with conscious and unconscious biases and stereotypes. and it can affect decision-making at all levels of our institutions and organizations. but by the time i left the aclu, after working on racial profiling issues and police brutality and working with families of people who are incarcerated, i really came to believe that our criminal justice system was not just another institution in fact it with racial bias, but a different beast entirely. it really is the mass incarceration of people of color in the united states today, really is a stunningly comprehensive and well designed and disguised form of social control analogous to jim crow. lpcllllhlll'llple'llpll%%'+lll!

african-americans during your jim crow era. you're automatically fove, unemployment, housing, access to benefits really gated to a permanent second-class status much like your parents or grandparents may have been during the jim crow era. host: you go back to the regan era.

you go back to the reagan era as far as the war on drugs is concern. take us back there and how did that play into your thinking as far as developing the themes for your book? >> most people assume that ronald reagan announced the drug war in response to the emergence of crack cocaine in inner city communities. and that's just false. actually, president reagan declared the drug war in 1982 a few years of about crack hit the street in inner city communities and became a sensation in the media. the reagan administration seized on the drug war with glee as an opportunity to build public support for its new war. and actually, hired of staff, whose job it was to publicize crack in inner city communities, stories about crack babies, and crack dealers and inner city communities and those images quickly flooded the evening

news, and really forever changed kind of our racial conceptions about who drug users and drug dealers are. but the drug war was actually launched in response to racial politics, not drug crimes. when the drug war was announced, drug crime was actually on the decline, not on the rise. but the drug war was part of a broader project that the republican party was embarked upon. you know, to try to build a new majority in the south, a new republican majority in the south, and many of their strategists talked openly about using kind of implicit racially coded appeals around crime and welfare, as a means appealing to poor and working class white voters. who were resentful of busing and desegregation, and affirmative

action. these were voters who had once been part of kind of democratic new deal coalition, but whose rules had been changed in profound ways by the advances of the civil rights movement and they found that by using language, like tough on crime, and the war on drugs, and the elimination of welfare, that they could appeal to those voters who understood that those kinds of initiatives and campaigns were meant to crack down on them. poor folks of color who were for the first time being seen as having some advantages. over whites. that was the incident for the drug war, not drug crime. >> host: our guest with us until 10:00 a.m., and if you want to ask her questions about her book and her themes of her book. there's how you can do. --

african-american men, especially who have dealt with the drug war policy and a deal with >> host: what's been the end well, the expo 911nal spreasfrolve -- in an incredibly shortt period of time. we went from a proven population to of 300,000 to more than 2al million. our prison population quintupled inçó a remarkably short period of time. we now have the largest we now have the largest press on population and the highest rate

of incarceration of any other country in the world. we dwarf the rates of even highly repressive regimes like china and iran and most people targeted in the drug war are not violent offenders or drug kingpins as you might be led to imagine. in fact, four out of five drug arrests are for possession, only one out of five for sales. most people in state prison for drug offenses today, most of them have no history of violence or significant selling activity. but in poor communities of color, these non-violent, offenders have been rounded up, literally by the millions, branded felons, and then released into a permanent undercast, not class, cast, a lower cast of individuals, who are, you know, locked into a

second class status by law and custom for the rest of their lives. >> host: what's the ratio of those arrests between african-american men and their counterparts? >> guest: well, in some states, like illinois, african-americans have been 80% to 90% of those arrested and convicted of drug offenses. rates differ by state, but what i think is important for people to understand is that the studies consistently show that contrary to popular belief, people of color are no more likely to use or sell illegal drugs than whites. use or sell illegal drugs than whites. our stereotype of a drug dealer is, you know, a black kid standing on the street corner with his pants hanging down. well, drug dealing happens in the ghetto for sure, but it happens everywhere else in america as well. in fact, you know, where

