the best educated group of immigrants coming to the united states today, the african immigrants. better educated than the asian, south asias, europeans, anybody, the best educated group. they don't come with a lot of money but come with a lot of education, intact families, educational aspirations and they're going to have a big impact in years to come. as the other component of emergent group was biracial americans. there there were laws outlawing misogeny.

strom thurmon called it misogyny iation, and that was in the 60s and 70s, and a time when social barriers between white people and black people were tumbling, and i know in the generation of my sons, who are 27 and 20, they have tumbled. it's just not there or they don't feel it's there they've grown up in integrated settings. they have gone to schools where diversity has been taught as a good thing, and so there's a growing number of biracial americans, and it is hard to give specific numbers. what interests me is something that president obama, who was one of these groups -- with this group -- he belonged to several of these groups, actually. one of the things he said -- if you recall his race speech during the campaign in

philadelphia, and he said something -- i'm paraphrasing here -- this is during the first reverend wright eruption. the said, could i no more disown the reverend wright than i could disown my own mother. he eventually did disown the reverend wright. but the point about his grandmother i found interesting because he was saying he has a somewhat different emotional relationship to white america than i do, than with two african-american parents, having grownup the south at a time when there was very much a kind of sense -- you know, at it not that i go around thinking us versus them anymore, but that

was -- that's how i was raised, and his -- the way he was raised and the way he has to think of himself -- because it is him -- is somewhat different. so those are the four groups, main stream, abandoned, transsend transcend dent and emergent. >> you talked about gates, but the situation in cambridge brought together the intersection of race and perhaps power and him being in that transsend dent group. it brought it together for him and brought it together for president barack obama, and how the situation was perceived and handled. you did a wonderful job of taking us through that scenario,

through henry louis gate's eyes and president obama0s eyes. can you talk about that? >> we're both journalists so you understand, this context. i loved this incident because it was one in which no one behaved well. everybody behaved badly. and so here you have the situation where, what we think of as the traditional power relationships between black and white, power and status relationships between black and white in this country -- were reversed. you had this rich, famous, arrogant, harvard professor -- to say arrogant harvard professor is a redundancy.

tired, cranky, coming home, his door won't open, jimmies his way into his house, and he feels a certain status about himself, and a certain sense of himself. here you have this working class white police officer, a sergeant who -- a police officer in cambridge, mass, probably makes a good living but doesn't make the living henry louis gates, jr. does, and doesn't wine and dine with presidents and he wasn't on his way back from china, having filmed his latest pbs special. you know. it was a different thing.

so, you have this clash, and what happens? well, skip gates, the powerful person in this encounter, nonetheless goes off, and goes immediately to, you know, you're harassing me because i'm a black man. and acts like an arrogant harvard professor but goes over the top, and officer crowley is being given lip by this uppity black guy who has the nerve to dress him down, and the result is, of those two examples of bad behavior, skip is handcuffed and taken off to jail. i thought that was a fascinating

little vignette of how power relationships can work now -- they don't always work this way -- but they can work now in this country and could not have worked that way in the past. i also thought it was fascinating that when president obama said what he thought and, frankly, what i thought at the time, was a very innocuous thing. the officer had behaved stupidly. he had, after all, arrested the man on his own front porch, having already ascertained he was who he said he was and it was his house. skip gates is this tall and walks with a cane. he wasn't swinging it at the officer. he wasn't in danger or anything like that and there was no threat to public safety. and nonetheless there was thing -- this big outcry when the president said the officer

act stupid he -- stupidly, and then he had to invite them both in for a beer to tamp it down. it was fascinating to me there was such a reaction from so many people. >> the reaction from the country, as i read in your book, because of how they felt certain whites viewed what the president said not as a statement just coming about, well, this is stupid, but almost as a racial identity -- >> as if he were taking sides. >> right. >> and i onceot a -- wrote a column during the election, and i said for president obama to get elected he had to be

perceived as -- i didn't know how true that was at the time. i've seen surveys -- i wish i knew chapter and verse on this but i saw a survey once of republicans, and to me it was a shockingly high number believed that president obama was advocating and instituting policies that specifically favored african-americans over others. and i thought that was bizarre, given that i know for a fact that the white house has taken enormous pains to frame all its policies as race neutral, and it is not possible to go to the

