former senator trent lott who made a fortune suing tobacco companies. mr. scruggs was later sent to prison and pleaded guilty to bribing a mississippi state judge. this event hosted by turnrow book company in greenwood, mississippi lasts about one hour and ten minutes. [applause] >> thank you, jamie. it's going to be -- good to be back in greenwood. i see a lot of old friends faces in the audience, and glad to be here. always fun. jamie mentioned i have my own heddell tough background and my wife, nancy, is a bonafide delta girl from clarksdale, and so we are both delighted to be here with you. i will just talk a little about the book and read a brief passage with some local greenwood angle, more than one

greenwood character in the book and then most importantly i want to devote most of our time to dealing with any questions that you have, because the book is created some controversy, and i am perfectly happy to be up front and deal with any questions or whatever. i became interested in doing this book almost immediately. i teach at all old miss, and i know dickie scruggs and people who can characters in the book. and i knew right away that there was something more to the story than pictures. it was developing. because the first time that i met dick scruggs was a 1990's. i was still a reporter for the "boston globe," and i was on the coast doing a story that involved squabbles over asbestos money. there were allegations that some

of the money had been misspent stalked away somewhere. there were squabbles between scruggs and a couple of his former associates. the are just now played out and form part of the book. and importantly, i learned that dick scruggs had faced an indictment that was going to be thrown up by the jackson district attorney at the time, and peters, and that the central figure in the plot to indict dick for improperly taking asbestos litigation on behalf of the state. it had been drummed up by steve patterson, who was at the time the state auditor, and was designed not only to bring down scruggs, but to basically bring down like more, the attorney general and a good friend of scruggs. so fast forward two years later

or so and suddenly dick scruggs and steve patterson are said to be partners in crime. so some things bigger a foot than a simple white collar crime and so i began to try to peel back some of this onion like the russian dolls. you open one and there's another and another. i discovered it is a huge story basically for us mississippians because there is so much of our history and politics involved in this. this is not a story about a simple bribery, not that a bribery is simple, but this is a story that spans several decades. it goes back for purposes of my

book i go back to the early days of what we all knew in mississippi as the east and organization. it was an organization, of course, controlled by senator jim eastland, and they were fixing cases and scratching each other's back and punishing enemies years ago. and it's not necessarily that everybody involved was a nefarious character. some of them were just in it for politics. but there was a rogue element in the east and organization, and after eastland resigned from the senate he didn't run for reelection in 1978 and effectively as far as the washington connection passed at the hands of trent lott who got to be dick scruggs brother-in-law. okay? so following meal but so far it gets thicker and more interesting and more intriguing.

it was at least to me. there were several boyte folks i had in the course of my reporting. i consider myself basically an old reporter. i've been reporting all of my career and i teach reporting and writing now at old miss. the first real breakthrough for me was that dick scruggs finally began to talk to me and talk to me extensively before he went to prison, and he's continued to correspond with me. we talked on the phone a few times. i've visited him in confinement. dick was not at first willing to talk with me. we were friends. we are friends. present tense. the whole thing was awkward, and after he pleaded guilty and was sentenced, it suddenly became apparent to me that he was willing to talk because one day

he went to lunch with his son, zak, and zack had already been talking to me just pouring out stuff because zach pleaded guilty to a lesser charge and felt that he was really collateral image in all of this as much of that is portrayed in the book. but dick came to lunch with zach and me one day and began talking and he told me then about how he had been addictive to painkillers that i had never heard this and then basically one of the factors that affected his judgment. he had back surgery in the year 2000. he became loading up on this stuff and is ordering it on the internet and some of his close friends leader confirmed to me that yes, dick was it really affected his thinking and

character and a lot of people said they want nothing to do with you after noon. he would just kind of go bonkers so that is perhaps one explanation for what happened. but i think we come up with a number of other forces and factors that are at work in his story. importantly to me was the cooperation of the prosecutors. some of the central figures in the prosecution and the investigation. he was very generous and talking to me and john who initiated the investigation. by that time he had retired and actually had an office next to mine at old miss. john was very helpful in leading of the early groundwork. tom paulson, was a chief prosecutor spent four days all of four mornings with me in my office after he retired,

spelling out the story and tom said he was talking to me at such length because he wanted their side of the story to get out. then jim greenly, who was at the time the u.s. attorney and in charge of all of this -- jim also was very generous in talking to me, and while he was not as forthcoming as the other two, it would abuse me if he felt i was off track, so i appreciated their cooperation and saying that the book is mostly dimensional, it is not told from any one perspective, i to live in a third person narrative. there is no retribution in the book itself, but about 40 pages host foot notes in the back where you can get a pretty good idea of where i got the informational though in quite a few instances it's from

confidential sources. and speaking of confidential sources, probably the most important thing i got my hands on was a set of the secret fbi wiretap recordings collected during the investigation and to listening to hours of the conversations between judge henry lecky and the guy basically the delivered the bride and became then the state chief witness in the case or i should say the federal government's chief witness conversations with steve patterson and a number of other people are on these recordings and listening to them ali am able and hope i'm able to deliver to the reader a much more comprehensive story of what went on the and what you were reading in the newspapers because it scratched the surface and i think it will raise some

questions about how the investigation was carried out. and then for the green with consumption, i would say i'm not sure that many of you know he really was a mystery man in this whole story, and i was able to obtain a 25-year-old deposition in jackson in connection with a lawsuit he brought against the ledger because of a series of stories the had written about them. he sued them for libel. he didn't get anywhere with the lawsuit but there's all sorts of backgrounds, hundreds of pages. i spent two days going through this deposition and learned a whole lot of blake, who scored

