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tv   Book TV  CSPAN  May 9, 2010 10:00am-11:00am EDT

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50 than i was. and in the end of the maybe 260 or so that i wanted to publish, or 240, we found all but 20 of the people. and were able to gain permission. we were denied permission by, i think, five people out of everyone we contacted. and they all had very good reasons which, of course, we honored. none of them had anything to do with the views of president kennedy. they were all personal issues that i certainly understood. so that's how the book came to be. and it has been a remarkable project for me. there are many, many striking things about the collection. a lot of different things we could conclude from it. but i want to begin by talking a little bit about -- i'm going to read you some letters tonight that will give you a sense of the overall scope of the book.
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the book really begins with letters that talk about november 22nd. and how people heard the news. how they responded to it. were they -- were they were at that moment and how they reacted. and one of the things that is so striking about these letters is the incredible eloquence of these americans who wrote in. ....
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who it. >> it is a long letter. when i came out it with my new haircut adds 11:00 the crowds were already gathering i had overdraw his recession in dallas. the crowd of grew rooftops and awnings were crowded. police cars made constant patrol looking and watching and a police truck called off a car on main street. the crowd was jovial in those of us who shared became like my neighbors. a young girl next to me had a transistor radio and we were able to hear on this are reporting about the wonderful both, his family handshaking and the knicks
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out -- excitement was mounting finally the police turned away all traffic and main street was empty at noon. the police cautioned us to stay on the curb the we could not resist dashing out into the quiet street for a long look to see if the motorcade was approaching. at last it came into view and the first sight had such incredible excitement i don't think i could describe it. the first thing i was able to see at several blocks distance for the red lights of the motorcycle police escort eight flashing lights preceding they were traveling faster than i had expected the police were yelling tuesday backed up from both sides of the st. we've surged out i almost got my toe run over by one of the motorcycles.
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as long as i live i will never forget to kennedy, a tan. that is the first thing and noticed. smiling, handsome, happy. i did not get to see jackie's face because she was waving to her side of the street by her youthful image was unmistakably beautiful her long mahogany colored hair blowing in the wind and the sun which had come now brilliantly caught in the red highlights. are always remember the way it had shown so brightly on the president then they were gone i was shaking as they made my way back to the parking lot that i decided i better stop on the way home and eat a bite of lunch. i turned the radio and the first thing i heard was the president has been shot and
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i thought he had meant to say that the president has been shocked at the size and friendliness of the crowd. all too soon it began and i don't know how i got home. i could not go into my house alone so i went to my neighbors. they were white face and we being the television was on and the announcer said our good, wonderful, useful, pre sident was dead. >> one of my neighbors had attended the but breakfast in fort worth that morning needless to say never did eat lunch or supper i never made a bed or pay the bill until after the funeral i even almost forgot my
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beloved mother had died by november 24th. today is my own birthday and means nothing. i am sick and violently angry and pray for us all. police. the author of this letter is here with us tonight sitting over here. will use the hand? [applause] >> you can imagine when i read that letter as much as we have read and heard of the kennedy assassination this beautiful account was so powerful and moving. when we finally found her it was not easy i think by way of wyoming, montana?
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through her son but we found our way back and i had a wonderful conversation with her and so grateful to have the letter and the book. there were many people who were on the motorcade route route to who wrote him. >> dear mrs. kennedy i know the grief that you bear i a bear that same grief i saw you yesterday. i hope to see you again. i saw mr. kennedy yesterday. i will never see him again. i am very disturbed because i saw him two minutes before the shot was fired. i could not believe it when i heard it over the radio five minutes later. i felt that i was in the days. life has halted in dallas everybody is shocked and
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disturbed my prayers to you comment a sympathetic ear falls and disturbed at dallas resident. tommy smith age 14. he is so little older now and right here. [applause] i wish i could tell you i will introduce everyone of the letter writers to you but many of them have passed away but i have been very grateful to meet people as i travel around too different cities talking about the book. this is an extraordinary letter not from texas big issue an idea how profoundly shocking this event was. >> dear mrs. kennedy may i extend my heartfelt sympathies? i admire your strength and is an inspiration to me the way you have conducted yourself.