significant differences in the survey data have been found, frequently suggest that white youths are more likely to engage if illegal drug dealing than black youth, but it has been black youth and particularly young black men that have been the primary targets of the drug war. >> when you make those assertions, where do you get the rezap then to back that up, what kind of sources do you go to? >> there's some excellent data that can be found through the sentencing project. the sentencing project, here in d.c. has done a fantastic job of analyzing, and publicizing through its reports, all of the data that the department of justice publishes on an annual basis, so this is based on the government's own statistics and many of the reports that have been done by the sentencing project. >> calls, atlanta, is first on our democrats line, jane john with michelle alexander, she's the author of "the new jim

crow." go ahead please. >> caller: yes, prisoners in the -- the census counts the prisoners in the county they're in and some of the money from the federal government and representatives, that's determined by the census count. that count goes toward that. but they can't vote. how does the district get credit for that prisoner and moneys allocated to him for the account? >> guest: yes, you're absolutely right. what you're referring to is the practice of the census bureau of counting prisoners in the counties in which the prisons are located. rather than counting them as residents of their home communities. so you know, in states like new york, for example, the overwhelming majority of prisoners come from new york

city, and other urban areas. but most of the prisons in new york are in predominantly white rural areas. so this census rule, this census practice, means that, you know, all of those black and brown folks who are warehoused in prisons and white rule areas are counted as members of the kind of local population in these white rural counties, even though they're barred from voting, and because they're counted in these white rural communities, it means that extra resources, and state funding is granted to those communities because their population is inflated, the population count is inflated as a result of prisons being located. but it also means that those counties through redistricting get additional state representatives, you know, representing them in the legislature. so the poor communities of color for which these folks, you know,

are taken, lose representatives while the white rule counties that house prisons get additional state representatives, even though the people who are you know, supposedly residents there don't even have a right to vote. >> host: cleveland, ohio, you are next. jennifer or our republican line. good morning. >> caller: good morning. thank you for taking my calm. hi, michelle. i just wanted to thank you for at least touching on a subject that i've always felt kind of strongly about, the justice system, particularly as it pertains to drugs. in a way, it seems like it's a waste of commodity, that drug dealers can in a way, be more entrepreneurial. however, i mean, why does it have to be so racial, just because everybody happens to -- the makeup of demographic background happens to be

predominantly black and latino, and some white, and then you refer to them as taken as if they're taken captive. do you just totally discredit the idea that they broke the law? and i totally agree with you about the felon and having a record and not being able to get a job. however, i mean, rather than being racial about it, and partisan, and sawing republicans are -- saying republicans are racist like reagan, why not address the rehabilitation measures as opposed to blaming it on a party and calling everybody racist? i mean, you know, it's the law. and laws are set up to protect us. do you suggest just not having laws to protect the people, not having laws to keep people -- this is a civil society. we're supposed to follow laws, i mean, what do you suggest other than calling people racist, why can't we have different

rehabilitation measures, specifically training people who are in there for drug dealing, to use those skills that they learned as drug dealing into the community to own their own business -- >> host: caller, thank you. we'll let our guest respond. >> guest: well, my concern here is that young people of color in particular, are being targeted and branded as felons at young ages, you know, a form of branding that will alter the course of their entire lives. for engaging in minor drug activities. the very kinds of activity that goes on in suburban communities, middle class white communities, colleges and universities, all the time. and those kids aren't asked to forefit the rest of their lives because they made a mistake and were experimenting with pot or experimenting with drugs or, you

know, some drugs with their friends. in middle class white communities, it's understood that kids make mistakes, adults make mistakes, and when it comes to drug use in particular, why should anyone who uses drugs be put in a cage, put in a cage, and then released to a permanent second class status in which they're subjected to discrimination, scorn and exclusion for the rest of their life. it's just an utterly, irresponsible and unnecessarily punitive response to what amounts to a public health problem. you know, i don't think most americans would want anyone they cared about, who had a drug problem, to be put in a cage. i don't think most americans would want anyone they cared about to be subjected to discrimination for the rest of their life, simply because they broke the law once. but in our society, it appears we don't hear that much about

kids in the ghetto. kids who are black and brown living in communities that are racially segregated and which it's become normal for their parents to do time in prison, and when they're stopped and searched on their way to school and on their way home and driving in cars, this has become normal in these communities. part of what it means to be black in america, and you know, we as a nation hold ourselves out as an example of, you know, racial equality and freedom in the world and we shouldn't have a system in this country that relegating young people of color in particular to a lifetime of social and economic marginalization, -- marginalization, simply because they were once caught with drugs. >> columbus, ohio next, valerie on our independent line. sam re, are you there? one more time for columbus,