my appetite but remains something of a mystery, and of course he is living in birmingham. nancy and i were in birmingham yesterday. he did dhaka come to my signing. [laughter] so, let me just read you a brief passage from very early in the book and to establish the context this is in 1992 when steve patterson the state auditor is trying to get dick scruggs indicted, as i say this book goes we back. it doesn't start in 2007 when dick scruggs office is treated and he is indicted the next day. the story goes way back. one evening in 1992 s scruggs struggled to deal with the case

patterson and peter is were building against him he received a telephone call at his home from a man named t. all bleak. i know what's going on and i'm going to help you, he told scruggs. you need to see me. blake was corrupted but he understood the significance of his call. blight's name wasn't recognizable in most households in mississippi, about among the the political, he was regarded as one of the original agents who still had the ability to fix things. blake contacted him, scruggs believed, at the direction of his brother-in-law, trent lott, who had the conservative power structure laughter east land's departure from the scene. scruggs at first been introduced to blink a decade before by trent lott's chief aide, tom anderson. scruggs had been told by anderson that there was a friend

in the delta who needed help. blake owned several thousand fertile acres in mississippi and a group of grain elevators in texas. but he faced bankruptcy and needed assistance and filing chapter xi, while trying to salvage much of his wealth. during the period, scruggs handled mostly mundane bankruptcy proceedings. still, he was fascinated by the intrigue of politics and eager to become an inside player himself. scruggs built to resolve his financial problems and while handling the bankruptcy issues, he became personally involved in defending belleek in a criminal case. blake had been charged with offering officials of mississippi bank $500,000 in bribes in order to get $21 million in loans. scruggs worked with bleak's

criminal defense lawyer, a well-connected future republican senator from tennessee named fred thompson to will pull down to a misdemeanor. blake pleaded guilty to lesser charges in the state jail. the hand of the eastland ring was prominent in the disposition of the case. blake early brief notoriety for the scandal and of remained a mystery in mississippi. no one knew how he gained such wealth. by normal standards, he should have been the stuff of a horatio alger dale. he grew up in a shack in a tallahassee county village in the mississippi delta and worked his way out of of security on the playing field but mississippi state. blake was a standout on the state's undistinguished football team for the 1950's and the

leading receiver in 1959 was the total of six passes in an era of ground games and strong defense. for a while, blake played football in canada before resettling in the delta as a farmer. some time in the 1960's, he became prosperous, acquiring loans to buy a property while assuming a semblance of importance in greenwood as an officer in eastland's army. like his patrons, blake worked in the background. when the legislature was in session, he could be seen patrolling the halls of the state capital or treating messages after hours with officials in jackson lounges. he did not seek public office. he did not openly support candidates to lead to general public had no idea that blake represented power behind the scenes. yet politicians knew he was one of the most important go to guys

in the state. when david boeing, a young adult politician in with a harvard degree, decided to run for congress in 72, he was told that blake's approval was essential to deliver the organizations report. boeing got eight and won the election. cochran was given the senate fisa in 1978 when he decided to run for the senate seat that eastland jeal did, he called blake. cochran talk to blake on the phone, asked for his help and secured it, but the two men never really melded after he conceded eastland. blake, like many members of the eastland organization, moved to an alliance with cochran's rival in the republican party, trent lott. despite his connection, blake was seldom floated and rarely photographed. he existed like some sort of the enigmatic delta. over the years he bought more land and made substantial investments, lost much of it,

yet lived comfortably in a big house in greenwood. it was to this place that blake summoned scruggs in the summer of 1992. both scruggs hadn't seen blake in years he was familiar with his own. he had spent nights there in the previous decade dealing with blake's problems. now it was blake's turn to reciprocate. when scruggs told his wife of the trip, and began to wonder what hold blake might have over her husband to summon him to travel 300 miles to the delta. to die again, blake should have been inundated to dick. blake should have been disciplined rather than the one to hold the court. skycam had began to wonder about some of her husband's associates outside of the sphere of their friends. and is rushed to succeed she began dick had taken untrustworthy partners into oil consorting with others and seemed to her a bit crude and

reaching. to diane, the connection seemed out of sync with her husband's personality. dick had always exuded a special charm, she remembered, even during the childhood days when he was a fatherless boy and she was the daughter of a popular dentist. she became attracted to him after he developed manners that made him seem downright dubner in the years after he went away to college. by the time the two of them returned as a couple, it was as though he were refined and acceptable to the locals, yet for all of his social skills, dick was drawn to men bearing the appearance of impropriety. despite diane's misgivings, scruggs flew on his private plane to greenwood's small town airport where blake met him. you helped me a lot, blake told

scruggs. now i'm going to help you. after they reached blake's house in an upscale neighborhood, scruggs was told to wait in the living room and relax. somebody is going to be here in about 30 genex that you need to talk to, blake said. soon scruggs was astonished to see steve patterson are rife. blake and greeted the state auditor warmly but had a few scalding words. waiting and scruggs to the action, blake told patterson this is chicken shit stuff, want you to back off. you want to go after somebody, you know whether somebody else. patterson has already gotten to others because he did not object. the case was effectively settled that might in blake's living room. patterson but not only write to the district attorney a letter stating that, quote, the auditor found no evidence of criminal conduct on the part of

mr. scruggs, but patterson would even send a letter to louisiana officials hailing scruggs for, quote, an outstanding job in the asbestos litigation on behalf of the people of mississippi, and of quote. patterson recommended the state of louisiana to how your scruggs to serve as counsel on asbestos cases. for his part, scruggs agreed to reduce his expense claims in the state by $63,000. to submit the understanding to the form of a new bond, blake proposed the three men to a greenwood restaurant that featured prime rib pork chops which is private curtain both and the drinking clientele it was a throwback to the prohibition days and one of the most popular spots in the dhaka. to place with the clamor of good times in a drunken food fights the patrons occasionally launch

rolls over the curtains or butter to the ceiling to see how long they might add here before falling on someone's head. how many of you guys have thrown of butter on to the ceiling? [laughter] i think i have. although i'm told that moscow said they never served prime rib and pork chops? never did? will i guess i am in precise on that part, but i know they sometimes didn't always have paabo. anyway, i apologize to luscow. anyway, they represented a picture, but scruggs couldn't fully enjoy himself the beginning. he had a sense of relief. the criminal charges were never materialized. still, he had difficulty meeting. his stomach had tension as he reflected on the raw power he had just seen exercised.