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my husband died of a heart attack while sitting at the table drinking a glass of milk friday november 22nd of about the same time your husband and our beloved president was killed. you're listening to the news about your husband when my husband had his attack. his last words were how could anybody have such hate in his heart he could do such a thing to our president? my 16 year-old son came in at that time from school and was with me when he died. he died in not knowing for sure the president was dead. my husband was 46 years old born april 1917. my prayers will be with you in the difficult days ahead i can truly sympathize with you as i am going through the same adjustment of adjusting your life without
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the man you loved by your side. >> it was amazing to see the age range of letter writers in the collection. children as young as a seven years old then i came across this letter. >> dear mrs. kennedy and want to express my sympathy for your great loss and is trying hour of our nation prepare it is with sorrow i have to say that i have seen all four of our presidents assassinated progress celebrated my 99th birthday november 22nd. it certainly was a very sad evening as well as all west virginians but we have learned to love the president as he was so interested in our state the nation has lost a great leader and may god bless you and the children is my prayer.
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>> one thing i do discuss in the book a little bit and what is fascinating to me over the last zero to four hours talking to various people in dallas and hearing their memories and the way and we were talking today why did the stigma get attached to dallas but not to los angeles are meant this necessarily where martin luther king died by yet in dallas there was a feeling among many letter writers let they themselves were ashamed and felt very strongly the people in dallas would be blamed. one letter from a woman predicted most persons outside the state will bitterly feel it could have only happened in texas.
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but in fact,, that feeling was widely shared with a sense of shame across the nation. and in the strange ways, people tried to get ahold of this event by looking at their own lives, and a variety of factors come a one-man roach i feel in some way i could have been at fault. each night i used to pray for your husband to protect us but last night i stayed out late and went to bed without say my prayers. when i heard this about our great leader i was so sorry i did not pray. i will never do that again. god help me. >> but the sense of acute responsibility that many folks felt comes across very clearly. >> my dear mrs. kennedy i have never written to a congressman or any type of
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statesmen in my third years of living i have never done much of anything except vote toward being an american and/or making this country a better place in which to live. today however my heart is so heavy i feel i must express myself to you and i must go you how very ashamed i am to be in a city of cultural background and colleges and schools and supposedly intelligent people. i wish i could move from this place in this hour progress happen to be downtown and took the time from my work to stand on the street to look at a man and woman i have loved for three years. i am so glad that i did for never in my life have i admired and respected a man more than i did jfk. in my opinion he was one of the most outstanding individuals this country has
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been able to produce. all of this means nothing to you now i am sure of that but my dear lady i was moved to tell you that there are people of us in this terrible city that loves your husband a very much we have cried bitter tears over this day may god forgive those who brought shame to our city and country of like to extend to you, mrs. kennedy into your family the most sincere and heartfelt sorrow felt buy me and my mother and thousands of others. oily wish it were possible for a humble small person to bring this message is thought of sympathy to you in person. >> there were many letters from young people in the collection, one from the
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youth from kennedy dated november 25. dear mrs. kennedy, there are no words that any language to extend the sympathy we wish you extend to you on the death of your husband, the president we pride ourselves and our state's that such a perverted act would happen here doubles the wave of grief if our hearts. we in this organization however own personal sorrows four behold a seemingly stronger bond to mr. kennedy and others. here in texas, here in our city the streets flow with years. the only sound heard is the act of silence ripple vocationally by a single dell but tolls the solemn requiem. our prayers are with
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you, your small children coming the other members of your family and the deepest hope that somewhere in your private hard to the you could forgive the twisted mind and texas and for giving us, then nation and for you kennedy johnson. deputy corresponding secretary. >> there are many, many letters i could keep you here all night but you will be relieved to know obviously i have the insatiable appetite for reading these things as i did. one of the amazing letters was written by a young man in the military who was in the honor guard that was very involved in president kennedy's funeral and on
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duty when he got the news they were being called up something big had happened. he wrote a letter to his sister the send this along to mrs. kennedy. >> the last time i saw kennedy close enough to touch was on veterans day 11-- prior to the assassination. he was at the tomb of the unknown soldier perform the 22nd we were out in the cemetery we got back at 2:00 p.m. and robbery were getting off the bus i noticed there were 25 or 30 guys standing around gathered around the radio in new something was wrong so i asked what was going on? one guy turned around and said they said our boy johnny has been shot but i did not believe him. returned in my weapon and went upstairs to get my radio and listened. the word came from headquarters we would be on
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72 our ceremonial alert so we had to get the dress blues ready and standby ready to move. saturday november 23rd november 23rd, the whole battalion went on parade and the commander read the presidential death order to us. it is odd it was pouring down rain and nobody said one word about it or even seemed to notice or the fact we were getting soaked. we were not wearing raincoats you there. suddenly sunday november 24th, we got our orders to move to the capitol building where we will move the late president's body for the people of this nation. i was standing right at the top of the steps where they took the body as the casket came up the steps mrs. kennedy and her two children immediately followed. then came the heads of our government.