ohio. >> caller: hi. good morning, and thank you, c-span. >> host: go ahead. calmercaller, if you would justn down your television to you don't get feedback. >> caller: i have a question here and i read maybe a couple years ago that in comparison, if you have an african-american male that's graduated from high school and college and has a clean background and then you take caucasian male, who just has a high school education, and has a drug background, he will more than likely get the job before the african-american. and the second question i have, do you think it's lot of harm being done to the african-american community by a lot of the shows that are coming on, crime shows, that depict african-american youth as being drug dealers. >> guest: yes.

you're absolutely right. the studies that have recently been conducted indicate that an african-american without a criminal record will have a harder time getting a job, will have a harder time getting a job than, you know, a white male, that has a criminal record. and this shows, you know, kind of the profound disadvantage that african-american men in particular face in the employment market today. african-american men both kind of suffer racial stigma and racial discrimination, but they also far too often have been branded felons. and you know, in the current job market, where people who don't have criminal records have a very hard time getting a job, imagine what the odds are for young folks of color, who have been branded felons.

what are the chances that they'll be able to find meaningful work in the current economy? >> host: our guest again, our book is "the new jim crow, mass incarceration in the age of color bindness" and we are going to be with our guest for about a half-hour more. harlem is next. charles on our democrat line. >> caller: hi, good morning pedro and michelle. i'd just like to air a sentiment that perhaps goes back even to the british empire, which promotes the notion that there has been a per pettation of an illusion that translates in to the notion behind the so-called new jim crow, it's not new at all, it's been perpetuated, and it's perhaps the best kept

secret in the universe. the manner of the different masters who seem to have collaborated with one another, for instance, the different kinds of masters use different nature of oppression. the british have an expression that goes something like this. it is not only in the administration of justice, it must be so, but that it must also appear to be so. so there has been an ongoing ponzi cheaply, to say the -- scheme, to say the least, of the perpetuation of an idea and we suffer, both black and white, from mass impressionism. and our younger people, who are caught up in this bubble, it's really sad, because they have no

idea, they have no frame of reference and as adults, we have fallen down tremendously on the job of communicating it to them, so that's why you see them going around with their pants dropped down and all of that. but aside from that, you know, it's the best kept secret in the universe. i'd sort of like to hear your comments on that, and thank you so very much for listening. happy new year. >> guest: well, thank you for your comment. i spend the first chapter of my book describing in some detail kind of the cyclical rebirth of racial cast in america. you know, since our nation's founding, african-americans have repeatedly been controlled through institutions, like slavery and jim crow, which appear to die, but then kind of emerge in new form, tailored to

the needs and constraints of the time, and i think what we're seeing today or what we have seen over the past few decades, is the emergence, within a relatively short period of time, of this massive new system of control. that appears color blind, but in fact, operates much in the same way that earlier systems of control once did. in fact, you know, in some cities, like take the chicago area for example, in some cities, more than half of working age african-american men today have been branded felons. branded felons. and are thus subject to legalized discrimination for the rest of their lives. you know, the clock really has been turned back on racial progress in america today, but you know, scarcely, anyone seems to notice. all eyes are kind of fixed on

barack obama and oprah winfrey, but for huge portion of the african-american population in particular, you know, life is much like it once w 50 years ago. >> we have a question on twitter who asks, the blacks in prison were sent interest by a mixture of black-white juries. what's wrong with that? >> guest: i think one of the prevailing myths merely by sprinkling african-americans through police departments and prosecutors offices and appointing more black judges that we'll solve the problem of racial baez in the criminal justice system and that's just not accurate. you know, until we change the policies, practices, abandon the design of the institutions, that are responsible for waging the drug war, and eliminate all the

