out of the republican party that you say okay that's good. it sounds like, you know, and again, my party has to understand that doesn't mean okay we are going to cooperate and do exactly what you want. that's not what works and that's really important for the democratic party to understand, but there's also been moments of, you know, we're not that

interested in cooperation and we are all about politics, so we will see. >> david, if the president had allowed an's lamp on the stage and he rubbed it in the country wishes, would be the three bridges you think he would ask for immediately? [laughter] >> well i won't even go there. i think that -- of think he, like most of us, wants to see this economy he also the we are growing what so the we are creating jobs, we are creating a good and stable jobs that people are able to get appropriate wage and health care costs are brought down over time so that's eating up less of businesses and people's paychecks. and that we are also doing the smart long-term things so we are leading the world in green technology jobs. we continue to lead in innovation. we continue to lead the way in

digital revolution. that our education system is really strengthened so that we are producing. the engineers and scientists that are economic competitors are. so those are the things -- but if you set a listen, the economy growing at the rate we used to slow the economy can heal coupled with doing the smart long-term things the way a foundation for a future, and those would be -- there's no silver bullet for that. it's going to take a lot of hard work. some things work and some don't work as well as you would like to. and again, it's not just government. this is a partnership with the public sector of the american people to really make sure this happens. >> i guess you wouldn't wish for a silver bullet then. before we say thanks to david plouffe a word about the national program. next wednesday night we will meet a small professor of the university of utah who has also

served in the israeli military. his expertise is how to handle domestic terrorism of the sort we saw at fort hood texas or on the times square. it's a national issue i thought would make an interesting twist in the semester of national agenda. a quick perlo for the global agenda, the international speakers see reason the spring global agenda begins february 23rd. watch the web site for details, udel.edu/globalagenda. if you're not on the list and would like to get on the list for the notices of programs like this, print your name and e-mail address on one of the sheets of in the lobby on your way out. don't forget david will be signing books in the lobby at mitchell all right after this program. be sure to get yours and ask for his signature if you like and please, let thank our special guest tonight, david plouffe. good night, everyone. see you next week. [applause]

>> [inaudible conversations]

next a discussion of free integrating wounded veterans from a forum on the effect of war posted by case western reserve university in cleveland, this is a little more than two

hours. [inaudible conversations] >> okay. welcome, everybody. i was giving just a few extra minutes to settle in, but let's -- we will start now. my name is jeremy and i am and the philosophy department here. i work with shannon at case western reserve university. we have the very important panel i feel today on war healing, the recovery and a reintegration of our combat veterans. this is a complicated panel, even at the level of its construction. we have different audiences that this panel might speak to.

there are many combat veterans here who know too well or very well with this panel concerns. there are also general citizens and people coming into adulthood who may not know much tall about what this panel involves. in addition, this panel was being taped, and in that way it enters into the public's sere where conceptions and perhaps misconceptions about this topic reside. so it's a complicated panel because we want to be able to speak to all the audiences that really matter. we want to be able to speak in a way that is helpful to people combat veterans in particular, but also the people with whom they spend their lives, who are

dealing with this issue and may be helped by some of the insights of the practical experts and theoretical researchers who are here with us today. we also want to be able to help students who are becoming citizens understand the gravity of citizenship, and many of the complexities when we try to get on with business as usual in our society. and finally, insofar as this panel is becoming part of the public sphere through media, we want to be able to come at some later point in time, to laugh least paint a picture of this issue that is not simplistic and that is not overly optimistic or vision, but has what the genuine hope there could be in it which is faithful to the complexity of the experience surrounding war

healing. i say that as a preface to set the tone and also to help us understand why there may be different levels to the conversation. some people may feel it's too simple or two basic. others may feel at times it's too abstract, and we will all try to negotiate that. the key to doing so is your participation. and the standard format for panels at this conference is something like an hour of the various experts talking to get their a round focused questions followed by an hour of question and answer from the floor. we all agree, however, that would be most helpful sooner rather than later, to find out what you will find useful from this panel, and so, knowing from lecturing but something between 30 to 45 minutes is about the

tolerance level in the same brain has to talking heads, i will cut the panel part on the shorter side closer to 45 for between 30 to 45 minutes depending on where we are going. and at that point, we really appreciate your questions from the floor and we will work it out from there. okay? okay. joining me today are worth six very special and very different people related to this topic, and i will go down the road from the left to the right or from your side of the left to the right. cheryl stone. the last 12 years has been employed at the vm and know how you as a psychotherapist working with combat veterans and other veterans with ptsd and a

specialty clinic. she is treated veterans of war extending back to world war ii, and during the time she has done research on ptsd and its treatment. for the past five years she also served as a supervisor. before joining the va, dr. stone worked for several years over here at the university hospitals in the anxiety disorders program doing research in psychotherapy. next to her is ron who spent a year tour in vietnam, acting both as a platoon sergeant and a platoon leader in two different light infantry units. during the tour come here and four bronze stars for valor. upon returning to the state, he spent another 18 months in the company honor guard of the old guard and during the time, he participated in many funerals for fellow soldiers who died in

vietnam. after military service, he found college life stifling. imagine that. so he went to work as an arborist, which became his career for 30 years. during these years, ron also studied martial arts, earning a fifth level black belt. so should problems arise of here -- [laughter] he also led the community and traveled extensively throughout the country by motorcycle, and he studied buddhism. as individual counseling as a grass worker. ron has read, written and thought long and deeply about the lives of combat veterans, especially how their lives are irretrievably changed by their experience. next is brian o'toole who is an epidemiologist with real

interest and mental health and psychiatric epidemiology with the focus on post-traumatic stress disorder and psychological adjustments following trauma. he has worked in veterans' issues since his time at the australian agent orange studies in the early 1980's and subsequently he initiated and led the first epidemiological health study of any returned servicemen and women in australia. the vietnam veterans health study. he was an author of the first evaluation report on the fledgling vietnam veterans' counseling service and subsequently was invited to become a member of the department of veterans affairs governing committee of the vvs for 18 years with funding from the australian national health and by the council he has recently completed a follow-up study of the vietnam veterans three decades after the war and has completed field work for an adjunct study of veterans' wives and partners, from which

preliminary results are now emerging. jason is the integrated ethics primm officer at the cleveland louis stokes va medical center and the director of ethics consultation at case western reserve university's center for biomedical ethics at metro health medical center, where he serves as a clinical ethicist. he's a graduate of the cleveland fallujah and advanced bioethics and has served as the william lyons chair in professional ethics of the united states air force academy. his book, quote cutter was on and just war tradition," was published in 2007. he served over 18 years and active and reserve components of the military, including four years in the united states air force as a military working dog handler. his current research focuses or his current research focus includes the reintegration of

military members into civilian life and influence of the military culture on the expectations and experiences of patients in the v.a. health care system. max mehlman is the director of the law medicine center case western reserve university school of law and the professor of biomedical ethics here in the school of medicine. prior to joining the faculty in 1984, professor mehlman practiced law with arnold and porter in washington, d.c., where he specialized in federal regulations health care and medical technology. he's the author and editor of seven books and numerous articles on subjects including "the ethical, legal and social implications of advances in human genetics." ethical and legal aspects of the patient position relationship and "medical malpractice reform." last but not least, christine

borgelt doherty with children with emotional and behavi3 borgelt doherty with children with emotional and behavioral. in addition she works closely with families and professionals to collaborate on methods to improve warning and quality-of-life for those individuals and their families. dr. borgelt worked at quality living incorporated in nebraska from august, 1997 to may, 21. first is a doctoral and then as director of clinical services. in january of this year, she rejoined the leadership team as the director on the east coast representative and working from her home in virginia, she represents them throughout the eastern united states. also in this year, and quite relevant to this panel, she's completed three textbook chapter is regarding a traumatic brain injury that addresses squall transitions from efiks and survivors psycho social

challenges. okay. thank you. okay, we're going to start, and i will just ask the very simple question that many of us thought would be both basic income and yet get into deep issues to start with. from your different perspectives , what is war healing? >> it's the hard way to start. >> is this working? okay. we take people from civilian society. it takes a year to turn them into a soldier. we send them out to do the dirty work for the country. and then they come home.

they all come home and changed. war changes in the -- individuals. i think the constitution recognizes the right to the pursuit of happiness. but when you are changed by the war, the pursuit of happiness becomes very, very difficult. and so, what is healing perhaps to me is to regain that sense of society, that sense of legality, and quality, of the spirit of the mind to enable you to assimilate, comeback with the war experiences, assimilate them and then get on with your lives in the pursuit of your own development and happiness. have i said anything controversial?

[laughter] perhaps something simple. >> i think it becomes important to make because oftentimes when we think of war healing and we integrating, we have this kind of simple picture that we send people off to the war and when they are done what we need to do is take them and put them back in their lives and do what we can to kind of set them on the path they would have been if the war hadn't interfered now. there are a couple problems with that. first of all, at least in the united states a lot of people that enter the military aren't actually in very good positions when they start. so a lot of them are on bankruptcy, homelessness, they have a lot of social issues to start with. and so, you know, we need a model that puts them at a good foundation. another thing it does that

military service and war changes people, there's lots of negative consequences but there's also a lot of positive changes as welcoming and this is why i think the way you described it so well is because we want them to be able to deal with experiences and take what's beneficial for them and keep it and move forward with it to make their lives better come at the same time allowing them to deal with the parts that are going to cause them harm. >> let me follow-up and see if this will help bring this question even more forward. if each of you had to point to a simplification of war healing and the society that you are from, we have an international committee here, so i'm going to put it in that way. what would that simplification

be? and how is it that you discovered it? what did you see the was simplified about the way our society or your society might look at war healing? >> let me start there. one of the things i have objected to the most is simplifying the process of war healing into a by mary way of looking at it and that we go to a process, the person is healed from the war. and rather than say i used to work irretrievably change, it deliberately, because my life was changed in ways the will never be retrieved. now, some of the things i've learned from my combat experience have been a great benefit to me. some have been very much not so. so, since 9/11 what i've noticed a specially is the transformation to describing people who serve in the military

as selfless heroes. and i know many people who've gone into the military out of a great sense of patriotism and duty and service. however, a vast number of people go into, especially the enlisted ranks, out of economic necessity and opportunity necessity, which is something very different. and so, i have to look at this within this context that the people in my experience during vietnam, the people in my platoon, were the young man who had the least opportunity in our society, economically and socially, because we made a deal with the middle class and upper class that we would leave their sons alone and take the less advantaged, especially after attack, in order to maintain political tranquillity. now currently, we have an all

volunteer service, which in theory has many admirable attributes. in reality, some less so. so, we have a small minority of the population doing, as brian said, the dirty work for our society and we are not investing their lifelong need for attention afterwards. if we accept the myth that people join the military out of patriotism and service, we also have to accept that african americans are twice as patriotic and twice as willing to do service than the whites who have to accept that hispanics are two and a half times more willing to do service and the patriotic than whites, and we have to certainly accept that all the children of senators are somewhat less patriotic than

those who aren't senators. [applause] [cheering] and we would have to accept that in the enlisted ranks, has less than 1% of enlisted ranks have college that the uneducated, relatively are much more patriotic than those with education. now, i'm just throwing that out to stir the waters. and i hope my new friend isn't too upset with me for saying that. so, healing becomes very problematic because one, we have a society who says i'm going to quickly solve, let's do this job and get this done. and number two, most of the people, such as myself and many of my new friends in this group, came back with limited resources to access what was available to us. so i see healing as a lifelong

