much on fishing and hunting. which is okay. but now i want to help encourage a broader interest in the wonderful environment that they have inherited. : very encouraged that people are now starting to pay attention and hopefully the collective efforts of people like ourselves and others will change the face of the sport. >> thomas, what do you think of hip hop now? >> it sunk to new lows. [laughter] >> the inspiration for this book -- i started thinking about the ideas -- >> sunk to new lows, you say? >> i do. i started writing this book -- well, i wrote the op-ed in 2007. and i believe the dominant artists at the time -- not the

sole artist but the artists that were really driving the media coverage of the genre and that were really setting the cultural tone were soulja boy and others. if you compare that either to like the so-called gangsta rappers of the early '90s or jay-z or biggie that's such a decline in artistic quality. >> so you're cool with biggie. >> i have problems with biggie but i think he had a lot more complexity than what you see right now. i am kind of interested in watching -- in watching a guy like drake. but i don't think that, you know, one artist guides an entire culture. >> so you say it sunk to new lows. explain to me why you feel that way. i mean, these are our street poets, okay? why do you feel that they've sunk to new lows if they are expressing their reality? >> well, it's debatable if

they're expressing their reality. a lot of them are simply propagating some of the worst stereotypes about black people. that ever existed. [applause] >> but if that's their reality, should they be silent? >> it's not many of their realities. some of them do have pretty gritty realities. >> but there's been a movie about biggie and we can clearly see that he rapped in the streets. >> biggie was a guy who observed more other realities than he rapped about his own. i lived in the fort green area of brooklyn for a few years and the part of clinton hill that biggie comes from is quite nice compared to the parts of the rural south where a lot of -- it's much nicer than what james baldwin grew up in and ralph ellison grew up and far more -- >> the guy was a drug dealer. >> i grew up in the suburbs

around guys who chose to deal drugs because it was very cool. >> right, right. >> his mother was a school teacher and he didn't to have deal drugs to feed himself. >> right, but that was his choice -- >> it was, exactly. >> so let me ask you this. what is good hip hop to you? >> well, i want -- i want to be very clear about this. my book is not about music. it's not -- it's not a critique of the artistic merit of hip hop which i don't dispute. >> well, let me repeat your title. losing my cool: how a father's love and 15,000 books beat hip hop culture. >> it's about a system of values that the music doesn't create but it provides a soundtrack and an echo chamber -- it magnifies often and it glorifies and romanticizes these things i'm not -- a lot of older black critics of hip hop have a problem with hip hop on a musical level and find it inferior of black music.

that's not my feeling at haul i'm trying to attack ideas and cultural values and critique them and talk about what i really see as the secular religion of hip hop which is it's a way of living. it's even a way of reaching for a cup of water. it's a way of greeting someone in the street. it's a way of dismissing certain ideas that's not real. i'm not talking about whether an artist like andre 3000 has ability because clearly he does. and i think that the music -- i wouldn't even need to critique the culture if the music was trash because one of the reasons the culture is so powerful and seductive and the music -- the culture is aesthetically pleaseing in a lot of ways. >> but that's the history of african-american music in a sense -- >> well, not really. i mean, if you listen to a love supreme by john coulter there's no similarity in something like gucci mane and the burr print, too.

[applause] >> so -- am a john coltrane fan. >> me too. >> i am. so i want to go back my question which i want you to answer directly. what would be good hip hop? >> i could -- we could spend the rest of the panel listing good hip hop. >> what would be good hip hop since you're saying it's -- >> good hip hop music is like reasonable doubt by jay-z. it's ready to die by biggie schmaltz. now, is the content and the message that's involved in some of that great music poison, yeah, it is. if you try to live your life the way jay-z instructs

>> good afternoon. good afternoon. we're going to >> midafternoon we began our panel with ingrid betancourt "even silence has an end" her bs of captivity in the colombian junk l.

