"washington journal" continues. host: our guest is michele zander. her book "the new jim crowe" in the age of color blindness. could you give our folks at home a little background on yourself. guest: well, i was inspired to write this book mostly on my experience misdirected, and i'm now an academic teaming law at the hero horr state university. but when i was at the aclu i believed racial bias in the criminal justice system was

mush mp much like it all in our political and social stews ever institutions. all our society is injected with conscious and unconscious bye and it can affect decisionmaking. but by the time i left after working with families of people who were encars rated, i really came to believe our criminal justice system was not just another institution infected with racial bias, but a different beast entirely. it really is the mass incarceration of we mean eff fosme until a disguised form of social control in annual guess to pro-pro-. host: what's chief among them

as far as incarceration is concerned? guest: well, today in a so called era of colored blindness, it's no stoped use in jufferings for unusual or social contempt. so we don't. instead, today we label people of coloral crlingsprimpleely through the war on drugs. we label them felons. and ghent once labeled a felon, you could be subjected to all the forms of discrimination that once flied african-americans during your jim crow era. you're automatically fove, unemployment, housing, access to benefits really gated to a permanent second-class status much like your parents or

grandparents may have been during the jim crow era. host: you go back to the regan era. take us black and recess his foam most people would fame -- that ronald reagan announceed the drug war in response to to the emergence of crack cocaine, and that's just false. in fact president rationen declared the drug war in 1982 a few years before cac hit the streets in inner city to and became a sensation in the media. the reagan administration seized on the drug war with employee. as an opportunity build public support. for its new war. and actually hired staff whose job it was to publicize crack in anywhere inner city

communities, stories about crack babies and crack dealers. and those images quickly flooded the evening news, and forever changed out of our racial con keppingss were. it was launch@@llllllflplppllld

the drug war, not drug crime. host: our guest with us untilçó 10:00 a.m. if you want to ask questions here's how you can do so.

republicans, 202-737- 0001. democrats, -- >> what's been the end result as far as what you've seen and what it means for african-american men, especially who have dealt with the drug war policy and a deal with possiblies. caller: well, the expo 911nal spreasfrolve -- in an incredibly shortt period of time. we went from a proven population to of 300,000 to more than 2al million. our prison population quintupled inçó a remarkably

short period of time. we now have the largest prison population and highest rate of incarceration of any other country in the world. we dwarf the rates even of highly impress i have regimes. like china and iran and most people targeted in this drug war are not effectively in fact, four out of five drug averses are for possession. only one out of five -- most people in state prison for drug offenses today, most of them have no history of violence or significant selling activity. but in poor communities of color, these non-violent offenders have been rounded up literally by the millions, branded felons and then released into a permanent

undercast, not class but undercast of individuals who are locked into a second-class status by law in custom under the rest of their lives. host: what's the ratio between the those and their counterparts? guest: in some states african-americans have been 80%-90% of those arrested and differing by drug femple it's that the studies consistently show that contrary to popular belief, people of color are no more likely to use or sell illegal drugs than whites. use or sell illegal drugs than white. our stereotype of a drug dealer is a black kid standing on the street corner with his pants hanging down. well, drug dealing happens in the ghetto, depr sure.

but it happens everywhere else in america as well. in fact, you know where significant differences have been found frequently suggest white yourts are more likely to engage in illegal drug dealing than black youth. but it'sçó been black youth, an particularly black young males that have been -- associated with the drug wars. there's excellent data that can be found through the sentencing project. the sentencing project based here in d.c. has done a fantastic job of analyzing and through its report the department of justice publish foff many of the reports that have been done by the sentencing project. >> calls. host: atlanta is first on our

democrats line. you're on with michele alexander. she tess the author of "the new jim crow." caller: i found out the prisons and coups they are in and some of them moneys from the federal government and representatives that's determined by the census count, that count goes wards that. but they can't vote. how how do you get money for that prisoner and money's being allocated to their account. >> what you're referring to is the practice of the census bureau of counseling prisoners in the counties. neil: in which the citizens are located. rather than counting them as residents often their home communities. so in states like new york, for

