aviv. i doubt very much if such a crowd would show up to listen to me. i want to thank the university and my publishing house for organizing this evening. it's really after a very concentrated week in canada which was very encouraging for me to see that wherever we fail in israel but we get is some kind of voice and some kind of echo abroad which is also important, and i'll get into it very soon. mahmoud told me a little bit about my record, but i would like to elaborate a little bit about it. he even mentioned the two dark sides in my career -- [laughter] both serving in the israeli army which is much worse than working in paris -- [laughter] but nobody's perfect. and this was many, many years ago. but what is important to our

discussion today is that i was really a typical product of the israeli education system, a typical product of the israeli media and a typical product of the israeli brainwashing system. for many, many years i was sure that we are always right, the arabs are always wrong, we are the victims, they want to destroy us and so forth and so forth. all those cliches that we were all brought up on. and it was only in the late '80s when i -- almost by accident -- started to travel to the occupied territories as a journalist. and it was only then when i realized after few months of almost random visits i realized that the biggest drama of israel is taking place in its dark backyard. there's almost no one to document it for the israelis, and there's almost no one who wants to know about what's going

on there. i always say that i fulfilled a wet dream of every journalist because my stories are always exclusive. [laughter] i wish they would be less exclusive, but they are usually exclusive. and then in the late '80s i realized that i would like to dedicate my professional career to document the occupation for the israeli leadership above all, to try to tell them what they don't want to know and to try to write for them what they don't want to read. and ever since then over 20 years i'm doing it, a very ungrateful job, many times i feel i'm writing for the archives which is also a job, but it's not exactly my ambition. and it took me so many years to understand, so many years later

how come that a society like the israeli society -- which is not combined only by monsters. some of you met israelis, they are not monsters. how come that such a society lives so much in peace with what's going on in its backyard? israeli society, many of them are really people with values. in any catastrophe or disaster in the world, israel is the first one to send rescue missions. most of the israeli young people would help a old lady to cross the road, many times even if she doesn't want to cross the road. [laughter] people with values. and it took me so many years to understand how, how can it be, because there were many, many longer occupations in history rather than the israeli one. there were even more brutal occupations in the history. but there was never, farce i can

recall -- as far as i can recall and mahmoud, you are from academia, maybe you'll correct me -- i don't remember one occupation in which the occupier felt so good about himself. and what is even more than this, there was never an occupation in which the occupier presented himself as a victim. this i can hardly recall any example. because the israelis, at least in the last ten years but ever since then, are so, feel so good about themselves. they're deeply convinced, and i'm serious about it, that the idf is the most moral army in the world. many times i tried to tell them, let's be a little modest, let's say the second moral army in the world. [laughter] maybe the army of luxembourg is more moral, and we are the second. they will be deeply offended, and i'm serious. and they'll call you traitor for

thinking that the israeli army is the second moral army in the world. they're deeply convinced that we are right, that six billion people in the world are wrong and five million jews in israel are right. and there is a whole machinery, and i won't talk about this, the whole machinery which enables the israelis to feel so good about themselves and can to be responsible for so many atrocities, crimes and violation of the international law. it was back in the early '90s when i was once standing in the columbia checkpoint which looked then totally different. and i was looking at the environment. not at the people for a moment. and the environment was really depressing. garbage, hundreds and thousands of people waiting under the sun or under the rain without any protection. no toilets, no water.

and i asked myself, why is it? because it's not a question of budget. and then i realized it's about the soldiers, not about the palestinians who are waiting. it's about preventing the soldiers to get any kind of thinking or sense that they are confronting human beings. because then question might be raised. but as long as they got this message that the crowd that is standing in front of them are not human being or at least not human being like them, they won't ask any questions. i wrote once that we treat palestinians like animals, and enthink got -- and then i got so many protest letters from animals rights organizations speaking about animals. there were two dogs killed in an operation. in this operation that i refused to call it a war because it was

not a war. i'll get to it later. two israeli dogs were killed. the operation attack on gaza. one dog was killed in a villa. the other dog was killed with the troops inside gaza. both dogs, and i know you might not believe me, but it's pure fact. both dogs which were killed in two different days got front page coverage in the israeli media. their pictures, their funerals, their owners being quoted how clever and intelligent they were and faithful. names, obviously. front page. in the very same day that those two dogs were killed were, obviously, ten and tens of of palestinian killed. their story appeared in page 16, in page 17. by the end of another story without the headline, without images, without names,

obviously. and the message to the reader is a very simple one. the reader knows that the important stories appear on front page, and the less important stories appear later on. so the message was very, very clear, and it's not an incident, you know, that happened only once. this is systematically throughout decades. that the life of two israeli dogs are much worse than the life of tens of palestinians. this is being projected, being transmitted to the israeli society systematically day after day for years. when you feel that they are not human beings, you can maintain such an occupation almost forever. no doubts, no question marks. and feel so good about yourself and feel so proud about yourself.

but this is not enough for the israeli society because it has to protect itself from a new thing. after the operation i see it as a turning point at least in public opinions, at least in europe. not yet with governments, but with public opinions for sure in europe and maybe also in this country. the world became less foreign to israeli aggression, less foreign to israeli violence, and critics started to be heard really everywhere. and israel became really a condemned place. more than ever. would you think that this will change any perception in israel society? not at all. because we have an answer for everything. the world is anti-semitic. and if world is anti-semitic, it's the world's fault, not ours. and system maasicly --

systematically any criticism on israel is immediately labeled as anti-semitism, and we feel so good, and they must be condemned, those who raise, who dare to raise their voice against anything which is connected to israel. maybe the best example was the attitude at cold stone -- [inaudible] whose daughter spent 12 years in israel out of conviction, who is a world famous and appreciated expert for international law and judge in the special court for the balkans and for rwanda. and he was perceived in israel and presented in israel as an anti-semitic because he dared to criticize, he dared to put the mirror. and if i thought that the operation was all the criticism

throughout israel will change something, came to flotilla and showed that nothing is new and nothing changed. because israel treated the flotilla exactly like that. it's again using force as the first option. it's again this conviction that we have the right to do whatever we want wherever we want. and it's, again, the victimization. because ask any israeli, he will tell you those boats were on the way to israel to destroy israel. that's the way it had been perceived in all the israeli media. those activities were called terrorists. i asked in one of the discussions in the israeli tv, let's be professional. my colleagues, journalists, let's be professional. leave aside ideology. how can you call them terrorists? this i mean, there are very clear definitions for terrorists. why were those people terrorists? the did they attack civilians? were they armed? no, but they are terrorists in

the israeli perception. so add to this fact ha in the last -- that in the last ten years, ever since the year 2000, the israeli society went totally to a condition that i would call coma. total apathy, total indifference. some of you might remember '82, the massacre noting not being cd directly by israelis and 400,000 israelis in the streets protesting. today this would have happened, not 400 people would show up. this indifference some of you might know that when a baby cries, usually there's no reason to be worried. but if a baby starts to stare with apathy, usually it's a sign for something serious. and the israel society is exactly in this condition. total coma, no protests, to

questions. no questions. and maybe one of the most horrifying things that i have seen was in the middle of the operation. as part of you might know, israeli journalists are not allowed into gaza ever since november, 2006. this was my last visit to gaza which for me, personally, this is my punishment because it was so hard for me motionally and professionally. not to be there in the war or what is called the war. so i went to the hills surrounding gaza one saturday, and then i saw one of the most horrifying scenes that, for me, had symbolized, had demonstrated the real situation of the israeli society. hundreds of israelis coming with their jeeps and children to the hills surrounding gaza to show their children how the bombs are falling on gaza, to show them how the smoke comes up and even to applaud after each bomb.