eastland was six years did but his organization with don. still capable of fixing cases, blocking investigations, finding satisfactory solutions for the political allies, and creating insurmountable obstacles for the enemies. scruggs suddenly felt as though he had become a made man of the character anointed by the mafia. he was not exactly at ease with the role growing from his memory of science fiction films rather than a inkster efiks he had a term from the 1977 movie star wars better describes the people with whom he was dealing. they constituted, he thought, the dark side of the force. i will be happy to take any kind of questions that you might have. [applause]

an excuse, relieved. tim. >> talk about the judge if you would. your book -- will find interesting reading it is the portrayal in the media is that he was quite a hero. your book portrayed him a little bit more complex than that, and some ways suggested he may have felt entrapped him into the bribery case. selected everybody here the question? okay, they want a full portrait of judge henry lackey. i will try not to filibuster. judge mikey would not talk to me. he talked to a number of other reporters. for some reason he refused to talk to me. i originally sent him a letter and even include a couple of references including the friend and neighbor who was also a circuit judge and i called his

office once and got no response to recalled again and the secretary said you are the fellow writing a book. anyway, he never talked to me, so i want to make that clear. first of all, however, i heard a great deal of judge henry lackey on those recordings. i also obtained his personal journal that the fbi asked him to keep. it's very clear and having said that i should also emphasize judge lackey as a clean an honorable record as a judge. in fact, he is the last person on earth scruggs or anybody connected with scruggs should have approached to do a favor for scruggs because dick had basically a progressive democrat, henry lackey is a very conservative republican and has

been. it's clear from the recordings henry lackey didn't think very highly of the trial lawyers. dick is the antithesis of henry lackey. dick is sort of cosmopolitan in oxford and henry lackey is down and calvin city and called himself a country bumpkin. importantly, when jim baldacci approached henry lackey to ask for a favor, it was dick scruggs had bought statewide full-page ads in his campaign to drive george bail out of office, an advertisement was particularly offensive to people who liked george. that was the infamous lipstick on the big ad in which george dick is portrayed as a pig and being attended by state farm,

people at a state farm beauty salon. turns out henry lackey and george dale are friends and serve on the board of mississippi college together. you get all of that and you get to mildew g3 days later approaching judge lackey who baldoucci looks upon him as his mentor and as one very prominent member of the are said to me later, he said i can't understand what motivated henry lackey to through this young man, baldoucci, under the bus in order to get scruggs because from that moment on, it was never, ever any offer of money to henry lackey. the thing had happened. henry lackey waited for two weeks before he reported to the federal authorities and the decanter interested then and

there is certainly an indication that not all of the federal prosecutor's fault very highly of dick scruggs either. this is a guy that is a lightning rod. he's a powerful guy with powerful enemies. lackey tries to began to tape some of the conversations with baldoucci on the phone, but the system doesn't work. they bring in the fbi and a lawyer of his phone, and there are a series of telephone conversations between judge lackey and baldoucci. nothing happens. finally, baldoucci i.t. realizes what he's doing is improper. he has used this approach judge lackey is improper. scruggs knew about the approach. he was authorized to make it. so it was an improper and

unethical for baldoucci to approach judge lackey any way. whether it is a crime or not, it's questionable. federal government will say that baldoucci in one conversation suggested when judge lackey retired he might want to join baldoucci's firm in the council's position, but it's a very small potatoes and i tend to discount that myself, although i try not to make any assertions in the book. but, you know, here now that the book is written, i'm happy to be elaborate on it a bit more. finally, baldoucci says judge, i would never do anything there would make you uncomfortable. i am so basically sorry that i made this approach. i am paraphrasing this with some of the direct dialogue is in the book. judge lackey decides to take

himself out of the case. he recuses himself from the case that he's hearing that involves scruggs as a defendant in a lawsuit brought by johnny jones, who had been one of the partners and scruggs group. ..

>> he and patterson formed a new firm, and they are desperate to latch on, so he commits and says, well, i'm sure, judge, that he would. judge makes another call and this is with the fbi and government basically telling him what to say. you got to ask for money and make sure the name is there. the judge does that in a series of phone calls, asks for $40,000. they produce the cash, brings it down to the judge finally in late september, six months after the first approach, and at this point, clearly a crime has been

committed. he is eventually encouraged to reimburse him by pl blake at a meeting in the birm l ham -- hirpling -- birmingham airport. he writes a check for $40 thousands, and therefore he is a part of the crime. dick will insist at that point it's still murky, and he says he don't know what he was committing the 40,000 too. dick is guilty. he pleaded guilty in open court, but he does say, he said, in open court, i came to the con conspiracy late. he was drawn into it and i'll close off by saying dick's lawyer from san fransisco, a very good and powerful criminal defense lawyer explained to me