financial incentives that currently exist, you know, cash give-aways to local law enforcement agencies and state highway patrols that boost their drug arrest numbers regardless of whether drug crime is going up or down in those communities, you know, drug for fitzroy tour laws, which allow law enforcement agencies to keep for their own use the cash, cars, and homes of people who have been accused of drug offenses, until we change those kind of policies and practices, and the basic structure of this new system of control, just sprinkling people of color into these preexisting institutions, and expecting them to, you know, enforce these policies but in a slightly kinder, gentler way, i think is unreasonable to expect different outcomes just by kind of changing the complexion of folks that are charged with implementing policies, and practices that are inherently discriminatory. >> to that thinking, would you

change drug laws? >> mr. skwrao: absolutely. >> how so? >> well, first off, i would drastically reduce the amount of time that people are serving in prison for drug offenses. it's just unheard of anywhere else in the world. >> host: regardless of the drug, whether it be marijuana or cocaine. >> guest: given the amount of increase in the 1980's, congress and state legislatures around the country in many cases, up know, doubled, triple tripled, quintupled the length of prison time people would do for relatively minor drug offenses. you know, it used to be that in the federal system, nobody, nobody spent more than a year in prison for a first time drug offense. it was just absolutely unheard of. and in other places around the world, you know, the amount of time people spend in prison for drug offenses can be measured in days, weeks, and months, rather than years. but here, in the united states, some people are serving life sentences for marijuana

possession. life sentences for marijuana possession. people are routinely sentenced to 10, 15 years for relatively minor drug crimes. you know, this is just absolutely, you know, inexcusable. given the nature of these offenses. these are public health problems that we should be struggling to deal with through, you know, making drug treatment more available and counseling for offenders. so i would drastically reduce the sentences. bring them back down, your know, so that we can begin to count them in terms of months perhaps, rather than years, and then i think we should also seriously consider the legalization of marijuana. you know, much of the available research today indicates that marijuana is actually less harmful than alcohol or tobacco. and yet we have people doing life sentences for the possession of marijuana. you know, it's an irrational system.

but it's also a system that has had absolutely devastating tragic consequences in poor communities of color where the drug war has been waged. >> what would you do with the harder drugs then? >> i think there is mixed research out there and i have an open mind to drug legalization, even for harder drugs, but you know, i think for our purposes right now, at least my concern right now, is you know, bringing us back in time to the way we used to prosecute drug crimes. if we were to go back to the form of drug law enforcement that we had in the 1970's, in fact, let me put it this way. if we were going to go back to the rate of incarceration that we had in the 1970's, you know, a time by the way that manyself right activists thought that rates of incarceration were egregiously high, but if we were going to go back to the bad old days of the 19 sets, we would have to release four out of five people who are in prison today.

ok? you know, more than a million people employed by the criminal justice system could potentially lose their job. that's how enormous and entrenched the system has become in hand extremely short period of time, so we don't need to legalize all drugs in order to have a sane drug policy, but i think we should keep an open mind to drug legalization. >> next call is decatur, illinois. joan on our republican line. >> caller: yes. i would like to ask michelle where she was raised. >> guest: well, i was raised all over. my family moved around a lot as i was growing up, but i was born in chicago and i have since lived in pane places, in california, i lived for a while in washington, d.c., i lived in nashville, tennessee, i've lived in a number of different places in the country. >> host: bell mucher town, massachusetts, good morning, eugene on our independent line. >> caller: good morning.

first of all, i think you are conveniently leaving out a key component to the drug war. i grew up outside of l.a. now i live outside of springfield. the violence associated with inner city drug use is a lot different from the guy down the street who's maybe selling marijuana in white suburbia. when i grew up it was hell's angels, which cracked down on just as many other african or hispanic gangs. you don't see people driving down my street doing drive-by shootings. i would like to hear your opinion on that. >> guest: well, i'm glad you raised that, because i think most people assume that the drug war really is aimed at ruling -- at routing out violent drug offenders, but you know, as i