this scene which took place more than one day -- i was there only one day -- had demonstrated the real situation of the israeli society. and this all leads me to the conclusion that anyone who expects change from within the israeli society might wait long time. i don't see it happening shortly except if some very devoted, very courageous groups which are very active and no one should forget them like breaking the silence and anarchists against the war and physicians for human rights and the league against demolishing houses and the committee against torture and some other groups. but they are being marginalized, and they are marginal, and they have hardly any influence over

israeli public opinion. i remember still the days when the joke was, mahmoud, maybe you remember those days when the joke was that two israelis share three views. today three israelis hardly share one view. and if they share any view, it is a very nationalistic one, a very chauvinistic one. try to scratch the skin of any israeli. will he will, will he consider himself left or right or center? you'll always get to the same. the humanization of the palestinians, the deep conviction which is almost among any one of us that we are the chosen people, that we are the best and above all that we are the victims. as the late unforgettable my year, the prime minister of israel in the late '60s and

early '70s who was called the only man in her cabinet said it once, we will never forgive the arabs for forcing us to kill their children. that the's the way of -- that's the way of thinking. add to this another expression from the same unforgettable lady saying that after the holocaust the jews have the right to do whatever they want, and you get the core of the israeli society. now, if there is no hope from inside, the world in this part of the world, the middle east, the world means the united states. i must admit here that i had tears in my eyes when barack obama was elected, when he gave the speech in chicago at this night, and i really thought the change is about to come also to our part of the world. and here we stand two years

later, two wasted years, and we realize that there is nothing new under the sun. no difference between obama and any other american president. fall into any trap that israel's putting, wasting time. many times when you see the relationship between israel and the united states, you keep asking yourself who is the super power between the two? the not very clear. because i truly believe that any american president who would be really devoted to put an end to this dispute and to put an end to the israeli occupation could have done it. israel is today depending on the united states like never before. israel is isolated like never before. this could have been used as a tool to put pressure, at least to put an end to the occupation. instead of this we are facing,

now, this endless fast which is called the peace process. the longest peace process in history which never led and will, i'm afraid, never lead to anywhere. with the present scene of israel not agreeing to freeze the settlement. if you need any kind of indication to the real intentions of israel or of prime minister benjamin netanyahu, is there a better indication than this? someone who speaks about the two-state solution and is not even ready to do the most minimal, minimal, minimal step of freezing the settlements? not evacuating, freezing even this not. so anyone can take this seriously or believe that this can lead to anywhere in the

american administration quite passive. vis-a-vis this. and israel feels, again and again, that it can do whatever it wants. israel will not pay much. and i must tell you very frankly, i guess that even in this hole, like in any other places, there are people who deeply care about the future of israel. like me, for sure. and we israelis, we don't need blind, automatic friends. none of us in our personal relations don't appreciate friends who support us with whatever we do and never tell us what we're wrong. take a drug addict. you can be a friend of his or relative and supply him with more money to buy more drugs. he will be very grateful, but you can also send him to

rehabilitation center, and then he will be very furious at you. but isn't this real friendship? and israel's occupation addicted, this goes without saying after 42 years of occupation let's remember that israel existed without occupation only 19 years, so nobody can claim occupation is about to end and it's temporary. it's part and parcel of the state of israel. and even when we'll get to it maybe later in the q&a, even talking about the one-state solution, there is already one state. it is one state. with three different communities. at least. one are the israeli jews who gained full democracy. liberal, real democracy which is very fragile by itself. and there are many tricks in the last two years in the democracy for the jewish citizens.

but still it is, and i'm the best proof of it. the second community is what we call israeli-arabs, not to mention that there are palestinians, god forbid. they are full citizens of the state of israel and suffer from very, very deep discrimination. this can be shown, if i'll be asked, i'll give examples, but they are deeply discriminated by the government, by the society. it's very deep-rooted in anything that they do. they will always suffer from deep discrimination, and there's a third community, obviously, the palestinians, who live under the israeli occupation who have no civil rights whatsoever. who have no basic freedoms whatsoever. to call this a democracy is

really problematic, to say the least. can you judge a state only according to the facade? this yes, the facade is democrat, but all this is happening, also, in israel. can you be half democratic? many of us dreamt that maybe it's possible to be half pregnant. [laughter] but we know by now it's not possible. either you are or you are not. same for democracy. can you be a democracy only for one community? this can you still be called like we are called in this country again and again the only democracy in the middle east? what about the backyard? isn't it part of israel? and those questions are not being raised in israel at all. i still remember one of my first stories x this will give you an -- and this will give you an indication to the wrong way israel society went.

one of my first stories in the occupied territories back in the '80s was about this bed win woman who was about to give birth. in the middle of the night, a cold night in january, her husband and brother-in-law, they took her with the car, and they had to get to a hospital in jerusalem. they had to cross a checkpoint. in the first checkpoint the soldiers wouldn't let them passment they try -- pass. they tried an alternative way. in the second checkpoint, again, same reaction, they wouldn't let her pass. in the third checkpoint, she gave birth in the car. then they were begging the soldiers, please, take the mother with your own car, take the baby at least to a hospital, and they refused. so she told me. and then she was walking in a very cold night alone with her baby 2.5 kilometers, like 1.5

miles on her way to victoria which is a hospital in east jerusalem, and by the time she came, she arrived to the hospital, the baby was already dead. when i published it then, first of all, i didn't believe it because i was still stupid, naive, brainwashed. i was sure this was what we liked to call the arab imagination and so forth, arab propaganda. until it was found true like, unfortunately, all the stories, the hundreds of stories that i published throughout the years. but something was happening after i published this story. it was discussed in the israeli cabinet. two or three soldiers were punished. there was people talked about it a little, at least part of the society was shocked. ever since then i published at least another 12 or 15 stories about mothers who lost their

babies in the checkpoints and never again was it any reaction. nothing. i can publish this kind of stories now, and i do it on a weekly basis. no reaction. and you know what would be the automatic, spontaneous reaction of most of the israelis i know? they would say immediately, and what would have happened if she would have had a bomb in her belly or in her stomach or under her dress? and what would have happened if she would have committed suicide and killed the soldiers? this that's the way of thinking. speaking about checkpoints, one of unsuccessful jobs that i'm trying to fulfill -- maybe the most modest one and even this i didn't achieve -- was throughout the years to try to make the israelis think for a moment what would have happened if they