how it was not technically entrapment, but it seems like it. he was not actually and agent of the federal government, therefore, it wasn't entrapment, but he thought, i call a strong motion around outrageous conduct by the federal government in creating the crime, and that was heard before judge biggers in oxford and listened to it for three hours not allowing them to call judge lackey and dismissed it. judge lackey refers to him in the journal as scum and scum of the earth, and in open court later in another side case, he referred to him as a monster, so, you know, this is hardly a man that was kind of favorably

disposed to dick to begin with, so i hope i haven't rambled on too long, but i'm prepared to talk about this at length because judge lackey i understand and other people have accused me of taking some $750,000 from the book. i thought it was funny one i was first told about it, and then i thought about it, and it's insulting. i'm willing to take on any of these people, including the judge or any of his confederates. >> how do you think he handled the sentencing? >> the judge has a reputation for being pretty stern, no nonsense guy. he is a friend of mine. you know, during this whole

period of doing a book, i would see him and it's like an 800 pound gorilla between us, and i've never talked to him because it's still an active case, and so i have not talked to him about the book, but everything i use in the book, every quote comes straight from the bench of what he said in open court. i thought he was, at times, a little too stern, but he has a reputation for being stern. i think, you know, neil is a fine judge. i think he is handling such things splendid, and i think, you know, whatever i'm saying, i think he's essentially a very good judge. >> this is a fairly short time after such a big story to come out with a book, but do you

expect that the story is going to go on? is this -- >> do i expect the story to go on? i don't expect to write a sequel. [laughter] i think it's close to be wound up. you know, there's still a little side stories that are involved and there's a motion before the judge to vacate his conviction. it's very complicateed drawing upon a supreme court decision on the services so that he is arguing that the charge of this felony to which he pleaded was a agreed upon charge, that indently thought he was not going to get any time of prosecutors with their agreement of one binding, but they said,

as far as we're concerned, you won't do any time, and i think as an example, the judge instead of accepting the prosecutor's recommendation with no time just gave him 14 months, so this case is still being heard. there is another side story that was not known at the time, but i discovered that the attorneys and fbi at oxford had been at war with each other for six years and won't speak to each other. it all started after 9/11 when u.s. attorney's acted in connection with the war on terrorism for every convenient store owner or operator of muslim or arab desent, and the fbi in oxford objected to it on

the grounds that it, you know, was not authorized. it could not be authorized. many of the people were american citizens, and some of them were informants to the fbi with respect to crystal meth investigations. people went to the stores to by pseudofed to make crystal meth. they were outraged with the u.s. attorney's office, and u.s. attorney's office didn't like the fbi. the u.s. attorney's office has now indicted the special agent in charge of the oxford office who is going to stand trial beginning monday in oxford, a man named hal nelson who i think is from indianola originally. that's still being played out, and when the u.s. attorney's office started this investigation, they made sure

that nobody in the oxford fbi office knew about it, and they went to jackson to the southern district to get an fbi agent from jackson, so the fbi there ran the operation and the people in oxford were except in the dark, and they only learned about it through, you know, channels within the justice department, and they were quite annoyed that they had been cut out of the operation. , it's not a pretty story, but it's very ugly and sad all around for just about everybody involved. people have told me, oh, you've written a book without a hero, and i think i have. i don't think there's a hero in the book. there's a number of people who tried to portray themselves as heros. i don't think there's any hero in the book.

>> what about the -- >> i'm sorry? >> [inaudible] >> okay, yeah, exactly. trent laut actually announced his retirement on monday after thanksgiving. dick's office was raided on tuesday, and he was indicted on wednesday, so it's an extraordinary coincidence. i've been asked that repeatedly. all i can say is i've tried. i've come up with no evidence that there was a connection there, although, there are some fbi agents who believe that u.s. attorneys leak the information to trent and whether trent knew about it, would that be enough to force him to resign? i don't think so, so i have

nothing to suggest there was a connection that it was anything other than just a crazy coincidence. i mean, i was suspicious too. i think a lot of people were, but i found nothing. yes, sir? >> i have not read your book yet, and i intend to read it, but you mentioned earlier about the involved robberies years ago. you go back into the days, and i believe steve patterson -- >> yeah, thars correct. -- that's correct. steve patterson worked for mississippi bank, and there's some other people who -- >> [inaudible] >> yeah, exactly, and i know in my research i came up with an old, i believe, clear and ledger story they had into-wide --

info-wide of information of his phone records when he was state auditor, and they showed an extraordinary numbers of phone calls to pl blake. they are close. you know, they're right up there with this group that dick called the dark side of the force. they had been in working together for yeas. -- years. there's one recording in patterson is describing a scene where joye langston, another lawyer in prison too, had gone to see steve patterson, and pl blake calls patterson's home while langston is there, and patterson didn't want langston to know he was talking to blake,

but steve's wife said honey, mr. pl is on the phone, and you can see patterson going, oh, god, she shouldn't have said that, so no question that, you know, they've been involved for a long time, and they were involved in this case, you know, and having said all of that, tim asked me the other day in the story you may have read here in greenwood on sunday, so why was wasn't pl blake indicted on this? the response that i'll address to the u.s. attorney's office, but just like, you know, the trent lot connection, i dug and i dug and i dug, and i have come up with nothing in my research that indicates anything that pl blake did that was criminal in this case. >> did you come up with any -- [inaudible] >> another good question.