process towards regaining some equanimity in a functional life. >> cheryl, did you want to speak? >> yes. my feelings are so complex. you have had firsthand knowledge. i have had second hand knowledge. i have sat and listened for 12 years, and so on know a lot of things. first of all, when i -- and again i'm going to be a little provocative here -- i wonder about the concept of healing because i don't think that ptsd or trauma related things are a pathology. i think the art and normal response to horror, and i dare

anybody out there who hasn't been there to go out there and give it a try and see how you turnout. i listen to the news, i hear people talk, i hear people make judgments. i was there in the 60's. although imet had a slightly different attitude. my father, at 17-years-old, joined, ran away from home and joined the canadian air force, where he flew in battles over britain, when america joined he went to fight ruml. after that he flew in the raid and he was a flying tiger. and later, a few years later, he died in a plane crash. okay. my mother was a sergeant in the marines. my brothers, cousins, my nephews, etc., were in the surface. we marched in parades on veterans' day. my father specter and my

mother's picture or in my office that right there i think says something or at least it does to me. anyway, the people that i see i agree with all of you have said so far. i think you are a changed person when you come back from the war. i think you see things no matter how much training you have, no matter how much indoctrination you have, no matter whether you are patriotic are not in the first 15 minutes of a five-year fight, you learn something that it takes the rest of us and we never really learned, at least 50 or 60 years to learn and that is to come face-to-face with morality and the fact the world is chaos. there is no order. we impose order and the people you believe might not necessarily have been telling you the whole truth and you do

things you never thought you would do. you see people do things you never thought you would see people do, and in order to face up to this experience, and not die of course, you cannot face up to it and die, or you can become numb and you become closer to your squad then you are two other people you may ever meet in your life on a certain level. and you have crossed a line. you have been allowed to kill people. that's not a line most of us cross i think in in the area when a person goes across the line they are forever changed. and then when you come back and you are back with your same old buddies and your wife and your kids or whatever and your parents and looks different,

very different, it is then on a microlevel hopefully your job with or without help, love, support to integrate within yourself, and new learning with your old learning which is often of the crux of the great problem because-year-old earning made you happy and you were lighthearted and had friends and so forth and he believed in god and the authority and on the other side is different. savitt healing begins -- i don't know where it begins, but i think at the end you can look back and say we are dealing in the healing is when a person can accept the whole of themselves and they can bring that whole into the world in an efficacious

way as best they can, hopefully they will be successful and you realize that what is between entering the world and success is a long detailed road and some are successful and some are not successful. and suffering is without end. >> to ago that, cheryl's print of pathology is critical to how we have reacted to the whole idea of war healing and healing in general and it's certainly come to the forefront in rehabilitation where there should be a finality you should be done at some point even the soldiers experiencing minor brain injuries or tauter after a year you want of symptoms and that isn't necessarily the case. so this idea that it is a pathology there is something we are going to diagnose and fix

and you are going to be done with it the terms of healing may mislead us you heard in every response so far this sense of integration of self, taking your experiences and pulling them into your own identity and it is a journey and then i think that is one of the things that not just in the brain injury world with ptsd with the return from war it is a lifelong journey and i know that ron touched on that and i think that the word heeling kind of trips that a little bit. >> let me add one thing to this and see where this takes the question. we are on the first question and we are trying to walk around it and see what we think of it. it seems the assumption and the question is about the combat veterans of him or herself who is dealing with, according to the term healing, but as many of

you know from your research, there is of course the circles of affiliation around the combat veteran, and as we have seen in this conference itself of the summit, some of the healing that goes on between the combat veteran and the former enemy combat veteran and noncombatant combat zone and there's also the suggestion that there's something about society i put it in scare quotes because it is so abstract that it doesn't quite get what it's done or what it has to deal with, and i'm summarizing and that makes me wonder if there's not some sense in which healing is also needed beyond the veteran, the souls of

with of the legation around the veteran, the former enemy, the noncombatants and so on. so the question is to whom is he yelling important and highways healing different based on the different from your experience or in the process of it. >> so in other words it is a question we talk about what is war healing, but to whom and what are the differences in the understanding of the term, and in particular looking at our society and its public discourse are there simplifications and invisibility. am i making myself clear or is it too complicated? >> i think i can nibble on that.

>> one of the things we've talked about and experienced the last couple of days is how important it is for me as a veteran to come back and impact society. needless to say in vietnam that didn't exist. so on the individual level it's important that many of us who were in the enlisted ranks did not come from well formed families or communities or societies. so having -- not having a fallback what's important i think and i want to take from the admiral's comments i've sworn to the constitution, and i'm very grateful for richard

nixon -- sidetrack. when i came back and stood behind richard nixon as a potted plant in the white house for 19 months, and listening to this guy and watching him work convinced me i was no longer going to work for his military. i was stunned. i was going to be a career by. i'm not fighting anymore wars. i'm done. but the issue was my society then and my society now is not choosing war with good reason with intention that holds water. a simple soldier should be able to save this war is worthwhile, and my society supports it wholeheartedly. but i'm doing these things really in defense of my constitution that i was steeped in. i find it very problematic for us one to be free integrated when that's not so.

i find that it's really difficult for us to be part of our society as a whole being again. when our society refuses to look at the caskets, refuses to look at the bill and fortune, refuses to look at the long-term cost of our ventures. we can do a great deal of work as individuals to get through our lives as somewhat fashion and most of the guys i serve with have functional lives. we go to work, we have careers, get married, have kids, retired, motorcycles, we do all these things. but we always have the sense that we are out of step with the rest and have set back to the doctor don't welcome me home, i didn't leave my home. the home didn't increase our efforts to to get so i find as

being at war under those conditions then or now problematic and healing problematic because of that. >> i actually have a question. i wonder if my colleagues on the panel have a view as to what your healing is easier with an all volunteer army or a conscripted army or it doesn't make any difference? >> it may be true that for certain elements of the military force that they don't necessarily come from the children were the centers but that is the enlisted. we call them the irregulars. the regular army. the last time that we had the conscription would there was no issue of them volunteering the certainly ideas you could have gotten out of it if you really

want to. but the reality was that's not true. that conscripted people randomly selected by wasn't. patrick has been looking after me perhaps. but in the work that i've been doing, particularly in the differences between the regular enlisted and the national servicemen, and you know what i find that the regulars were generally a little bit older. they are the ones in command of the platoon. the national service men, generally younger so when you look at them for 30 years down, the age are showing that the regular soldiers as a group are generally not as well physically as the national servicemen. they are still young, fit.

and that's served for two years. some of them did several tours. some of them got a discharge on the way home. but when you look at the mental health, no difference. so, there is a difference here. it's when the conscript, the draft and the volunteers and it is partly due not unnecessarily to the war. it may be the length of time they spend with 60 kilograms jumping out of helicopters and doing all the things people have to do in the army but when you come to the mental health there is no difference does a minimum of time with some experiences will do the same kind of damage.

>> what was the question again? >> if we think that healing is easier when there was a conscripted military versus an all volunteer military and the damage may be the same, but i wonder about the healing process. does it make a difference? does that suggest anything for the future policy in this country? >> i actually would like to kind of take you back on something that was set before the during vietnam that the discharge returning troops at the airport i actually think in some sense it's a good metaphor for what goes on so the government spends a lot of time turning civilians and two soldiers. he spent 40 years in the military you're going to spend 40 years training so there is no point in your career when they say okay you're done you can go

ahead and sit this one now. but when we return the soldiers to civilian life we dropped them off at the airport. there is no thinking that well, look we spent two years turning this person into a combat veteran. you know, it's clear to take at least that long to return him into the civilian world. the other point it made me think of is when we integrate civilians into the military model, the military model was fixed and so a lot of the process is taking a square peg and grinding them down until the ground and sticking them to the -- into a round hole. when we return people to civilian life we can't do that.

so it can't be just how do we change returning soldiers so they can adjust to the civilian world? their families, their societies, other communities, they have to adjust as well because now they are round and we can't fix that square hole and some people have to kind of move in. we need to meet in the middle. it can't be just a one-sided transition. >> also in addition to that, what happens when someone goes over the line and becomes a different person in the meantime their family is also moving on. it's not like they are sitting in the still. you take somebody out of the mix and in a couple of years goes by and they keep having a life and make friends, they close the gap while that person is gone so what the person refers to is never the same. they are not the same, it's not

the same, so it is the matter, and just again, all the more microlevel with husbands and wives and children and so forth, that is the point that has to be recognized in the bitterness and combination of bitterness and love and hatred and anger and frustration on both sides has to be dealt with. both sides have to be willing to talk peace and change. >> i want to go back to what jason was saying because i was under the impression we don't just drop them off their perch but there is now at least an effort to make a sort of gradual reintegration if you can call it that with a series of opportunities or steps to the of the -- last week i was talking to a former marine who did a couple tors and iraq and said

that when i asked him about this he said was very perfunctory. so i guess my question is if it is perfunctory would seem like a no-brainer to do something more meaningful, and i wonder what's going on. >> [inaudible] >> in the sense there was a real commission and australia in agent orange the declared agent orange was not guilty but one of the things it pointed out is the way the soldiers retrieved it would take a national service man training for your comments and hinault to vietnam for a year and then on his discharge papers, the discharge reason would be not suited to be a soldier. and this is institutionalized within the military. so you have the military -- this is something they've been fighting with for years that you have attitudes within the military itself, within the

government, within the society and the media when we have politicians leading demonstrations against the war and the 1960's for a sample, then you have to cut to the family that is in on their own for eight [cheering] of time. we know this happened after the second world war when men went away the women started to drive the tractors and planned the fields. when the men came back, we had a conflict. a conflict of the roles. there are many issues here as to the attitudes of the government, attitudes of the services themselves, attitudes of the families, attitudes of the society, the media and so on. as we have a many headed beast that has to be false or dealt with on a number of different fronts. >> okay. we are getting close to the 45 minute mark, and so i would like to open it up and, you know, it's possible for us to come back to some of the questions and i would like professor mehlman's initiative, and i would encourage you to also have

that to be able to ask each other questions and be able to ask the audience questions. i think there's already somebody waiting; is that correct? please, would you mind introducing yourself at least briefly for people who don't know you? >> my name is susan and i'm from canada. we have a lot of the same issues only on a much smaller scale. i wonder if any of you can suggest a strategy to deal with what i think is the coming onslaught of iraq and afghanistan veterans that we haven't even seen the magnitude yet. or are we going to land along the next 40 years liquid with vietnam and put out the brush fires. there and why gilmore are committing suicide and becoming homeless? i wonder if any of you have a strategy in mind. specs for this domingo those who don't learn from history are condemned to repeat the errors.