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as mrs. kennedy reached the top step she turned and looked over my shoulder to the cameras and hesitated then gave a faint smile as to say, think you, americans, for the feeling and understanding. this may sound silly but i got a lump in my throat after the ceremony, we came back. here is the touching part. it was really cold but people came into the rotunda all night long until 10:00 a.m. money and as cold as it was they waited in line nine and 10 hours waiting in shivering but devoted to seeing their great leader one more time. also people by the thousands were in line sleeping bags along the route of arlington national cemetery where he would travel the next day
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1:00 p.m.. after the ceremony, we went to eat and went to the cemetery and i was posted below the grave side. we waited for about two hours. in all of our sermon a sweet either stand at parade rest or attention but we were standing at grave rassman the colors of the casket came by i was so numb i could not complete our present arms and i could not move per car wish you could have seen and heard of the funeral we heard them coming across the lincoln memorial bridge. those drums between the death march. they were beautiful. i guess that is all except for the people honestly is enough to bring tears to your eyes. we were watching the people walking along than the 70 they just fell on their knees and prayed rights on
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the spot, in the streets, along the sidewalks, everywhere. you should have the people and finally told well over 1 million. the streets were packed 30 or 40 deep and across the bridge 20 deep on both sides. at the cemetery ropes were around the grave 200 feet all the way around 1,000 deep. it is one of the most tragic things that has happened in this country. would you please save this letter for me? it is like a diary than i can remember how i felt and what i did. i think i will read you one more. >> i focused on the first. the book but the second part really talks about how
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americans saw president kennedy there are a lot of letters from poor people, african-americans, e very walk of life discussion of civil rights, the role of the presidency than in the end letters about grief and loss. i will get to those. one of the expressions that blew my mind was this. i thought this letter was so eloquent when i t paragraph i ws staggered. >> dear mrs. kennedy went to extend you and the children my condolences priest to help to mitigate the remembrancer death. we're told that a good key is necessary to enter paradise the president following the guidelines of his church will possess a the key.
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and the president i felt i had known the whole man and it is a rare experience but always eliminating and noble but it cost so much to be if all human being that there are very few who have the am i and mentor the courage to pay the price. the lights of the prison have gone out now in the quiet time i can help but feel that my thoughts and the thoughts of my countrymen will ever reach out to the arlington hillside for sustenance. how far the of the light throws the beam sincerely 85255 federal penitentiary atlanta georgia stephen hanahan. there are many letters in the collection from
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children. i want to end with this one. appropriately from the houston. stated december 6 remember his solemn and determined to look as he sat pondering decision in the cuban
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missile crisis. some day i hope to visit our beautiful white house and see all the wonderful treasures you have collected from presidents in past generations but please leave this one personal treasure of the young president of our generation sell one day that i may run my hand over the wooden arms and borrow for a moment of little of the courage and vigor of this, or useful, 305th president of united states of america. made the lord's birthday and the new year brings convert to a and caroline and little job. respectfully, susan laing. might final point* is to say that the founders of our country thought day
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democracy would worked against all of the ancient philosophers, political analysts of their time to worry that a democracy would the teary into anarchy. they believed the other wise because they thought there was wisdom and virtue in the people and we could trust the greatest decision to be made by the common folk. in what you see in this collection of letters is a passion, sincerity, decency of the american people. across race and religion and political belief and expressing their own heartfelt sentiment very powerfully and very thoughtfully and as sad as all of this is what we can
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take away is at the core of our country the extraordinary resource. thank you so much for coming and your interest in this book. [applause] i am happy to take any questions if i have not exhausted you all. >> where you are reading these letters, was there any break down and cried moments? >> for me? yes. i think i shed a few years. was saddened by the number of letters from children and parents, children who have lost parents.