would have been in the palestinians place. try for a moment. so i did it once with the former israeli prime minister before he was prime minister. i asked him in a tv interview what would have happened if you would have been born palestinians, and he was frank enough and sincere enough to say i would have joined a terror organization which i highly appreciated, and then he was attacked and they used it against him in the campaign. but i'm trying to do it also in other cases like in this case in geneva which is in the north of the west bank. when i arrive to a checkpoint and i see a palestinian ambulance waiting and the soldiers are in their tents playing back backgammon, i wait5 minutes, 20 minutes, nothing. they tonighted to play. after half an hour, i went out of my car. i try always to really keep my

emotions because i know this can end very badly, but i couldn't. so i went out and first went to the driver of the ambulance, asked him what's going on. he say, it's routine. whenever i come here, they let me wait one hour until they get to me. and here this i couldn't bear anymore, so i went to the soldiers. and you know what freaked them out above all? i asked them what would have happened if your mother would have been in this ambulance? this freaked them out. they directed their weapons gwen me. they were -- against me. they were really about to shoot me because i dared to ask this question which immediately imbalanced them, immediately disturbed them because that's not the way of thinking that they are trained. how can you dare? they claimed later there was an investigation because they directed their weapons at me, they claimed that i called them nazis which i never did, but i

saw how this freaked them out, only this question. what would have happened? what would you have done if your mother would have been dying in this ambulance and some other soldiers were playing backgammon and not even bother to check who's in the ambulance. but this is out of israeli box, to try to perceive the other, the palestinian as someone like us. it was so wonderfully presented in one of the programs in the israeli tv, they interviewed member of parliament who is an israeli-arab member of parliament, and the interview asked him, doctor, what are you? are you a doctor or are you a palestinian? [laughter] decide. and it is a joke, and i can tell you that for many israelis the thought that a palestinian can be a doctor very suspectful.

very. and i'm not speaking now about the margins. i'm not speaking about the hard liners, the right wingers. i'm speaking about the mainstreamaj of israel.az which changed a lot throughout@s the years.aú my problems is not with the hard wingers and the hard liners. i'd rather have the foreign minister of israel who is a declared racist, nationalist, chauvinist rather than the beautiful face of israel like perez and even netanyahu in a way who leads the world for so many years, who presents -- you know, israel is the only place in the world with three nobel peace prize winners. i don't know how many other countries gave three nobel peace prizes. a real peace-searching country. i remember how when we were

children we were always so proud, so we were told, that we say shalom. we say, peace, as a greeting. isn't this a sign for how peace-loving we are? nobody told us, by the way, that the arabs are saying, also, shalom. this was hidden from us, yeah? we were only told that besay shalom. we say shalom. is there a better proof? i remember meeting a young boy of 16 first in this country with some of the organizations telling to americans so proudly, we say shalom. so when there is so little hope from the inside and the united states is also not very promising at least not at this stage, on the other hand, all my hosts everywhere always beg me, please, give some hope. say something at least when you

get to the end of your address. [laughter] you know, here it was for free in canada they paid $15. people paid $15. don't send them depressed home. [laughter] they will never come back. so for there $15 i'm ready to do anything. [laughter] so first of all, i must say -- and i do my best to find some hope, but there is some. first of all, one should realize that in the middle east one should be realistic enough to believe in miracles. [laughter] having said this, i must say, also, that would we have met in the late '80s and i would have told you that very soon soviet russia is going to fall, the berlin wall is going to fall and the apartheid regime in south africa is going to fall, you would have laughed at me. you would have said, you are out

of your mind. this will not happen. look how well established is soviet russia. look how strong is the south african regime. and look how the berlin wall separates germany as if there were already two peoples, two german peoples totally divided. and all this happened in a most unexpected way, without bloodshed, at least not in the last stage. so maybe it's also possible in the middle east. maybe the regimes which are really rotten -- and the israeli occupation is rotten really big time as we say in hebrew -- [laughter] maybe such things fall by themselves. the problem is that neither soviet russia nor around the berlin wall there were 500,000 settlers, and this makes it much, much more complicated. but to give you a scenario with seeing the light in front of us

which will not be the light of the trail which is coming in front of us is right now almost an impossible job. even the west which let's talk about europe a moment which is more progressive if i can say so, at least the public opinions. look what happens there. the governments are collaborating with the siege on the hamas, the governments are collaborating with the siege on gaza, the boycott on hamas. you know, the west wanted democracy in palestine. israel wanted democracy in palestine. they almost forced those elections on the palestinians. those stupid palestinians didn't understand that democracy means to vote for -- not for those that they want to vote for them, but to those that israel and the west want them to vote for. but it happened to be like it

happened to be in any other country that the palestinians country voted for the alternative, and the alternative was the hamas. which is not my cup of tea, but they are there, and they are totally excluded now in their peace process. and, you know, i keep on asking myself why is it legitimate to discuss with hamas for four years now over the site of one israeli kidnapped soldier, and it's not legitimate to try to discuss with them of the fate of two peoples? but the hamas is there which is a very good excuse for israel, again, to say no. israel is really very creative and imaginative one should admit. for years we say there is only one obstacle for peace in the middle east. the obstacle is christmas sir arafat. once we get rid of him, there will be peace. he's the obstacle. then we got rid of him one way or the other.

then came abbas. abbas was too weak. you don't expect us to make peace with such a weak leader. our fatwa's too strong, obviously, so we can't make with him peace. in between we say we will make peace with the palestinians only another small condition, change the palestinian amendments. okay. an american president by himself went to gaza to the palestinian council, and they changed the amendment. not good enough. then we say as long as there is terror, there will be no peace, but when the terror will be ended, there will be peace. now we are a few years now without terror, almost without terror and nothing. and the israeli imagination has now invented the last, really the last creation, recognize us as a jewish state. this is the next condition. imagine yourself, the united

states, asking the world to be recognized as an american state. or canada as a canadian state. but israel wants to be recognized as a jewish state, and this is the condition, and i can insure you that finally the palestinians will recognize israel as a jewish state, and israel will invent a new condition. but i want to get back for, to end my address with a story again from gaza which shows something, also, about the west. it was one of the most horrible stories that i've been covering, and the french tv crew accompanied me. they made a story about my work in the occupied territories, and we went to this house in rafa which i hardly can call a house. i say a lot of poverty, but this was maybe the poorest house i've seen there. and they were living there, this paralyzed mother with her only