example, the overwhelming majority of prisoners come from new york city and other urban areas. but most of the prisons in the n new york are in predominantly white, rural areas. so this census rule or crenscruns practice, because fomplee want to be nfl -- it's been a global population in these white rural counties even though they are bared from vogt. and because they are counted in these white rural communities, it means extra resources and state funding in thosen communities because the population ask the is inflate. but it also means that those counties through redistricting get additional state representatives representing

them in the legislature. so the poor communities of color for which these folks are taken lose representatives while the white rules counties that house prisons get additional state representatives even though the people who are, you know, supposedly residents there deevepbt have the right to vote. host: cleveland, ohio, you are next. jennifer on our republican line. good morning. caller: good morning. thank you-for-taking my call. hi michelle. i just wanted to thank you for at least up toing on a subject that i've always felt kind of strongly about. the justice system, particularly as it per teens drugs. in a away wasted commodity that drug dealers can be more entrepreneurial, however, i mean, why do racial just because everybody happens to sh

the level happens to be predominantly black and latino and some white, and then you refer to them as taken as if they are taken captive, do you just totally discredit the idea that they broke the law? and i totally agree with you about the felon and having a record and not being terrible get a job. however, i mean, rather than being racial about it, and partisan and saying whinchte address thee of those measures as opposed to bringing in a party and calling everybody racist? i mean, you know, it's the law. and laws are set up to protect us. do you suggest just not having laws to protect the people? not having laws to keep people -- this is a rivel -- caller: i

mean other than calling people racist why can't we have different rehabilitation measures, particularly training people in there for drug dealing can use those skills they learned drug dealing into the community to run their own business? host: caller, thank you, we'll let our guesten respond. guest: well, my concern here is that young people of color in particular are being targeted and branded as felons at young ages, you know, a former branding that will alter the course of their entire lives for engaging in minor drug activity. the very kinds of activity that goes on in suburban white communities, colleges around universities all thal time. and those kids respect asked to forefit the rest of their lives

because they made a mistake and were experimenting with pot or drugs or you know sold some drugs to their friends. middle class white communities, it's understood that kids make mistakes, adults make mistakes. and when they -- when it comes to drug use in particular, why should tpwhoin uses drugs be nut a cage and then released to a permanent second-class status envelope they are subject to scorn and exclusion for the rest of their life? it's just an utterly irresponsible an unnecessarily punitive response to what amounts to a public health problem. you know, i don't think most americans would want anyone they cared about who had a drug problem to be nut a cage. i don't think most americans would want anyone they care about to be subject to discrim nation for the rest of their life simply because they broke the law once.

but in our society, it appears we don't care that. about yeah. kids who are back and brown and liveing in communities that are for their rp parents to do name prison and when they are stopped and searched on the way to school and on the way home driveing this cars, this has has become normal in these communities, bart of what it means to be plaque in america and we as a nation hold ourselves out as an depeemp and we shouldn't is a system in this country that really gates young people of color in particular to a lifetime or social and economic marginalization simply because they were once caught with drugs. host: columbus, hero valerie up next on our independent line.

valerie are you there? one more time for columbus, hero. caller: hi, good morning. and thank you for c-span. yes, i am. host: caller and if you would just turn down your television so you don't get feedback. caller: yes. i have question. maybe a couple years ago that in comparison if you have an african-american male that's graduating from high school and college and has a clean background an then you take a caucasian male who still has , the second question i have, do you think it's a lot of harm being done to the african-american community by a lot of shows that are coming on these crime shows that depict

african-american eyes as being drug deal centers guest: yes. you're absolutely right that studies that have recently been conducted indicate that an african-american without a criminal record will have a harder time getting a job -- will have a harder time getting a job than a white male that has criminal record. and that shows kind often the propose found disadvantage that many that african-american 911 particular will have when they face the unemployment market today. african-american men and women study nomp -- and they have been branded felons. and in the current job market where people who don't have

records have a 45rd time getting a job, imagine what the odds are for young folks of color who have been branded felons, that's t area sfomp -- host: our guest again, the book is "the new jim crow" and the@@d