no, i have no strategy. i don't think there is a magic bullet. >> by the way, i work for the va but i am not here in the capacity of to represent the va. my thoughts are my own. but i don't know what to extent there is, although as if it is my stand on suicide is quite different than the institutional imperatives. it was kind of funny i went to the cleveland clinic the other day and the hand of the little computer and i stood at the desk with 14 people around me and they gave me a stylus and i was supposed to check off the boxes and i looked and it was you're going to kill yourself today. was a suicide checklist. and i said well that says it all. because, you know, -- but i do

know that there is an effort, however effective or ineffective this, for the va addressing a lot of money getting spent on homelessness and suicidology. i don't have any idea how effective it is or if it is reaching populations were, you know, doing the right thing. so. >> [inaudible] >> i don't know in terms of broad strategies. i wish i had that, that suggestions from being in the private sector i think some of what you see in the mental health world is folks in the private sector who have models for, example, brain injury for long-term handling of helping

someone go through the journey of solving the brain injury long-term, and i have had the experience more than i would like to tell you where someone, a veteran or a spouse has contacted me or brain injury association somewhere in the country with a frustration jogging to access services i think the services are improving. i think we have seen a lot of effort the last couple of years especially in the issue of brain injury and ptsd and being aware of suicide and the impact on children. but i think there are those of us in the private sector saying let us help. and it is a lot to manage cannot manage but a lot to maneuver. and so, to get through the political leaders and the financial leaders and all of this difficult and where a strategy has worked there has been a commander who es said

this needs to happen. so i think we continue to partner, but i think it's important that we use all the resources we have in the country to put forward solutions. >> a think the most important thing we can do know is recognizing that we are not even close to having a solution. so a couple years ago i was activated but wasn't deploy and i spent about a year in north carolina and from the last stages in my discharge was sitting there with a company clerk and ask have you ever killed anybody, you know, are you suicidal, do you feel like you're suffering from post-traumatic stress? have you been the victim of sexual assault, so there is this checklist of things that would obviously send out flags the tiny assistance, and in my case,

none of them were applicable, but i have a hard time imagining a a 23-year-old kid from alabama talking about these issues and the last thing we want to think is that this is accomplished something important. we need to make sure that we are actually following up with the people we think there is a reason to follow-up with and not just have to be a checklist as a part of the process when we are moving people out the door. >> as far as i have any personal ways perhaps that's what you were talking about to address suicide i would say first of all to the family is your great loss but it is not your fault that you did not pick up all the

details that now you have in hindsight if i have only noticed this, if i had only noticed that it would have been different. i think all the things we are talking about today cause to spare and a person working out these issues of identity, the horror of what they have seen a fitting back in, substance abuse, there's just a number of things that make it hard and what can be done to help them hold on can be done i think by other veterans, most importantly i think very good with their fellow veterans that are the chief source of being saving somebody. i think if you've got a veteran in question they often don't like que nosing into their

business. a network is a good thing if a person comes back to a strong family. i have a family that i work with. the father lives on the beaches of normandy, like 89-years-old he crawls into bed and cry is when there is a thunderstorm. his son was on and i shall not mention the place is here in combat on a great destroyer that caught fire and virtually everyone, not everyone but many people died and the people on that ship were traumatized and his son was not in iraq in another death squad because the miracles of modern telephones could call us back. his grandfather said i can't do this. i can't do the body count anymore. i can't forget the dead people, i can't count the women and children, but what he had was three generations of a very,

very tight ethnic family that held him together. now family is good, love is good , brotherhood is good, sisterhood is good. and i could go on and on. that's just a short answer. >> before i get to the next person as some are listening i actually think there is another strategy that was wrong but i think was echoed by a number of you and this is coming off of your comment that it's important to know what you've done as a veteran has been for a purpose or that if one should then that later on think the purpose was mistaken or fall in some way that the society that you are a part of takes responsibility for having made a collective decision for asking for telling you depending on whether it is

construction or volunteer service to carry out that intention. and what i hear what your particular question, i think there is a real large question at least for the society that my society, american society which is to say that have we taken responsibility for having made that decision? and if we haven't, what does that do to people who are returning? just one last thing and i'm trying to echo what you're saying. there are many dimensions, psychological dimensions to despair. but at the level of the philosophical analysis, despair involves not having hope, not having an object that one can obtain or a good that one can see coming. and if one feels like ones and how your life has been folded into a kind of emptiness, because the society that sent one has kind of like this or looks the other way or turns on

snoop dog or something ridiculous, then this is a problem. so, life and you're talking about -- i think there's also the social dimension of claiming responsibility for the act. >> one is the last time you declared war? >> they covered the issue in this morning -- if i had a strategy of my first response because some of those bitter vietnam veterans is don't depend on the va or the government strategy. [laughter] not that the va doesn't do marvelous work especially -- >> i don't speak for the va. i do marvelous work. [laughter] >> would be a national strategy

for somebody to fund training and deep listening for all the families of all the people who serve. the willingness to say tell me about your experience and listened without flinching. [applause] but because the expression was used this morning we are at the pointy end of the stick, but i was taught a different version which goes the fling at the tip of the candle. i burn brightly with a war but i went to war for the whole societies of the whole society has the obligation to listen to my experience and that strategy alone was to me to be the simplest most effective. >> my name is tom -- is the

better? i don't like microphones. i am tom, retired marine lieutenant and a retired high school english teacher and today i work with debt burdens of a homeless shelter in ohio and i'm also part of the journey home which is a branch of the doctor's group and we reach out to the iraq determines. of what you just said, right on. i want to say i -- one preface, all i applaud you for the work that you're doing and the dedication that you have to the healing process. i'm not sure i always agree with everything but i applaud you. my little heart his been going pittard sadr since the panel began. i just want to make two statements and you can respond if you want or you cannot. that is your choice.

number one, i don't think the army does nothing. i think the army, the military does nothing for soldiers when they get out. i've talked to too many to get a recently renewed for times article maybe two months ago i wrote a poem about it in fact where soldiers have gone -- they are told if you've got a problem, especially with iraq and afghanistan debts, if you've got a problem we will help you come and fort carson, maybe, where they had a group of soldiers who went for help and were not only ridiculed by the sergeant's who were in charge of them but they were also drug and medicated to death. i.t. -- i can't stand medicating people who have psychiatric issues. we need to talk and the young

man who has the bronze star said so well we need to talk. both of you. so, that being said, i really don't -- from my own experience i don't -- the military says they are doing this and that for these kids when they are being discharged, but i -- that's nice words on paper that we see to the public to get the public to believe that everything is cool and these guys are being taken care of when they are being discharged, whereas in reality at least personally i do not believe they are in any sense of the word. secondly, the thing that got me at the beginning. i think sometimes we have a tendency as professionals to

overgeneralize the statement was made more than once by the panel with reference to the class of individuals who are drafted versus joined, and maybe they might have issues prior to that. i know that i am not real happy with the va and some of the decisions they've made along that line with post-traumatic stress disorder, the diagnosis that have come up. i think we need to be careful when we save boards like a lot of our military are made up of this certain class of individuals or many or most doherty anything like that because we are unique as individuals, and i think that we need to be at least ideally treated as unique individuals. and sometimes our government facilities see us as a group and

i personally do not like being spoken of in generalities. climate person. but all that is great to see and great to wish and i also know the reality of that is not always the case. ..

and please let the audience understand that. thank you so much for being here today and this entire week has just been a trip for me. so i'm really happy with it. thank you. >> thank you. would anyone like to respond? >> yes. >> okay. >> thanks for those comments. it's really much appreciate that. and that they work back if i could. i'm unique on this panel and i'm the one loan nonacademic person. and you know, i'm just a dropout. but having said that, even a country boy can read the data and parse through that. you like at the demographics of who's in the service and we can

infer certain things. it doesn't infer anything about who we are as individuals. i know that in my platoon, which was a long time ago, 40 years ago, i had a long range of individuals. and for the most part, regardless of their economic or education background, they did right action. they served with courage and did things that to me just are unimaginable today. but the one thing i did learn in the infantry and learned later through reading is that our military is built under the model of interchangeable part. and so one of the fundamental lessons i've learned is that as a human being, regardless of my sterling individual characteristics, i'm disposable. now, i could be angry about that and say i'm a throwaway. i choose to use it as a source of strength could what that

means i'm responsible for my behavior and my life. how do i find the tools to do that? and what i'm suggesting also to think about, we've been talking about ptsd. and i think we have to separate our clinical -- people who need clinical health in the majority of others. some of the people -- i just speak from my own experience. some of the people of my platoon had been diagnosed and it disability for clinical ptsd. most of us have it. we went and ran her functional affably okay lives. but when we sit around a table at reunions and chair, then there's a clinical person sitting there with their checklist, everyone could hit almost every diagnostic criteria and put it in her pocket and went about her life successfully. we didn't do it because of what the military did for us or because of what our society did

for us. we did it in spite of it. and we did it because as individuals, we had fortitude to do it. i have every faith that most of the people who serve in the military today, regardless of what i perceive as the inequalities about the way society is doing this, we'll have the resources to, over time, achieve a good life. and if we can shorten that process, we can help that process, that is our obligation as citizens, let alone his veterans to help with that, to pony up for that part of what we've decided to do. >> okay, fair, thank you for being so patient. i don't know if you folks are waiting in line would find this easier, but i'd be happy to 30 speakers list over here. you could be turning down the mine incident that down. would you like that? i'm going to do this and if you could stay in the order they

choose to an finite, that that would be good. >> jeremy, what are you doing? this is a completely different issue. we tuck what society has come up with many times. i'm still angry about my society because i don't think it's society that sends people off to war. it's not society that does that. i'm angry about a number of things in my society. i'm angry about things like we have more suicide every year and we have murders equaled death. where is the similar amount of resources put into preventing suicide that is putting to preventing motor vehicle deaths? and a cynic might simply say you prevent suicide, you know, make

money. but every time you run a red light, every time you go over the speed limit, your making money. now, that the cynical view perhaps. but it is not society that's doing it. it is individuals who are in decision-making positions that are doing it. i think society and government are quite different things. >> thank you. sir? >> my name is steve perry. i spent eight years as a united states officer army and combat veterans from vietnam. what this group has addressed, has attempted to address nic has the dynamic of this whole healing thing is focused on the veteran. i think though that we're missing part of the equation here and i just like everybody's comments on that. and that as i can speak for my own standpoint and i suspect i speak for many combat veterans

and that we, all of us, have an overriding sense of betrayal. and that regardless of what happens to us or how we're treated by society or whatever or how we try to address our combat issues or memories and events, what have you, there doesn't seem to be any kind of atonement understand parts of the government to place us in harms way. there is no -- there's no accountability for the political leaders that made the decision that many of us have come to believe for invalid. and so, we all had this monkey on our back, if you will, that we are the ones that are being blamed for all of this does and we're broke in and we have to get fixed and everything.

but who's -- who's responsible? and half-day or have they not been called to task with this? just comment if you would, please. >> partner in silence. [laughter] >> not me -- [inaudible] >> and be economic, it was one congressman's son who served in the field as an infantry officer. clarence long deferred for my home district. great guy. and hopefully we're going to see more veterans in congress so there will be more accountability. i'm sorry. i just don't expect -- i was talking to dr. french about this. i don't take personal offense

that i was a. you can't pay attention to individually you have to pay attention to the mission. cannot say the way our society uses military much different to the way our society uses labor or economic resources or natural resources. it is something to be used for an end that, in my opinion, and i speak my for myself, not an institution, favors a very small percentage at the expense of many. so i don't have any expectation of accountability, especially as as was pointed out this morning, only 40% of us bothered to say very strongly to the people who supposedly represent us, we want you to make different decisions. we want you to take different

actions. so the old expression is if we want to change that experiment, we have to change our input. and we can't give up and say we can't do that. >> i would challenge -- [inaudible] >> i think you just supported my position. having said that, i will go vote every time and i will encourage everyone i know to go vote. and our system, that is the only shot we have in changing, really changing. and i mean more than both, it is right, call and talk to your congresspeople, whether it's on my local level or the national level. without saying anything to younger people it's read, be informed, the act does.