daughter. two persons in a cave. and the night before we came there an israeli missile hit the house, and the daughter was killed in the arms of her mother, they were sleeping together in bed. we came there the next day, the mother was totally traumatized, i could hardly, i could hardly communicate with her. i collected all the testimonies i needed, and then we went out of the house. and the french journalist from the first channel which is a commercial channel, a free channel in france made with me a short interview. and then he asked me for my feelings. and then i told him what i feel so very often, unfortunately. i told him this is one of the days, one of the moments that i am deeply, deeply, deeply ashamed of being an israeli. because this missile was on my

behalf, i carry responsibility. it's the friends of my sons and the sons of my friends. who serve in the israeli army. it is this very society, the whole israeli society who participates in the occupation project. it's not only about the settlers or the army, we all collaborate with it, and journalists above all. the next morning the french journalist calls me up and tells me i'm very sorry, we will not be able to broadcast the interview with you. i asked him what happened, i thought maybe there is a technical problem, but i knew that the french journalist will never admit that there is technical problems in french equipment. [laughter] so he say, no, no, no problem. we have it. but my editors in paris told me that they think that the viewer will not tolerate this interview. which showed me, also, the long

way that we have to go in the west, europe, for sure in this country. and i can tell you from the depths of my heart i consider myself as an israeli patriot, a sentence which might sound in israel as totally lunatic, but i truly feel so. i am deeply, deeply ashamed of being an israeli, but i am an israeli, and i will stay an israeli. i carry very deep ill feelings ward the palestinian people, not only about '67, but also and above all about $48, and i -- '48, and i can say here just in a telegraphic way in '48, the ethnic cleansing of '48, if this would have been the end, i would

have said let's open a new page because atrocities happen in war, because, you know, each war is something very cruel. it happened, one should correct it, one should do something about it, but let's try to go on. the problem is that the ideology and the policy of '48 continued ever since then physical today. until today. it is the very same ideology, the very same policy. nothing changed, basically. many things change around, but basically, it's the same way of thinking. like in '48. so i'm really looking forward to feel somehow a little prouder and to find some ways to feel less guilty, but unfortunately,

this is not the case as i see it for the coming future neither from the domestic arena, nor from the international arena. but i can say one optimistic sentence for the end, all my predictions in the past were false. i was never good in predicting, so maybe i'm wrong again, and maybe by the time we'll go to our homes, peace will be in the middle east. thank you so much. [applause] >> questions. one, two, three. we'll do it one by one?

>> yeah, one by one. >> that's the best. yes. >> obama is willing, really willing after the november election to put pressure. do you think netanyahu can just stand up, or he'll try and play something where he might finally cave in? >> i don't think any israeli prime minister can say no to a devoted american president. israel is too much depending. i mean, it's -- the question is about the devotion of the american president, not about the freedom of the israeli prime minister. the problem is that until now we didn't face any real devotion. yes, please. >> first of all, thank you very much for an outstanding talk. >> thank you. >> listening to you, you're an israeli first and a jew second. it's overwhelmingly clear from the way that you sound. the people i meet in new york and elsewhere in the west are

jewish first and maybe israeli second. and to me israel can't possibly exist with or without u.s. help except that in contrast to the soviet union and south africa, there's this huge world -- for whatever reason, support. psychologically, monetarily, everything. and to me that is the way everything that the core of the evil, the source of the problem. how do you see that? of course; not all jews are terrible, but there is a significant, powerful element. how do you see that world in the future? >> yeah. here i would like to quote the adorable anna chum sky who said in this an interview in the israeli tv and for sure critical

about both i reel and the united states, don't put everything on the jewish lobby. i don't buy it. i mean, the jewish lobby is extremely powerful, extremely aggressive. many times i wish this lobby wouldn't exist. i don't think that this is genuine friendship to israel. i think, also, that one day it will all explode in our faces and in their faces. because it's too much. and one day -- and you see already changes, also, in the united states. very small one, very gradual one. an american general who speaks about the price that america is paying for israel. it seems that wouldn't happen few years ago. there is some change, there's also change in the jewish community here. but very gradual. but i i won't put everything on this. i can't believe, and you know better your society than i. i can't believe that it's all about the jewish lobby.

the jewish lobby is very powerful, but i think that there are many other interests and power groups in the society which shapes the policy of the united states in the middle east. it can't be only the jewish lobby, and can let's not put everything on them. you know, this terrible joke that the definition of anti-semitism, it is to hate the jews more than they deserve. [laughter] so let's not put more than the jewish lobby deserves. ..

>> first of all, there is an accusative effect to any action which is being taken. but we still have to remember that the israeli public opinion is getting it through the filters, they were trying to discredit. it about the turkish flotilla, few weeks after the flotilla, the siege on gaza. not dramatically. so israel can deny in till tomorrow, have an effect even on their official position. and here, want to say something broader, if you'll allow me, which again will sound very harsh. but i don't see that anyone will be able to deny it.

all the concessions that israel has ever done were always after bloodshed. never before. in the year of 71, israel was offered either interim agreement with egypt or full peace with egypt. israel again, golda meier, says a definite no. then came 73 war, 2006 israeli soldiers were killed, then it was time to make peace with egypt and return. for years, israel claimed will never seek. came the first intifada, and israel recognized the plo. israel would have never it i could the occupation of south lebanon if it knew all the soldiers that were killed there. this is a horrifying message. to say if you want us to move, kill us. but that's the message.

we always say, israel's army said about the arabs. they only understand the lay which forced to wear the first ones to understand only the leverage of force, and it's very, very depressing. i don't feel safe here with any kind of pride. but nobody can deny this. yes, please. [inaudible] >> make your pardon? you speak so quickly. as a nativeborn israeli, what is your view of jewish law? >> this is the result where, you know, when norman finkelstein came to israel and he was detained in the airport over a year ago, he could apply for israeli citizenship, and then they had to give it to him. they wouldn't let him in as a tourist. but would he apply, no, he had to get it because he was jewish.

i have no problem with the fact that israeli is open to any jew in the world to come and join it, us. i have a problem when it is only officials. israeli had absorbed in the last 10 years 1 million russians. half of them were not jewish. nobody claimed that this in dangers the jewish nature of the state of israel. when it comes to the right of the return of the palestinian, this is -- don't you dare even to mention it because this will destroy the state of israel. so i would have liked to have seen two, i don't think that all 59 palestinians will come back, would like to come back. it will be impossible by the way. i don't think this is the case.

but part of them, rather than half a million non-jewish russians, whatever, heard about israel before, why only because they are russians and they are palestinians. yes, please. >> hello. thank you for being here. do you have any comments, or if there is an ongoing debate in israeli society about what ahmadinejad has said? and specifically, any kind of force used on the iranians? because i just came from there, and there was a mature on the the iranian side of attacks for certain spirit let's exclude from the lexicon the word debate in israel. [laughter] >> there's no debate. there's no debate about that.

that's the truth. now, iran is presented obviously in israel like an enormous danger. and i won't underestimate the danger. there is danger. but again, what about rational policing? it would be much more rational, for example, if you want to weaken iran or weaken the influence of iran in the middle east. you disarm iran more than any other, but this obviously is not the direction israel is going. and i'm very, very concerned that israel might do something. i have no information, obviously. anyone who tells you he knows, doesn't tell the truth because nobody knows. really, no brain knows.