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of the final section our letters dealing with grief and loss. there were many, many letters from children who have lost parents. one of them said she lost her father and her grandfather then j.f. kennedy became her main man now he had died as well. and letters from parents who have lost children. people who had experience these profound losses there is one guy who it is very short and he says i to have experienced a terrible loss my little girl drowned. it takes more courage to live than to die. he was talking about the struggles to go forward.
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i was very touched by the letters they were very moving to me. >> with the cynical nature of our society today the outpouring would be the same or are we morrison a call today? >> i am afraid i think we are. i would not say more cynical. we were older. a lot of us anyway and there is something about this event that made us older. they say that you're not grown up until you lose somebody that you love of. i grew up on november 22nd
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there is a loss of innocence and because of the subsequent violence in our society through the '60s the wars and all the we have experienced a sense, there was terrible violence prior to this says the worst world war and many letters in here from veterans and holocaust survivors. one letter from the holocaust survivors says he saw murders, shootings, hangings , every day and nothing had affected him as profoundly as the death of president kennedy. there's something about this having lived through that i am not sure the generations that did for all those rating heartfelt letters but
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profound shock perhaps yes and no preferred is a long winded answer to say yes been at some sense and in no way am i trying to romanticize the early 1960's it is the age of segregation of terrible violence in this society but at this level the attack on president's it was unthinkable in the ghastly way and the man who was the first television president they felt they knew very intimately and the first family. >> [inaudible] >> the whole book took about
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one year to do but i was working around the clock and became a extremely involved and was up estranged hours and deeply committed once i got going i was very passionate. the hardest thing was finding the letter writers i was right over confident about that. way overconfident. by the end we lost a few letters from people that have said j. common name we just could not find them. we did everything in had people going into apartment buildings and knocking on every door. if anybody knows dorothy smith from dallas let me know i really wanted that letter and i could not get. [laughter] that was very challenging but also incredibly rewarding because when you found the person on the other end, i found somebody
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there was afraid to ring the doorbell. i just wasted for them to come out and now i would hunt down these people all over the country. [laughter] there is a wonderful letter at the end of the book that says mrs. kennedy i know you're getting all of these letters i think you should put them in a book some americans can one day read and understand what the president meant to the country. so i decided i would start with her because she did not give me permission to publish balladur there would not be a book. so i found you're easily she was living in the same house that she lived in in 1963. i am a historian i think i have a letter that you wrote to mrs. jacqueline kennedy in 1963. do you remember right teeing it? she said is that after he
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died? "c.s.i." remember. i said i was looking for permission to publish it and i was completely unprepared and she said will you read me the letter? she was not going to let me publish it and she began crying when she heard her words back. she said no deaths ebert affected me as much as this one when i asked her if i could publish it she said yes i would do anything for him it is interesting some in a letter writers despite all we learn to that he was not the model husband and all of the other things virtually none have changed their view of him over the decades despite everything else
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and i found that quite remarkable >> where there's some letters not from americans and how did the world react? >> this was the international phenomenon there are letters from every corner of the globe many of them are in the language of the country from whence they come. i quickly became convinced the copyright issues i was dealing with four americans americans, finding these folks was way beyond my a capacity and i will do that to somebody way smarter than i was. i thought it would be diluting the project and a way to make it impossible
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for me to complete but they are extremely powerful press corps recently heard from a colleague of mine from university of new hampshire and involved with an exchange program and a danish friend came to said kennedy library and read those from denmark and said not knowing about my book i found these amazing letters at the kennedy library. there from fishermen in tiny villages who are writing to jacqueline kennedy. he was out of describing the phenomenon of the little ordinary people and the outpouring of grief. it is a very rich collection i am sure. hope this inspires other more talented people to go into some of those boxes as
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well. >> [inaudible] >> that is a wonderful question that i have thought about a lot. one of the things that i walked away from, i was very sobered by the number of people who talked wrote the extremism and division of the country that they felt had created the climate that had encouraged someone who was crazy to take the steps to kill the president that was disturbing to me and if you bear with me i will give you a sample of that bright
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actually mark it. by fell to the was pushing my luck. i a marked it partially to show the dallas reaction was the national one. this is an amazing letter. >> dear mrs. kennedy i feel the imus joined the chorus of sympathy showered upon you in regards to your husband he must not creep greatly because that is a job of our country the world may be divided into vast empires and cities split in half and neighbors killing each other but every race color and creed came to give you something that may not be a gift that can be seen but you can feel in your hard.