[laughter] you know, clearly, he was gaining a lot of these loans through banks that had deep connections to the eastland organization, and it was being -- it was coming not only from mississippi bank, but other banks in mississippi, and he's also, as you may know is getting some favorable loans from the administration here, and he got into trouble because he had gone out and gotten billy estes's grain elevators in texas. the people who have hair like mine remember that. [laughter] he had about a billion bushels of beans that disappeared, and there's all sorts of crazy stuff, but, you know, he was getting money from the federal government, and clearly, after

senator eatland passed from the scene, it was people close to trent who were doing favors for him. one guy named jim lake who had been ronald reagan's press secretary in the campaign had an instrumental point in helping pl blake getting the farmer home loans administration in the 1980s, so he was gathering in from all sorts of sources, and everybody i talked to is mystified. everybody remembers him as this poor boy from tallahassee county, but, you know, he's got a lot of friends too. you know, played football at the same time i was at ole miss, and i was at the cotton bowl two years ago, and there were two guys who knew pl.

one was went lovis who worked for a bank who had also begin loans to pl. i asked them about pl. they said, we're not saying anything bad about pl. we loved pl. [laughter] david bowing, a former congressman, i asked david, david says, oh, i know pl. i loved pl. david called pl blake for me to see if he would talk to me, and he basically, no way in hell will i talk to that guy. [laughter] i had had a heard time getting a -- i had a hard time getting a picture of him. i don't know how old that picture is, 20 years old? that's the picture of him in the book. he's a real mystery man. yes, sir? >> as i recall, was it $250,000 fine? >> right. $250,000. >> i thought it would be a lot

larger fine for something like that. >> maybe judge biggers is tempering things with mercy and fining him only $250 thowrk, he did -- 250,000, he got five years for the first senates and pleaded guilty involving the judge in jackson, he got an acin additional -- additional two and a half, and i was calculating how much more time he's looking at and ran into rick at the football game, a financial add vie advisor. he began calculating, and we figured that he has about four years to go yet. yeah? >> what all have you discovered that ed peters had to do with this? what role did he play? >> he had a lot to play.

what role did ed peters play in this? this was a man who was district attorney in jackson for close to 30 years. the only time i ever dealt with peters is when i covered the third trial in 1994 bringing up yet another local angle. you people in greenwood, you sure know how to produce them, don't you? [laughter] i had no idea of how shady peter's background was. he, he was a key figure in what the federal investigators call skrogg two. it was involving dodge delauter, a judge of peters in the case, and another friend of mine, and

so many of these people are friends of mine or might be former friends of mine by now, i don't know. [laughter] in the course of hearing this case, there was yet another case brought by former associate by the name of bob wilson, another guy from losville and had a suit going on for 20 years arguing over the distribution of asbestos money, and it finally lands in the judge's hands. it's gone through other courts, federal courts, finally gets there and joey langston who was a lawyer in booneville, dick turns the case over to joe langston with his own

connections. steve patterson had once worked for him, and this came third hand the idea from peters. they hire peters for what's going to be, i think, effectively a million dollars if he'll be helpful in the case, and turns out he is whispering in bobby's ear, and then peaters come up with the idea that he ought to call the judge and see if he's interested in a federal judgeship. it goes from peter to steve patterson to joey langston to skroggs. he calls up his brother-in-law and says he's a good guy, went

to law school with him, he's a moderate, a democrat, one who you might consider of one of several people, so trent does make the phone call to bobby, and trent will say that he didn't know he was overseeing this case, and i'm prepared to believe him on that, but again it was improper, and them what was real improper is he is in giving these sensitive opinions for peters for the side to review to make sure that the rulings are proper and so, peters says the heart of this case, so what happens to peters? same thing that happened to pl blake, nothing. [laughter] peters is being interrogated by

the federal authorities, fbi, and the prosecutors, and they reduce his lawyer to tears at this point, and tom dawson, the chief federal prosecutor walks into the room and he got up and hugged dawson because he was so glad to see him. dawson confirmed to me that peters did hug him cialg they did know each other from another case back whenever. whatever, dawson basically is the federal prosecutor who recommends that peters get immunity in exchange for his testimony against the other people, so peters who, you know, may be the biggest snake in the whole bunch is free.

so it's, like i say, it's not a pretty story. how -- i'll get to you in just a second. i got one here. >> through all of the things, to me, in a way, the judge was probably the most innocent. i mean, if you think about the stuff they say that he was asked to get the income, but did judge say i want the judgeship, would you go ahead and do that? i never felt like he did. >> what happened was i think his problem was that, you know, no judgeship was ever offered nor was it going to be offered because trent decided to give it to allen peppers, his former roommate, if i'm tracking rightment i think i'm right. i may be mixing up judgeships, but bobby was never going to get

the judgeship any way, nor was it offered, but the problem was that he apparently shared some of the draft of decisions with the people who were representing skroggs which was improper, but what bobby was ultimately convicted of was lying to an fbi officer. that's what he was convicted of. back in the back. >> if you haven't, would you comment on the outrageous misconduct for just -- >> i did, but yeah, i can -- i did. i talked about the motion at some length, but glad to see you here. if we have any other questions, you deserve the floor. [laughter] yes, sir.

>> i will call reading some of the transcripts posted on the interpret. everything on the internet is true, and everybody knows that. these are the transcripts from the wiretaps. i got it off the website, and one of the things most incredible to me out of all of it and least significant was towards the end when they go back to lackey and try to talk about fixing a dui homicide case, and he basically blatantly says i think i can get money from these people, and you and i can split it. i never heard anything else about it, and that to me when reading all of that, that was probably as a lawyer, one of the most defensive things that i read in all of it because a lot of the other conversations were implied and so forth, you know, of course, absent payment of the

money, but this is just blatant money, we're going to fix this case and split this money. whatever happened to that? >> there was a little bit written about that in the papers when that transcript was entered into the record, and i touch on it in my book. it shows to the degree, i think, to which he felt by this time comfortable in suggesting deals to judge lackey, and if i recall, it was $20,000 that he said, judge, you keep $10,000, and i get the other 10 if you fix this dui homicide. >> [inaudible] >> it was. it was outrageous. it was a son of the a state official who i did not name in the book because i don't, you know, i have no idea whether he