.. when she was attempting to go to an area of the country that was controlled by the guerrilla forces, the farc, she was apprehended. the book is a memoir of that experience mid it is a delight to have a conversation about you with it. could you start by telling us about that fateful day? february 22, 2002? >> guest: first i want to thank you all for being witho us.s and it was a saturday, eight years ago. and i was in a presidential

campaign. i had to go to a village which was the place where the peace talks with the farc and the government have been held. this trip was planned many weeks before, but two days before that trip, the peace talks abruptly ended. there was a crisis. and the peace talks just came to an end. and well, i had to, you know, figure out if i was going to go. and the mayor who was a person from my party called me and asked me not to cancel the trip. because for them it was important. they were very concerned that -- with the end of the peace talks the population could be threatened by terrorists that could take revenge on them.

well, he insisted and i decided to go with the condition that the security scheme would be confirmed. so that a morning this was confirmed, i had an armored car where we were going to land and then from that point on and we had to take the road. that same day the president of colombia at the time decided to go at the same time to the same place. and it was important for him to go there because he wanted to tell the people of colombia that the place was safe. the problem was that he had given to the farc a big space, as big as switzerland.

what they had called the demilitarized zone where the guerrillas had control. the police were not there. the farc had control of that zone and be safe and do the peace talks. once it was over the government gave 48 hours to the farc to just leave the place and the president was to confirm that the place was safe under military control. when i arrived to the airport the place is under military control. there were i would say like 20 black hawks, uniforms all over the place. and once i was getting ready to get to the road and begin the trip, my escort, my bodyguards received an order from bogota not to come with me.

so at that moment i had to think if i would pursue in going or if i would cancel. and for me the problem was a problem of principles. because i thought if i just accept and cancel, then the colombian government -- every time they will want me not to go somewhere, they will just take my security out and they will control my campaign. so what's the point of a democracy? what's the point of doing a campaign? well, just, you know, appoint a successor and it's over. so i decided to go mainly because i didn't want to be manipulated by the government. i wanted to feel free to do the campaign to do what i wanted to do. this aroused kind of, you know -- all kind of speculation because once i got to the road after a military checkpoint, i stumbled in a blockade done by

the guerrilla. and when i arrived at that location, i didn't know they were militaries or guerrillas. but they had told me, you know, those things that they tell you as candidates that i always had to check for the boots. if the boots were leather boots, it was military. but if they were rubber boots, i had to be very careful because those were guerrillas. and that moment those guys' uniformed with guns -- well, they had rubber boots. so i fall into the trap. >> and that was the beginning of six-year plus ordeal. and your expectations in the early weeks -- what did you think was going to happen? >> well, i thought it was going to be something -- i mean, for me three weeks was like a very long time.

and i thought, my god, i'm going to stay here a week, two weeks, perhaps three weeks? that's going to be awful. and then three weeks passed and i thought, okay, they're going to liberate me when the presidential campaign is over because after that, what's the point of having me? so once the presidential campaign -- the elections came and the new president was elected, they didn't free me. so that's when i thought this might be longer. but i never thought it was going to be so long. >> can you talk about the conditions? i'm really struck in reading the book about the number of different places where you were and how different people who are with you but really the conditions which times were really quite desperate and difficult? >> well, we changed places all the time.

i remember in the three first months of my abduction i counted more than 20 camps where we were just changing. after i lost the count. but we were always trying to escape from the military that were after us. so we were getting deeper and deeper and deeper into the jungle. sometimes we would walk. other times it would be by boat. and, of course, it was impossible for me to know where we were because the jungle is a maze. i mean, everything is -- it's the jungle. so there's no way you make the difference from one place to the other. it's always the same trees, always the same vegetation. sometimes you have big rivers and enormous rivers but mostly you have little creeks. and you just, you know -- the camp that they built are always built near a creek. so you have the supply of water.

but that's all as a civilization you could get because there's nothing. so the camps are built with what they have in site. they chopped trees and with that they -- you know, they put the tents the hammocks. they built bridges. they built paths, dams. and it's very -- i mean, it's like getting to a prehistorical time in just a snap. >> and what -- the specific conditions in which you were living and sleeping and eating? >> when we were at a camp, if we were lucky we could clean up in hammocks or we could sleep in beds that we would make with logs.

