we wanted to call each other brothers, and in the mission of brothers to the rescue, i say the second object after the saving of lives was the first. in reaching the cuban communities with a message of we care about you. there is such thing as human solidarity. we are willing to risk our lives to save yours, and we will be there for you to assist you in the land that you decide to not take in anymore and come to the u.s. by whatever means. >> now, in the book, "seagull one," you identify the god mother. >> yes, i interviewed the congresswoman who is close friends with jose. she was there to take their needs to a higher place in the government. that's what god parents do.

they know someone to get something for you that you can't get yourself, and she worked tire leslie for brothers to the rescue. >> she got the coast guard to come to our call. >> fidel castro has stepped down, and has policy changed? is there more trade and travel between cuba? could you go back or lily, could you go back? >> i don't think i could go back heycuba. t ..site. they missed the first time, but i don't know that they would the second time. i don't think there's been changed or fidel castro as seized to be the ultimate voice on the io land and his brother consults with him and managing on a higher level the country for his brother, but nevertheless, it's still his brother. >> i would love to go back and have a book signing there.

i would love to get this story inside of cuba. it would be great. >> some are going back and forth. can you fly from miami? >> yes, you can. i don't have family there, and i would love the see the country where i was born because i don't remember anything and just the natural beauty there, i would love to see that, but i wouldn't feel comfortable at this time to go to cuba. >> we have been talking with l lily prellezo and jose, the mog true store --

>> it is great to be here on national television. [laughter] >> i'll try not to let the lens get to me. [laughter] >> it's not working. i was actually -- the diagonal glass of water. this is a joy to be here. you didn't know when you game you'd be part of a national tv studio audience. you each get $200. am i right? [laughter] >> that's right c-span is going to cover this for you. have a good time. maybe not. you got to take that up with c-span. it is spectacular to be in queens. i will tell you why. i grew up about three miles from

here in jackson heights. my -- i was born in his tour ya. i'm half greek and half german, hence my surname metaxas, and half greek due to my name. i was born in historia. we moved to jackson heights as soon as we could get out of historia. i did grow in up jackson heights. so it's a real joy to be here so close to where i grew up. i want to talk about how i came to write the book on bonhoeffer. then we'll have time for q & a. if you have hostile questions, take them outside. there's a camera. we can't do it here.

first i want to say how i came to write the book of bonhoeffer. i had never heard of him until 1988. i was raised in the greek orthodox church, which is around the corner here. went to the parochial school there. as is the case with many people raised in the church, you don't really -- you don't really take it to seriously. it's part of cultural experience; right. for me it was mostly about being greek and less about an orthodox christian. it was a delightful experience, wonderful community. it wasn't until after yale, if you are thinking about whatever faith you have, think about going to yale university. that's a bitter joke. but it's extremely secular. and if you have a serious bib call faith, that's not the place to nuture it.

i graduated yale not quite a nihilist, but i was looking for life. i don't recommend that combination, being a writer. my plan was to flounder for a few years. i was very good at that, actually. i put that aside, and i stopped floundering and i began to drift. very different. very different. then i drifted and floundered together. that's harder than you think. don't look down your nose at me. it was around 1988. i really came back to serious faith. and it was during this time the guy who was sharing with me about the bible and all of the things that i couldn't -- i was sure couldn't possibility be true. i was thinking there's a lot of intellectual arguments. this is fascinating. in the midst of the search, he hands me a copy of bonhoeffer's

famous book "the cost of discipleship." spectacular. if you read a book like that there are people of incredibly serious faith who are brilliant and write about it in a way i never thought possible. i was very moved. my friend said have you ever heard of bonhoeffer. i said no, he's a german because of his faith in jesus christ stood up to the nazis and for the jews and was killed in a concentration camp in 1945, three weeks before the end of the war. tragic, but i remember being amazed by the story. i was thinking how come i've never heard the story before. i was fascinated. a story a german because of the christian faith stands up to his jews and goes to a death in concentration camp. these are the kind of stories it would be nice to hear when they happened. this one definitely happened.

what an amazing story. i was further moved as i mentioned because i'm german. my mother is german. grew up during the horrible time. and i know it from that point of view. my grandfather was rehabitant german soldier. he would listen to the bbc with his ear literally pressed against the radio speaker. if you were caught listening to the bbc, you could get sent to a concentration. at age 31, he was sent away to fight in a war i know he didn't believe in. obviously, many germans didn't believe in. that's another story. he was killed at the age of 31. my mother was 9. so this is -- for mer -- for germans, many germans, certainly my family a huge tragedy and mystery. it was a mystery to try to fathom how it's possible. how did this happen? what does god say to how this happened?

what do we say as human beings? what is our understanding of what is humanity that we would allow something like this to happen. this problem, this question always captivated me. i even remember my mother when we were living here in jackson heights on 91st street and northern boulevard. she was friends with a german woman on our same floor. mrs. vinegarden. she was german and jewish. i remember my mother talking to her once. she showed me the tattoo on our arm. at age six or seven, i didn't know what that meant. of course, now i understand a little bit more. this is a part of many people's lived. try to understand it. when i heard the story of bonhoeffer i was captivated by it. i never thought i'd write a biography of him or anybody.