knew that they were doing? like that, but no, you're correct. >> is it part of a plea bargain against skroggs? nothing, as i understand, was done about that. i mean, -- >> no, i don't think they ever charged him with anything on that. he represented himself. he -- it was literally within the hour of that conversation that he is grabbed by the fbi and brought to oxford to meet with the prosecutors. they didn't arrest him, but they basically knew -- he knew that his life as he knew it was over, and he began spilling his guts there that morning, and then they wired him up, and it was november 1, 2007, and that is when he went to the

law firm, and it's extraordinary to listen to that recording because if i just gone through what he had, you know, my life is destroyed, am i able to then go up to these friends and attempt to insnare them while i'm wired? he did. he did an incredible job. it was an amazing performance as was judge lackey through all of this. i think i've said in the book that judge lackey, you know, was like an actor from somewhere. i mean, he never betrayed anything. one other thing in the grand jury testimony, and i got the transcripts of the testimony before the grand jury, he lied repeatedly, and he lied at times

of being led by the u.s. prosecutors who should have known he was lying. one of the -- at one point he says that he went and talked to sog conversah was indicted largely based on the fact that he lied on a number of points in the grand jury testimony. >> who was the u.s. attorney -- [inaudible] >> bob norman led the questioning before the grand jury. okay. anybody got anything else? i feel like i'm being, have not been cross examined or examined or something. i don't mind. [laughter] i'll sign books or talk until the cows come home on this one. way back in the back again. >> some of the -- [inaudible]

>> again, i can't hear you. >> skroggs has a motion pending to set aside the conviction which in my opinion is strongly based in the supreme court opinion. >> yeah, my sense is that zach has a motion to government yesterday i believe or maybe it's the day before, answered his motion, and they have come up with their own calendar to his, and now zach is in the process of his lawyers of yet another motion against the federal government. at some point the judge is going to hear it, and some people tell me they feel that zach has a chance of winning, but paul miner thought he was going to win on the same sort of thing, and the u.s. supreme court would not review his case, and i think

that the skroggs people felt that was a setback, but lord, i'm not a lawyer. >> one involved in the case, i represent miner -- no, there's two or three issues there, but that was not there. >> okay. most involved on the services, didn't he? >> well, right. they do, but this is a different type of issue. i don't want to get into the legal stuff or anything like that, but they are two sprit issues. >> okay. >> and the one that zach is not involved in, and this is like a new issue before the court. >> charlie? >> i thought -- [inaudible] >> were you familiar with that? are you familiar with that? it was confidential, and they were not supposed to do it. >> also, you're a lawyer.

my understanding is lie detector tests are not admissible in court. it's my understanding -- i have a passage in the book about this, not so much about zach, but they said others lied, and he he is, i'm told by others that the conclusion by the fbi is that if they were inconclusive and not that they had lied and there is a passage in here, i looked it up yesterday, i think i can find it, and this is after phil had pleaded guilty and had been sentenced, and this is after you do this is you are required to take a polygram.

they knew that. this is after he appeared in court. it was not done required by the plea agreement and would be interrogated that afternoon and would submit to lie detector tests and implicate zach and close the circle on the last deft, but through three hours of questioning, he gave them little more evidence than they already had. he said zach had not been in the room to hear the remarks, nor did zach know of any spir sigh to bribe judge lackey. he had credit card receipts to prove they were in new orleans the day they claimed to talk in oxford about the lackey bribe. there were other instances where he was prepared to demonstrate that there were lies.

the attorneys who were with him told moore, mike moore one of the defense attorneys for zach, shortly afterwards that they had exonerated zach, so i was told and i looked up a footnote. a footnote is that information coming from sid who i interviewed in prison and from frank trapp, the attorney, and other confidential sources. i can't reveal who the others are, but i felt i had this on good enough authority to have it in the book that nothing that they had would indicate that either zach or sid did lie. now, i'll be interested in what they come up with. to be continued.

>> one more thing. what -- there was a supreme court case that came down this summer that, you know, said as applied to cases like ear wigging that's nondisclosure that should have been disclosed to the authorities or concealment. it said that that no longer constitutes a criminal violation on a services statute. >> yeah. >> that is the only thing that zach pled to. they made it real clear at the plea hearing including the judge's statements and all that zach was not in any way pleaing -- there's another type of honest services, and that's honest services bribely, and they made it clear he was not pleading to that. the supreme court hailed that nondisclosure concealment that zach pled to no longer

constitutes violation of services. >> yeah. i'm glad there's a lawyer here to explain it because i've thrown up my hands on that whole honest services argument, but not only does zach feel he has a strong argument, i've had a number of other strong lawyers who don't necessarily like him and feel there's a good case and argument and has a chance to win it, so that's, you know, that's, you know, i was asked about whether the story is over, you know, some of these things are still playing out, but i think the basic story is over. okay. yes, ma'am. >> i have not read your book, but is there a monetary bribe by the judge? >> yes, ma'am. yeah, there was never any -- the judge was basically --

it was patterson suggested to skroggs when judge lackey got the case. tim knows the judge, he can go down and ask a favor and ask him to send it to arbitration, and so the have says fine, and that was improper. he should never have been, you know, delegating to go down there, and he did, but never any mention of any money until six months later at the p instigation of the federal government that judge lackey then suggested he needed $40,000 to get over the hump. there was never any money offered to him by anybody in the case. the money came in response to his request for it. that's why i think and a lot of