of course, imagine what it's like to sleep on a mattress of logs but you get used to it, also. if not, we would just sleep on the floor on top of plastic sheets. and that was all. the problem is, of course, is the surrounding and the jungle is the jungle and you have all kinds of bugs, very nasty things and animals and, of course, snakes and tarantlas and that kind of things. sometimes you see tigers and sometimes you see monster, really huge, huge -- i remember once i was in my the transfer where you're at. and the commander gave the order to take us to the river. they wanted to show us something. so we went and they had taken

out from the river a humongous anna gone today. -- anaconda. i never thought something like this could exist. and i have a lot in the guinness thing and every time i see this, the one i saw was bigger. [laughter] >> it was really bigger. i mean, you could walk like 8 big steps but the thing that amazed me was how big it was because i realized that it was bigger than me. and so i thought it could have swallowed me without any problem. and so because of that, i had nightmares for a long, long time. >> and in one of your many attempts to escape you had the courage to go into those waters without having seen what lurks, you know, can you -- i was really -- i found it very

compelling your description -- your need to escape and to submit and the power and the authority of these people. tell us about your escaped attempts. they're very powerful. >> just to put you in context, you are with people that are armed. and that behave like the authority. and they do a very effective brainwash in the sense that they try to convince that you're guilty of something and that they have the right to take you -- and have you as prisoner. they don't say that you are a kidnapped person. they say you're a prisoner. and that -- and they put you in prisons in the jungle. i mean, barbed wire, fence.

and this can just change your mind in the sense that after a while i could see some of my fellow hostages just -- like admitting that those guys were the authority and that we had to just obey without questioning. and for me for the moment i understood this was happening to all of us, i just wanted to not be brainwashed. and the way i just tried to confront the situation was always to keep in mind that i wanted to escape. and it was my obsession. it was really my obsession. i just -- every time -- every single day i would plan how to escape. so i managed to do it a couple of times. and the biggest escape we succeeded to do was one that runs for seven days and like always we were always recaptured. and that escape was a dramatic escape.

i had a friend that was hostage with me and he was pushing me to escape with him. because he had done it before and he wanted to do with me and he just wanted to escape. so for six months we prepared this escape but the thing is he was very ill. he was diabetic. and food was an issue. and we knew that we would have some days that we could just go with some provisions and escape with some provisions but once the provisions were out, the problem was for him to just stay put and live on what we could find in the jungle. and i remember the day we escaped, it was -- it was -- it was the day -- we arrived to new sites. and they began to open like

ditches like all the site around there and we realized they were going to construct another barbed wire and fences. and they brought the lock to close the site and we knew that the next day it was going to be closed. so if we didn't want that day, it was over. i think one of the guards that was guarding us had a suspicion but it never happened but that day it happened they put a garrido just in front of my hammock and i thought we're not going to be able to make it. and i was desperate because i knew that after that -- i mean, how many more years we were going to stay there? so what happened is that it rained a lot that night. tropical storm. and the guy was there under the

rain, pouring rain and then i think he just got tired and he thought we were sleeping and he just left. and at the moment he left, i went to wake up my companion. and we took boots from other hostages and we put them in front of our hammock because we knew that the first thing they would check was the boots. if we had run away, the boots were not going to be in front of the hammock. so we put our boots, we left of the other boots on of our companions and we run for the river. and in the moment when we got to the river i mean, we were so frightened. i mean, really we were running away and how frightened we were. and we arrived to this huge, huge river. and there was -- the tropical storm had ended.

and the sky had opened up and there was this enormous, beautiful full moon and we could see like daylight. and well, we had some cords. we put them around us because, of course, with the current of the river we were afraid that we would be apart and we jumped into the river and the current was very, very strong and it just took us. and i remember the impression of having this current taking us in that river and looking back and beginning to see all the -- you know, the things of the guerrillas and the boats they had and every time they were smaller and smaller until the moment we took a curve and there was no guerrilla and then we were free. we were free for seven days. it was amazing. >> that's a beautiful description. yeah, very moving.

you know, i'm going to ask you to indulge me in a reading, if you will. you didn't -- an author that is traveling without her book. [laughter] >> she must have memorized the piece. but the prose in this book is beautiful. if you wouldn't mind reading this because i think it also speaks to this issue about the urge to escape and the need to escape and what that's about. >> okay. >> at night another kind of nature emerged. sounds resonated deeply revealing this immensity of this unknown space. the cacophony reached a painful volume. it exhausted our brains with its vibrations. this was also the hour of major surges in heat as if the earth

were discharging what it had stored up during the day going into the atmosphere and giving of the sensation of having succumbed to fever. but it passed quickly and an hour later the temperature dropped steeply and we had to protect ourselves against a shield that left us yearning for the sweltering heat of dusk. as coolness set in the night birds left their nests, breaking up the air with the slaughter of their wings and across the sky screeching eerily like solitary souls. i followed them in my imagination pointing at them as they dodged the trees flying at high subpoenaed behind the forest, higher than the clouds to where the constellations where i dreamed of happiness from the past.

