interviews. and i am in the movie which is the companion to that book. elliot sap for that interview as well. peters book is a much bigger bucks and mine and does not cover the 17 play year months but 50 years. you'll be reading interviews of eliot high-school girlfriend and the women he went out with and college and you'll hear a lot about prostitutes. and lot of other stuff of things outside. . .

was a witness to all of this and i hope i'm remembered as the

person who told the truth about this to the benefit of understanding in the state of new york and who looked at himself with the same kind of, you know, harshness as he looked at everyone else. thanks a lot. [applause] lee constantine is a former senior adviser and mentor to the former governor eliot spitzer. for more information, visit with lloydconstantine.com.

in his book, "on the trail of the d.c. sniper," george mason university dena danjac censer reports that fewer and generated by the local washington news media turned the d.c. sniper case into a national issue. borders books and music in virginia coasts this 45 minute talk. >> i'm going to give you a little snipp from the book and leave lots of time for questions. if you want to sit there are three seats up there. it's not going to be as entertaining as not sitting down. [laughter] after a long road through personal and professional setbacks, john mohammed accompanied by lee malveaux arrived in montgomery county maryland and early october, 2002.

having already killed five people and wounded several others in a month-long arc of robbery and revenge from washington state through the southwest and the south that included interludes in maryland the to snipers begin the rampage the withdrawal worldwide attention with an air and shot through a michaels craft store on october 2nd, 2002. later that day they would kill their first person and the next day five more. nearly all in the confines of montgomery county maryland. over the next three weeks for more murders and three unsuccessful attempts to place with woundings mainly in virginia between d.c. and richmond. but concluding back in montgomery county mohammed and malveaux would be captured in the maryland prescott some 50 miles northwest of d.c. in during the manhunt. but my book does not, calvo story although there is a

chapter to orient people. but what it does is take a look at the newspaper men and women who cover it and there were more newspaper men and women than there actually were police and the trust deed to a task force trying to track these men down. the media to thousand strong turned down an inexhaustible supply of words, images and sounds to explain what was occurring. in an official way to address this explosion is to begin with a continuous coverage available on tv. studying the broadcasts of two hours or more of breaking news allows an excellent but not for the typical vintage in to understanding in general with the press tried to do. most other coverage had minutes or hours or even days between the appearance of news material. but continuous coverage or wall-to-wall as the journalists like to cover created a plot and took the viewer into some kind of a chronological in tents, a

logical time. literally you felt time pass. it's really visceral watching the elements of continuous coverage. chronology gives way to the sentiment or feelings. this coverage was donner and redone eight times in the 23 days of the event from the very first day to the very last day. and so what i want to do is take a look at this continuous coverage and then of course afterwards we can talk about other elements of the coverage as you wish. some of the coverage ran for 12 hours straight but always the was the basic structure. the nation's came on the air with a loud fanfare heralding important and significant developments in the sniper case. the logic rick healey on a eulogy of the initial announcement was that something important had happened. but by continuing to live

broadcast the work in thawing something else that broker. at least there would be new information. and on the whole, this never was realized except in the duralast case. new information was scarce because of the nature of the shootings there was little with one cadet to really say about what had occurred. you could see the victim had no idea what was going on on the other side of the world. ballistics evidence took a long time for process. the police were very tight-lipped and good images reva difficult to obtain because there was really no action and because the shootings were long distance and the police kept pushing the police line further and further out so that you could see less and less. in some scenes reporter's rented rooms in hotels overlooking the site so they could get a better view than was available. consequently, news outlets have little to go on and tended to recycle what they have over the hours.

new material trickled in and replace older information so that after several hours changes would occur but this is a long time coming. indeed the broadcast intended not to end but simply to fade out. as steve howard and vice president to the news of the local abc said the station stayed on to what some no prospect of new development that with a forced back to every quickly. and it is trickled out in the end. in short, these broadcasts -- somebody over there. in short, these broadcasts were generally everybody sitting here calling. [laughter] and short these broadcasts were very demoralizing efforts at the end it always ends except one time badly.

i want to do one of these cases and so intensities of that you get a sense of what it is light and it's the october 7th shooting of a junior high school student in maryland out into the east of d.c.. there had already been the six murders on october 2nd and october 3rd and the wounding on october 4th. now, this incident builds on all those shootings but in addition another factor contributed to the anxiety that was felt. charles bruce montgomery county police chief had reassured the public the preceding friday. now the seventh is a monday. the preceding friday asserting the schools were safe. many but later believe this insurance was a red flag and in fact to the snipers. here is a fairly intense -- this is what i will read to get the elements right. you will see how it develops.