people thinks facts of entrapment. it's not to exonerate the people who never should have been engaged in this activity to begin with, but, you know, i've got some question about the tactics that the federal government used in pursuing these defendants. anything else? well, okay. thank you all for coming out. i enjoyed meeting with you. [applause] thank you. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] >> this event was hosed by turnrow book company in mississippi. visit them online at

turnrowbooks.com. >> with are now joined by two authors. the true story of brothers to the rescue in collaboration with jose. what is brothers to the rescue? >> it was an organization formed

by jose and a friend and many pilots of nationalities who rescued the rafters fleeing communist cuba in the 1990s. >> why was it formed? >> when government doesn't provide or suffice, and you have a community in it in necessity, you have to take action on your own, and this is something that's called self-help, so i organized a group of pilots to go to the straits of florida and fly missions in tandem so that we would locate the rafters coming out from cuba seeking freedom in the united states and fleeing the island. >> what was the government policy that said brothers to the rescue in motion? >> well, the government -- there was no really government policy that set them in motion. >> what happened that set this all in motion? >> well, it was all a result of cuba's failed government policies parole, and people were

leaving by any means that they could possibly come up with, and there was all the sudden a surge of rafters leaving cuba, and one day, one young rafter, 15 years old, the coast guard filminged the rescue and he died in the arms of the rescuer and he said we have to do something about this, and that's how it get started. >> when government doesn't provide oar it doesn't -- or it doesn't suffice with what they provide, the coast guard was extremely helpful to us, and without them, we couldn't do our job, but to find the rafters, that was our job, our community eats interest, and we implemented brothers to the rescue to provide for that need. >> how do you train the pilots? where did you find them, and what a sea gull one? >> it's my sign as a pilot.

i was seagull one making the radio calls to the other pilots when we flew to locate the rafters. the other pilots were pilots from 19 nationalities that joined us in the interest to help others. it's a matter of human solidarity. they came for brothers or to gain hours as pilots. but believe me, after you flew one or two missions there, you were hooked with the idea of saving lives, or you simply left. we're fortunate to have three brothers from argentina which were to mes original brothers to the rescue. they were larry, alberto -- they were the first pilots to organize the group and locate the other pilots like themselves where young men and were part of

a community and were pilots already, so we recruited pilots and recruit others to sit in the rear seats of the plane to carry members of the press, and there was no mission they didn't carry on it without a member of the press because we wanted to document what was happening there to, you know, make everything evident of what was happening in cuba and the reasons for leaving the island so no better image to say that than the image of a person floating in the middle of nowhere on an intertube. more eloquent than that is swimming. that's what we were doing. >> what about the clinton administration? did they not assist brothers to the rescue? >> well, brothers to the rescue never asked the u.s. government for help monetary or otherwise. of course, the u.s. coast guard was instrumental because they lifted the people out of the rafts and saved their lives, but

what happened at the exodus of 1994 was the policy changed and the wet foot dry foot came about and it was no longer viable to be rescuing, to be flying missions to rescue people who were going to be returned. >> explain briefly the wet foot, dry foot policy. >> well, it means if a cuban leaving cuba were to make it on a raft and touch dry land, he could be processed through immigration, but if he was intercepted at sea, they were returned, and then to cuba. >> i want to say the clinton administration was instrumental in terminating brothers to the rescue. in 1996, three of our airplanes, and i wasfullying one flew in a search and rescue mission, and mission cuba came after us and

shot two plane, and i survived in the third. that was known to the clinton administration and they were aware the attack from cuba was going to take place. they just documented the attack, and what they could have done which was giving us a word of or notice that this was impending to us, all they did was document, and not only that, they interrupted regular procedure over the census of the south florida which aircraft from homestead air base would take off to interpret cuba, and that was automatic standard procedure was interrupted, and it had to have been from the white house. they were told to stand down battle stations at the precise moments that brothers to the rescue needed those airplanes there to prevent the shootdown, so i am pointing my finger both at castro for the shootdown, the

natural enemy, and to the clinton administration for aided and abetted the shootdown of the brothers to the rescue planes. >> were you in international air space? >> we were in international air space, and no matter we would have been, there is no reason for a make airplane to go out there. they were civilian pilots, especially when they have been notified we had our search and rescue mission. we contacted them by radio. they know what we were doing there. we had been doing it for years. they chose to kill a tas, and the u.s. government having previous knowledge of them coming to us did nothing to prevent it. >> now, there was a flight over cuba; is that correct? >> we took flights over cuba probably three or four occasions in the past. one time the previous year, i flew over havana.

there was a demonstration going on there for the cuban people. that day, nothing, and we, of course, would have dropped leaflets from international air space to cuba. this may be hard to comprehend to somebody who is not a pilot, but when the air is in favorable conditions and you identify them, you can put something on the other side of cuba in international air space and it gets to the other side of the io land. >> how do you find this story? >> well, the story was all there. it's how it found me. a mutual friend enter deuced -- introduced me to jose, but he never felt anybody comfortable to write the satisfactory. i feel honored to write the

story, and i interviewed a a hundred people to tell their version of the story of being a brother or sister to the rescue. >> how many people were lost in the operation? >> well, you mean -- >> brothers to the rescue. >> well, four people were murdered when the planes were shot down. four men lost their lives. >> and what about the rafters, how many rafters do you estimate that you helped? >> well, by 1994, we had already rescued 4200 rafters running our missions, and then after that, we had been in the rescue of 30,000 more by assisting the coast guard when the 1994 exodus from cuba came about, but on our own efforts i'd say 4200 were saved by brothers to the rescue. >> were they returned to cuba?