>> that is beautiful prose. [applause] >> the power of that imagination seems to have sustained you during this six-year ordeal. can you talk more about the things that sustained you, the things that kept you from breaking under the pressures of your isolation and the brutality with which you were being treated and the desperate conditions? >> i think there is a word that explains everything in human condition. and identity love. -- it's love. the only explanation for being able to just face the situation -- we had to cope was love. first the love of my children, the love of my parents. that love that i had known before the abduction because i

wanted to get back there in the life that i had, love. and i believe in god. so for me the love of god made things different. and i could see the difference with my fellow hostages that didn't believe in god. for them, surviving at any cost was what was important. for me, surviving was not the important thing. for me the important thing was how to survive. because i didn't want to live without dignity. i didn't want to accept to be treated like a number or an object or an animal. and i had many confrontations because much. -- because of that. i remember once they were putting us in a prison, barbed wire, very small space. on top of each other.

people in a small space and then 4:00 in the morning two guards came and shoved count yourself. i didn't know what he was talking about and i didn't know what to do and then i realized that my companions were responding to the roll call. and the first -- the nearest to the gates at one and then the other say two, and the third one said three and when it it came to me i had to say whatever number and i didn't say that number. i couldn't. i just said my name. and there was this kind of horrible silence and i felt i had to explain, and i said, look, if you want to know it from here, if i haven't escaped, you just call me by my name and say ingrid and i will answer. and that aroused a huge deal of

uncomfort in our group because i was, you know, addressed by some of my companions saying who do you think you are. do you think you're better than us. you don't think you can answer like everybody, saying a number. what's the difference about you? and i just told them, i don't do this. i didn't react like this because i'm feeling better than anyone. it's not arrogant mother. it's because i cannot. i cannot. i cannot. i'm not going to make this easier for them. they have an order which is to kill us if the army comes. it's easier to kill a number. it's easier to kill an object. it's easier to kill an animal. i'm not an animal. i'm not an object. i'm not a number. and now when i think about those days, i think it was because i thought there was something more important than life.

and that reasoning came because i thought there was a god. and that it was a loving god. now, i had an also huge amount of love in my companions. my companions were -- i mean, my force. they were my role models in so many things. and the example of sacrifice and of love kept me going. so i would say definitely love is the answer. >> that's very powerful. there are many powerful moments in this book and one of the ones that really i suppose was quite gripped by was the story of the -- i'm going to call it the cabbage wrappings. i wonder if you can tell us what happened because it's really very moving. >> okay. yeah.

that's a very painful moment for me. we normally ever had any kind of vegetables coming in the camps. we only ate rice and beans. but one day there were an arrival of cabbages and they were wrapped in a newspaper. so because we were bored and we had nothing to read we asked the commander if we could take those newspapers and just, you know, read them. they were old. but, you know, it was the best that we could have. so they accepted. and they brought the newspapers to us. and i had this piece of newspaper in front of me. and there was a picture of a priest surrounded by photograph first with big lenses.

and the explanation of the priest was very strange. so i just just looked and read the caption. and it said this priest is very concerned and very annoyed at the amount of photographers around the coffin of -- i'm sorry. [applause] >> well, it was my father's name. i'm sorry.