at 8:09, he arrived at the junior high and was shot down by the shooter's just on the north of the school. the nurse was severely wounded but fortunately his and saw the attack and understood what was the matter, got him in the car and drove him immediately to one of those intro medical facilities and helicoptered first one facility and children's hospital in d.c.. principal heard the shot, this was before anyone was coming and ran outside and saw a car zooming off so he and no one else knew much. nonetheless of course the was the clatter on the police van and right away the local channels knew that something was going on. about 8:45 -- 30 minutes plus leader -- coverage began to read in the first 45 minutes the stations scrambled to get the reporters and to position.

the local abc channel was the first to move to substantial coverage and relied upon its correspondents covering the police in rockville which is a long way, 50, 60 miles away. however, it was 926, 40 minutes later before anyone got to the benjamin task junior high from abc. and presently the nbc affiliate was a dominant player in the local news then and still now on tv did have live shots right away. they had a helicopter and 8:55, and they were using their task force reporter at the same time as the head of the live shots. they didn't have anyone on the ground and in fact the nbc channel did finally have some on the scene of 9:29 which was moments after the abc channel.

fox also had a helicopter at 8:53, just a little bit before nbc but really no one gets on the ground for the local channels on to almost 9:00 and the last to show what is cbs which has more experienced team from a local cbs is a more experienced team but they don't even have a shot at 9:15. the reporter arrives and is pulling in his reporting. before all of the channels are up, so it took them from 8:09 to 8:00 to get them going in another 45 minutes or 50 minutes to show up with someone on the scene. in the meantime, anchors provided the center of the

broadcast. the office breaking news idea but they didn't have any news. so what they did was and what they would do in every case is moving from a source to source. reporters, interviews, officials come on and off camera whatever they could get always coming back to the anchor. all this produced a staccato that actually did increase your intensity but mainly in sidey because no news was forthcoming and was jumping around but it's hitting a choice spot in every place. anchors are trained to speak in a major role in calming tones but in this particular case it was counteracted by the medium itself. the anchors are kind of left on their own to speculate about stuff and i don't think that helps very much either.

in other words the basic idea what was supposed to work was undermined by the lack of information that they had gone on the air. one particular channel communicated in the direct way. cbs local with a veteran newsman mike buchanan convinced directly considerable anguish. through his body language in part he was adjusting his tie and holding his head and generally you could see how upset he was and he expressed this upset very directly that the community had already been through so much with 9/11 and anthrax and how could the community take any more so the structure and buchanan made it more upsetting and he was concerned. when he interviewed a police spokesperson who was giving available the information he

asked, quote basically corporal and aggressive tone you do not have any lookout for anyone under suspicion. i mean, this wasn't exactly reassuring that he's asking this question and he's getting no, we don't. his on-site reporter, gary, added with his voice seeming to crack the news that there was almost a serial exodus that was occurring from the junior high school. regardless of the school policy which asked the parents to wait and let's do this in an orderly way of these parents began to rise and take their kids home. there was a stream of kids and showing this now one camera a stream of parents coming in and historical kids coming out an apparent sign sure were not -- well i know they were not exactly calling themselves. but as if that were enough something big happened which i think simulated in a lot is

anxiety. at 9:25 fox announced six or seven police cars sped away at high speed from benjamin tasker unconfirmed reports stated they were responding to a second shooting. viewers watched from the helicopter perspective the high speed deployment of a police convoy about seven cars and proceeded to a wal-mart a few minutes away. at 9:30 fox could report the customers were entering and leaving the store and though ambulances were there their sirens were not on. because those in the media were on edge the issue had been overstated and would continue. now the nbc affiliate 9:35 concluded nothing was occurring and the cbs channel also at 9:38 said nothing is happening. it stirred people of but to show you how things could actually

spin out of control and the most basic things i have ever seen on television i was seeing it much later abc underlined its ypsilanti for the washers. at 9:31, brad adel on the ground with the benjamin tester noted the report of another shooting. four minutes later the anchor confirmed now to shootings occurred. remember this is nine thanks 35 and already at 9:30 cox said no but watching abc this is what you got. mine:40 to the station put up the map of the shootings that had little x's, one at benjamin tasker and one at the wal-mart showing the second shooting. of anchor recap with a quite ominous tone spreading like three days ago. finally, five minutes later the second shooting was discredited but not before the coverage had ripped up everyone's blood pressure. that's for sure. however, it's not as though the

