it and so i think i learned so much but one of the things i learned very early on was the importance of thinking about the impact journalists have on the people they write about because a lot of their mistrust towards me was the ways in which the that sort of had bad experiences in the past and writers had come and gone and had different effects on them so i spent a lot of time thinking about that as i was trying to win their trust and thinking about what my duty was as a writer sort of ethically speaking and one of the first things that i really thought a lot about was this idea of being in the the person who came along and was going to benefit from this in ways that they might not and i wanted from the beginning i felt like it was important for them for this to be something that could benefit them if it was also a way to benefit me. so i said from the beginning i would set up a foundation which i did so i set up this henrietta

lacks foundation and its among other things a scholarship fund for descendants of henrietta lacks some of the proceeds go in there and they can hopefully be able to get some scholarship money for school and hopefully some of her children help them with health care. so that all came out of this sort of time of seeing how traumatized they were and understanding i was coming to them as another person part of that story and wanting to approach it in a way that was sent away to be damaging for them. >> did johns hopkins willingly work with you on this book? >> yeah, they never tried to hide anything. i had access to archives there and for them this story has been out there in small versions for a long time, little newspaper articles, magazine stories had been published with just the nugget of the store, a woman's cells to give without permission, important in science.

in some ways they were relieved i was doing the book so they could stop answering these questions over and over again from journalists sitting did you take these without permission. but i think there was not an understanding of the whole scope of the story the way the children were used in research and so i think there -- a lot of people have been learning from the book about the range of things that happened. >> did you talk to the ancestors of the doctor himself took the "the immortal life of henrietta cells? >> i did. >> he's still alive? >> her initial dr. is 99 now. >> what is his name? >> covered jones. he's an incredibly important scientist, physician. he was behind the first test-tube baby in the united states, he and his wife were real pioneers and in vitro fertilization and infertility research so he was alive and he

remembered her case very vividly because it was unlike anything that he had ever seen so i talked to him and also yes, i spent a lot of time with henrietta's siblings and cousins she grew up with as siblings. her husband was still alive, so a lot of extended family i spent time with. >> was their anything nefarious about taking of the cells of 1951? >> no, there wasn't. this was something that was up above the standard practice. there was absolutely no real intention, there was nothing done to her. they took the sample without asking. they could have never imagined what that could have led to. we didn't know what dna was so they couldn't know that someday someone would be able to look in the cells and one about her kids or grandkids or great grand kids. the had no concept of these would be worth any money. none of that was even a remote possibility at that time. for them this was just about trying to grow cancer cells to cure cancer and there was no ill

intention at all. >> once they started selling fees' cells was there any discussion at johns hopkins about financial support for the family? >> no and hawkins never sold them. they give it away for free and they are sort of public domain. you could sell them if he wanted to. there is no patent. they are just out there and anyone can grow them, any scientist can grow them. >> johns hopkins patented them would be a different story? >> absolutely they would have profited directly bit in the 1950's there couldn't have been patent, people didn't start patenting cell lines and things like that until later. that is one of the tough questions about the issue people often ask has the family been given any money and the answer is no for a lot of reasons and if one of which is it is impossible to trace who made the money, how much was made, how much of the money -- you can go

on line and some of the biggest biotech companies started off this one company selling hela cells but the didn't get where they are just by selling hela cells. you can buy a vial of the hela cells for to under $50 the products are about $10,000 a bottle but how much of that is hela and how much of it is this audience and all this other stuff, people who -- >> you said you could buy a vital for to hundred 50 from? >> biological supply companies. cemex a lot of companies sell them. >> there's nonprofit banks that provide them and the money goes back into keeping cells alive and growing for science and there are for-profit companies. anyone can sell them. so that is a big question that comes up related to that. in terms of money going to the family. right now most people in america have some tissues on file somewhere a lot of them raise used in research, some turned

into commercial products in some ways and so the question of getting money to the lacks, then what about the billions of the people whose cells are being used in research and where does the money come from? and is part of a larger discussion that is happening about who should be profiting off parts of the human body and who should have control over that. and a lot of ways it is becoming part of the health care debate because so much of the future of medicine and drugs and vaccines and everything else starts with research on human honor flights and from people often without them realizing that and then commercialized. they are taken for free from people, turned into products and sold back and a lot of people can't afford them so there is this it's becoming a part of the larger health care debate about who should have access. >> how do the hela cells differ from stem cells?