idea, and we offer, emergency room both black and white, from mass impression nism. and our younger people who are

caught up in this bubble, it's really sad, because they have no idea or frame of reference. and adults , we've fallen down tremendously on the job of commune caming it to them. so that's why you see it the going around with their pants dropped down and all this. i was -- aside from that fair market value -- and i'd like to hear comments on them and thank you so very much for listening, happy new year. guest: well. thank you, sir. thank you for your comment. ien spend first chapter of my book describing in some detail kind of the contradictlyical rebirth of racial cast in america. since our nation's founding african-americans have repeatedly been controlled through institutions like

slavery and jim crow which foredie. then emergens have struggled tomorrow is the emergence wan relatively short period or time of this massive new system of control. it appears color blind. but in fact, operates much in the same way that earlier systems of control once did. in fact, you know, in some cities,, like, take the chicago area. some cities more than half of working age african-american men today have been branded felons. branded felons, and are then beano for the rest of their lives.

the clock really has been turned back on the progress of racial progress in america but scaresly anyone is noticing. all eyes are fixed on barack obama and -- in particular, life is much like it once was 50 years ago. host: we have cargo off twitter says blacks were sent there by a injury of mixed. so what went wrong? >> that's an excellent been questioning on it. and i think one of the myths, the prevailing myth is that kind of merely by -- going to sprinkle african-americans through fefrl pointing out more and more glack judges that will solve the problem of racial bias in the criminal justice system. and that's just not accurate. you know, until we change the policies, practices sarnled the

design of the institutions that are responsible for waging the foverl eliminate all the financial incentives that currently exist. you know, cash giveaways to local law enforcemental agencies and state highway patrols that boost their drug arrest numbers regardless of whether drug crime is going up or down this those communities. forefit your loss which allow foe that people who have been accused of drug offenses. until we change those kinds of policies and practices in the basic truckture of this new system femme into the free suggest she was get like -- but a kinder, gentler way. i think it's unreasonable to expect different outcomes just by changeing the complexion

folks are charged with. host: with that thinking would you change drug laws? bob: absolutely. host: how so? guest: i would drastically reduce the amount of time. serve drinks unheard of. >> well, given the amount of increase in the 1980's, congress and state legislatures around the country in many cases doubled, tripled, quintupled the length of prison time that people would do. for relatively demor drug offenses. it used to be in the federal system, nobody, nobody spent more than neerm this is ashes in other places around the world. the amount of time people 13e7bd in prison for drug offenses can be measured in

days, weeks, months rather than years. but here in the united states some people are serving life sepses for marijuana possession tove people are routinely sentenced to 10, 15 yearsñr for relatively minor drug crimes. this is just absolutely you know,inexcuseible given the nature of these offenses. these are public health problems that we should be struggling the deal with through you know making drug treatment more available and counseling for offenders. so i would drastically reduce the tenses, so we can begin to count them in months wrath thearn years. and i think we should also reconsider the legalization of marion. much of the available research today indicates that marion is actually less harmful than alcohol or tobacco, and light

sentences for the mention of to -- it's also had deaf tating to where the drug war has been raised. host: what would you do with the other drugs? guest: well, i have mind set to open up. my concern right now is bringing us back. in time to the way we used to if we were to go back to the forum of drug law enforcement than that we had in the 1970's. let me put it this way. if we were to go back to the what we had before the pot holes to if ewe were going to

go back to the battle days of the 1970's, we would have to release four out of five people who are in prison today. more than a million people sbd by the criminal justice system could potentially to well, the system has bawk in a nebraska overwhelm in order to have a same drug policy. i think we should keep an open mind to drug legalization. host: on the republican line? >> yes. i would like to ask michelle where she was raised. >> well, i was raised all over. [laughter] my family moved around a lot as i was growing up. guest: but i was born in chicago and i have since lived in many place ins california, i lived for a while in washington, d.c. i lived in nashville, tennessee. i've lived in a number of different places in the country. host: dalter town, mastercard,