i think i heard that does this morning. read, be active. if you're not informed, you'll repeat history. if you don't take action locally in the state level and national level, they'll repeat the same mistakes. we have a responsibility to do that. we can't say no. we've given too much to say no, it can't be done. if you and i have been to war and we know the price, we have voice that has resonance, how spores, has power. we need to use it. we have to use it in our families, and our communities and in our society to create batch range so more people don't suffer, so the earth doesn't suffer. we have to do that. we have to never quit. we have to never stop trying. >> i don't want to hold up the

show. i don't want to argue with you. [inaudible] >> improvised. it will come. you've heard that before. >> you see in australia voting is compulsory. >> is it really? >> yes. >> okay, the problem with that is you still get rubbish. [laughter] >> and the longest election in australia had a wonderful retired politician say i did not hear certain things are in the campaign. i did not hear the word education. i heard training, job rating, not education. i didn't hear those kinds of things. what i heard was xenophobia, old

people. i heard refugees. i heard of mining tax. these are not the issues that are salient to the majority of the people. these are the issues the politicians were choosing to fight the battle on. >> okay. you've been very patient. just, shelley is going to comment about six or seven people. is she just cannot be made an interesting comment. and i would just like to market because these is one of the areas where the complexity of the panel is starting to appear. the shelley, i'll let you come up when it's your time. i'll let you respect the order. i think you're coming up and feeling passionate to do that indicate something, which is are we talking politics are we talking healing? shall say more about that later. but i would just like to point out, i was also thinking a similar version of that question. i was thinking here we are talking about -- we started off talking about the healing of combat veterans and were

full-scale into social and political philosophy or social and political critique. i think it's worth being in being a little more rigorous about again whether or not that should be the case. and if it's the case, why exactly is it the case? i think it's important to note that with the exception of professor mehlman, i don't think we had this thing go political scientist of some kind. i think you're a political scholar. what happened is he pushed us into thinking about politics and social structure and bureaucracy and so on. so this is something we may want to explore later. thank you for being so patient. >> i want to qualify my question. my question is how do we keep the killers accountable to hearing. and i'm going to qualify that by saying my name is cassie schumacher and i am the daughter of a vietnam veteran. i grew up around vfw post. i participated in cleveland in

1988. and at that time, my father, his ptsd got triggered. and in 1999, as a 20 some year old college student, i had to sit in a courtroom and hospitalized my father against his will to the va. and at the end of a 30 day stay, which he ended up escaping from, i talk with the nurse. and she said, we confiscated weapons that he was making. and i got on the phone with a psychiatrist and he said to me, he's doing much better. we're going to release them. that is unacceptable and it's substandard care. thank you. >> i agree. i agree. let me just finish. we just completed a study on the intervention and psychosis.

now, schizophrenia is not something you can treat with words. one of the sad things we found up to six months, 30% of people did not have a diagnosis that would not be acceptable in terms for for heart diseases or any other bodily system, but it seems to be okay and bodily health. you can see that because we don't have enough research. we don't know about the way the brain works or whatever. but is just not acceptable and i agree with you. the mac hello, my name is tom. tom campbell frowned montana. i'd like to talk a little bit about an atmosphere of culture and of trauma, how to charm all its individual, and a couple in a family and a community and as

a nation and how i think there is a denial about really was honestly going on. the military or the politicians say we have a nuclear weapon in iraq and they know it's not true and they keep doing it. and so, it's kind of like a lot of lies and like all the politicians, they are all kind of lying about themselves and everybody knows they're lying. but it's kind of a lot of dishonesty and a lot of dysfunction and just regular culture. and it's like we can even say i heard. like men aren't supposed to be heard as much as other people. and so, somehow this historical trauma, stuff that's going on today. it's kind of interesting vietnam, people there are opening up and talking and sharing with us.

and so, some of us can share back and do some healing. but a lot of times they think there is so much cultural lying, cultural brainwashing where were not honest and we don't talk straight. we don't even share who we are really because we're wondering what other people think we are or other people are trying to make us think or something. or we're not even worth stealing and there's nobody they are. or my humanities en masse is financial poverty that's dysfunction. and it's so dishonest that we don't really even look at it and say hey, that's a person back from vietnam are back from iraq. but you know, we don't have the money or we don't have the energy to help him or her. the essential use of women in the military and the and thomas

don't tile is so much lying, so much dysfunction that finally getting in a small group and talking and sharing real-life stuff is good. hey, that feels really good because it's not the normal. and it's like, the health service is. the veteran is just a point. she's kind of wound. but it's everything else that's not hoping. or the life, or the money. it's all about money. we're not going -- we can't afford it. and we can't even afford to tell the people what the military costs and the consequences yet and so, it's like we are tom. or we go along and somebody is making money or somebody's benefiting, but a lot of people are. and so, i think a lot of it is so much honesty. this needs to be so much honesty

and communication. that's all. [applause] >> thoughts on that, christine? >> i want to be careful to honor what you said. i have had the wonderful experience. i just feel compelled to share. over the past year working with the military and civilian folks on military and civilian healing, there are when you get the person who is suffering and you connect with family members and you connect with metal case managers, military medical case managers are folks in the coalition do a tremendous amount of care management for their soldiers, there are a ton of people and pockets of places, tend to be nonprofit, trying really hard to be honest and to be helpful. and so, i just want to share that i've seen some really good

stuff from small pockets in places where there are individuals great if you get it back to you and me sitting down and trying to figure out well, we've got this friend or this person in our community, there's a lot of care going on at that level. and i choose to live there because it's a lot easier than living up here were some of our questions are. i do want to share their are some good is going on as well. >> okay, thank you. >> i would actually say, one thing you brought up his military trauma. and that actually is a really good point. the focus of this panel is combat veterans. the military service in general and the experiences people have can have profound impacts on veterans, whether or not they are in combat. so oftentimes is peacekeeping missions. oftentimes it disaster relief,

where they encounter horrific things. often times it's a matter of a personal violation and attack. and it's important to keep in mind as well that we have an obligation as great to these veterans as we do to the combat veterans as well. the other thing and, you know, i've had several friends who told me when i get back to their families, when they get back to their communities, you know, they recognize that they have issues. but from their perspective, you know, their families are broken. their communities are broken. and they don't feel as if their needs should come first, right? so they just got this charge they don't have a job. but most as important as getting their job back on track. and you know, i think in some places in the community, you know this is our attitude as

well. you know, were 10 years into the conflict. and i've encountered people that don't know that the conflict is still continuing. and it's also become an afterthought for lots of people. and they feel as if there's more pressing things. and it's important to keep those rolling in the forefront. >> thank you. [inaudible] >> -- and to be -- should being paranoid and jaded and so forth. and i'm not sure we are not all correct. sir, where are you? where did she go? okay, hi. i see a lot of whining. i see lies, and damned lies and statistics. but, i have to agree with you.

you need to look for pockets. i know people who are good, honest people. they are individuals or small groups of people. are not part of a mass government or mass political structure. and i think you need to find those people and grab them stay in that healthy plays of sincerity and trustworthiness. you'll know it when you see it if you open yourself up a little bit, okay? the problem of course is being that war is you don't trust many people, right? so you've got to open yourself up a little bit. but there are people, not your whole government, not all the political status -- [inaudible] can i tell my joke? i've been dying to say this.

and it has to do with the interest in healing and the interest with reintroducing the veteran. that isn't addressed to one single soldier in here. i want you to understand that. okay? it is somewhat into you people who are interested not in the trenches with the aftermath of war. and it is most certainly addressed to our larger society and governments who frankly on the whole appear not to give a unless i'm mistaken. have i missed something? if it isn't their son or daughter, why does it matter? but does anybody ever listen to garrison keillor? you know who he is? remember and that there is a pastor of the church -- of our lady of perpetual, what is that? responsibility. our lady -- the church of our

lady of perpetual responsibility. there's this pastor and he always gives his speech. and he does it about sex, but really it applies here. if you didn't want to go to minneapolis, why did you get on the train, okay? and other words, if you didn't mean something to happen, don't do it. don't start a war. things happen when you have a war. they always happen. they they always have happened. smarten up. okay? >> okay. josh clacks >> by name is josh due back from independence, ohio. i'm a student here. this past summer i worked at outback steakhouse. and one of the guys that i worked with, he was extremely nice. one of the waiters i connected with the most at work. when a big family would come in,

he would always love giving the little kids like coloring books and extra, you know, pop stay, and whatnot. and i ended up learning that he was a veteran of afghanistan and that he was diagnosed with ptsd and when he came back he had a guess a nasty divorce with his wife and because of that, in court, it was decided he was not capable of being -- of having sole care of his child because of his ptsd, and that his wife was able to just take the child away from him because of the ptsd. and i don't know all the fault, you know, core circumstances. not to get too political or to social issues, basically he wasn't able to have a lot of visitation with the child until he was back to normal. and i put them in quotes. so my question is, how do we know when someone is back to

normal again, when their ptsd is cured? >> that's a great question. >> if i may, i started with a different is perhaps. n.a.b. is influenced by medical views, their ptsd is sometimes treatment resistant in the same with the brain is too good. it won't let you forget. that issues, the stimulus you see, those kinds of things can trigger these events. a story that a veteran once told me, he had returned and he was with his fiancée, now his wife

and brother and his wife. and it was in downtown melvyn. the car backfired. one reaction as he hit the deck. and he felt like such a fool. is that a common thing? you've had that experience. until somebody just materialized out of the crowd, taken by hand and said he'd just been in iraq, have a nate? he said yeah, okay. it's all right. and then disappeared. okay, now that was a fresh psychological segment. that's very hard to abolish. but there are other parts of ptsd that can be amenable to an intervention. my dad to is that he ptsd will go away. so for legal case is hinging on

somebody being cared, though not a hopeless curse. it is getting people to accept and understand their problem and to not engage in the kind of behaviors that become self destruct days. interpersonal violence with families. so you can help people to overcome some of these problems, but it won't go away. >> and built into that is also improving how we respond. so i suspect that most of us, when the person dies on the street, you know, we're like what the hack and were backing away rather than movie over to

help him in a period and it's still prevalent in the society, right? decreased combat that. i mean, this is what people think about when they think about posttraumatic stress. >> ticking time bombs. >> yeah, absolutely. part of it is educating people that's not the case. and that's unfortunate because i know -- i mean, one of the unfortunate side effects is, you know, the careers that share average duty military best prepares you for being a firefighter, police officer, these positions that people now if they want to seek treatment related to mental health that all, it would significantly negatively impact their ability for these positions. and so the stigma that we as a society hold in general towards