not enough, without united states it can't do that again it will depend a lot of the american administration if united states will be, will say very clear know, no is ready will dare to do. but if the americans will have message, then they might do a. i am very, very afraid, and it might happen, and people say now is the critical period of time, the coming after year. it's almost irreversible. but even about this, experts say even if they will bomb iran iran will be able to renew its capability in two to three years, so what is it about, and it can lead really to a terrible reduction. the problem is israeli has done it, and it was so successful, that these might come even

though, still that might push israel to lose again. i can just pray that doesn't happen, but i have no idea. yes, please. >> what about your job? okay. [laughter] >> first, i just want to thank you, and just to tell you that we reach our work. i mean, the archives, a lot palestinians. but for me as a palestinian, trying to always figure out where the friends are the potential friends inside of israel. it's always confusing to me to understand the thinking of, on the left, i don't know where you consider yourself. but i get confused when i hear you equally the right of return to the palestinians, for

refugees who are living in lebanon are all over, and a reality for the past 60 some years, with those of jews coming from whatever state. i think there's a huge difference. my family goes back at least 500 years living in jerusalem, and i have no rights to be there. so it's a big difference. and when you even say, equate the acknowledgment of jewish state, you equate that with acknowledgment of the american state. an american state is very different from a jewish state. you compare a jewish state to an islamic state to a christian state, which is based ultimately on atheism, on exclusion. were as american, i don't think it does. so i get confused with some of the messages that you give off. but i generally respect your

work. >> thank you very much. i get confused many times from a position because i'm trying to find my way. first of all, the jewish state, one has to admit that being jewish, jewish and this is not only a religion. we speak about the jewish people and you can be a secular jew. this must be recognize that we're talking here about something more. i don't is a nationality, but something more than just religion. so it's not -- jewish nation is something more than us. now, if we look for pure justice, i agree to everything you said. your them has much more right in palestine than my family. no doubt about this. but in a certain stage, justice must also be related and must

relate to things which are already done, and after the complete and irreversible. in one of my speeches, someone stood up and say, you have to, because i told him i live in a palestinian village. i swim every morning in a swimming pool which used to be the pool which was an old church. i know it. i think about it every day, so she stood up, this student in canada. she said you have to leave and go back to europe. you know, maybe this is just as, but this will never stop. and i think for many years when i was still in my first stay, now i understand that this cannot be because it is due here. we will never get to -- to talk

on who is right are bigger or stronger, or will establish, i can to you by no palestinians for generations have the right, the fulbright. i wish the two-state solution would have worked, and then they would be no problem. because then the palestinians could return to the palestinian state. but as we see, this is most probably not going to end up. and we have to find another way in which they would be relative justice. i know it's not the best but we can create justice, and at the same time create a new injustice. so we will go back to europe. this is again, creating new, it is in the. i think the jewish state of israel, is there. let's see how we go on from there to make it a just a state and to make it a state for its citizens. democracy. yes, please.

[inaudible] >> microphone, yeah. >> hi. i was just hoping you could tell us about the experience of being so isolated in your profession in israel, and that make you think about the journalists who walk around you with your ideas about objectivity. >> i do like to make a story of myself, and i for sure am not a victim. this is where i gained full freedom. no pressures on me. whatsoever. not military, not nothing. i was facing dangers oslo. i wish i was by the israeli army, but they didn't know i was in the car and he did know it was a bulletproof car, because otherwise i wouldn't be here now. but i can't complain about myself.

i get full support of manuscript, full freedom, total freedom. really total. there was another something i wanted to write. for sure not in the last years. and even support, i appear on the israeli tv. mike boyce is not totally -- my voice is not totally, i cannot complain, sure, it is not very pleasant to be alone. and i'm almost alone. someone say in one of the people in canada, you can count all the israeli journalist to share my views on one hand that i said yes, but the hand lost three fingers. [laughter] >> but for us, for me it is still both the freedom, not very pleasant to walk in the streets of tel aviv many times and all kinds of remarks, but you get also support here and there.

i really don't think that i am the case, so i don't sacrifice much. i really don't sacrifice much. >> back to the question of the jewish state. i followed you for many years, and more recent, more clearly your interview with jamie recently was very good at capturing exactly the history that you repeated today. i think that you are not doing justice to yourself in what you do said before about the jewish state, because you clearly believe in equal rights for palestinians and israel is living, living in israel. so it's not like you believe there should be special privilege for jews that does not extend to other people. may be can talk all the more because i think it is a very, very important subject. >> it's very clear. for me, jewish day, democratic

state are two contradictory concepts. and for me, it is very, very clear it is both a democratic state and jewish state. and for me, it is about having a quality between palestinians and jews, christians, muslims, whatever. a real democracy in which they may be a jewish majority, and then it will be the jews will be, their voices will be more heard. without discriminating anyone else. you know those questioned in the west are hardly asked. there is the problem with immigrants in the west, but that is not compared between the thousand in the end of this, because if there are immigrants in israel, we are the immigrants. and i think that it is about finding a real just place to live in. and all those talking by the

way, asking his way what does it mean a jewish state, he will not know. it's a very big concept. what is a jewish state? it means is a religious state, some will say yes. it is not a religious state, what does it mean being a jewish state, that we celebrate the holidays? i become i didn't understand until today what does it mean, a jewish state. and for me, it's something that i'm totally alienated. i'm trying my best. yes. [inaudible] >> i am a student, so my question is, how do you think about what should be shape with israel, is number one. and you told, for example, israel makes above conditions

like to end the terror, to do. but is finally getting what it wants. so i didn't understand, do you like it or you don't like it? >> no. when it was israel is putting conditions, and once they are fulfilled their putting new positions which shows that basically there is no one here, i'm totally convinced, israel has no real intention to put an end to this dispute, put an end to the occupation. no sincere intention. never had it, by the way, never had it, not before and not after. never had a. i think i say, everything is more simple than we presented. you know, one day when all this will be over, maybe it will, we'll all ask ourselves, what was it all about? about real estate. about some really stupid thing, because the solution is, the basis of the solution is much simpler than people want to

present it. an american president should call the israeli prime minister, do a very dramatic way, and would say within happier, or one year, israel is not the west bank and gaza is free. yes, yes. no, no. so the sanctions will be, i think, it's very easy because any step of the united states now in israel is really on its knees. the dependence is total, total, total. i mean, i don't see it happeni happening. by the way, that's an example of independence of the jews from the palestinians. because i lost my way and he met me in the streets. [laughter] >> you know, you mentioned that are no pressures, no restrictions on you, other than access to gaza.ñ but there were serious restrictions on other reporters