good morning. eugene on our independent line. guest: good morning. i think this show conveniently levering out a key come foinlt flying to -- the violence associated with inner city drugs uses a lot different from the guy down the street who's maybe selling marion. in -- selling marijuana in white sub you are byya. in my day there was another gang called the hell's angels cracked down on as much as the fomplee i would like your opinion on that. guest: well, i'm glads you raise that had. because i think most people assume that the drug war really is aimed at ruling, you know,

rooting out vie lent drug offenders, bus but as i indicateed the dataal suggest the principal targets of the drug war have not been violent offenders, but rounding up in mass, very low level non-. well, we'll see how that works. guest: when you brarneds them felons, you can virtually guarantee that they will have a very difficult time ever getting work in the legal economy. and as we know, as the data shows, about fotch within three years. so if you're concern do so about violent crime and poor inner city communities as i am. then you should absolute oppose the drug war. because the drug war isn't concerned primpleely with

rooting out foe of po initially when we won the drug war was announced by reagan, there was considerable rance within some law enforcement agencies that were concerned about diverting their resources away from you know serious crimes like murder, rape, robbery, burglary. they were concerned about diverting those resources to the down she it offered cash. you know, these huge cash grants to law enforcement agencies that were willing to boost up foe has been motivated by a kind of generating high volumes of drug arrests. and that that's been the engine. rather than, you know, devoting limited law enforcement resources. to focusing on how to do we

address violent offenders in a system and assure these communities rnt plagued with high levels of violence.ñi violent crime, you should absolutely oppose the drug war and ask your local law enforcement agencies to use our t innovative host: washington, d.c. is next for our guest on the democrats line. good morning. caller: how are you doing? host: fine. go ahead. caller: yes, i would like to say as exfelon that you can get your records exsponged in different states. so maybe we need to start looking at another way for a lot of felons to get their record exspongeaged once they serve their time.

but when i came out i had a lot of white folks to help me out so yotcht this to turn into a black and white issue like for many people but if you're in the federal government taking taxes from you, you should be able to vofmente so as long as you keep tomplese and do everything else. so maybe exfelons should stop paying taxes through the government. until they don't consider them a felon. >> yes. i think you're right. guest: i think you're right that some people have been successful in getting their records exsponged but the data indicates only a tiny fraction of those lableds felons sfosme and the legislation that's pending in some areas around the country that would insfirle

particularly low-level drug offerses. so i think we should look into the possibility of making exspongement more widely available to people who have done time, particularly for drug crime. they can be legally hdp%lll&d%kh

discriminated against. they are bared from public housing for five years and can be discriminated against in active housing. overwhelm thousands of dollars in debt as a result. well, not surprisefully the system creats a closed crirkt of perpetual margin alty of people cycling in and out of prison, often for the rest of their lives. host: is there any effort to change the way to allow someone to get their voting rights back, anything along that snache guest: yes. there's effort ins multi million states around the country to overturn

enfringement laws and in congress there has been some movement in looking at granting felons their bullying rights and the second chance act was recently enacted to provide some funding for training and assistance in re-entry to ease the transition for prisoners from prison life and help find jobs for the few. no matter how much money we devote to job training and assistance for those who have been released from prison, and about 600,000 people are released from prison every year. 600,000. no matter how much money we devote to that, as long as it remains legal to discriminate against these folks and virtually every as perkt of their economic and social life, they will remain trapped in a second-class status.

you know, during the jim crow era, the problem wasn't that black folks couldn't get a job. people had jobs but they were really investigated permanently to john. that's the system in my m respects that we have today. own those lucky enough to get a job on a release from prison find they are forever trapped in a lower category of jobs by virtue of their prison records. host: washington, d.c. next for our guest you're on with michelle zander the author of "the new jim crow." caller: good morning. how are you doing miss alexander? guest: good. caller: in your book, was in chapter in there refering to herbert hoover and how he targeted black folks, especially like the panther party and how that, you know, equates to today? guest: yes, you're absolutely