mental health and in particular towards things that poster manic stress have a huge impact on the willingness of veterans to seek help. >> so if i could summarize, part of the problem is surrounding world is itself not normal. if i normal we mean healthy, it's normal -- a savage, and statistical. it's the norm, but it sure isn't healthy. her silence built-in or failed expectations about how to live with people who are dealing with trauma and so on. roger. >> is roger cran from hiram college. in addition to your backfire story, about 15 years after the vietnam war i was walking through the woods of arkansas with the vietnam veterans, a friend of mine and the trail was

so small that we had to walk single file. and i was talking up a storm and he was commenting on my watch for another 10 minutes and he wasn't answering me. and i turned around and he wasn't there. and so i turned and backtracked for probably a quarter of a mile and i found him frozen like a manic and, not moving. and in front of them, as they trail marker were three rocks piled on top of each other. and i later learned that evening that was a sign of a booby-trapped. and he saw it and immediately froze. and this was 15 years after the war. my question is, during the vietnam war in shortly about two years afterward i was a police officer in fort lauderdale, florida. and i started being sent on an inordinate amount of calls

allowing sites and vandalism undisturbed as involving vietnam vet. i discovered that almost every one of these calls was started by someone picking on the vet, saying he was for having gone to vietnam and that nobody appreciated what he was doing. i couldn't believe the way our veterans were being treated. i actually became somewhat of a poor police officer because of that because anytime i start anybody who would say that i let them go. [applause] by my question is there a 55,000 people killed in the vietnam war, american soldiers. and afterward i understand there is about 55,000 committed suicide. this is a 10 year war. we're now facing another 10 year war. when these veterans come home

because they're not being dead or humiliated, but welcomed as heroes, might that help reduce the suicide rate that we might see or is the damage for more damage for more? >> i think that labeling people as heroes is actually an extra problem. i think it's another layer to work through. because if i'm a hero, what am i feeling like this for quite and statistically we know already that, for example, the homeless rate among veterans are showing up 10 years sooner than for vietnam. the homeless rate is twice the general population. the unemployment rate is twice the general population except for african-american veterans and hispanic veterans worth almost three times the general population. and the suicide rate is always way higher. we don't have accurate because

of suicide by motorcycle. i've been riding a bike since i came back. i haven't managed to do that yet. but there's all kinds of ways for young men and women who are having issues to harm themselves. but i see multiple deployments, more of a problem, not less. i'm very fortunate. most of us had one to her and we were done. our nephew has had three so far. >> that's a big problem, you know, when this war started off they said okay, we'll bring him home and they can see their families, which wasn't like the vietnam where he stayed for a year and you hardly ever talk to anybody. he wrote the memo. you never told them anything. he just said were doing fine. everything is tacky.

now, another was that young people coming in with three tours. notes for tours and five tours and six tours and then they can be called back if need be. and i don't think they're signing up. i could be mistaken, to take the place of those soldiers as we increase our military presence. and yes, i think there's going to be a tremendous impact because coming home, seeing what it's like and having to go back. i know one young man who is a son of the one of many of the sons and grandsons come back and i see it. like in vietnam when he went to enlist, especially if well, anybody, but if you are a draftee, you're supposed to come down. you thought you'd go back for christmas with your family and instead they had a bus waiting for you. you signed up, got on the bus and he was bi, bi, just in case

you change your mind. and in this case these guys came home and they were supposed to go back to that think that disembarkation point with summer in seattle may be. and they won't allow it to go on leave to see their families as they were afraid people would run away. so i think it's tremendous and these people, the young people who come back when they're doing that have a lot of profound problems. >> i think it's also to keep in mind it's not just young people. >> that's true. >> one of the folks i was activated with, we celebrated his 63rd day right before they shipped them off to iraq. >> well. >> back to ron's question -- rogers questioned enron's comments. i think it goes back to what we

were talking about earlier, we're listening is very important and inside of us imposing a label, you're a hero, you're a villain, whichever label. instead of us imposing knights, hearing the story and letting that person tell the story that were looking for strategy, a better strategy in terms of lower suicide. >> okay, let me just to a little bookkeeping. we've got roughly 20, 25 minutes left. there's four people left on the roster and then i think what i'd like to do because this conversation is done on many different points that seemed to be sometimes tenuously related to each other. and so one of the things i'd like you to do if we could go down the line after that and if each of you do please try to not make it too long, but a couple

minutes. and please reflect back if you were to each other into the room what it is that you are coming away with from this conversation or is there some indie feel has been insane and you really feel should be put in. i would appreciate it if you would do that. is that okay? sound like a good way to go? okay. i'm sorry i can't read the handwriting. starts with an h. yes, sir. [inaudible] >> because that's part of ptsd. and i'm not here to bash the va, but i want to tell you just two stories real quickly. i happen to live not too far from fort lewis, one of the largest army post. i talk to these guys. i ride a motorcycle with 30, 40 old guys. i'm 62. the reason i do that as it gets that close to them to them and i can talk to them and listen to

them and hear about their pain. it takes them three months to get into mental health in el paso after they're released military because all the talk is on there have left because the bureaucracy of having to fill a little chat marks. are you going to kill yourself? exactly what these people said. two weeks ago i had a 24-year-old marine who's been home for a year killed himself. he went to the va for mental health three times and didn't get it. and what i want to say as we've been in iraq for 10 years and we still haven't figured out there's mental health issues for these guys coming back? how long is it going to take? we're going to be in afghanistan long after i'm gone and we're still going to be discussing this. and when i came here i thought, you know, academia is great. he gives us an out away to talk about it. there's formula different symptoms of poster back stress.

some are better than others. some are worse. i was diagnosed with ptsd about six or seven years ago when i worked with that now. they can be controlled. they can be healed. but it's a soul thing. it's not a mental disorder. when you kill people, that spark of life inside you guys just a little bit. and the more you do that -- i was a door gunner in a helicopter for two years. i looked in the faces of the people i shot. and you don't get over that putting them on tour is seeing or talking to them once every six weeks. and i know somebody is going to disagree with me here, but i think george bush was a brilliant president. he didn't bring back the draft, therefore the majority of americans are paying attention to what we're doing to these young people. i've got pictures on my phone and you can look at these guys. they're dead. their soul is gone. and when he does save them. i'm saying right now there's a perfect storm developing. and if we don't do something and

do something with the va. dr. tic has a program that works. why won't the va pay attention and so most people to hand? i have no question. >> if i could just add to that really strong comment. i mean, the philosophical point is that where a panel that been focusing -- our talk has been focusing increasingly on politics. our expertise focuses on psychological and medical issues for the most part. but your claim is that this is a spiritual issue. >> yes, absolutely. >> exactly, said the point is -- no, exactly, so what do you have a panel think about that? i mean, are your profession structured in such a way you can even at knowledge the point that he was making? or maybe you can, but will your profession at knowledge at?

>> can we jump in? >> one more thing and i'll sit down. i spent three months last year in australia and i hung around a lot of ourselves and i talked to viet am small civilians and they had the same problems. so it's not just unique to us. >> thank you, sir. >> i can safely say i have no tears answers. and i think that treatments, therapies, and go. when i was first trained many years ago, when dinosaurs roamed the earth i tell my children. there was a least 142 types of psychotherapy is and god only knows how many there are now.

what psychotherapies and institutions are offered are part of policy and part of politics and no doubt part of who knows what bureaucracy, money, whatever that may be. currently the therapies which are being offered as in the general public are called evidence-based practices. this may mean nothing to you, but i'm going to come around to what she said. and they are based on several things. and this is kind of intellectual. i'm not an academic. i think a lot and i read a lot. all psychology is our of philosophy. they are trained to scientifically prove whether a philosophy and i will give you

an example, cognitive behavioral therapy is the explication of stoa to them of the stoics fall off of the, okay? and is trying to test whether this is good or not. the way people have over a million years thought about things, what turns out to be true or not. in addition, however, besides those arcane things, which are very intellectual and often very academic, those of us in the field, i myself for one have to say that everything i know about treatment i have learned from the detriments. everything i know i have learned from the veterans. i have certain skills. i have a certain personality. i have a certain dedication. in my day you hoped for a calling. to be called by god to have something good to do, okay? and i have to say in my small

group that those people were very dedicated. i can't say that i know what quote, heels, heels ptsd. i have watched you guys and i know it helps. and i use that in all my treatments. i read dr. tic's book. i heard him speak he for her. i may not agree with every word he says. he has different philosophy than i do. nonetheless i don't disagree with the word he says. okay, but there are different ways. and i will wait my summary till the end. if anybody else wants to speak. >> to your question of whether the fashion mag knowledged back, i think the american psychological association has come a long way in the last 10 or 15 years, especially in shifting from a medical model of

diagnostics to okay wait a minute, there's a lot of people out there talking ronnie mentioned some oaks move forward. a lot of people who are successful, even under extreme conditions, let's ask them what's working and let's figure out, you know, how to trans late to the folks who are struggling. and so, i think and cheryl i would agree, i think the profession has turned a corner, looking up the importance of optimism, the importance of spirituality, the importance of resilience. it's still pretty new to a lot of missionaries, but i think were getting there. >> i think we agree on some things and not on other things. i think for instance the word resilient is the thing which every single one of my veterans has always said no matter how sick and i do mean sometimes some of them are sick. but the resilience is often used as a pejorative word. what does that mean? so in a way they think that they

catchword. the only thing i have about depression in general is they think that it's easier than it is. >> absolutely. >> far easier and shorter than it is. they might guess. >> okay, thanks for that question. i think a lot more could be said. i'm just trying to get everyone in. pc, craig. >> it's truly a humble honor to be able to stand in front of such a distinguished panel. i have just a couple questions in regards to comments made earlier in your presentation. if i am hearing correctly, i thought i heard several times, we have no models or model currently adequate to address the issues we face here today.

if that is so, however, i find it so interesting that the military, dod, is still at utilizing the logistic -- logistical and tactical mentalities and strategies of the light of such a chief joe says, ynez pierce nation or chief to come some. and just as bewildering to me is the fact that the same first people of this land, the native americans also utilize well-known secret ceremonies such as the sacred spring and fall of the chuan, the warrior societies, the sacred sundance and gas, the studio do this, the illegal ghost dance.

sacred sweat lodges talking golds and other strategies to address the spiritual lives of their warriors. to integrate them into such societies like a gucci.com is sacred psyd of the warriors of peace, chief sitting bull's most tightly held possession as dr. tic so eloquently speaks out in his book, war and the soul. so in closing, we in fact do have the model available. why are we using that? mag which, make which, make which and semper fi. thank you. >> anyone like to try this?

>> see, as you're mulling over that, i think the question that has started to build a someone who is a listener. i'm not an expert on this at all. i'm hearing really clear patterns, right? and we're going to get pretty soon to shelley who will try to talk about her concerns about over politicizing or miss politicizing things. but what i hear is there is a real problem created by, i think, people are talking about the bureaucratic patient is war. but the way -- what i'm hearing it's real problems created by the impersonal or depersonalization of the work process and the way that it's retrieved on the other end. and i could go into this, but it's not my panel. there is something pretty, to my mind, pretty profound here, very hard because you're talking about the entire structure of how people think of work and what it is to work with people when people are in situations

that are flesh and blood in sentiment and heart. i don't know if you folks want to reply to the comment at all. >> it's a tough one. okay, thank you for your comments. i think it's point taken. >> just commissary. [inaudible] >> -- we are not in conventional conventional -- [inaudible] >> this is a really -- this is the point -- [inaudible]

>> yet, this is a hard comment. it cuts into academia, too. it cuts into what -- [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] >> thank you, sir. shelley, you are up.