regular coverage, the best of it wasn't anxiety producing it up. following the wal-mart incident reporting seem to have even fewer kathy ghats and hesitation and much greater focus on scenes that produce concern. one of the main themes of the reporting for the next half-hour until 10:00 were children at benjamin tasker. various chemicals produced parents and offspring stringing out of the building to all appearances this seemed to be fleeing and flight. reporters conducted interviews with to the five parents and children with the latter shaken and grateful to be going home. in the one nbc interviewed the child said he was happy dad came to get him. his father added got and the country will prevail. the police were doing all they could. yes it is a little confidence that it is not exactly -- it is a very stressful reporting. i am not suggesting by the way that it wasn't a stressful

period. i'm suggesting the foot was full down on the accelerator pedal, and we can talk about my judgment on these questions in just a bit. this confidence in fact was little in evidence as other reporters mentioned how very little the police had to go on and how this event created great fear and concern. it might be panic to the pessimistic view of this chase were also convicted holistically and confirmed to be linked to the sniper the police the even more deeply worried. according to the cannon even the search for the white box truck the focus of the police attention would be futile. at abc, brad bell noted false alarms like wal-mart indicated to the tension and the response to the question by the anchor about whether the police had any evidence bell replied no one was saying anything, all similar to the prior year shootings. will the broadcast continued exactly the same way all the way

to the evening news at 5:00. no more information, lots of anxiety to really let me give a quick wrap up of all eight of them put together. if you took all eight of these continuous coverage of events starting in october winding through the wounding of iran brown, what you'd find at first was basically confusion and disorganization. television covered the victim's, the neighborhoods and the police. there wasn't much order to it. the dragnets mounted providing fodder for television but the story became more police story in the next few incidents. while at first the networks had been critical of the police, the great activity that followed in the middle weeks countered the pessimism generated by not locating the perpetrators

because they couldn't locate the perpetrators. however, over time towards the end of the last week when the police couldn't find anyone write off the bat right from the beginning coverage was negative, suspicious. in fact one particular case you may remember when they had a siege at the richmond gas station very late in the day when they arrested two guys who had absolutely nothing to do with it and this proved -- this set off the journalists on a very negative tone about how desperate the holding had become. indeed by this point all the channels dealt to the efficacy of the drug that. in contrast, finally, the cat during in the end of the sniper's reena produced a police story with a happy ending. according to the veteran reporter pattern may be found another big stories. information, explanations,

investigation, recrimination. while the sniper story didn't follow in this order, it clearly contained all of the elements and added to its own finally released. the ultimate lesson of the continuous coverage was a morality play. evildoers brought to justice. in a nation continued to the war gunter described in just those terms this event could be understood and applauded. but in the short term and on a daily level the failure to capture the snipers and the uncertainty that is described in this coverage predate more fear and that, to a certain extent, is where i have taken this book which is to say thevh& overall thesis is to say that the press is reasonable to be anxious. it's reasonable to be upset. in my view in the way the press tended on the far side rather

than down the middle or where it might have gone and i am willing to discuss this more with you and thank you for listening to this extraordinarily compressed effort to try to give you a sense of the book. thank you. [applause] >> you talked about the television coverage and of course they are doing that in a hurry curry right now. could you compare how the local newspapers covered this? >> i would be glad to. well, and essentially the local newspapers covered this jury similar with two important exceptions. essentially the "washington post" and "the washington times" did a different gender than the "baltimore sun" or the dispatch and other smaller papers in the area.

"the washington post" yes, it did sound more or less the same but the "washington post" covered the story with extraordinarily intensity. extraordinary focus. so in addition to covering the crime story in the same way i just described the television the covered and another to become number of items, the funeral of the victims' and uncovering the funerals of the victim's, the language of the obituaries and the language of death is not ever -- it is seldom critical unless you're talking about a big public figure, and in this case the victims were made heroes and in a sense it will start a sense of community and a kind of just position to the other stuff that was negative so there were many elements that mitigated against the more fearful. interestingly in my entire but i think was the waves of "the