white house and to get -- at least get them to say -- and i think they're being honest -- that that ain't part of their agenda, specifically aimed at african-americans. and that's not -- they decided not to do that. in fact, i think it's in some ways -- it would be easier for a white president to say, you know, gee, we need to do something about this -- about entrenched generational black poverty and dysfunction and here's what we want to do about it. a white president could do that, and president obama can't. and it is well understood at the white house he can't. >> that's very true, because our own lbj absolutely did that. >> he did. >> and with the voting rights

act, and the civil rights act. but talking about this whole disintegration and splintering of the black community, you also hit on the topic of the great migration, and i did not realize that by 1950, close to seven million black people had left the south because of jim crow. but you also talk about two types of racism, north and south. you talk about that in the book. and maybe even a third hybrid. you talk about. could you talk to us a little bit about that. >> well, it's just where i grew up in the south, everybody knew where they stood. okay? there was white sides of town, black sides of town. there was jim crow segregation, which had the force of law. so, there were laws that

segregated public accommodations. in my town, orangeberg, there were stores that black people were supposed to enter through the back door. i had real buck teeth when i was a kid, and went to an orthodontist, who lived in another city, and i remember being cop -- confused. we could never wait in the waiting room. we waited in the doctor's own private office until it was time for our appointment. we weren't allowed to wait with the white patients. and i didn't quite realize what was going on until i got a little older. and so with that -- that was what it was like in the south in the north, it was more subtle. but there was discrimination and there was effective segregation.

sometimes through housing covenants. chicago, for example, and in many neighborhoods there were -- if you don't keep up the house, you sign one of the pieces of paper you signed was -- said you want sell it to a black person or in many cases a jew. so, they didn't want blacks and jews. i guess they didn't think about the possibility that anybody else other than white would existed or would want to buy a house. so, they were different, not only in terms of their formality, but they were different in degree, too. my father grew up -- he was born in rural georgia. as a child, made the great migration. his mother and father had, i guess, a total of six children, and every one was born in a

different city as they made their way north, from -- started actually out west but came through alabama, mississippi, georgia, tennessee, ohio, and my father ended up growing up in an arbor, michigan. it was a pretty liberal college town so he was one of the few -- he died at the age of 92 and one of the few black men of that generation 0 -- who went to an integrate it high school. so there were exceptions. >> we're going to get to some questions, so please get ready to line up. we have only ten minutes left in the session. one quick -- one more quick question. eugene. what are the ramifications of this splintering of black america? >> you know, i think the

ramifications are that one size does not fit all. what frustrated me at the outset was that -- to the extent we talk about black america, we talk about it, i thought, as it might have been 50 years ago. but we weren't talking about it as it is now. and i think, again, we both -- we're both journalists. the way we, i think, see the world is to try to understand it and write about it and to -- because one of my core beliefs is that if you -- how have to see things clearly in order to then try to figure out what to do. if you're talking about -- if you're not seeing things clearly, you're not going to see what needs to be done, and so i thought that there has to be --

you know, an acknowledgment, number one -- there are 40 million roughly african-americans. it seemed to me there has to be an acknowledgment that there are quite a few african-americans who are doing well. that not to say that racism has disappeared. it has not disappeared. there's lots of indications we see, lots of studies, you know, every year, somebody sends a white couple and a black couple with the same identical credit scores and income to a mortgage broker and the black couple gets a worse deal. that's a kind of standard study that gets repeated all the time. so at it not -- there's not kind of full parity between the black middle class and me white middle class, especially in wealth, but it's not like it was 50 years ago, and it's -- there have been changes. we should acknowledge that. i also think we should see and

acknowledge the fact that there's a far too large group of african-americans who haven't made the climb and that, as i said before, the rungs of the ladder are gone, and so kind of yelling at them and ignoring them and whatever isn't going to work. as far as i can fine in -- find in my research what does seem to work is a holistic approach because you have to look at health and education and infrastructure and all sorts of things to really begin to have impact, and -- but is that politically possible? there are 60 votes for that in the senate? i decided in the end that if i was going to confine myself to