>> guest >> the ar cancer cells and stem cells are not, they can grow into other kind of cells and hela cells are cancer cells sue dear very specific kind of cell but now science you can alter hela cells and turn them into whether cells which is amazing so scientists have the ability to take a hela cell and me to behave like a heart cell so in some ways the have been fears the sound like stem cells the different because they can't become something else and also they are not normal cells. the extremely abnormal dna so a lot about them -- >> where do her kids live and what do they do? >> they live in baltimore and they are most of them unemployed. several are in place. one of her sons drives a truck. he was laid off from bethlehem

steel a while ago so he does occasionally long-haul trucking and down the coast and they are in their 60's and 70's and -- >> did your book "the immortal life of henrietta lacks" bring them media attention or have they avoided the limelight? >> there's definitely been media interest but they are picking and choosing what they do but they were on cbs sunday morning and to the segment recently which was great for them. they loved the chance to go elbe and speak for themselves and have people hear them to read one of the things happening with the story is i worked on this over a decade and there was quite a while they were like kiev right you're never going to finish thisjeç book and then whi did finish there was this sense among her kids nobody was going

to read or nobody was going to care because that was their experience most of their lives so for them the media coverage and -- the country a lot of my eve ensler as i've been on the book tour and the response has been amazing for them because it's been validating. for her children the story has so much about we want to get recognition for our mother and what happened to her and often in a lot of ways i think they haven't really felt that much of the story in terms of themselves and with the experience an animal will freeze the book is about them and the research on them and the fact they went through something in some ways much more traumatizing than what happened to their mother and one of the things that's happened is they are able to own their story more because people come to them and say i'm sorry for what he went through. thank you for your mother's contribution to science. and that's the world to them.

>> today with a doctor think about taking cells without taking the patient permission? to make it depends on how the cell are taken. what happened to the family in the 70's researcher going to the person specifically for the tissues for research couldn't happen today. there's a federal law that says if you go to a person just to take tissue for research you have to ask and tell them what you're doing. but it the tissue is taken for some other reason you have a biopsy and sign a form that says my doctor can dispose of my tissue in the way he sees fit and then your name is stripped off of those and they are often put into a bank and then its if a researcher wants to do research on that they don't have to come back and get permission because it isn't research, human being it is on part of them that's now detached from their name and identity. estimate is that controversy? >> yes particularly since the argument has been those or anonymous samples that can never be tracked back to the person but of course now we do have the

ability to find the person's identity using dna. it's not something done very often that it's possible so ten years from now with these anonymous samples are going to tell about a person no one can imagine but also just beyond that there is a bigger issue of people want to know what's being done with their dna and other tissues and there's been lawsuits over this and i talked to a lot of the people involved and across the board they say the same thing which is what the lacks chellie says as well which is if they have asked us we would say yes. nobody wants -- they understand this is research but when they find out after the fact there are things being done with their tissue they don't know about and they are being commercialized that is when they get angry and start feeling like something bad is going on. >> are there other henrietta lacks out there? >> there's many in ways there's billions of them we just don't know what their names and stories are. it's one of the interesting things that has happened since the book came out is i've been

getting e-mails from scientists, the response to the hela story is incredible, there are so many who work with of the cells every day and half and never stopped to ask where they came from or they learned they came from or donated from a woman and one of the things happening is i've been getting e-mails from scientists saying thank you for the story. it's important to know where these came from and i work a lot with this cell line, do you know where that came from so i've been getting all of these e-mails from scientists sitting please tell me about this other cell line and what the story is and if you go to the banks where you can buy cells you can scroll through the catalog and will say things like 16-year-old african-american male killed in a motorcycle accident or 12-year-old caucasian female died of lymphoma. sutton sometimes you get a little snippets of their stories but nothing beyond that and a lot of scientists are sort of

now saying did that person get permission and probably not and what we know about them so the story of henrietta lacks is a window into these billions of other samples. >> do uzi a broader book on the horizon? [laughter] no. >> have you called these other folks? >> i don't think you could. the thing that is different about henrietta's story from the other people as her name was released so we know who she is. but yeah, there is privacy concerns would keep you from ever really sink in names of any of the other cell line. so there is plenty of my friends to say great you're going to spend the rest of your life writing about each of the henrietta to read and not because part of what is the same as what makes the henrietta lacks story is and packed full is what happened after the cells were taken. in a lot of ways it is more of