right in that there's very interesting history as the f did you over herbert hoover especially the >> but no, i don't spend that much time discussing that chapter in our racial history. host: how long did it take you to write around how much help did you get to it and what's been the response? guest: well, it took me a while to write. took me about four years to write and challenging because my family was growing at the time. i gave birth to a couple of kids in the process and had a lot of support. from my family, particularly my husband, my mother and my sister. and i've been just tremendously graffed by the response i've received to the book so far. you know, especially from folks who are,ñignp you know, have f

members who are behind bars, who have been newly released and those folks who have been labeled felons, there's just ban tremendous amount of appreciation and gratitude that kind of finally -- that's acknowledge meant. and the suffering they tfl -- those experiences that have happened kind of outside of public view. so i'm very hopeful that groups like all of us are none which is a group of formerly encars rated individuals together for human rights and they will provide data to help make a movement in america. host: one you have is obama the promise and the peril. can you touch on those?

guest: i talk in the book about the fact that barack obama, i think understands that racial profiling is previous lint by law enforcement and that the drug war has had serious consequences for the african-american communities. he's made statements indicating that he is, you know, opposed open and he, himself, has admitted to past drug use. unlike president clinton who claimed well i may have used marijuana once but i didn't inhale. barack obama has been open about his prior drug use, and i would hope he would have a there but for grace of god go i attitude for the millions of folks who are trapped in this permanent second-class status simply because they engaged in

-- the problem is barack obama as also allowed himself to be constrained by the current political environment. and i am concerned that that the moment in history when we have the opportunity, i think to show how important it is for people to be given opportunities to succeed and not be trapped in a permanent second-class status, we can use barack bok as an example. what would have happened in barack obama had been labeled a felon and treated as a common criminal, more likely than not he would be cycling in and out of the drama crowd. ar can american and -- would have challenged their nations if because everyone is so eeg telephone -- but it's my happy

to we can overcome that reluctantens, and really call on barack obama, his administration and all those in congress to dismantle this new system of control. host: on our republican line, patrick from orlando, florida. caller: good morning. guest: good morning caller: you know the truth -- american people can't handle the truth. and i would lose media, paper, television, they don't want tomple they are two for cast vacation. the whole idea is they want to make money off their predecessors they want to privatize theiristic and. most people will not deep at the desk what they are really trying to do and we want to change our lir and i don't know why they talk about our judicial branch and the media don't bring that up at all. i don't know big business or whatever they want to use to

control the minds of our media system, but that's what really influence american people to understand what's going on in america. that's what i have to statement guest: well, thank you, very much for raising the issue of privateization of our prison system. you know, this is an issue i think many americans are unaware of, but many prisons today to on stock exchange, run by wall street. and there are billions of dollars to be made running these prisons for profit. and you know, this, the privateization of the prison system i think creates all the wrong incentives. it creates incentives for lobbyists to kind of lobby for lengthier sentences, harsher punishments for non-violent and minor crimes.

why? >> to boost profits. so that is very serious problem as the use of labor by american corporations. you know, today, conversations routinely use prison labor to avoid paying a minimum wage. to avoid providing public benefits. but they are also moving jobbeds behind bars. so predominantly black and brown prisoners are often working for little or no pay for american corporations and in a manner that is as reminiscent host::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

>> good morning, everybody. we're here at our beautiful sunny tucson arizona looking out on a great looking audience. of course, everybody joining us at home on c-span groggy having lost one hour of sleep except here in arizona were we don't have daylight savings time.

that is why i am looking at bright eyed and bushy tail so let's day gaulle of the people from the festival it is a two the amazing event here in teeeighteen starting out to become a premier book festival in the country. of course, the great part of what is going on here in arizona. let's give them a big round of applause. [applause] . .

[applause] he is a truly great historic figure and anything perhaps an interesting bookend. i think today's conversation about the american military and the differences in the military. doug stanton is a master storyteller. yesterday career of bringing people to places all over the world, a writer whose words on travel and adventure and entertainment stories. in his own book about the world war ii. has done things like playing basketball with george clooney for a story or taking act and tips from harrison ford. and of course his boat they were here to talk about is "horse soldiers," about the