>> mina micheli corder ville. i'm a u.s. army veteran. i'm a female. that's the first thing it what you people to notice. please stand up. to female veterans and i say that because i hear he, him. there are women as well. you people are supposed to be professionals. don't leave us out. that's my first complaint. i have to say i'm really upset. i came to this conference. i was really excited. i came up away from oregon. i was so excited about this conference. i thought i was going to learn some really great stuff from you professionals, from the experts. i was totally unimpressed this morning. sounded like all you people are more for war than peace. i thought i was going to learn something about strategies to treat ptsd. i deal with veterans all the

time back home. people committing suicide, people threatening to commit suicide. many of us veterans have been the classes to try and help our fellow veterans. we know how to heal. maybe all you academics need to take a clue from all of us regular people. and i'm sorry. i don't mean to be disrespectful, but i've kind of had it up to here. i spent a lot of money, saved a lot of money to gain your to try to gain some sort of intelligence from you people to take back. so far all i've gotten is total frustration. when you are asked, what is healing? you people don't even know. you don't have a clue. i've watched all of you. all of your faces when you're asked that. and i thought to myself, why in the world are any of you out there. you needed to have up there was

ed tech and maybe some of us veterans who have been working damned hard to heal and to help our fellow veterans and to help our communities and our families. i am just totally blown away. and i'm sorry. i know i'm being very disrespectful, but i also know a lot of my fellow veterans are very upset right now, hugely disappointed. and i think we have a right to say we're disappointed. a lot of us paid a lot of money to come here. >> shelley, i think it's a great question. i'll be the first person to say academia is not in for free speech and you're speaking from your heart. so you don't have to feel bad about that. it's a tough question. why not. it's a tough topic. so i mean, i'll take some responsibility. let me ask a question that will turn it around because i was thinking maybe i should've gotten to this question right

away. these people do have some real expertise. so, what is the golden nugget from where you folks are? this is what i was trying to get at. i'll take responsibility. i didn't do it in a direct enough way. what is the golden nugget that you folks have been finding your part does? something that you think, you know, you walk around and they don't know this. they don't get it or the people that you're working with themselves are struggling for and they don't get? but you've been doing it for 10, 20 years and you're starting to see it. give us a golden nugget if you can. it might take a couple minutes for you to observe again, but maybe that should be which are closing comments are. is that all right? i'm going to let people respond. ..

from 17 to 50 is a pretty long time. some of the things i do with my fellow veterans back home, men and women veterans, we don't have any official therapy session because most people can't get in. to be very truthful. people can afford to pay for therapy. and we do have a lot of practitioners that are operating an hour of their time and week for a veteran. that is absolutely wonderful. we really appreciate it. we have people that are doing

pro bono work with families, but we still have to have people out there helping. we do--. >> in the public community? >> yeah, ex-community deals. >> like going out to reach out to the community on a volunteer basis? >> sure, reach out into the community. you can't just feel the veteran. you have to heal the family. you have to heal the whole community. [applause] it doesn't just stay within the veteran. we go out and take a veteran out for coffee. just to feel connected. that is part of the problem. we come back and we don't feel connected. why would we? >> i think if i could just add, maybe we are way to bar in the stratosphere but that is why people, one of the reasons why people are going to politics. that is my read on it. people are saying the talk about healing it. it is media that you said the whole community and so what was happening on this panel, this is

something i'm learning from the panel, is that veterans are agents of the society. you cannot disassociate the healing from the healing of the society. [applause] that is why we went so quickly to politics. but that is not getting into the heart of what are your concerns but you are concerned earlier about you know why are we going into politics and i think in some kind of foggy way that is why, because people sense that you want to heal for more. you want veterans to you for more. you've got to also have a society heel with a. >> that that is neatly-- mean we need to bring in politics when we are trying to discuss healing. >> i understand. >> we have thrown that out the door quite frankly. we are really pretty good at being able to separate policy from truth. troops. military members. >> right, right.

>> thank you. thank you. >> i will let ryan-- and then there is dana after we are done. >> i'm not here to-- norm i hear necessarily to attack individual workers, but one of the things i think we need to keep these messages coming out because there are people who are entrenched within the structures that in fact do have difficulty understanding. when we can find a military psychiatrist in the u.k. writing paper saying, going to war doesn't have to hurt, okay? now, that is a military psychiatrist. he is currently working in london. when we find that people in the va in australia have given an

address on vietnam veterans day. recall that-- day. i tried to address 10 agents about vietnam veterans. they are walking time bombs. we don't have to worry about them. they would have been like like that anyway. these are the kinds of things that i hear in the corridors of veterans affairs in australia and i'm sure it is the same right across other developed countries. so, i am not hear necessarily to defend the clinicians. we are in some ways ignorant about the best way to proceed. we are also fighting at battle in a different front in that front is the understanding and acceptance of individuals in power positions to create circumstances that allow this to happen. a simple problem, when i was on the nac, there was a group of people in tasmania who had-- one

of the veterans was an expert carpenter and he had a woodworking group. the government was out, would you supply of wood for the woodworking group? and this is more than just a group of men getting together smoking cigarettes and drinking coffee and turning would. there were more things going on there than what was visible on the surface. and yet after 12 months, the government wants to cut the funding. we can't say that this is in any way therapeutic. at which point, you know i take my hand from the throat of the man making a decision and say well, you are wrong. you are just wrong. i do appreciate your feelings, and i share them. i can only report what i hear

from veterans and what i hear from veterans are the same kinds of things you are saying too. we have problems than we do not know how to ameliorate completely the problems that arise when you are confronted with the horrors of war. we don't know how to do that in society. and mental health survey in australia recently has found that eight to 12% of all women randomly selected have a post-traumatic stress disorder. it is not fixed within our society. we are battling against attitudes in government and in the administration. you are not alone here. there is no quick fix. we just have to keep chipping away. that is all they can do. >> thank you. >> dana, you are the last one up.

>> continuing on what shelley said, i would-- i was wondering how much the society understands to my knowledge all of the work was outside of the country, and the society has a misunderstanding on how could it help the process that is here. i think the society invest in the state in the state should somehow-- it should be the result of this choice. thank you. >> yes, so when your you are worth, how important is the absence-- exempting combat veterans and their families and

friends? how important is the relative absence of any experience or sense of what war is in american society. i will focus on that and you can focus on australia if you want. how much of our world is that absence of experience at the societal level of play in the ability of combat veterans to heal or to reintegrate? in other words is the fact that your average american does not really have any clue about what war is about, does that really-- how much effect does that have on war healing? i think that is the question? yeah. [inaudible]

[inaudible] >> i can't answer your full question. i again come again, as much from usa due from anything else. i know the boundaries that i face, the things they can't move. i can only do what i can do. how does a society learn to welcome anybody? i think one thing simply is, what did you learn about compassion? it was only by suffering. how does anyone learn about compassion? they learn about it by suffering which is a developmental issue and an issue of lock. so if you had good luck and you have been lucky in life, and you have been lucky, i don't know how much compassion that you are going to get and feel.

we are all busy. we are centered in our own lives. much of what we do-- we are so busy leading our own lives that we don't reach out with ourselves, and that is a societal issue. what do you do about that? i really don't have an answer, so you are causing me to think about something, okay? and that is always good. it is always good to have what you believe turned upside down, because that is what i live for every day. i live to learn something. that is why it is worth giving getting up the next day. i will have to think about that. i am going to guess, like that movie, it starts one person at a time, one step at a time, one day at a time that you have to wake up and smell the coffee, and maybe you veterans can help do that.

whacking somebody over the side of the head probably won't do it something else will probably have to be done. i will think about it if you will think about it. >> the other thing i might add is that we might also thinking about it at the wrong level so you know we are talking about how society treats veterans and this goes back to one of the gentlemen's earlier comments. you know, we don't need to look at it at the society level. i have veterans in my neighborhood, so it is how do we treat, you know the veterans in our community. i mean it is an individual question as much as it is a question of. >> in other words, if those of us who are not veterans or not directly related to veterans took the time to stop and listee thought that we have to be responsible for what our fellow citizens-- we have asked her if

fellow citizens to do, then we would learn that experience. we learned it for what i believe is called deep listening earlier. because of a society or parts of a society can decide not to be responsible for their decisions and can decide to turn away and deny what they have asked other people to do, then you have, you you have an inability to learn vicariously through the experiences of people who have actually dealt with war. there are been one gentleman who has really been trying to speak. >> i am really trying not to speak. you asked the question about healing. we have got a healing circle this afternoon that shows compassion, that shows love, that shows healing and action and shows people actually showing their feelings and talking about past history and

other people in that room are listening. how many people care enough to be there? >> i could not be there. i have responsibilities. >> i know, i know and i had to walk the dog too. but i'm just saying you have an excuse for everything. there are no excuses. there is a reason but whatever. you have to be proactive. >> sir, no offense. okay, i understand that people do it in different ways. some of us walk around for an hour really trying to get in the mood for this, researching it and listening to people. i don't know, do you people want to address that? i think the content of the issue is that this panel is set up theoretically, not spirit chile. and you have had a very powerful spiritual experience and the point is that is immediately nursing. this is not practical in that sense, so i can understand why that would be frustrating. maam?

>> i would like to carry that further. [inaudible] i think, no i believe as an individual that i have the responsibility for my post-traumatic stress. a lot of that i'm not willing to talk about but i must feel that myself. when i go to family, they are like up. so i think it's individuals and as a community, we do need to bond as a community. we cannot ask the government to spend billions of dollars on something that is not going to-- [inaudible]

this is a community thing. that is my only comment. >> okay, thank you are going fortunately we have to close. we are 15 minutes over. i just got their marching orders on that. we had wanted to do round of comments but i hope it is okay. please continue the conversation. just this one thing, you feel bad as the moderator not digging out some of the nuggets that were there and i think you should trust that they are there and please, if you have questions, go directly to the people on this panel and really dig. you will find something. this is really hard to do in such a public forum. thank you for your patience and thank you for being here, all of you. [applause]

[inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] >> as the country marks veterans day learn more about the holiday and the men and women who served in the military with the c-span video library. oral histories, authors on the nation's wars, and veterans day commemorations through the years. all searchable, all free on your computer any time. >> in a few moments a forum on this year's races for governor. and about an hour, more about the elections from "washington post" political reporter and blogger, chrysalis of.