washington times" after starting off like the rest of the press within three or four days of its beginning coverage became very, very focused on getting risk assessments on how risky was this and one of my favorite contrasting stories is both the times and the post cover restaurant week those of you who live in the area know that restaurant week is a fixture of d.c. and the restaurant because nobody's there and the "the washington times" covered the act that he should gnd in my mind i'm only can speculate about why the difference, why the times were so different was that the times was more in the past tense because right now it is not what it was but back then people was substantial circulation but it saw itself at

least i would argue as a national paper for conservative point of view more than a local papers of its metro section was quite anemic measured by the pages, the number of pages, the metro section was smaller and coverage was less and so they were going to have a particular attack and in my mind as you can tell it is not an unreasonable attack. their approach was in fact to emphasize let's figure out what is the risk here that we are facing. so yes, those two papers were different but i think opposed was still on the fear side and the "washington post" were the only ones who ran the story basically providing the evidence that more people died from accidents in the same per go in the metropolitan area than from being shot. i don't want -- i certainly don't want to be on camera saying it is no big deal. it is a very big deal.

but the times covered was very much different than the rest. >> [inaudible] -- especially montgomery county schools to contrast with the journalists did? and you said they were much more reasonable, they were much more. but it is because they had something to do? the reports had nothing to do except get everybody is historical. but the system had to do things and do you think that kept them called for was something in terms of being different about the school system? >> well i mean, they both had something to do i think. there is an intrinsic difference. the school -- i studied the three big school systems that rang the washington metropolitan area that had almost 500,000 students and tens of thousands of employees and hundreds of thousands of parents and relatives associated with the

system so it was an effort to understand what another social organization, however social organization understood the event. and when you look at it, the schools tended to be scared, nervous, anxious, worried somebody would be shot. for the less they were in the coping mechanism department. and mauney view is that papers did what they did for reasons we haven't yet discussed yet because of their how they perceive their social function and commercial necessities and the schools did something very, very different. they were coping. i like to tell this story that's in the book about the principal of the claim. people were nervous of course they were. any be those of you that no mclean high school which was in virginia in the -- will basically across from montgomery county. to get their the main way you

get there is to go down this road and make a left-hand turn were right hand turn into the school and that produces a gigantic traffic jam when school begins and the of police officer in the middle district directing traffic and of course the traffic was at least twice, three times usual because people were not letting their kids go on the bus. they were driving their kids. everybody was trying to drive in their so the principal was worried about this, so if you're scared to you do this, the principle comes of standing next of the policemen to direct traffic and the policeman says what are you doing out here? cutting the risk factor by half. [laughter] so it was humor but it was still humor and i think the schools were motivated fundamentally differently because of the risk. >> we were all who lived here of

the time scared. it was frightening to pump gas for the atm. when did you get the idea that he would investigate this? and what can't you, was a newspaper, the tv, the rest of these guys? >> having a remote control was part of it. at the time we were probably less fearful than we actually should have been. our son was running cross-country and we figured a moving target, and run if he wants to. and so, you know, basically from the very beginning i think i saw that yes there was a risk but i didn't -- i don't like to be beaten by their risk pacelli also be i should and i think i was less cautious may be that i should have been. but i did think that as i was

watching the press i was waiting on somebody besides the "the washington times" which worked on in retrospect because i was reading a little lie was mainly not doing the research until later so i was mainly watching tv across the spectrum thinking surely somebody will say what the risk factor is. somebody will at least point that out but not hearing that i was kind of attuned to it and i felt this way for a long time. i wanted to write about television for a long time and i felt this hypothesis was a reasonable one to pursue. what was the slant of the press. if you really took a good look at what was it? i am a huge as i think you know i am a huge fan of the press and the book goes out of its way actually to dispute the notion

that the press is politically motivated. it goes out of its way to say that because that is the general drift of the literature. the general rule drift of the literature is what is wrong with the press. they are liberals and i have no doubt they are actually liberals but i do think that the press makes every attempt, like everybody else in other professions to provide their own standards i think the press trice, i'm not talking about opinions. of course they try to tell their opinions but the people who are journalists try to push that out but i did think this was something worth pointing out and i still think what is the most important thing about this book is to suggest to the working press the need to be more cautious. i think you can find the same kind of what i would say amping out of the swine flu, the financial crisis there's a tendency to dampen up the rest and i am anxious in a subtle way. i am totally opposed to