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all men and more the death of her husband we feel we have paid a part in his murder we may not have been there or have known that you were there but we were all responsible because we did not fight with them with everything he has stood for. we just sat back and watch. we have wasted a great man. we may not realize that falls now, but in time history will write its own story on blood filled pages. we all feel the loss and i am sorry. >> i found these reactions very sobering given our nation today. that was one reaction. the other is that there is a lot of criticism today of all of the talk of hope and change but what does it rarely add up to courts one
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of the last thing legacies that comes through in these letters was the way in which presidential leadership is inspiring hope putting a balance on change and making the american people feel a sense of coherence and the sense that. one's service to the country involves sacrifice. i am not sure that phrase ask not what you can do for your country would go over as well today. the at emphasis on the selflessness, a service, idealism for all of its faults it is clear americans responded very
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powerfully to that and if galvanized self role generations and even if he fell to the moral values that he stressed for the nation they were brought able -- valuable it is very clear on the civil-rights issue where historians are very critical of kennedy but yet some african-americans were so powerfully moved to have a president to say we have to do this because it is right. there is a moral crisis facing the nation. that changed people's lives and how they felt about themselves and it was in powering. that is an element of presidential leadership as well and that is something jfk did very well.
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>> [inaudible] >> i have not to. as you may know the kennedy family does not talk about the assassination. they don't choose to commemorate it in any way. but what i did do was to go to the director of the kennedy library because these documents belong to the american people they were in the archives their open to the researchers and i did not have to ask permission but it seemed it would be the right thing to do to go to the director and tell him that i propose to do this book to take it to the board of the jfk foundation and inform them of the project and no objection was raised.
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>> said the nine. [inaudible] and. >> yes. i did. i thought maybe i was reading more of them buy the end of the whole project i was through thousands of letters. one of the things that came through to me as i did the project was thinking she was 34 years old when this occurred. sitting 6 inches away from her husband went he was killed and came that close to being killed herself record a matter of days went from the first lady to move out of the white house and start a life over with two small children. i have a wonderful interview with her secretary who really did not want to talk to me but was gracious about answering a few questions about the condolence mail.
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i think we should take away what mrs. kennedy herself told the public that she read the letters a as she could bear. in the archives, there are one or two there were answered personally buy mrs. kennedy's secretary and one of them is and extraordinary letter from a little boy whose picture is in the book he sent in a picture of himself in the cub scout uniform and begins september 1962 some mean men killed my daddy in dallas to. he was a soldier. santa claus did not get my letter. i asked him for a bicycle. void you let him know i want a bicycle?
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something to that effect. and i found attached to his lecture on the back of the picture he put his state of birthday letter from mrs. kennedy's secretary says mrs. kennedy appreciates your letter. it was a personal letter. she notes that your birthday is coming up and wishes you a very healthy birthday. but really, other than that to that is all we really have to go on. anything else? thanyou very much for your time and your patience. [applause]
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>> this program may not contain language some viewers may find objectionable. >> i am grateful for this invitation and grateful for the opportunity to have a conversation and to hear your thoughts. grateful to see young men and women who can reflect upon how these issues come to the issues that the young people talk about. of like to think c-span for
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being here and my colleague christina who has been wonderful. i come to this from the perspective of a doctor and i appreciate you reading those words. that is where i ended up an understanding that we could not necessarily discard these young people as six or bad but had to understand what was influencing their lives. and in 1989 i took a job as a primary care doctor at boston city hospital. a municipal hospital. i began as a primary-care doctor. as my friend knows boston city hospital serves mostly the people the african
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american communities. i was astounded by the fact and primary-care i saw very few young men. particularly men of color. but when i walked to the emergency room, orthopedic clinic i saw a lot of young black men most of them injured by violence and most of them thought to be thugs toward drug dealers by the providers taking care of them. but one day i was walking through the stairwell and ran into a colleague of mine. and african-americans surgeon who i knew from my time training and he was frustrated and said i saw you a few weeks ago and he had been shot and almost died. i took him to the operating
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room and we were able to save his life but a few weeks later i am writing in my car and i hear the same young man is dead. there is knowledge we have about the recurring cycle of violence and people who were injured get injured again. we have to do something. i did not know what to do at that time but i did not completely understand the lives of the young people i was interacting with. i have grown up in queens in new york and i had a different perspective, a different perspective than many of the young people i saw and boston. so i began to talk to young people using the method of qualitative research buffeted tape recorder, human subjects baht's sitting opposite these young people while
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sitting in the hospital and hearing their stories and what i learned in that time is wasn't it as simple as my colleagues thought. we somehow thought that young black men did not just get shot, they got themselves shot. it was easy when you saw the endless stream of young people with gunshot wounds to assume toots talk to them as if they had done this to themselves but is also true every day and a newspaper this is true in boston at that time and recently true and philadelphia where i now live but i know it is true in baltimore. we track the bodies and reports on homicides and that is the devastating outcome but if we only count homicides we look at the tip of the iceberg.