indicated, the data suggests that you know, the targets, the principal targets of the drug war have not been violent offenders at all, but kind of rounding up en masse very low level, non-violent drug offenders in poor communities of color. and when you brand them felons, then you kind of virtually guarantee that they will have a very difficult time ever getting work in the legal economy, and you know, as we know, as the data shows, about 70% of people who are released from prison return. within three years. and so if you're concerned about violent crime in poor inner city communities, as i am, then you should absolutely oppose the drug war. because the drug war isn't concerned primarily with routing out, you know, violent offenders or dealing with the serious problem of violent crime in these communities. in fact, you know, initially

when the drug war was announced by reagan, there was considerable resistance within some law enforcement agencies that were concerned about, you know, diverting their resources away from, you know, serious crimes like murder, rape, robbery, burglary, they were concerned about diverting those resources towards drug law enforcement. well how did the reagan administration overcome those objections? it offered cash, you know, these huge cash grants to law enforcement agencies that were willing to boost up dramatically the volume of their drug arrests. so the drug war has been motivated by kind of generating high volumes of drug arrests. kind of that's been the engine. rather than you know, devoting limited law enforcement resources to focusing on how do we address violent offenders in the system and ensure that kind of these communities aren't

plagued with high levels of violence. : and ask your local law enforcement agencies to use our t innovative host: washington, d.c. is next for our guest on the democrats line. good morning. caller: how are you doing? host: fine. go ahead. caller: yes, i would like to say as exfelon that you can get your records exsponged in different states. so maybe we need to start looking at another way for a lot of felons to get their record exspongeaged once they serve their time. but when i came out i had a lot of white folks to help me out so yotcht this to turn into a black and white issue like for

many people but if you're in the federal government taking taxes from you, you should be able to vofmente so as long as you keep tomplese and do everything else. so maybe exfelons should stop paying taxes through the government. until they don't consider them a felon. >> yes. i think you're right. guest: i think you're right that some people have been successful in getting their records exsponged but the data indicates only a tiny fraction of those lableds felons sfosme and the legislation that's pending in some areas around the country that would insfirle particularly low-level drug offerses. so i think we should look into the possibility of making

exspongement more widely available to people who have done time, particularly for drug crime. and you know, you're absolutely right. people who are convicted of crimes and then released, you know, they are expected to pay taxes. and in fact what most people don't it those are also expected to pay back the cost of their imprisonment, court costs, fees and fines. sometimes they are expected to pay back all these fees and fines before they are able to regain their right to vote. they are also expected to pay back accumulated child support payment that is have accumulated while they are in prison. in fact, in you're someone who has been released from prison and lucky enough to get a job. up to 100% of your wages can be garnished to pay backcourt cost, child supportiñi paymáuáh and feeds.çó

100% or your wages could be garnished. what realistically do we expect people to do? they can be legally discriminated agai what to expect people to do? they can be legally discriminated against a requirement, barred from public housing permits am of five years, illegally discriminated against in access to housing but the rest of their lives and then there are expected to pay back thousands of dollars in debt as a result. not surprisingly, the system creates a closed-circuit of perpetual marginality have people cycle in in out of prison often by the rest of their lives. >> host: is there any federal efforts to change the way, to allow veterans to get their voting rights back on matt nature? >> guest: yes, there are efforts in multiple states around the country to overturn disenfranchisement loss and i believe in congress as well there has been some movement in

looking at a branch to balance their voting rights and a second chance act was recently passed that provides some bond and -- putting for train and reentry to two chinese the transition for prisoners and help them to find jobs. the problem here is that no matter how much money we devote to job training and assistance for those who have been released from prison camp about 600,000 people are released from prison every year. 600,000 -- no matter how much money -- no -- as long as it remains illegal to discriminate against these folks in virtually every aspect of their economic, social and look-alike they will remain trapped in a second-class status. during the jim crow era the problem wasn't that black folks

couldn't get a job, people have jobs but they were relegated permanently to a lower tier job and that's the kind of system in many respects that we have today. even those who are lucky enough to get a job i'm release from prison, a fine harbor trapped in a lower category have job by virtue of their prison record. >> host: washington d.c., emt is next, your honor with michelle alexander. the author of speed of contact and martin. are you doing and miss alexander? >> guest: good, in view, is there in a chapter in their return to herbert hoover and how he had targeted black folks especially like the black panthers party and how he quits to today? >> guest: you're right that there is interesting history of