censorship. but i do -- i'm a professor and i believe in the power of rhetoric and arguing and this is my little chip on that. i appreciate the question. very good to get to explain myself a little >> given the changing role of facebook and ritter and how that plays today can you speculate whether that would be have contributed to the fear factor possibly allow people to feel a better sense of security knowing that some of the debate could them might have been captured as they were occurring. >> number one, the book couldn't be done now because he would have to account for the internet and twitter and facebook and it

would overwhelm anybody. i don't know how you do it. in 2002, there was a social networking and there were blogs but about 98% of what was said on the subject on the blogs was a repeat. they would take an article and i was already reading the articles, so it wasn't anything to do but again speaking as an old fogey i am truly concerned about the unfettered and an edited and uncontrolled social networking which can be for good or for ill. on the other side i have to say i was really delighted that the pulitzer awards went have any way to an internet site which suggests there might grow in the internet some serious journalism with serious standards being applied of control.

but i do think that we have reached a point where if you want detention -- mary jane, you've probably been in better position to say the and i, if you want attention one of the best ways to do is shout really loud and i'm concerned shopping drowns out civil discourse. this is a great example of civil discourse. you can see your opinion, i can see mine and we are not going to get mad at each other and i feel that a lot of social networking is at the highest visible level possible. but i don't think i could have on the book because to give you some idea just watching an hour of television those who try to watch an hour of television and clock the images, the words and the overall impact takes three, four, five hours of watching and

taking notes. there's no point just watching it, you've got to take notes and it's incredibly difficult to do and you can imagine following a blog with all of those -- just utter impossibility so maybe i've written the last thing on the history of the media that sexual comprehensive. it might not be possible to look at it all in the future. yes? >> [inaudible] -- be any interest in what you have set out here by people who are actually in the media. >> do i expect that would be interesting to anyone in the media? [laughter] i think they will probably all be anything like chairman spoke they will all have it. but what censer say. [laughter] i am really hoping so.

but the one saying i would say about the media is that they have daily jobs. every day there's another deadline. of free day there's several deadlines. it's hard to get your feet under you and read a book and think about it. it's so different than the world of the academics where that is what we actually do. we have time to gather ourselves. so i hope they will. but there are some people who've lived and worked in the media. they are probably -- in this audience -- they're probably in the better position to say than i am but i hope like -- the sing has been reviewed and a lot of places where you can get a little of it in a hurry so maybe it will be discussed. but you know it's hard to cover anything that's written. >> which is why i asked the question i didn't know if anybody had called you into this

is interesting for people would find it interesting that people in the media. >> no, not yet. i was blocked last week by somebody very in touch with the media. so perhaps. and she really got in the sense that it's four paragraphs long. she really got -- i have only four paragraphs to say yet what i would say to the media. so you never know. >> this move towards reality tv and what you're pointing out here in terms of the narrative and the perhaps fictional station or not of these events. do you see historic the change and tv in terms of a relationship between fiction and

reality moving along or has always been bleeding into one another? >> that is an interesting question. there is no doubt if you take a long enough time period the early mass media was heavily driven by a fictional accounts. papers are basically in the elite media fairly late on till you get to the industrial period. they are expensive only the elite read them and can be tough even to read them as a historian. they can be dense. but the papers are beginning to reduce to a in large audience and to attract the audience let's just say the papers which really for commercial or

narrowly partisan in nature began to develop a wide range of things they can write about and some of those are just barely for word something completely fictional but in a factual place, so it has more moment. i think that and then reach an apotheosis in the yellow press in some ways of the turn-of-the-century but what i like to call "the new york times" moment of the early 20th century where "the new york times" notion of a sober journalism all of the news that is fit to print moments filtrated the press slowly over the course of the first half of the 20th century and the mass media became much more reliably telling the truth as they saw it

any way. i'm generalizing wildly of course. but what i would say is if there has been a change there might have been a retreat from that because that kind of super journalism is getting pushed pretty hard by first i don't think retial -- i don't think i would say radio did that to push it also the most famous case the war of the world's which orson welles was broadcasting people to get as the truth and there were all sorts of explosions. i don't mean explosions but people running out in the street singing the end is coming but generally it is the arrival of tv and a rival cable and social networking all of which undermine to the certain extent what i call "the new york times" moment across the political spectrum. i am not talking about politics. i'm talking about just an incredible intensity and the production of so much news by

journalists on the scene. that is something that really does -- that is a big change where you have your own and journalists there to the reporting. that is a huge commitment to fact. i don't know if that >> the book seems to be with the media can learn from this evin. what can the school system's learn from this and why isn't that just as sexy to everyone? >> really good point. first i have to see if there is a hero of the book is jerry if you are out there watching. he's the superintendent of schools of montgomery county. i think -- i used to say if i ever ran a large, complex organization i would try to model myself after him. it turns out i run a medium sized complex organization. it's really hard to do.