her family and the aftermath of the cells which didn't happen because nobody got a phone call saying your mother's cells are still alive 25 years after she died and we want to do research on use a lot of the story is what happened after. >> this book has really taken off when the book tv producer brought it into the editorial meeting to discuss it the whole group said my god what is this story? we have to know this story. >> which is the same reaction i had when i first heard it. people often say our review shocked people are responding to the book the way they are and isn't just -- aren't you blown away to see this book, a science book of cells on "the new york times" bestsellers list? it's like writers are not supposed to say the imagined things like this happening but it doesn't surprise me because i had the same reaction everyone else is having, just the basic facts are so incredible you hear them and go but? i have to know what happened and tell people about this. that is exactly what i said when

i heard it. i feel the way the book has taken office about the story cells off is about the story. there is a way in which i can actually see this separate from this thing i did because it is the fact of the story people are responding to i think. >> where do you live, what is your day job and where did you grow up? >> i live in memphis, tennessee. i've been teaching at the university on faculty the last three years in the creative writing program. i grew up in portland oregon and i have lived in lots of places to read i went to an undergraduate school in fort collins, rebel cut in grad school in pittsburgh and lived in new york. i've moved around a lot. >> why biology? what interested you about biology? >> i was actually pre-vet at sesto with animals and by the time i was 5i was went to be a veterinarian so i was very one

track about that so for me i was always interested in science and medicine but it was very much part of this and always being effect. >> do you feel like henrietta lacks as a friend of yours? >> i feel like she's definitely a huge part of my life and yes there is this sense and which deborah in particular, her daughter believes that henrietta is out there and is very much alive in the universe with a fees' cells and she's been biding my life like i am a puppet and a lot of what happens in my life is because henrietta does or doesn't want it so yes, henrietta is a constt presence in my life. >> rebecca skloot is the author, speed is the book. >> for more information you can go on line to booktv.org to be

the site includes better access functions and ec navigation pure you can learn more about authors and books including the kamikaze diary. this is 20 minutes. professor of anthropology at the university of wisconsin madison has written another book, this one is ," causey die aires reflection of a japanese student soldiers." professor, where did the term, kamikaze come from? >> well, they came twice and they were going to try to land and then the storm came and all of the ships are overturned. that is how japan was saved so to speak and therefore they said

this was god's wind to save japan. >> is that what kamikaze means? >> every character has to promote one pronunciation, and two characters for kamikaze bickel shampoo in japan. >> what does that mean? >> the same thing, dodd's wind. >> when did the japanese military start to use the term kamikaze or is that still an english term we use? >> it has been used but in a particular operation i fink there are distinct before you call kamikaze. one is pearl harbor and that was different because it wasn't the one mission and the submarine was waiting for them to return

so that was a very different one. but then 1i wrote is at the very end of the war when everybody knew japan had absolutely no chance of winning and so the vice admiral of the navy came up with a very crazy idea that at the nuclear age he thought the only means left for japan was to use the japanese soul which prepare them to face death without hesitation. so he came up with a one-way mission and by that time the government had shortened the university twice so unless you are in education science

everybody has to be drafted so the kamikaze pilots about 4,000 perished at the end of the war, 3,000 were so-called bully pilots, they were trained very early and they were much more susceptible to propaganda but nobody really i don't think died without hesitation that we don't have any records whereas 1,000 of them are intellectual cream of the crop, graduates of the university of tokyo and other top universities and at that time students latin, greek, french, german philosophy, literature, all of that in the original languages and so there were enormously well-educated and they did not have a choice but to quote on quote a

volunteer. >> sinnott tralee volunteers is what the research has shown? >> that's right so i went through the diaries and it was fascinating of course at some point they felt they really should protect their country and sometimes they say usually the mothers and others would be raped and all that and all that propaganda was influential. gist like the homeland at tuck come free much of a catch phrase whenever you want to stir up patriotism. but other times there was the that's not my true feelings so there's a tremendous interesting process where there is ambivalence and fascinations and all set but none