i'm being helped. i'll get over this at this time. >> i thought often in book that it was a therapeutic process for you. and talk about that because there's a lot of commentary about discovering things about yourself that you didn't know and they were unanticipated. >> well, the thing is that when i arrived from captivity to freedom, i just i couldn't talk about this. my children, my mother, my family. i knew they were waiting for me to just tell them what happened and i couldn't. and i still cannot. i mean, every time i think about things i have this surge of emotions. even though i'm better. i'm just much better but then i

realized that the only way to just, you know, share what had happened was by writing. and i thought it was important to do it because i think i had to give testimony of what we just saw in those camps. and there was so many things that were important just to, you know, share. so it was very difficult for me to write this book. because i was always, you know, in this fight with my emotions. and at the end of a day of writing i was just exhausted. i thought it was going to take me six months. it took me a year and a half. it was long. and i'm so glad i'm done. [laughter] >> and when i was writing it i didn't think it was very their built cal and i could see my

fellow hostages and i would talk to them on a daily basis and i could see that they had just moved on in their lives and they were just, you know, doing fine and i thought, this is masochism. but now that i did it, i think it was very important for me. i think i could -- i could just clean some wounds that were very deep. and even if i'm still a little emotional, i think i achieved things that were very important. like forgiving. forgiving was very important. forgiving -- first forgiving me. and then forgiving others. you can't forgive the others if you can't forgive yourself and i'm glad that i did it.

>> your book has had -- there was some controversy in colombia. and i wonder if you could talk about that. what are the issues and what are people understanding or misunderstanding about what you're trying to do? >> well, i think that before i wrote the book, other hostages wrote their book. and i think it was very important they just said what they thought. but i think also -- perhaps because -- i don't know the reason. but it came up as if the book they had wrote were targeting me. which is not the case actually. i think it was like, you know --

one of the things that happened with the media is that, you know, they like to make controversial things. so they tried just to pinpoint the criticism. . .. >> we were living in a huge mud. i mean, huge mud. everything was made to put us against each other, and it was

also the strategy. they needed to divide us because they were afraid that because we were together we could attempt escape together if we were united. so it was very important for them to just fill us with wrong information about each other. and even though we knew we were being manipulated in a way because we knew that they were saying things about, you know, one or the other that were not accurate. the thing is that even by knowing that whenever there was a problem that arose because, of course, we're human beings, we were packed in a very small space, and imagine what it is. i mean, you need your space, a little space to be, and when you don't have that, you fight for space. and that was happening to us. and when it would happen, we

would just forget that we were also under stress. and even though we knew that we were, you know, in this situation, by being addressed by the other, we would just be in pain. and we just would have very strong feelings against our fellow hostages when those kind of confrontation came by. and the incredible thing is that i could see that we could forgive the guards that were very humiliating and very cruel towards us because there were the enemies and we didn't, we didn't expect anything from the enemy. but it was very difficult to forgive the ones who were our companions. because we wanted them to be, you know, loving us. and we didn't get that love. so when that happened, the confrontation was sometimes very harsh, and that's one way of seeing things. and you can talk about those

things and talk about the confrontation and the problems you have between hostages, but you can see the other thing which i think is incredible. because in that mud there are also diamond, and you can also become diamonds, and i prefer the diamonds. and the diamonds were the moments when we were the heros we wanted to be, when we would sacrifice ourselves to save the lives or another, or we would just be with the other, we'd fight for the other. and that happened too. not always, not as often as we would have liked, but it happened. so that's human nature. and i think we have to be very humble and see what happened with, you know, with humility. and just know that sometimes it was good and sometimes it wasn't as good. >> go ahead. >> we've got a few minutes left,

and we'd like to invite you to ask questions of ingrid betancourt. and, please, step up to the microphone. ask while we wait for people -- and while we wait for people to come, i'll ask a question here, and that is i was just struck by the paradox, the great paradox in many your book between the beauty of these surroundings that you describe in this riveting terms and then the horror within which you found yourself. i mean, it seems such a contradictory universe. can you -- >> yes. because the world is beautiful, but sometimes we human make it not as beautiful as it should in be. the problem in the jungle wasn't the jungle. it's the humans in the jungle. >> it wasn't the anacondas, it was the people. well, thank you, ingrid, very much. [applause]

>> we have about ten minutes. if you'd keep your questions short, we'll try to get through as many as we can. >> can you hear me? good. >> yeah. >> ingrid, first of all, a lot of respect for the endeavor and suffering you had to undergo. i have not read your book, i -- but i will. >> thank you. >> i have a few questions. hugo chavez was very instrumental in the liberation of these hostages. what do you think of them, and are they as evil and despicable as the u.s. and colombia media portray them to be? number two, why do the farc exist? i understand people that join them are in impow riched area.