what could get 60 votes in the senate, i'd still be writing and have to call up florence lincoln and the two senators from maine and ask them, what should i write? >> well, thank you. we're going to move on to some questions. [applause] >> thank you. >> thank you. >> and -- we have about ten minutes so please be brief. >> do you think the -- do you think the election of president obama will make it easier or more difficult for the next black presidential candidate. >> will the election of barack obama make it easier or more difficult for the next black presidential candidate? well, you know, on the whole i would say easier. because before barack obama we

didn't know there would -- that we'd be talking about the next black president, you know. the fact of his election opens up a possibility that at least to many of us seemed not to be there. you would have asked me five years ago, would there be a black president in my lifetime, i am sure i would have said no. or certainly would have said the odds are against it. so, just by having been elected, yeah, i think it makes it easier. it mighting be a while, put we'll see. i don't know. >> i do come from the south, and you said some things that brought some things to mind. when i was born, there was the n-word, but if you're a little more polite you used the world

colored, and if your were liberal you said negro, and by the time i was teenager, black got to be the term, and now the term african-american has taken hold. do you see this is where this whole type of desi nation is -- desi -- designation and there's going to be different ways to refer to people of african origin? >> i have no idea. you started the evolution well, and the answer is, i don't know where it goes, to tell you the truth. maybe this will stick around for a while. some people -- i've heard as i've been talking about the book, a couple of times people said, i prefer black to african-american. >> i'm black. i'm still black. >> there you have it.

>> i'm an admirer of yours and watch you on tv and read your columns. >> thank you. >> one of the thing is notice about you is kind of your bemused take on most things, be they racial or political or whatever, and i just wonder where that comes from? how do your keep -- [laughter] >> it's not from medication. [laughter] >> i can answer that question. [applause] >> ask my good friend pat buoy can buchanan, and i have wanted to throttle him a couple of times. i've come close. comes from my grandmother, who was full of sayings. she died at 98, and she just was a fountain of sayings, and she used to say, well, just as well the last is to cry. and sometimes things i talk

about are just so stupid and so ridiculous that you can't help but laugh at it. and so, anyhow, that's where it comes from. sadie smith was my grandmother. >> i don't know if you read today's "new york times," an article writ was -- where it was black voters are poised in 2010 to have a strategic impact and quotes the center for political and economic studies. to make the point that they can do this because there are many of them -- men blacks still reside in the areas in district in states that have the most contentious elections. can we, given the premise of your book, speak that way of black voters, and if not, how do

we politically plan? >> i think politics and voting is the one area in which, yes, we can speech meaningfully and confidently about black voters in terms of who they will vote for, especially right now. for some time, black voters have been overwhelmingly in support of the democratic party. i believe that one reason is that the republican party hasn't made a serious play for the black vote, and until they do that, i don't think it's going to change. i also think that, you know -- i would put a whole lot of money on the prop proposition that when president obama runs again, he is going to get black support in the 90s, not just because he is a democrat but but --

because of his historical saying significance. the one question about that its, black voters traditionally, generally vote in lower numbers in mid-year elections than in presidential year elections. mid-terms, they are a smaller percentage of the electorate. so the dropoff in terms of black voters is greater than in terms of white voters. so, in order to have that outside impact -- which black voters can have in this election -- turnout is the key thing, and they have to define historical trends and come out in larger numbers than they usually do. in which case, if that were to happen, then there could be a significant number of surprises

on november 2nd. but it's always dangerous to predict that historical trends. >> we're into the lightning round. we have two minutes left, i'm told. so let's make it brief. >> in the course of creating blackness were you told that we haven't actually come to a concrete general consensus what constitutes blackness? >> we haven't and that's an open, shifting definition, and used to be if you had one drop of african blood, you were black, and then i wonder if that's still the case to the extent that it used to be. most people are biracial. black and whites identify as black or african-american.