in your paper. there's a ongoing issue with the case. there are restrictions on civil societies increase, cracking down a civil society and human rights organizations, and all those others you can you say more about this, how it is affecting the little space of margin that survived in understanding all the difficulties? >> first of all, my freedom i don't take for granted. i know it can pass at any given moment. and until now, i wasn't affected, and journalists in general were not affected the case will not get into the because is a very competent case. i don't think it is reflected exactly -- there are other programs. the main target right now has not come. but let's push aside i am the

best proof because i gained his freedom. but this freedom is far of being something that one should take for granted. and in the last two years, there were real, real, real, very boring, very, very warring tendencies of mechanisms which like never before, chasing after ngos, after academia, after anyone who dared raise his voice. week after week there are new bills, threatening anyone who just dares. and as i said before, even the democracy for jewish citizen is very fragile. because we don't have any kind of checks and balances in israel. the problem is not those initiatives. the problem is all the agencies that should have kept us are totally either paralyze or

marginalized, or passive. the supreme court, the media, those should have been some kind of mechanism to keep the israeli democracy. and they don't. especially the supreme court with all its prestige. so society as i hinted about is changing this very same days. and those very same days. the problem is not the peace change. the problem is there is no one that can stop it. i wrote once an article, excuse me, with all the must acquit myself, waiting for the monster. if the real monster, most especially will come to power in israel, there's no one to stop them anymore. no one. yes, please. >> admittedly, it's still small

but could you comment on the boycotts of the campaign initiative but now seems civil society five years ago. it's going in the united states, in europe come in australia, a number of places, academic culture and also corporate. there's an attempt for the socially responsible investment company, and a whole bunch of different ways. could you comment on what impact you think that might begin to have? >> its first of all, gaining, gaining momentum. especially in europe but i guess also here, everywhere. i would like to say a few things. first of all, the boycott, israel is the first one she's boycott. let's remember, academic boycott, the palestinian diversity in the west bank, and

in gaza, and income israel is using this weapon and they lost. secondly, the question should be is effective or not? it shouldn't become a target. i understand the sentiment to punish the israelis, but it shouldn't be the target. it should be a means. and the question is, is effective? on one hand it's already very effective because it brings many people to action. i saw it in canada. i saw, i was in the u.k. a few weeks ago, it's like a wakeup call. people are joining and joining, at least in the west, this is a big sign. but the question is how will the israeli society respond? api to the. on one hand i can say very clearly the israelis don't pay any attention for the occupation. and as long as they don't pay anything for the occupation,

nothing will change. on the other hand, even when they pay, not always they see the connection between the occupation and what they pay. for example, this was a price, life in israel was quite horrifying. years 2002, 2003. life was really horrifying. but no is really made a connectioconnection between occupation and the punishment. and, therefore, it totally failed, it totally failed. didn't bring any achievement for the palestinian. and didn't change anything in the israeli society. it changed only a faith military direction. so the question is how will the israelis react to it? on one hand, many of my friends say just prevent an israeli from the next sale at macy's, and he returned the whole west bank and

gaza and the whole occupation is over because for a good sale, and sail -- sell anything. on the other hand, we saw already even if they pay, not necessarily leading to the right place. and we can expect the media and some of the government, tell the israelis here we face another holocaust, hear the word come again against us to the entire world, whatever we do, they are against us. and they will talk about villages in israel, which is not the case in most of the cases. but they will say it's not occupation. they want to destroy us. and then it will not have much faith of the israeli society. me, on one hand, is very positive in my eyes what is happening. on the other hand, i believe much more have pressure and israeli government, violate the

government, politicians will say. but let's see. yes, please. [inaudible] spirit my flight is leaving tomorrow. and tell them. last night. >> 4 p.m. >> you have spoken about how it changed only came in israel after they suffered a defeat of the wars. i would like to speak out about the united states, because the relationship that the united states has in maintaining israel and its occupation come and about what's happening here in this country. and something of not mention come and that is the rise of political islam, and the targeting of the united states by political islam and how this factors into the equation of what's happening. this general who said the support of israel is not in america's interest did not say

that because of some flippant remark, but because of what he understands is what's happening here. the united states has angered the muslims in the world, a billion and a half muslims. and israel and zionism is one of the main, major reasons for that. so that in my estimation opens up a possibility, and then obama came into office and for one reason and went to cairo and made his speech and went to istanbul, made his speech. he understands what the problem is. body feels constrained because of the policies of this country, but i think there is a possibility of a real opening here where there was not before, because just as israel power, response to power, that is what's going to change this country around. >> whenever you will see hope, i will see the opposite.

islamophobia as it is called in europe is going into the hands of israel. because don't forget that public opinion at least in europe are becoming more and more racist for their workers and immigrants, and mainly for the muslims. so it goes to this. and you can feel it now in europe very much. when it comes to islamophobia, so who is the shelter from this terrible nature, they stand against the islamic venture. it works for both direction. but i agree with what you described ultimately. yes, please. >> the young girl, and then you, sorry. the younger, so i, the younger. look, i'm one of the oldest here. [laughter] >> no offense.ggoggog >> i apologize.ggogogogoggogoo

>> i was just wondering if yougo consider yourself a sinus, and whether yes or no, how you define that term. >> can you find easier question for me? last night. >> i wrote a book about the punishment of gaza, not the punishment of gideon levy. [laughter] >> look, because those questions are questions that i really try to find my way, first of all the question, the definition of zionism. i don't know. it has occupation him i'm not only not there, i think basically what is today zionism, i am not a scientist. -- zionist. and design is good and something else i could have joined it. but it's not what i wish it would be. so i am not that, so. now the lady. the young lady.

>> in 1948, the u.s. military a short time after the u.s. recognition of israel, although it had been very, very much against the creation of the state, suddenly decided it was a very good thing. and they made their exit, decision very clear. they said it was a good thing because this new state had a very excellent military come and it could be useful for us in protecting our interest. and they went beyond that to talk about oil. that was 1948. you haven't said anything about the israeli role in u.s. foreign policy in the middle east. which is another dimension. and it may be worth some attention as well. >> i mean, we can cover it all and say, i'm also not an expert for everything. i don't like to speak about things that he don't know enough. let's remember that until 67,

the united states was not such an ally for israel. let's remember, it all started later picked israel had leaned much more on france been on the united states. nuclear united states -- was france, not united states. this only happen in the late '60s when this ally. and i don't think explanation, really for the american policy, i don't have it because the country that sends troops to iraq and afghanistan, so-called to save the world, and hear something which endangered the world much more i think it is viewed in the middle east and endangers the world much more than anytime with iraq together, because it feeds so many movement and so many hatred in the world.