cspi under herbert, members leadership targeting african-american groups particularly those that were politically active, have been held, i don't spend much time discussing that particular chapter in her racial history. >> host: please set out this book on did it take you to right? what help did you get? and what's been the response to a? >> guest: well, it took me awhile to write, it took me about four years to write and who is challenging in part because my family was brought and the time. i gave birth to a couple of kids in the process and have a lot of support from my family, particularly my husband, my mother and my sister. and i've been tremendously gratified by the response that i received the book so far. especially from folks who have family members who are behind bars have been really relieved

and those folks who have been labeled balance, there has just been a tremendous amount of appreciation and gratitude by telling. there is an announcement of the nature of their condition and this opera and that they and their communities have been experiencing in primetime that has happened outside of the public view so i'm very hopeful that particularly groups like all of us or nine is a group of former leaders frustrated people who are organizing for their civil and human rights. did these groups will be able to make use of the information from data, resources and house is provided in the book to help build a movement to end mass of incarceration in america. >> guest: one of the subtitles is obama and apparel. can you touch on that as far as this is concerned? >> guest: i talked about

barack obama i think understands that racial profiling is prevalent by law-enforcement and drug war has had serious consequences for the african-american community. he's made statements indicating that he is opposed to profile nine and harsh mandatory sentences for drug offenders. he himself has said and added to pass drug use unlike president clinton the client, well, i have used marijuana once but i didn't inhale. barack obama has been very open about his prior drug use and out hope that he would have there but for the grace of my attitude for the millions of folks who are trapped in this permanent second-class status simply because they engaged in drug use but didn't get caught. the problem, however is that barack obama has also shown

himself to be to allow him to be constrained by the curb political environment and i am concerned that to at this moment in history when we have the opportunity i think to show how important is for people to be given opportunities to succeed, not be trapped in a private second class status, using barack obama as an example -- what would have happened if you would have been labeled a fallin and treated like a comment from all? more likely than not he would be settling in and out of the criminal justice system but my concern is african-americans may be hesitant to challenge the obama administration and a way that might have challenged previous administrations in response to the war on drugs because everyone is so eager to ensure that he has a successful end to rampant presidency. but it's my hope that he can overcome that reluctance and really call on her barack obama,

his administration and all those on congress to dismantle the system of control. >> host: , a republican on, patrick from orlando. >> caller: good morning. >> guest: good morning call back the truth american people, i would lose paper or radio or television, they now want to show american people the truth. they are the tools or castration. the whole idea it you have -- you want to make money off the system and privatize the system and that's what they're leading to an american people, they won't show that's what they're trying to do. we want to change our legislation. they don't talk about the judicial branch and the media don't bring that up at all. i don't know big business or whatever they want to call it, control, the demands of our media system that that is really

the influence of american people to understand what's gone on in america. that's what i have to say. >> guest: thank you remind raising the issue of the privatization of our prison system. this is an issue i think americans are aware of, but many prisons today are run by private corporations, listed on stock exchange. run by wall street. and there are billions of dollars to be made in running these prisons for profit. you now, the privatization of the prison system. all the wrong incentives, it creates incentives for lobbyists to argue for a ninth year sentences, harsher punishment for nonviolent and minor crimes. why blacks to expand the prison system and to boost profits.

and so this is a very serious problem as well of the the use in -- use of prison labor by many american corporations. today corporations routinely use prison labor to avoid pain in my hand, to avoid providing public benefits or health benefits, so corporations that are just shipping jobs overseas but there also is moving jobs behind bars. predominantly black and brown and prisoners are often working for little or no pay for american corporations in the manner that is reminiscent of slavery as it is of a speech on. >> host: michelle alexander is the author of the book, "the new jim crow: mass incarceration in the age of colorblindness". do you have a website? >> guest: yes, it is www.new jim pro.com.