you come from a privileged background, i don't think you had to face that issue, whether to join the insurgency or not. number three -- >> can we, can we -- [laughter] >> i will forget. >> what do you feel when the colombian military bombed the camp to get a leader of the farc like -- >> okay. >> i think we're going to to -- [laughter] >> okay. hugo chavez and pierre cordon. they were very effective in bringing to freedom eight of my fellow hostages, and for that we only can say thank you. the second question about -- well, okay. well, you see, the easy answer would be in colombia there is

guerrillas. that's not the truth. because -- not because they defend the poor, but because they use the poor. and they use it as the paramilitary does and as the drug trafficker does, do. so it's not a war between rich and poor. it's a war about money. and the guerrilla, the farc that at the beginning was, you know, communist guerrilla, very much like we could think think of a get very row type is not that anymore. it's not. and you see, what happens is sometimes there is a saying that end justifies the mean. well, the truth is that the means shape the end. i mean, whatever you do is, that's what you are. it's not the opposite. and because the guerrillas are

drug trafficking, today what is important to them is to continue drug trafficking. it's not to save the world or to fight for people in colombia. it's not that. it's just to be able to protect a way of life which is a way of life where they have lots of power because they have money, they can buy weapons, and they have control over the territory where they are. so, yes, they have humble peasants joining into the guerrilla. because for them it's an upgrade in the conditions of life. but they don't fight for the poor people. they use, they use them to just, you know, kill and get killed. but the hierarchy in the farc shows that the ideology that they predict, that they, you know, speak about is not the way they live. i saw a hierarchy of privileges,

not of sharing. i saw people wanting to be a commander because they would have money, because they would have better conditions, more food. the luxury of the jungle. the luxury of the jungle is not a maserati. the luxury of the jungle is chicken. but that's the luxury. and for a chicken, you could die. because that's the way you will eat better, and that's what they will have. the guys will have the most beautiful women in the jungle. that's power. that's how they use their power. so, i'm sorry, whoever thinks that the farc is leftist, romantic revolutionary organization, wrong. wrong. they're doing a business, they're running a business, a very criminal business. >> okay. let's go to the next -- >> [inaudible] has. >> thank you. >> thank you. why did it take so long, was a ransom demanded and no one to

pay it? what took it so long? why were you there so long. >> >> yeah. very good question. actually there was no ransom, there was no economic ransom asked for. we were a group of people that the farc had abducted to exchange us for guerrillas in colombian jails. and is at first that was what they wanted. but then they realized that we were better than a trade good because we were like a trophy. i mean, by having us abducted, the whole world was talking about them, and they would be addressed by heads of state. and they would have this huge importance because they had us. so it was clear for us after some years that there were, that there was not going to be any negotiation for freedom. chavez obtained from the farc the liberation of some of us.

but let's say the big fish -- and we were a couple of those big fish -- we were not going to be out every. ever. so for us the rescue operation, the colombian hill tear rescue operation -- military rescue operation was not only a miracle, but it was, i mean, the only way out for us. >> i think we may have time for one last question. >> hi, ingrid. i'm so proud to be in front of you. i have a personal question. you know, when you became kidnapped, you became the mother, sister and aunt, daughter, friend for all colombia. we cried for you, we prayed for you. the day you were liberated, we were so happy. we were crying again. so i know that you felt that love from all your beautiful country. and i now, that love is not there from your colombia. how does it make you feel? >> well, t very hard. and it's very painful.