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the cdc reports for every homicide there are 94 violent injuries that do not result in death. and we know that young people were injured not only bear the physical scars but emotional and psychological scars that come from violence. we also know that if you take people who were victims of gunshot wounds or the stabbing wounds and follow them for word five years, 45 percent of those people will be shot or stabbed again. something about getting injured points you at risk. one could say these are bad people doing bad things they get shot and they go back out and do those things again and that is the idea but as we talk to these young people we realize there was something more going on.
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two ideas and then engage you in a conversation because i think it does matter how we see these young people and their experience is. of like to talk about the impact of trauma itself. over the past 20 or 30 years there has been an explosion of knowledge in trauma and what we know about violent injury and what can ensue. we know about studies of combat veterans and victims of sexual assault, that the victim's house psychological symptoms after words like posttraumatic stress disorder but even though you may not have the post traumatic stress, you may have depression. some of the symptoms you may see and you may recognize this, it is called hyper
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vision that is the sense you were always in danger sometimes that twitchy jumpy behavior of people who feel unsafe for i mentioned depression but sometimes we see a major hallmark of posttraumatic stress is avoidance. don't want to come out of the house, i go to school or do anything. nightmares, flashbacks are common and young people described alcohol or marijuana as a way to keep the nightmares away. and sabia comet anxiety are signs of post-traumatic stress. one thing that is to give a striking is memory that i saw a young man named david. i met him when he was in a hospital. he was shot in the side. not a life-threatening
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injury but in the same instance where he was shot his cousin was killed and he was his best friend. they had driven to the project's to visit some friends and raw they were sitting in the car somebody walked up and fired he believes it was mistaken identity but i ask him if he would simply describe what had happened to and in the way i could get a story that was different from what the newspapers would report. he said. >> all rights it was an incident where me and my cousin went to a housing development. i wind up getting shot and my cousin winds up getting killed. he paused. searching the floor with his eyes and there is no where to go from there with that one. he did not want to talk anymore but i said can you tell me a little bit more?
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>> he had come and picked me up from my house and we were on our way to our grandmothers we were going to wash clothes and he was going to pick me up but then we left the house as i had to get change week ended up going to the stop and shop that we wound up hooking up with some friends to go see some girls in the projects and as soon as we got there we wound up getting shot. he paused again and looked at me. that is about as much as i want to say about that. can you say anything about what happened after that? >> i was not thinking too much when i was getting shot but afterwards i saw my cousin laying on the ground agassi must have gotten out of the car at some point* and ran but i did not see it have been. when i seen him on their
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ground i had to run to him to see if he was alright by noticed the liquid was coming from his pants so it was 10 asperger i cannot describe how it felt but very unpleasant. is a very unpleasant feeling. then they rolled him over and i see in his eyes that were looking straight up and classy and right then i was hoping he would be all right. then the police officers were badgering me and talking tell us who did you know, who did it. they was all yelling at me and i was on the stretcher and they're asking me questions i could not answer. it was very hard. i was mad but it was just difficult until i got to the hospital. when i got to the hospital they started to work on me the only thing i was thinking about was my cousin to see how he was doing than a couple of hours went by
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then my mother and father came then my sisters and brother and told me he had passed away and i started to cry. his pain was not apparent in his voice or in his eyes but i felt his emotion and i paused. then they took me up to the hospital room it was all over the news sent the police detectives came in to ask a bunch of questions. the newspaper was calling me in the room and i was getting a lot of attention i did not want. that is as far as it went. the truth is that what happens when a young person gets shot, the story is critically important for us to understand fitch from a begins long before they get to the hospital. someone lost a very

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