>> host: thank you real-time. >> guest: thank you. >> host: michelle alexander is a former law clerk to justice harry blackmun and foreign director of the racial justice project at the aclu. for more information visit markets law.edu.

this is the cover of a soon-to-be released biography of justice john paul stevens and it is being produced by northern illinois press, sara hoerdeman

represents the publisher and you may be one of the happiest exhibiting at the organization of american historians. we learned today that justice stevens as anticipated has announced retirement. what's the theme? >> everyone at northern illinois university press is excited about this book. it's really a coincidence and ideal timing, this book has been in production and research and written for more than a decade and said to have a publication that what was already a very good book coincide with the retirement is very timely, greatly appreciated by the press, and we are thrilled to have such a terrific book coming out in a timely fashion. >> will you tell me about the author's? >> padilla is a journalist with more than 30 years experience, most of the chicago tribune's of this a trick rider and the book is written in the one who journal style with a lot of clarity and pine. gene is a tourist legislature

and lawyer in eleanor line and so he had access to a lot of the very high profile people interviewed for this book and make a great team. >> two justice stevens now about that and cooperate at all? >> yes, i wouldn't and a big sticker on a but justice stevens did sit with interviews with the authors, was aware of the projects and actually a lot of this takes up photographs of some interesting travis in his office. for example, he has a hole in one golf trophy that will appear in the interior of the book and he also kind of gave his blessing to the author's intriguing people close to him. the people close to him harm probably loyal to him so they would never have spoken with the offers without his they sell so we are able to have access to his family members, friends, former clerks, a lot of people with stevens plus. >> you say it was 10 years and making? >> the authors have done simply

astounding amount of research. the book starts with stephens family and his childhood growing up in chicago and goes all the way through the current decision regarding him refinancing some of the scope of the story they're telling is very in-depth and the number of sources and research done is really impressive. they spoke with everyone from stevens brother, his children, people who work with stevens when a lawyer and judge in chicago, president ford when still with us to appointed stevens, donald rumsfeld who was instrumental in having stevens appointed in, a former clerk in ruth spader ginsburg, so a number of people they interviewed required tremendous amount of time and research and that is out and up to 10 years. >> what kind of competition do you have in this blacks we should not for they and others that at age 90 the longest serving justice and he has several decades of legacy of the

courts. have there been other big works on his career? >> there have been had touched on stevens, there's a good book that looks at every specific part of his judicial career but nothing that is a true biography in this book really personalize stevens. he's a man who is beloved by the people we know him so in addition to covering his very important work in his influential professional life it also presents really entertaining anecdotes about his personal life and stories from people now him best and love him, so this is really the most complete look at stevens the man that there is right now and i can't imagine anything that is thrust into a rapid matchett in scope. >> what is the on sale day? >> on sale date is may 1st. >> and kube, the book is called john paul stevens, an independent life. we are talking with publisher of northern illinois university press rep. sara hoerdeman when

we learned as a nation in bad john paul stevens will step down at the and of the term. and you again. >> in queue. dave: professor laura broderick uncover of when jd comes marching home, who is that? >> that is sergeant joycelyn from a marine who went over to iraq leaving her one-year-old daughter behind and should only that she had a lot of new anxiety about going. chew on to say with her daughter at home but as soon as she got on the bus to go to cherry point and fly out she said the my mentality left me an corrine mentality hit me and i was ready to go to war. she really wants to redeploying and her mother is not crazy about that ids a your daughter has only one childhood, but as she told me you can always be but you will always get the opportunities as a marine.

>> in your subtitle portraits of women in combat veterans, combat veterans? women have been allowed? >> everyone in the military knows women are in combat and two civilians now that. of course, we have men on, but that's pretty meaningless in a war for their rarity their distinctions between mines and rear supports. >> so what is the sergeant's job? >> she actually worked with helicopters. she was on the line as they came in and out. not every woman i interviewed had a job that put her directly into combat but i did interview a marine who had a missing dog which became explosive sniffing dog when he went. >> , that was clearly a dangerous position, i interviewed women who were convoy diners who are active in