>> republicans had a net gain of five governorships in the elections and now hold the majority of the statehouses. next, form on the election with officials from the republican and democratic governors associations. lobbying and political strategy firm, deco worldwide, hosted this hour-long discussion. >> good morning everyone in thank you very very much for coming. really appreciate it, specially on veterans day. i guess let's all remember that it is veterans day.s fantastic this morning, but thanks very much all of you for coming. it is great to see you here. .ing obviously illustrative of what we are talking about, pretty fascinating election. i am craig pattee. i know some of you know some of .

i run the state and local part is, dutko worldwide and i'm particularly passionate. i don't know if that's the right word were talking about government and politics, the passionate about state and local work in a particular governors. i'm guessing you are too or you wouldn't be here right now unless somebody told you you had to be. but hopefully that's not the case. it's been so interesting the past six months has been the site of governors races i got started in 1993 when i got kicked out of the bush white house and feels very similar to the way it felt for the past six months. not necessarily a democratic or republican thing, but just a resurgence in the power of governors vis-à-vis you not only in the states, but also here in d.c. and again, if you're here,

chances are that your bread and butter. that's what you'll do. for all very interested in the role that governors play in the states play in terms of impacting federal policy and national policy and the implementation of the policy. and for me, what was really interesting in this election was you had some of the individual races which will talk about in a minute and yes, some of the broader political trends. what does this mean about obama's administration pluck, pluck, pluck. to me the most interesting thing is this resurgence in federalism. the past five to 10 years, governors have been playing third string, but they are definitely back. we have a really active crop of new governors that are going to be very good, both for the national governors association as well as the rga in the tga and on their own. and we have a whole slew of federal policy that are coming back up again, whether it be rother it be rasterization, no

child left behind for transportation funding. you know, exactly how health care reform. that all shakes down to the states now. so it's a very exciting time to see a large group of governors coming in. it will be interesting to see how the new speaker approaches and handles his relationship with governors. i think governors have felt way on the back bench, regardless of what you think about nancy pelosi. even for the next 10 years. what was so great about 1994 is not a speaker and a president and a senate majority leader at that time, bob dole, running for president, all paying attention to governors and that's what he saw such a great partnership. so i'm really excited about it. so the purpose of today is to talk to those governors races in sort of what happened and why. we've got sort of two

discussions. remaking the shorter the way down in the past because everybody has got worn out last year. the first panel for going to be talking about the races themselves. and we're very lucky to have the senior folks for the rga here to talk goes through. and i were going to do some q&a and, probably take a quick five minute i opaque and then chris cillizza will be here later this morning starting at 10:30 to look at some of the political and media aspects of the races. and will be done by 12:00, i promise. i had some other notes, but they're kind of moot now. there is the sole state and legislative aspect to it as well, which maybe we will talk about another day. there were 16 states that had control within the state legislators. i'm not a lot, especially going

into a redistricting year. but there's a whole another conversation to have about that. in any case, let me turn it over to the first panel and get it started. we really enjoyed doing this with the rga and vga. most of you are probably involved in the rga and you probably know that they are two of the most effective organizations in the country and certainly in washington d.c. both in terms of providing opportunities to interact with governors and staff, but providing real funny to those governors and staff as well, going well beyond the dollars they raise for the races. the reason that certain nations are so effective is because they very well run. make eric and nathan daschle run for organizations and they would love to get together. nick had to hop on a plane to go out and get ready for the upcoming rga conference, which i'm sure we'll see many of you. phil cox, political director with the rga, who is here to talk about the races.

horse nathan daschle from the democratic governors association. and we've asked josh kraushaar to come and moderate the panel. josh is a former reporter for politico and now a columnist with national journal.com called against the grain and executive editor of the hot lane. i'd like to turn it over to these folks and the format really is up to the three of you. josh, i guess it's mostly up to you, but you can let it be organic and you know, let's have a half-hour 40 minute discussion and then i would love it if you could help stimulate some q&a from folks, sort of see where it goes. thanks. >> thank you, craig for the introduction and i'm very excited to be here talking about the governors races in the statewide landscape, especially now that it's a week out of the holidaycome about from time to to digest the results and get

some sleep and the partisan bickering and look towards the governing aspect. and to do that i'm really pleased to be joined by two of the sharpest operatives in washington who i've known for quite a while. [inaudible] [laughter] >> nathan daschle, chairman of the democratic governors association -- [inaudible] and republican governors association political dirt, phil who has been here. they've been as many of you know as they connect to director that manages all the dga policy, finance, political efforts, you name it and under name his leadership at dga has played a pivotal role in helping the democratic gubernatorial candidates across the country and the dga really has become a

force in national democratic politics especially over these last few years. so, before joining the rga service as a campaign richard burr current virginia governor donald andy engineered one of the gubernatorial victories of the election cycle. and he's been the campaign manager and consultant to over all the way down to the state legislator and also served as mcdonnell transition direct care. one of the reasons i'm very excited about moderating this panel is nathan and fell for together aggressively on the political battlefield, but this is true for the rga and dga as far as all the political committees that get along with each other outside the office. i've been a part of many panels and it's not always the case.

sometimes you have to really play moderator and kind of separate two sides. a very partisan operation at times. i'm impressed with both the work of nathan and nick they can play aggressively in the political battlefield and get together for drinks and work together and there's not a lot of acrimony, so that's a real testimony to the work these guys do. you know, there's a couple big teams but the governors get lost at times but the senate race of the national attention, but the governors races are among the most important and consequential concepts that we saw this november. and i think will have the most lasting impact on the political scheme in the last few years. and the republicans picked up the key presidential backgrounds

with pennsylvania, ohio, florida, you know, vis-à-vis the races where the presidential race in 2012 and then i'll have an interesting impact on how these play out over the next few years. president obama is preparing for his fall election. there's a lot of very, very top democrat and they're going to have to figure out how to move forward in this day. so i went to kind of delve into how the governors races, how they are affected and affect the presidential races in two years. another big theme that came out of the governors races redistricting. try not, is not necessarily the most thing when it comes to politics, but when you look at the house race map and the state legislative races for years and years to come, these are one of the most consequential governors races because the governor can do the bold work. if you have a democratic

governor in a state with republican legislature, they can make it much for a bipartisan effort and vice versa. a lot of these big states, a lot of states where we seem governors and parties which is, they are going to be a lot of lasting impact and i want to go into that as well. there's also a lot of a lot of proven others, fresh faces, 24, 25, couple dozen. you've got folks that haven't been around before with familiar faces like california judge jerry brown and morgan john kitzhaber and a genuine tea party governor paulo page. you've got a guy who was around washington d.c. in congress they ran for president in 2005. there's a lot of colorful characters and i want to go into some of the more interesting storylines also from 2010. but first i want to take a really big picture look of the night on election night. and kind of close to similar

questions. governors gained five governorships you win some, like son. he said five saves will do better than a lot of the expectations for democrats heading into election. so i want to -- nathan, are you satisfied and how do you think it does for the upcoming governor's races? >> well, thanks. first let me thank dutko for this. they also want to thank all of you for coming. as craig said, normally they give this world races and i used to seem some people interested in governors races. when i want and i assumed i was in the wrong room and almost turned around while checkout. it's great to see so many people here because it's just sad, the governors races that have already taken place are going to be the most significant in our political landscape for the next decades comes to talking about

what they mean is very important and very useful. and also, i want to say to josh's point, to committees have a long history of mutual respect and sincere. and i do respect a great deal of work the rga did over the past cycle. at a phenomenal cycle and you saw the statistics come the money they raised. fill himself ran probably the best campaign of the two years. so really it is an honor to have both of them. they'll talk about the question at hand. the question just asked as i was satisfied with that gain on the republican side of five governorships. the answer to that is yes. we've spent much of this year bracing for much greater republican views. opponents predicted we were going to get annihilated. people were saying that his eight, nine, 10. there was one statistic that within my head every single night went to sleep, which was that according to the university

of minnesota, smart politics bob almond democrats were poised than at any point in 90 years. site by then i had at that, going to spend this? [laughter] maybe i can tell people we had a record-breaking year at dga. fortunately -- [laughter] fortunately, we did not have that outcome. i think phil will admit this point, has said publicly they were expecting it to be in the 30's when all was said and done. we kept them 25. the reason that's a victory for us is we enter the worst political environment since 1994. we were up to spend, outmanned, outgunned by the two to five -- 2.5 to one ratio by the rj -- rga. historical average was 5.5 governorships. the fact this environment we

were so that we could keep them to honor historic average, i think is a victory for us. and so, we ended up feeling very good about the fact that we're still in the 20th. but in the twenties i mean 20. [laughter] it sounds better if you say in twenties. and you know, we were able to flip side states from republican leadership to democratic leadership. the reason i think that is significant is the only place in the country were democrats made significant inroads in changing seas from republican to democrat on the state level and will probably get into whether that's true. but being able to flip side states the republican leadership to democratic leadership in this climate not only as a victory in itself, that says something that i think is still a lecture at worth it to democratic electorate. it is looking for commonsense leadership and still wants change and right now when i said the last election as things in a

different government. before the election you talked about the big four states, california, new york, texas. all four of them. how disappointed, excited? >> everyone knows that as vermont and hawaii go -- [inaudible] [laughter] no, we clearly wanted to win florida. we've spent $6 million in florida. does a very, very important race to us. we came within 50,000 votes. think we did everything we could peer the climate and environment just wasn't right then. that one was less of a surprise because ted stroup had been chilling in the polls for the entire year. he did come up strong at the end, but wasn't enough to win. so obviously i'm disappointed in both of those, but those losses would've made it a whole lot worse had we not then better in

new england states are not putting out one important states like minnesota and oregon and of course california as well. thought to ask another corollary to that question. look in all the exit polls, all the surveys before the election. i mean, this is looking like a republican white house. he got every key demographic, republicans for the first time, women in the exit polls, white voters like 20, 25 points. this is one of the most lopsided elections in quite some time. the fact that you didn't quite win some of the big states, california, the 30 seats -- haley barbour set 30 seats. was that disappointing or we are expecting some of the candidates not been strong and get that historic number? >> before i avoid answering your question, let me thank the folks at dutko. so many of you been so helpful

to us over many, many years, especially the western virginia and the cycle, so appreciate you having us. nathan, congratulations on completing your cycle as executive director. i can tell those of you to watch that stuff in d.c. beating the same committee is tremendously difficult challenging thing to do. it just doesn't happen these days and you conduct yourself if i had a great professionalism for actually five and a half years. we look forward to many good things to come. i couldn't be more excited with the results of the election. i mean, we set out at rga really to have an impact on the key presidential battleground states. going into the election, we held two of 10 key battleground

states, walking out was that nine of 10. we invested over $50 million in those races. we were able to raise over 100 million -- than of $100 million this year as nathan mentioned. so i think the story for us is really looking at those presidential battleground state, looking particularly at the midwest, you know, you look at wisconsin, michigan, ohio, pennsylvania. you know, these are states that world democratic-controlled states, democratic governors with key presidential battleground states in 2012. and you know, they'll now have republican governors since many good candidates. we talk about some of our governor? , folks like scott walker, rick snyder and tom corbett.

i think we've got some really exciting people, john k-6 who has got more energy than my 4-year-old niece. it's a lot of fun to watch, john, go to work. so look, i think getting the neck in a five, sometimes we'll give it a six because of florida, nathan. and 29 is great. and i think we need to take a step back. this was a truly historic election cycle. and even what degree i think that governors races really to drive a lot of what happens down ticket. and the fact we were able to deploy $100 million for students taking spend $14 million for example in new england i think helped her candidates throughout down ticket. and we picked up by the levites of 13 right now stands at 13 congressional seats in new england. we made gains on the congressional side and picked up almost 20 seats in the midwest.