what he did a -- he is the most fact based planning i've ever seen. he had a -- his division heads, division chiefs botts in their seat at 6 a.m. every morning of the crisis. transportation, the psychological services, the people running of the buses getting the report and they are making policy based on gathering tons and tons of the commission. then the other side of the unbelievable transparency. unbelievable ability to get the decisions out with an explanation to the parents, teachers and other auxiliaries who need to know and i was very lucky because montgomery county actually prince william and fairfax county is the other part of that circle. they did almost the same stuff. but i don't think it was as

rigorously than that it may have been. the reason i'm so convinced about montgomery county is duquette unbelievable records which he let me use so yet seen the warning reports and the various reports that went into those meetings they had. i've seen the messages they send out and i've seen blogs of their e-mail and voice mail. it was incredible material i really hope they will deposit it in a proper library just in their own files so that it will be retained in to the future as a remarkable thing. suggest there's a lot to be learned but it is a war novel by anyone running a large complex organization. the most important thing is to have -- mcgeorge not on the information. and he was able to keep in front -- the was a very vocal part of the parenting community there was difficult. even though they were trying to

cope with the situation and get the kids to have as normal the school day as they could the sports parents were anxious to get their kids back on the field especially this is happening in football season everybody is trimming their kids of getting a scholarship someplace and football is being cancelled and you might remember it might have been a good idea by the superintendent but it backfired tremendously that they sent the team out into southern virginia to play games away from the area. that was his response and one team eight that the ponder rosa where the next to the last victim was wounded and that canceled that immediately. there were no more games out in southern virginia. but we avoided those areas but still trying to do a lot of the same things. i hope that helps. that is as specific as i can

make. i think we of time for a couple more. >> from the standpoint of covering the story obviously it was something that needed to be done. from looking at the broadcast media perspective where you have a lot of managers, editors, people like that's been around as rim's watching tv and they all seem piquancy what they are covering. do you see them going on covering the story and reacting to one another creating a feeding frenzy? it's really something that theoretically should be in the book but it's not in the book. it's the thing most often asked. do they feed on each other, do they built on the each other for sure. here's what i experienced when i taught to journalist interviewed about 75 journalists. i would say why did you write so and so and they would say i wrote what? in the meantime the had written -- it was on the eight months

later they had written 200 more stories and they don't remember. they can't tell you what they were doing. i was talking to joe wan, a metro editor, very smart and capable. now we talked about, we watched tv. can you give me an example? no. it's not that there wasn't an example it's just the journalists in the room, several can tell me it is a big rush of defense. it's difficult to remember. after the first interview i took the entire corpus of with that person had written or said. if the tv was scheduled with closed captioning so i had a script so i had in front of me you said this, you wrote this and i started taking note with me so i could turn it around and shouted across the table so they could actually know what the city and many times they would then remember but if i just said what did you say about so and so it was a dead end.

but this is a good question and it's deserving a lot more time and effort than i gave it. it was kind of a dead end for me and i didn't pursue it as well as i should have. >> [inaudible] >> anything else? [inaudible] >> all set? >> i think so. >> thank you. [applause] jack censer is george mason university team at college of humanities and social sciences. he is the co-author of liberty, equality, fraternity exploring the french revolution. for more information, visit gmu.edu.

we are here at west virginia university speaking with dr. jerald pops about his latest book, ethical leadership in turbulent times modeling the public career of george marshall. how would george marshall define leadership? >> george marshall would probably do it rather than be financed. he was a man of action. but he would certainly tell you that the essence of leadership is finding good people and giving them as much room to operate as possible and freeing himself to think about the long term and think about the future and what to do next looking down the road. >> what role does ethics play on the leadership? >> i think it plays a large role. the leadership literature is all over the watch. most of the business leadership