i wonder if that will always be the case or if there will be more of an identification as biracial, as there is in some other countries. >> i think that's the last question. >> the concept of the talented -- 10% of the black population were our aristocracy or our elite and that was almost 100 years ago, 50 years ago, malcom x talk about the field negro and -- he used different words. >> uh-huh. >> and some people say that, well, the fact that blacks are fragmented, politically and economically, is a no-brainer, and to try to find evidence of that, bill cosby got in trouble

for his, i guess, critique of the black underclass. do you think that his critique, his take on the relationship -- does that exemplify how we're thought about? >> i think there's some people who think that and others who don't. my only problem with bill cosby's critique is it didn't do a lot of good to yell at people, just yelling you must do better. fine. where are the tools? where is the possibility? >> we do have time for our last question. >> my question and concerns of the audience makeup here. it's almost entirely white and older than the average demographic, and does that mean that -- well, what does that mean in regards to black americans reading and young american reading and the texas book festival and austin, texas?

>> you may live here. i don't live here. so i don't know exactly what it means. talk about black reading habits, though. african-americans, particularly african-american women, are avid readers and book-buyers, and they are a hugely sought-after demographic for publishers. so i don't think that necessarily says that black folks aren't reading. may have more to do with austin. i don't know. i'm glad everybody who is here is here. >> thank you. [applause] >> with that, the old saying, if you want to keep something from black people, you have to hide it in a book. but we won't get to that today. with that, we thank you so much for being here, this was a speed

date, so next time we have to have him back, it's going to be a long date. >> okay. >> thank you so much. next door at the book signing. >> thank you all very much. thank you. thank you. [inaudible conversations] >> eugene robinson, associate editor and columnist at the "washington post" was a worth a pulitzer prize for distinguished commentary in 2009. he's also the author of "coal to cream" and "last dance in havana." this event was part of the 2010 texas book festival held annually in austin. >> next weekend on both tvs and depth, best selling author and editor at large of "national review online."

. . >> it's great to be here, and thank you, anne, for that lovely introduction. i'll open my water now rather than later. i wrote this book about bob dylan. it is not contrary to what you may have read a biography.

there's lots of biographies about bob dylan. this is not one of them. this is more of a meditation on bob dylan's art, his career, but his art primarily. the book had its origins, gosh, many decades ago, which you can read about and we can talk about, but it really got its start about, well, let's see, 2001, so just about nine years ago when out of the blue i got a phone call asking me to write something for bob dylan's website about an album he had coming out. my first reaction was who are you? i couldn't believe this was coming my way. one i established the caller, i agreed to do it if i liked the record. that was a bit prima a donna i

suppose. i loved it though and it threw my for a loop. they liked what i wrote, and that led to more writing about bob dylan and the beginning of some biewflt friendships with -- beautiful friendships to whom i'm very grateful to in this entire endeavor. a few years back i thought i was writing a lot about the guy and thought maybe there was enough to write a book and there was only 90 pages of stuff. i had to fill in some thing, and i took the assignment on to myself of filling things in and this is the result. this is not a biography in any particular way at ail. it's more of my own meditation of his art, about his songs, and his connection to american culture. bob dylan is part of a vast

circuitry that continues right to our own day. placing or reconstructing those circuits and understanding the i understand fliewns of the web and counterinfluence and that's what i wanted to try and do. it really started with that which is full of all kinds of american song, and i thought, well, let's see where my thoughts can take me about this. i decided to be cron lodge calculate. -- chronological. i wanted to start at the beginning and end as far as i could in the present. i wanted to go back to the early years, his early years, and try to understand something about the influences on his work and then talk about various phases

in his career, his early years up through blond and then a later period which i call later. [laughter] then a dry period that i call an interlude when he recaptured his muse in the late 1990s and then up to the christmas album of last year. the book is divided in that way. i wanted to go back very, very much. there was to influences i thought very important. one, that is obvious to anyone who knows his work, was the folk revival and movement that came out of the front of the 1930s and 40s, and the other was the b generation, the b poets. writing about the popular front