and/or you don't need to send troops. and i don't understand. i don't get it, what america, white united states not more devoted than it is. rus, please.tmwmrqwmswrg >> thank you so much for your talk. but one thing i realize is you don't leave much room for hope. and i wanted to, as it ordinaryg citizen, or as a global citizeng what can we do -- user the onlyg hope for change is now fromqgqgg outside.qgqgqgqgqg and i see that perhaps this roog has a lot of activity.qgqgqgqoqg i see a lot of people doing work that doesn't really seem to be making any difference. what would you want an ordinary citizen, you know, to do, what would your advice be? >> first of all i really that any position to kill other people what to do. i hardly am capable to tell myself what to do. and speaking about the fact that i continue is maybe an

indication that the fact i could continue, i could move and become a restaurant critic, or i don't know what. i continue with what i do, so i do feel useful. i think that basically the role now a civil society is to come because there is still a big gap, at least in europe, it's what the public opinions and official positions, and the idea is to try to over bridge this gap between the government and the public opinion that the public opinions are much more progressive, much more impatient, and the governments are still way behind. so a way of activity would be such an activity. another way to isolate of activity, i just hope it will help. that's by far, not sure that it

will be effective as we wish it should have been effective. yes? >> i'm sure remember last month the pictures that received a lot of attention, media attention and israel and were condemned by the house, by the idea. why do you think those particular in touch with those pictures in particular i fended? >> let's tell the audience what it is about that it's a woman soldier who took pictures with all kinds of positions with detained palestinians with their eyes covered, and it made some kind of scandal in israel. look, this is a very typical way of israel to handling, from time to time, given that fit to all kind of emotions which are so

depressed by the brainwashed. so, from time to time we found ourselves something, and then we look so liberal in our eyes. here, we didn't. we had the general who was brought to court because he let his son a drive a military, what is a call from a tv. atv without having a license. he was brought to court and his career was ended. his military career. this very general, this very same general was twice involved in bombing the market in and killing many innocent civilians. and he was never brought to court for theirs. we always find ourselves all kind of -- that we look, so that tomorrow we are there's a

general who dare to lie would be brought to court. until recently the only soldiers who was brought to court was a soldier who stole from a palestinian. this was a big thing. we are a moral army. a soldier who took his credit card and used it. he would be brought to justice. so again, with those pictures, those pictures it's ridiculous because on one hand it was very good to show how soldiers react. but those pictures are not new to end this reality takes place everyday. and it came out of from time to time we make a small scandal to show that we are still moral and we still keep moral demands and moral values, and so forth and so forth. it's nothing. yes, please.

last question. yes, please. last but not late. >> thank you for your speech. as a journalist how would you define balance and objectivity and cutting the occupation? do you think that's important, in this that is so important and so balanced to one sides because i think it is very easy. it's about professionalism. it's about describing the reality as it is. there's nothing like being totally objective. you know, many times we say a photo is objective. it is not objected because it depends on whether photographer stood, and when did he take the picture. i can make a lecture about this when i teach journalism, i do it. out two different pictures which were taken within one second show i totally different reality, that even this is, this real objective truth between

those two pictures. there's nothing like this. but for years, at least myself, i knew one thing, that i should always stick to facts. i knew that they were looking for me and looking for my arrows and wanting me to describe something which didn't happen, to lose my liability. because once i lost it, i could never recover. and, therefore, in many cases, even with me, there were stories that i didn't publish it even though i was almost sure they were right. i remember once they brought me pictures of palestinian with a mark on his arm. and, you know, the connotation of the to in this part, i was suspicious. something didn't look, something looked fabricated. and i decided not to publish it, just to keep my credibility.

because we don't have to lose it. because once you lose it, then professionally nobody would take you serious. there was whole research about my arrows, and i was so proud of what they found was finally so ridiculous, i wrote about someone, he was lying there on the road and they found he died in the hospital, things like this. this is what i am fighting -- finally so myself. and i think any journalist who would really describe what he sees, what he hears, first, by the. that's one problem. israeli journalist, many western journalists, they don't going see. agosta gaza? going to gaza. go and see with your own eyes and tell what your impressions. but go and see, listen to the people. this is very, very easy. i mean, it is for journalists.

journalist internationalist have access. if they get the israeli invitation which is possible. it is not impossible. so it is about professionalism. i want to say last word. i can tell you, really, really that these kind of evenings gives me more hope, but i'm coming from this tour and this evening with more hope when i got here, because i am amazed again and again that there is still the level of knowledge at university, and his devotion that i feel here everywhere. and also the fact that our voices, we the small minority in israel, are not totally a waste. because at least there are some listeners and readers that oversee, not in israel, at least overseas some really grateful for this evening, and thank you for coming. thank you.

[applause] >> gideon levy writes the paper twice own column which covers the a occupation of gaza and the west bank that use basic the papers deputy editor. to find out more visitooktv haaretz.com. j speak we are now joined by two authors of the book, "seagull one: the amazing true story of brothers to the rescue." both authors join us here in miami. lily prellezo, what is brothers to the rescue? >> it was formed by jose basult? and a friend and and many buyern of 19 nationality that rescued g

the cuban rafters escaping time is cuba in the 1990s. it spotlight it'd have to be does formed? >> when government doesn't provide or doesn't, then you have a community in a necessity, you have to take action on your own. called -- i organized a group of pilots to work in the straits of florida and fly missions in tandem to locate the rafters coming out from cuba seeking freedom in the united states and fleeing the disaster of that island. >> what was the government policy that said brothers to the rescue in motion? >> well, the government -- there was no really government policy that set them in motion. what happened that called motion? >> well, it was all result of cuba's failed policies probably and people left by any means they could possibly come up

with, and there was all of sudden a surge of rafters leaving cuba, and one day, one young rafter, 15 years old, the coast guard filmed the rescue and died in the arms of the agent, and it was seen on the news and said we have to do something about this and that's how brothers to the rescue got started. >> when government doesn't suffice with what they provide, it's the coast guard that was extremely helpful to us and without them, we couldn't do our job. to find the rafters, that was our job and community's interest, and we implemented brothers to the rescue to provide for that need. >> how did you train the pilots, where did you find them, and what is sea gull one? >> okay. seagull one is my sign as a pilot. i was seagull one making the radio calls to the other pilots in the formations that we flew

to locate the rafters. the other pilots were from 19 nationalities who joined us in their interest to help others and it was a matter of helping brothers, and some came to gain hours as pilots, but believe me after you flew one or two missions there, you were hooked with the idea of saving lives or you simply left. we have three brothers from argentina, the original brothers to rescue, and alberto and -- they were the first pilots to all organize the group and locate the other pilots like themselves where young men were part of the community and were pilots already, so we recruited

pilots and recruit observers in the rear seats of the plane and carried members of the press, and there was no mission we didn't carry a member of the press with us because we wanted to document what was happening there to, you know, make everything what was happening in cuba and the reasons they were leaving the island so no better way to say that than the image of a rafter, of o person floating in the middle of nowhere in an intertube. that's what we were doing. >> lily prellezo, what about the clinton administration? did they not assist? >> brothers to the rescue never asked the u.s. government for help monetary or otherwise. of course the u.s. coast guard was instrumental because they lifted people out of the raft and saved their lives, but the clinton administration, what happened after the exodus of 1994 was that the policy changed, and the dry foot came