for instance takes the view that efficiency and planning is at the base of it however in the public sector there is a stronger strain of ethics and our belief system so martial appeal to me because he was a sterling character. he was a man of great virtue and here he was one of the most successful administrators in the history of the country probably the most successful of washington and he must have done something right so it struck me he was a great subject to look at ethical leadership because here was a man who was extremely ethical on one hand and perhaps the most successful public administrator we've ever produced. >> you think he's one of the most successful leaders since george washington. what are some of the examples

you can give that people can learn from that? >> okay he happened to manage world war ii. roosevelt called him the organizer of victory in world war ii. truman called him the greatest american at the age. he developed and lead something like 84 generals and world war ii. he redesigned army education, army officer training in the 1930's and then produced from georgia from the infantry school most of the great generals of world war ii and then he also identified and brought eisenhower into the fold and he didn't raise mcarthur said tuesday that he got him out in 1942 and said he was also

overseeing the character and identified pac-10 as a great leader so martin was sort of the godfather of the forces of world war ii. and in addition to that almost everybody has heard of the marshall plan and this was 1947 when he became secretary of state. first he was the champion of the war and then after world war ii he became the first ambassador to china and tried to work out a case between shanghai and then secretary of state and as secretary of state he basically hatched in design and sold to the congress the marshall plan which have a lot to do with the prosperity of the western europe from that time on. he was also involved in the

berlin blockade and creation of nato and he became very ill and after he recovered he was appointed as president of the american red cross of all things. and he was highly successful. he rebuilt the american red cross. the experience a lot of -- experience a lot of damage and loss of reputation and managed to resuscitate them and the currie and war broke out and he became secretary of defense truman brought him up and by this time he was a pretty old man. so after one year in defense and the last public act was that he finally consented to truman's desire to remove douglas macarthur from the party's command and marshall oversaw that and testified to congress

and develop the case for mcarthur's removal and resigned from the third time. >> one of the people who wrote a review [inaudible] if it is ethical leadership. who do you hope will read the book and what you hope they take from it? >> and the wall of the public leaders will read it of course. i think every professor -- everybody will read the book. my main target to read the book are the young students that had in mind public service careers. the men and women who wish to become not only public administrators but not for profits and will tell you ethical at fenestration in private sector as well. those are the people i really want to read the book and so they can model the behavior of a great ethical leader like

marshall. speaking recently attended the opening of the new leadership in blacksburg. tell about the business. >> that was last weekend was a celebration of marshal's 50th year since his death and his death conference saw a lot of authors and scholars come together as well as practitioners and for reza guidry of commerce was there from the bush administration from first bush at a fenestration and we had 150, 200 people there and all of them came together to talk about marshall's leadership, his management skills, his history and world war ii, his history in world war i which was very

little appreciated. the formative affect that he had on the army and its rebuilding of the 1930's so these were all subjects dealt with. >> we've been speaking with professor pops on his book ethical leadership in turbulent times model when the public career of george marshall. thank you very much. >> thanks for having me. we are here at this year's cpac conference talking with anthony.

tu was your biggest seller is. >> in quebec is on the best-seller list and has been there for several weeks. "it is still selling very well today. glenn is building a mize empire for himself. we have four books now that we publish but we give three more coming in 2010. we are very excited about just how gwen has become a rock star on fox tv and his radio show has grown and grown and he's a terrific writer and a great promoter that come to love his books and support him tremendously. and they also publish mark levin his terrific writer.

we published two books with him now. we have a book coming later this summer that his dad wrote and mark will be supporting it and wrote in and to books on the look on lincoln's gettysburg address so that will be coming this summer as well and the big book we are very excited about going on sale march 9 this coral rolph's book, -- karl's memoir. he's a brilliant strategist and campaign manager. he worked in the bush office as chief of staff and he carries a tremendous amount of respect and were shipping half a million copies we go on sale officially march 9th. >> and any other radio and television personalities? >> absolutely. absolutely. jerry who we published earlier this year big radio stars. we are happy to have him on the

list. trying to think on the top of my head steve more who actually do a lot of radio and tv, they are not radio personalities but if the oliver the media the last couple of weeks with return to prosperity. but recently jerry was a big radio guy that we just launched this year and are pleased with the book. it's a great read called have you seen my country lately. >> and threshold is part of simon and schuster; correct? >> correct. we are part of the simon and schuster printing. we've been in business just over three years now. it's been very, very successful. we've had several number one "new york times" authors. one of them, obamanation in paperback and america for sale but went on sale this past october were on best sellers. >> and you have authors the part of tertial management; correct? >> correct. well, when you say threshold management, really authors that