so you know, we suffered rue himelfarb 610 to eight and i had to sit on the postelection and they work fine. you look at it and you know for a lot of times the national pundits are saying the republican parties is now a regional party. you know, the south and the midwest. well, i think democrats really have that problem now. but got some bastions of support on the coast and in new england, but they've got a real problem in the midwest and we made gains in places that i think that they just weren't expecting. craig had mentioned something that's critically important, which is state legislative races in the state houses. there were 19 state houses that slipped from democrat to republican. nineteen. talk about an impact on the districting. in 680 seats that went, state

legislative seats to at least a minimum of 680 that republicans gained across the country. i think that's going to have a lasting impact over the next decade. so you know, look, we're very pleased with where we are. i can remember growing up playing hockey new england that we were losing the other team scoreboard. and you know, that's 29 races is something that we're very pleased with and particularly where they are think is going to have a huge impact on redistricting and also 2012 in the presidential cycle. >> i want to talk about some of the names of some of the people that were elected governorships, that the concept that pass for the presidency, the current president excluded, but most of them come from governorships and we're already seeing it in new jersey chris christie being mentioned and touted as a possible 2012 competitor in

2016. but you're going to be seeing a lot of these first-time governors being mentioned as national contenders for the presidential in 2012 and beyond. i want to go to both nathan and phil. who are the rising stars in this freshman class of governors? >> the rising stars would have to be some fresh faces, jerry brown -- [laughter] neil abercrombie -- [laughter] i would say i think that john hickenlooper from colorado will be a star right off the bat. he is a really interesting person. he breaks the political mold. he's socially liberal, fiscally conservative for most of america is quite frankly. he want any part of the country that democrats have not traditionally done well in. in the last decade from really started to taper off.

and most importantly, he's an interesting and fun person to be around. he's real. like so many governors, he's a real person and it's got interesting ideas. what is funny about him is that he ran an ad that showed him on a horse. and it was kind of a parody ad saying if you run for governor of colorado, all your consultants tell you that you have to be right in a horse. and he's the mayor of denver. he's not a cowboy. funny thing about yet is the total six months ago, you know, i'm thinking about this at. and it's me in a horse. and you know, he basically drawn up the whole thing himself. but that's the kind of guy he is. he's very creative. [inaudible] >> that's a retake of the one he did in my own race. the shower ad is excellent for those of you who haven't seen it. but i would say -- [inaudible] >> that may have been one of the

most memorable ads, john hickenlooper, not exactly the most charismatic candidate, but these into that and he puts on his hidden jumps jumps in the shower. >> was at a pivotal point of getting his identity out there? >> yeah, it was. the key point is he was fully clothed. >> alice's first ad in this race. and you know, i think it was an important ad because it wasn't negative. it was funny i don't want to do a negative vibe vibe. i want a positive campaign. he identified himself as somewhat optimistic. i think about how bad voters still respond better to optimism. not the campaign tactic, negative works. but if you can find a way to have an optimistic message, voters will respond to a better and that's why i think hickenlooper was able to set

himself apart soberly on this race. i would say dan lloyd, connecticut will be a rising star. and of course andrew cuomo, everyone knows who he is. he's got a great resume. i can't speak to this, but doherty has been taken on some bigger roles. i agree with your premise but on both sides that will be about his leadership coming out of this. i want to quickly follow up on colorado because of such a key battleground state. immigration is a major issue that democrats were very successful in many cases i think. how do you look at that as kind of a bulwark for democrats starting in 2012. >> yeah, that's very, very competitive territory. no party has ownership of that part of the country. we've proven we can win there. we still have the governor in montana. we do have a governor of

colorado. we had a governor in new mexico and arizona in recent years. we can win in that part of the country. it obviously takes a certain brand of democratic leadership that i think still exists in person or party, but yeah, that's an important part of the country. i think president obama can win that in 2012. and i think having people like john hickenlooper, brian schweitzer will make that happen. >> great question and i could probably talk and answer the question. we have so many new governors first of all. governor donnell was talking this week. he said not one of the senior governors, which is kind of crazy to think about. this was really an historic election for the rga. when you look at the fact we elect the first woman hispanic governor of state and susanna

martinez, india american woman and mickey hayley, for women governors, hispanic and brains sandoval in a key state like nevada, really important election for us, for our party going forward well into the future. i think we're going to have a lot of emerging stars. i look at our current crop of folks that haven't been inaugurated yet and eight think obviously about governor barbour as someone who is a possible candidate for president in 2012. he's been not only an exceptional governor and the state of mississippi, but he's got a great strategic mind and i think you'd be obviously a powerful force in any republican nomination for president. you know, you got folks like governor general who has done an incredible job, especially in the wake of the cold spell, oil spill in the louisiana. he's got folks like chris christie and bob donnell who

have had just incredibly good first years, you know, balancing budgets by cutting spending, not raising taxes. chris christie has taken on the unions and is really turn this state around a new jersey. so i think we've got a lot of potential candidates. i think most of the candidates for 12 already out there. you got governor fulani, governor barbour wang, former governor romney running. but i think you're going to have a number of potential vice presidential that will be interesting on our side. you're going to look at a susanna martinez or a brains sandoval because they're both from swing states. they both have great stories to tell and i think the list is long. i mean, we could probably go on and on, but it's great. i think the other thing that's interesting is for rga at least,

this incoming group of governors is pretty tight knit. they talk to one another a lot. so you're going to see a high degree, i think, of policy cross-pollination. and i'll governors across the country are doing with the same set of issues right now, which is how do you balance budgets and a terrible economy? and you know, they're looking at folks like jindall and barbour and mcdonnell and fulani who have done these things over the years. and also i should mention rick perry who by the way we were doing the back of the envelope sort of assessment of governor perry. he said $285 million in negative advertising spent against him over the course of his career. 285 billion was in incredible amount. the state that dga thought they

had a shot at and invested some money in. >> had i known that 285 number, would probably would have not -- [laughter] >> you know, governor. it's been an incredible leader in taxes and somebody who's going to be very prominent i think on the national scene as well going forward. >> phil, i'm struck that you mentioned a lot of these up and comers in the gubernatorial class, but surely talking -- i remember governor's class where we were already about potential candidates on a presidential ticket. you really think after being in office for two, three years they could be seriously considered? >> you? >> you look at chris christie and what he's accomplished. look at his national profile. look at some of the things mcdonnell has been able to do. it's have to be in for a year, but i do think that our current crop of presidential candidates are probably -- i think they're all white males. correct me if i'm wrong. i think we're going to be

looking for some diversity on the ticket. and i think we've got that and our current crop of governor select. >> do you believe chris christie? >> yeah, i take governor christie's word that i don't think he's going to run. 2016 is another story. >> i was going to say, i think that it's very possible all the candidates he mentions will be possible 2012 candidates were maybe 2016, but sometime in the near future. and the reason i think it is something about makes a governor so compelling, but compelling in this environment. our trust -- are used to users of powerpoint and we talked about how bad the problems are right now and then how will public trust in government is. and that creates a real problem, particularly for folks in d.c. you have to think about washington d.c. because our problems are increasing, but her faith in government to fix them

is decreasing. but think what that is created as the faith in government is probably at an all-time low. that's why i think we're getting so many people identified independents, not democrats or republicans. democrats are slightly different breed in the sense they are closer to people, most importantly outside of washington d.c. they think for a lot of people, type of leadership we've seen is more like what you want to get the federal level to the leadership in congress. you know, while many times you think two years as a governor is not enough experience, i guess it doesn't surprise me so many names to be considered just a big governors to have so much more of what is compelling to people right now. >> i mean, you have a lot of governors coming in, a lot of the governors you mention. it's such a budgetary environment and it's not going to be you cannot benefit from spending a lot of money. a lot of cuts will have to be made. to think they can survive politically? ed rendell, one of the most

popular governors two years ago when he leaves office with approval ratings in the 30's, low 40's. do you think you can survive the subprime? >> absolutely. and i think they can thrive. and i point again to both make donnell, christie, jindall, barbour, governors would've done it to make deep cuts. you know, one of the things that was certainly the wind was at her back. you know, if you look at some of the issue matrix for the selection, two thirds of the likely voters going into election day, jobs and the economy as the number one issue and spending as the number two issue. and we have, you know, democrats in congress and the president to thank for that, but that was the same issue environment we face it in virginia last year in september and october. bumbling governor's race, but experience in virginia, with the most single out on education and the entire election cycle, which if you had told me that in the governors race i would've said you're drinking too much that

day. but you know, the issue was certainly in our favor and voters generically trust the republicans on the economy and on spending. if you look at those governors that have made hard decisions balance budgets by cutting spending, not raising taxes, even, you know, looking at education and health care in areas that traditionally, you know, voters don't like to see us cut, those governors have a lot of support. donald cut $4.2 billion in his first year. he is a $400 million surplus in virginia and he's got a 60% job approval rating. chris christie, same thing. and now, and even worse environment. so i hope and pray and encourage all of our candidates or governor select to really look at what some of these other governors have done and make those cuts, make them now and

hopefully the economy will come around in the next couple of years and mobile to reinvest some key priorities. >> i want to get to audience questions and a little bit, but first i want to do a lightning round of questioning. what were the biggest surprise is? every election you've got some shockers. i was certainly surprised by some of the governors race outcomes. nathan, what was the biggest surprise for you on election night? >> biggest surprise for me probably was illinois. >> you told me he thought it was almost over a few months before. >> yeah, that was between you and me. [laughter] he was trailing for most of the selection, you know. and you know several points behind grady. in fact, julius was out pulling him. and to close that cat back i was

just amazing and a real testament to him. we did have one person on our staff who insisted for months that he was going to go this race. he told me were by and large democrats who had made up their minds yet and they would eventually come home for pat quinn and he was right. and as just enough margin. >> is very larger lesson that phil brady ran back very outspoken conservative candidate in illinois in the key to winning a lot of elections is the suburbs. there are lots of these other states in the future and if their campaign strategy that quinn uses? >> well, yeah. i think with that ratio is that there still is when we have a greater tolerance for mainstream there still a breaking point, particularly in states that have been history of electing moderates. in illinois you have a history of electing moderates from the northern part of the state. phil brady is not one of those.

i think it shows even though it are greater tolerance for kansas we still have a breaking point. >> do you think illinois was an unpleasant surprise. i think i would agree with nathan that we thought we had a really good shot coming down the stretch the last couple of weeks they are. that's a state where the partnership you see in a lot of cases between the dga and the unions really pay off, whereas we literally had been some reports had 4000 paid workers on the ground in cook county leading up to election day. in cook county i think the turnout was higher in cook county over the senate race. and really i think at the end of the day, that was the story but there is a better turnout observation based on union support. i think the other surprise that was a pleasant prize for me personally was one of the states that i was dealing with everyday was florida. we came through just a bruising

nomination contest, where we had over $70 million spent, you know, 95% which is a negative advertisements. and you know, as our nominee, rick scott had a negative image going into the general election until late primary -- and you know, he was upside down. and you know, we sort of thought alex sink had the makings to be a good candidate. didn't turn out that way. i think the skype team ran one of the best campaigns i saw in the country and what is obviously a critically important state. the rga has spent over $98 billion in florida and i know dga was heavily involved. so 50,000 votes will take it. it was, you know, incredibly important to win florida. >> emerged in florida, rick scott tens of billions of dollars of his