about, and then it was no longer viable to be rescuing or flying mission to rescue people just returned to guantanamo or returned to cuba. >> wet foot, dry foot policy? >> if a cube ban were leaving cuba and touched dry land, he could be processed for immigration. if they were intercepted at sea, they were returned to guantanamo. >> i want to say in the clinton administration was instrumental in terminating and three of our airplanes and i was flying one flew in a search and rescue mission and make cuba came after us and shot down two planes and i survived the third plane. the clinton administration was

aware that the attack from cuba was going to take place. all they did was document the attack, and what they could have done which was giving us a word of or a notice that this was impending to us. all they did was document it, and no only that they interrupted regular procedure of the defenses of the aircraft from homestead air base would take off to interpret cuba, and that was automatic standard operating procedure was interrupted and it had to have been from the white house. they were told to stand down battle stations at the precise moments that brothers of rescue needed to prevent the shootdown, so i am pointing me castle at castle for the shootdown, the natural enemy, and the clinton

administration for aiding and abetting the shootdown of the brothers to the rescue plane. > were you in cuban air space? >> international air space, and no matter where we would have been, there's no reason for a mink airplane to go out there. civilian aircraft with civilian pilots when they have been notified we had a search and rescue mission and contacted by radio. they know what we are doing there. we had been doing it for years, and they chose to kill a at that time, and the u.s. government having previous knowledge did nothing to prevent it. >> now, there was a flight over cuba; is that correct? >> there has been -- we took flights over cuba on three or four occasions in the past. one time the previous year, i flew over havana and there was a

demonstration for the cuban people, but that day, nothing, and we were forced or would have dropped leaflets there from international air space to cuba. this may be hard to come prehepped to someone who is not a pilot, but when the air is in favorable conditions, you can put leaflets on the other side of cuba from international air space. >> how did you find this story, lily prellezo? >> well, the story was always there. it's how the story found me is how it happened. a mu chiewl friend introduced me to jose, and he wanted someone to write the story, but never felt comfortable with anyone, so i feel honored i was chosen to write the story and i interviewed a hundred people to tell what it was like to be a brother or sister to the

rescue. >> how many people were lost in this rescue operation? >> you mean? >> brothers to the rescue? >> four people were murdered when the planes were shot down. four men lost their lives. >> how many rafters do you estimate that you helped? >> by 1994, we had already rescued 4200 rafters running our missions, and then after that, we rescued 30-some thousand more by assisting the coast guard when the 1994 exodus from cuba came about. in our own efforts, 4200 saved by the efforts of brothers to the rescue. >> were they returned to cuba? >> those 4200 no, and the 30,000 we assisted later, most of them

weren't, and from then on the policy changed to the wet foot dry foot policy, and the government started sending them back to cuba and renamed them migrants. they were refugees actually because the conditions in cuba made them refugees. it was handled with is a map ticks as -- sigh systematics as usually and they went back which was sad because the united states was involved in as many circumstances that made it necessary for those people to come back to come to the united states on 1962 i think it was or 63, the president then proclaimed the lull --

i'm forgetting, but it made it possible for the cubans to stay here and the law was not repealed or anything. it was just a mandate where the clinton administration to return them which has made so far the return of the cuban refugees possible back to the island, and -- >> now, tell us your history. when were you born in cuba, how did you get to the states #, and what's been your involvement in fighting the cube ban government? >> i was born in cuba, and as a young man, i was recruited by the cia, if you may, because we were working at the time with the internal organization in cuba called the mr, and cia promised to us that they were going to give us all the help we needed to change the government of cuba to a demographic

government. those were only words. that ended up and known later as bay of pigs. >> you were involved with that? >> yeah. i was sent back into cuba as a radio operator to send back information. in other words, intelligence to the u.s. on what was going on before the invasion, and everything they promised and said was going to be done on our behalf was simply betrayed. that included the invasion. >> now, what did your family do in cuba prior to your coming over to the states? >> my father used to work for a company, sugar sales, they were a u.s. company in cuba that, you know, was in the sugar industry. the ironny was fidel castro coming to power was something that we didn't like, like at

all. >> lily prellezo, tell us your background. >> i was born in cuba and came to the united states when i was 4 years old. my father was involved in the counterrevolution, so my older brothers and sisters had already come here, but my mother wanted me and my little sister out and put us on a plane by ourselves. i was 4 and she was 2. >> is that peter pan? >> no before that. that was 1960 but it was urgent that she had to put us on a plane, of course, it's only a 90 minute flight, but you know. when's the next time you saw your mother? >> i think a few months after that. >> she managed to get over? >> yeah, they came back and forth my father and her. >> how strong is the cuban community now in southern florida? is it still loyal to the

overthrow or have enough generations succeeded that it's less? >> it's less hard line in let's go to invade them. perhaps that sentiment is that strong, but there are people who would rather go and just, you know, invade physically, but i think there are more people open to speaking, opening relations, perhaps lifting the embargo. i know there's a lot of people that feel that way because they feel the only way to change things is to change it from within, and you can't if they don't have any information from outside, and that's the most important thing is to get information from the rest of the world inside of cuba. >> part of what bricks rescue, and that what made us a tart was to promote single disobedience to promote nonviolent approach and reclaim human and civil

rights of the cuban people. we started sending literature to the island and slogans like i am the change and that meant you assumed respondent for your circumstances, and if you want to change, we have to have it ourselves and not expect the u.s. to do it for us, and other messages like establishing our relationship to one another look the one that says let congress know brothers to not break that communication in cuba that the government had a footing to them to call each other and to us that was a bad word. we wanted to call each other brothers, and in the mission of brothers to the rescue, i say the second object after the saving of lives was the first. in reaching the cuban communities with a message of we care about you. there is such thing as human

solidarity. we are willing to risk our lives to save yours, and we will be there for you to assist you in the land that you decide to not take in anymore and come to the u.s. by whatever means. >> now, in the book, "seagull one," you identify the god mother. >> yes, i interviewed the congresswoman who is close friends with jose. she was there to take their needs to a higher place in the government. that's what god parents do. they know someone to get something for you that you can't get yourself, and she worked tire leslie for brothers to the rescue. >> she got the coast guard to come to our call. >> fidel castro has stepped

down, and has policy changed? is there more trade and travel between cuba? could you go back or lily, could you go back? >> i don't think i could go back to cuba. i think they would shoot me on site. they missed the first time, but i don't know that they would the second time. i don't think there's been changed or fidel castro as seized to be the ultimate voice on the io land and his brother consults with him and managing on a higher level the country for his brother, but nevertheless, it's still his brother. >> i would love to go back and have a book signing there. i would love to get this story inside of cuba. it would be great. >> some are going back and forth. can you fly from miami? >> yes, you can. i don't have family there, and i would love the see the country where i was born because i