-- well, there were sort of two questions, two problems that immediately posed themselves. one is the obvious, and problems mandatory figures to write about in terms of influencing bob dylan were woody guthrie and pete seeger and others in that circle of left wing folk singers of the 1940s, the almanac singers and others. the first problem was how to do that or write about that period given the fact that so many others have written about woody guthrie and bob dylan. i had nothing particularly new to say. i had no new thoughts or inspiration. what could i say about this? it's been done. same with pete seeger. i mean, it's been done. i took a real gamble, and i decided i'm going to write about someone who has nothing to do with any of this, but was connected to that world, and so

i wrote about aaron copeland and bob dylan. already there are murmurs. how can they be related? beside the fact aaron used folk songs in his music in the 40s. well, two things happened in the research. one, i remembered after the terrorist attacks in 9/11, he started playing again and played snatches out of rodeo, this was his response to 9/11. he played copeland music. that's interesting. then i ran across in a book on copeland, i ran across a review written in 1934 in the "daily worker" of a performance that copeland gave at a local

communism club. it was written by carl sands. his real name was charles seeger, pete seeger's dad. they used to take young pete to this club to listen to copeland. the chapter wrote itself. although it's not a study of direct influence by any means, it's a study of how bob dylan's art in part came out of a whole assembly of cultural forces that came to the floor in the 1930s and 40s, and one part was epitomized by woody guthrie and pete seeger and another part wag

>> we talked about aaron copeland and his movie music. aaron's first musical project after billy the kid was to write the score in 1939 for a film by the innovative director lose -- louis milestone. cope land was trying to break into film work, but still known in hollywood as a composer of

modern art music and it was too difficult for american moviegoers. thanks in part to his good friend who relocated to hollywood and inspired in part by virtual thompson's film work, copeland got his foot in the door and produced a score of composed simplicity, the style that was very much at the forefront of his work in the 1940s although without the obvious borrowing from folk music. the film won praise as did his successful techniques including daringly for the time disinnocence in a film score. we're not talking about -- we're talking about hollywood. the following year copeland's music earned him two academy award nominations and the

national review board. jack, not yet out of high school, saw milestone's film in his rural town of massachusetts or in new york most likely. the movie as well as the ghostly aftermath stuck with him, particularly the racketing opening scene carried along by copeland's dramatic music. 15 years later it was described in the 54th chorus of his large collection of poems in mexico city blues. once i went to a city at midnight, of mice and men, cars rolling by on the screen. yes, sir, life finally gets tired of living.

21 years after he wrote those lines on a crisp afternoon at the cemetery, bob dylan and allen ginsberg visited jack's grave trailed by a film crew and various others including the young playwright sam shepherd. dylan performed the night before, but they had together a new group of friends and old that called themselves the rolling thunder review. ginsberg was excited and met up with drinking buddies trying to immerse the entraj. after they joined the group for a movie they planned to make of the tour was noted in his travel log, the names of real fights described in the collective folk

writings. at the cemetery, he recited not from pros, but blues invoking specters, fatigue, and he and dylan contemplated the headstone. when dylan included foot taj of the event in a film, yet another circuit closed linking jack listening to copeland and watching mice and men in 1940 with the scene at the grave in clara in 1977. made it.

phew. [laughter] after that we talk about bob dylan more and there's an interesting complicated artistic personal friendship there. i want to read more out of the chapter because again coincidences, thing i never imagined would be true were true and i think add a lot to our understanding of what was going on at the time and something about bob dylan's place in our culture. i begin with a movie, another movie. there's a lot about movies in here, a beautiful movie. the film about dylan's concert tour in england in 1965 don't look back include several scenes of dylan and his group at the suite in the hotel. in one dylan squats on the floor and slurring his words, he converses with jack elliot's old recording mate who relocated to

england and suggested they get together and he'll turn you on to some things. okay, is there any poets like allen ginsberg around? no, nothing like that, adams replies. he pauses for a split second. he was very annoyed. i just don't want to hear anybody like that, dylan says. it's no wonder he was annoyed because he was accused of plagiarism and it never crossed anybody's mind. there was a famous scene where they are -- well, never mind. they were not for the better from that exchange. meanwhile, dylan wanted to do