>> those 4200 no, and the 30,000, most of them were not, and but then on the policy changed to the wet foot, dry foot policy, and the government started to send them back to cuba and renamed them my grants. they were refugees because conditions in cuba made them refugees and it was convenient that that stipulation was handled with sid man ticks as -- usual and migrants they came and migrants they went back which is sad because the united states were involved in many circumstances that made it necessary for those people to come back to the united states. on 1962 i think it was, 6 #, lyndon johnson the president

then, proclaimed the law of -- i'm forgetting it, but it made the cubans possible to stay here when they arrived in the united states, and the law had not. -- the law had not been repealed or anything, but the clinton administration made the few refuge yeses go back to the island. >> tell us your history. when were you born in cuba, how did you get to the states and what's your involvement in essentially fighting the government? >> i was born in cuba, and as a young man, i was recruited by the cia, if you may, because we were working at the time with the organization in cuba and the cia promised to us that they were going to give us all the

help we needed to change the government of cuba to a democratic government. those were only words and that ended up known as bay of pigs #. >> you were involved in that? >> yes, i was number 22, sent back to cuba as a radio operator to send back information. in other words, intelligence to a u.s. on what was going on before the invasion, and everything that they promised and said was going to be done on our behalf was simply betrayed. that included invasion. >> now, what did your family do in cuba prior to your coming over to the states? >> my father used to work for a company, sales, they were a u.s. company in cuba that, you know, were in the so sugar industry. it was a company, and fidel

castro coming to power was something that we didn't like at all. >> lily, tell us your background. >> well, i was also born in cuba and came to the united states when i was 4 years old. my father was involved in the counterrevolution, so my brothers and sisters, my older brothers and sisters were here already, and my mothermented me and my little sister out and put us on a plane by ourselves. >> is that the peter pan? >> no, before that. this was 1906, but it was so urgent, the need to get us out of there that she found that she had to do that and put us on a plane, and it's only a 90 minute flight. >> when's the next time you saw your mother? >> i think a few months after that. >> she managed to get over? >> yeah, they came back and forth, my father and her. >> how strong is the cuban american community now in south florida? i mean, is it still loyal to the

overthrow of fidel castro, or have jeep rations succeeded that it's less in that in >> perhaps it's less hardline in let's up vade them. perhaps that sentiment is that strong, although there are people who would like to invade physically, but i think there are more people open to speaking, opening relations, perhaps lifting the embargo. i know there's a lot of people who feel that way because they feel the only way to change it is from within, and you can't if they don't have any information from outside, and that's the most important thing is to get information from the rest of the world inside of cuba. >> the work of brothers to the rescue, and this is what made us a target of the cuban government to promote nonviolent approach to our confrontation with the

government and to reclaim human and civil rights of the cuban people. we started sending literature into the island, and slogans like i am the king, and that meant that every cuban had to assume speedometer for its -- responsibility for its circumstances, and if we want to change, we have to do it ourselves and not expect the u.s. to do for us, and all the messages like establishing our relationships to one another, like the one that says congress of brothers to break that communication in cuba that the government had put to them that they should call each other, and to us saying that it's a bad word. we wanted to call each other brothers, and in the mission of brothers to the rescue, i say the second objective after the saving of lives was the first

reaching communities out of the island with a message of we care about you. there is such thing as human solidarity. we are willing to risk our lives to save yours, and we will be there in the statings for you to assist you in the event that you decide to not take it anymore and come to the u.s. by whatever means. >> now, in the book, seagull one, you identify the god mother of brothers to the rescue. >> yes, i interviewed the congresswoman who is close friends with jose, and that's what she was. she was always there to take their needs to a higher place in the government, and that's kind of what god parents do. they know someone. they can get something for you that you probably can't get yourself, and she worked tire

lessly. >> now, fidel castro stopped down, and rajul is now leading. has policy changed? is there trade and travel? could you go back? >> i don't think i can go back. they would shoot me on sight. they missed last time, i'm not so sure they'd miss a second time. i don't think there's been any change, and i don't think fidel castro has seized to be the ultimate voice in the island. his brother has to consult with him, and he's just managing on a higher level the country for his brother, but nevertheless, it's for his brother. >> i would love to go back and have a book signing there. i would love to get the story inside of cuba. i think it would be great. >> some are going back and forth. you can fly from miami, can't you? >> yes, you can. i don't have family there, and i

would love to see the country where i was born because i don't remember anything and it's just a natural beauty, and i would love to see that, but i wouldn't feel comfortable at this time to go to cuba. >> we have been talking with lily and jose, seagull one, the mogs true story of brothers to the rescue. thank you for joining us here at the miemsz book fair -- miami book fair. >> thank you. >> we're talking with sheryl barns about her new book. can you tell us about this? >> i did this book as a result of the folks at the capitol calling me about a year before the capitol visitors center opened and said we need a children's book about the new beautiful place, and i said well, what character would you like me to do, and they said, a squirrel. i said a squirrel? anyway, i did research and came up with this cartoonish squirrel

named cappy tail. i got inspired in the area when i went there at the capitol, and i looked at all the beautiful murals, and there was a squirrel in the mural, and i really got my ideas from that little squirrel, and of course, the quarter which i have here, and i just wanted to have it be as detailed and as try to have it be as beautiful as possible. it took me about three years to get the book finished. >> and are you going to do a series of these as you did with the white house mouse? >> well, actually because of the way i've done this book, i've added more reference information, and specifics about the different rooms of the capitol, so i'm going to go back and have my white house book revised and improved to incorporate a lot more

information that parents and teachers can use. aye going to redo my books as i need to reprint them, and yes, there will be more. there will be the smithsonian, one about the declaration of independence and the constitution with liberty mouse. >> thank you very much for your time. >> thank you. >> you're watching booktv on c-span2, 48 hours of nonfiction books beginning every saturday at 8 a.m.. here's the lineup for tonight. ..

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