house-to-house searches and to wear riding on these very dangerous roads and sometimes getting blown up by ied's or hit by mortar. >> how did you find these women? >> it was a real process. i kind of a fumble at first because as you know the military is a parallel universe and if you don't come from a military background it can be difficult to navigate to, but i began by casting a wide net and trying to find a couple of women to talk to me and one-sided that was able to get letters of support from the marines and the army to go onto bases an interview in. >> did they choose the women that you talk to or were you allowed to talk to any? >> when i interviewed on base, the public affairs officers chose, but when i was interviewing otherwise i could choose. >> and you find any common themes among all the women? >> one thing that really

surprised me was i had gone into the project assuming that women in the military would see themselves as marginal because i think civilian see them as marginal and when i die was that was absolutely not the case. they saw themselves as soldiers or marines or sailors first and women seconds and they had amazing degree of loyalty to their fellow troops. even if they didn't believe in the war. >> the the fellow troops have a degree of loyalty to them? >> absolutely. there are many women i spoke to the whose bonds with the members of their unit were stronger than the ones that have with their children and when i had to leave their units to go home for say a child surgery, they were really torn and felt guilty and, of course, their families didn't understand this at all. >> who is captain catherine strict? >> she was interesting, is a veteran of the perth -- first gulf war. in the booktv the decision to

photograph the women who had retired from the military and their civilian clothes and everyone else is in uniform. she had been a captain, got into the military through rotc and she was involved in the first goal for. she talked about house really was for her, the band was playing and they were working in from the way. >> and seen horrible sights. cars that were burned up with people still inside them. very traumatic for her and she lived under very rough conditions in iraq. he said when her tour was up, she went to kuwait and saw the first person in a trilogy has seen in five months and she said i can leave this wise. she ended up getting out of the military and how she works on a military base as a civilian. >> she was a captain? policy in? >> she was in between five and 10 years.

>> staff sergeant shawnda jack san. >> she was a very interesting. shawnda was a great illustrational for any of the way that women who personally did not believe in the mission in, but carried it out anyway because of their loyalty to their fellow soldiers and, of course, of the uniform code of combat prohibited me from asking them and questions about how they felt about the war because in the military you're not allowed to criticize the commander in chief. but i found that women have a way of letting me now anyway. the code was supporting the troops, is it possible to support troops without supporting the war? and those who felt critical of the war would say that it was and those who didn't would say that that was impossible, you got to support the war effort as well as the troops. >> what was your goal in writing when jd comes marching home and photograph newswomen? >> visegrad of a previous book

called for best shot, and cultural history of women and guns in america, and your out that story with a threat of women in combat the way that weather and had to women were allowed to fight tied closely into whether and how they could be considerable citizens. back in the revolutionary war era you have politicians like james burke saying the difference between citizen and a slave is the ability to bear arms and defend your country. that thread ran all the way up through phyllis schlafly when people rights amendment was narrowly defeated in the early 1980 s making the point that if it was passed than women would be forced into combat and that was too much for the american public to stack in the era was defeated in here we are now in a conflict or over 220,000 women have served in a combat zone and clearly this is a watershed moment for our culture. and i want to hear what the

women who are on this front line had to say about their experiences. >> do they think their roles should be clearly changed? >> most of them absolutely. there were a few who differentiated themselves from the war fighters. >> on the frontlines, but most of them knew that they were in combat and accepted it and thought that they should be able to do what they wanted because they considered themselves equal to the men. there was no question for them. >> do you believe the rules should change? >> guess absolutely, the rules have already changed beneficially we doubt now it's a. officially i think they should be. >> what you teeten where? >> right now i am finishing up a stint at virginia commonwealth university where i taught creative writing in richmond and i'm going on to except a job at the university of richmond in the fall in teaching american studies. >> when jd comes marching home is the name of the book, laura

is the author the, sasha is the retired her. >> coming at next come booktv presents after words an hourlong discussion between guest us and the author of a new book. this week jack matlock, ambassador to the soviet union under president reagan, discusses his but "superpower illusions: how myths and false ideolgies led america astray - and how to return to reality". in the book ambassador jack matlock looks at the role played by mikhail gorbachev and been down the soviet empire and argues that president reagan's successor is learned the wrong lessons from the end of the cold war. he's interviewed by dimitri simes, president of the nixon center and publisher of the national interest.

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