we'll explain what happened. i think it's important to explain. some months ago i did a procedure in colombia to claim for compensation for my abduction. this is a law that exists in colombia and that protects the victims of terrorism. it was a new law, and some of my fellow hostages had presented their claim, and it was, you know, perfect. but when i presented mine, it was a huge scandal. and i believe that this was a political manipulation. because what they told the people was that i was attacking injustice, the soldiers that had rescued me. which, of course, is, i mean, it's insane. but by doing so, they just broke that love relationship i had with my country. and today i feel very wounded. it has been very, very difficult

for me to just cope with the pressure. there were horrible things said about me, horrible things. for example, saying that i wanted to get money from my abduction. the thing is that whatever the amount as put by the lawyers was, they could give me that or 100 times more. it wouldn't give me back the six years i lost in the jungle. so it's very hard, but at the same time it opens, for me, my eyes into what's happening in colombia. because i think it's, it always happens in a way in colombia that the victims are turned into, into criminals. i was treated like a criminal. they forgot that farc had abducted me. i was a criminal after that. and i think it's the kind of protection that the societies that have lived this violence have. like to say it will never happen to me because i don't do this or

i don't do that, and i think it's a lack of solidarity, and i think it's wrong. and i really deeply think that my country and my society, all of us are sick. we're sick of violence. we cannot see the suffering of others. we're just, we have a frame of mind which gives us a very stone-hearted attitude where we don't care about the suffering of others because we don't want to see it because we are in our comfort zone, and whatever happens out there, for example, to those four million colombians that are displaced in colombia and no one wants to see that? well, i think that it all goes together to this same situation where we're just, we have to change our hearts. we should be able to understand the others, and we don't to -- do it. >> i think that's the note upon which we will end this panel. thank you very much, ingrid.

thank you for a courageous story. [applause] and thank you for coming today. [applause] african countries head just got to in their independence. or were independent for a while.

that entailed in the context was born that in asia, that they took over power very quickly. people, i don't want to use the word class because we were a level to call ourselves class, clay and, groups of people were persecuted or persecuting others. those of us who felt persecuted by those in power moved around rebuffed our countries of origin and went elsewhere. that was easy to do. i was born into globalization without realizing that i was in a globalizing world. some people use the world multi-cultural. i think back where we came

from, all of us came from different cultures all searching for a better life and economic progress but to move from country to country and language to language and hemisphere to hemisphere was so much easier. we took a more for granted them by grandmothers generation. then i come of age in the information age. i see generations like my mother and grandmother, got a taste of it. i am not just a child of globalization but also a child intellectual college-age after 1989. after the fall of the soviet union. why was that the case? >> host: how did that

impact your life directly? >> guest: it impacted it directly, if we except that basis there is a clash of civilizations between the west and islam and that was awarded to the muslim civilization. i live in it and a brief stint and was committed to it and believed in it and it came to the westin did the same thing and made my future here and was able to compare. not just the geographical differences, but the difference is in the value systems. my a kids appreciate one or the other and make the choice and i think that if you look to what is it how i

interpret it even say that i live in this everyday life, that is more than anything else that exposed both worlds, and i feel i am able to compare. and my own opinions are one of many. is my opinion. and the events of living history today. >> host: you would say a number of the primary factors that influence your thinking are derived from your being a party and influenced by globalization and you being a part of a tribe and also as i a understand it, your own background in terms of your education and being exposed to multi-cultural circumstances. would you say that is the foundation on which your

book is derived? and you're very being? >> guest: yes. the only thing i would add to that is i have been exposed to different types of education. my mother and grandmother and q'uaran teachers gave me a different set of education from what i would label a western education. it was individualism adventure and responsibilities. not just traipsing all over the world but into the unknown. science. reason. that is what i associate with the rest. my grandmother, mother and q'uaran teachers and preachers that educated me and loyalty to the klan, tradition, loyalty to god and the hereafter, the

prophet muhammed and following in his example. i was educated in both places but it is radically different. k .ne . that science has its artistic features and strongly linked to politics. my own life has been engaged not only in science but in the arts and the politics of doing science, so what's interesting to most people about what i do is the way in which science is conducted and the way in which

the political process influence science. i thought the public would enjoy reading about it. >> you went to airburst cow describe their transference from english major to scientist. >> is a complicated thing but i was originally going to be a doctor, went to college and fell in love with literature, started graduate school and became disenchanted with fact, went back to medical school and at the age of 28 was compelled by the vietnam war to provide government service which i did at the national institutes of health where i learned that researches even more exciting than medicine. then devoted my life to sign seven mack. >> what will fans of science learn about politics from reading your book and welfare is a politics learn about science? >> question. people who simply admire the scientific process will begin to realize how important and interesting and difficult the intee