the way that came about was a few years ago, i was on cnn talking about -- i wrote a book "everything you want to know about god but were afraid to ask." not literally everything. but three volumes. it's in the three. i was just talking on cnn. the woman on cnn asked about what the page you mentioned william wilburfort. about the man that took the bible seriously and led the battle to the abolition of the slave trade in the british empire. i mention this on cnn. this mentions my writing a biography. they contacted me to write a man who stood up for the african-americans in the slave trade. i did write that book, of course. never thought i'd write a biography. i ended up writing the book. amazing grace and people were talking about it. everyone kept asking me after

this, okay, you wrote about wilburforce. who will you write about next? those people that said whom, they were right. yale major, if you used whom, i might give you a break on the book prices. i'm a big fan of the word whom. it doesn't cost anything. use it. nothing funny about that. who will you write about? about whom? if i were to write a second biography, there's only one person to my mind that is like william wilburforest. because of his faith he stood up for those who should not stand up for himself. obviously that led to my saying that i would write that book, and i did write the book. i didn't expect it to be 600 page long book. if somebody had told me it would be so long, i wouldn't have done it. that's why they didn't tell me.

it's such an incredible story. it's our story. it's the story of europe and the story of what happened. and in any case, that's how i came to write it. let me tell you a little bit about the life of bonhoeffer. he was born in 1906 into what can be described as an utterly spectacular family. when you read about his family, it's hard not to be jealous. his family on every level was ridiculously impressive. his father, carl, was the most famous psychiatrist in germany for the first half of the 20th century. so we're talking about an intellect on the level of dr. phil. [laughter] >> for example for example -- de brothers, perhaps. this guy was one of the leading scientists and doctors in europe in the first half of the 20th

century. hugely respected figure. actually when the reichstock turned down, they deputized him to examine and give a psychiatric evaluation to the dutch arsis in. he was the go-to guy. when the conspiracy against hitler, they were thinking we're going to get carl bonhoeffer to determine that hitler is insane. it's incredibly important figure in europe for all of those decades. of course, bonhoeffer is born into the family with the great father. but everyone in the family was amazing. bonhoeffer's mother, his brother and sisters, they married geniuses. his brother went into physics. that means you are going to split the atom with al letter

einstein. you can imagine at the dinner table trying to compete with that nonsense. so me splits the atom at age 23. i saw it in a museum, about the size of a softball. you know, it's a joke. thank you. thank you. in all seriousness. this was the guy at age 23 that split. bonhoeffer was the younger. it was the never never -- his fr was a professor of psychiatry at berlin university. all people in their neighborhood, social circled were academic super stars. they had many jewish friends. as you can imagine. so it was an extraordinary environment. his family, in particular was an extraordinary environment. because the father with this

great scientific mind was training the kids to think clearly, to think logically, to be rigorous in terms of logic. not to think sloppily, not to think along emotional lines, but to be disciplined and think logically. if you don't have something to say, don't say it. if you can't express it clearly, think twice. it must have been tough to open your mouth with all of the geniuses. but i think it stood bonhoeffer in good stead. he being the youngest and brilliant as any of them, really learned how to think clearly. as you'll see if you read the book, this made all of the difference going forward. bonhoeffer's brother was killed in the first war. that was a real tragedy in the family as you can imagine. at age 14, dietric announced

he's going to be a theologian. with a great scientist father, to announce you are going to be a theologian was not expected. it was shocking in some ways. i think they were maybe disappointed. it was a great musician. they thought he would go into music professionally. he went into law and became the head of the legal department. when he said he's going to go into theology, he said it was disappointing. he wouldn't have said it lightly. this was not some adolescent that he would repent and say i'd rather be a rock star or indian chief. he thought about it and said nothing about it for probably at least a year. excuse me. for at least a year before he mentioned it. you didn't say things lightly in the bonhoeffer family.

he makes the decision. what he meant when he said he wanted to be a theologian, he wished to distinguish himself academically. he wanted to be -- he wanted to be a big deal in the world of theology. the grandfather and grandmother were serious theologian, very famous. bonhoeffer makes the decision to do this. it's going to go to berlin university. we need to establish that berlin university in the 1920s was the premier place to study theology on the surface of the planet. if this was the place to go. you know, it's like you want to study science. you go to m.i.t. this was the place. not only does he want to go into theology, he wants to go to berlin to study theology. sure enough, he was a genius. and within months of his arriving there, the living legends on the theology faculty

will fighting over bonhoeffer who is 18 or 19, hoping him to get him to write the dissertation under them. that's my boy. he's intellect yulely independent. he does distinguish himself academically and rise quickly and impress everyone one would want to impress. he gets his doctorate at age 21. anybody here get a doctorate at age 21? surely in a crowd like this. [laughter] >> yeah, me either. i am currently working on getting my honorary doctorate, i should say. that's what this is all about. so -- but bonhoeffer, he was impressive. he gets his doctorate.

now the problem -- what becomes interesting, at age 21, he gets his doctorate. the question in theology, the question and dissertation and the larger question that he was trying to answer as a christian theologian in germany is what is the church? that was his question. in the course of answering, he minds he enjoys working in the church. not just theorizing or working on an academic sphere. he loved that. he enjoyed working in the church, teaching sunday school, preaching, not just teaching but preaching. it sort of captivated him. he decided he doesn't want to have only an academic career, but probably to get ordained. this presents the difficulty. in germany, you couldn't be ordained until age 25. when you are really precocious,

you are stuck. you have to wait. he decided to spend a year in barcelona, teaching -- i'm sorry assistant vicar. they loved to travel. they couldn't help themselves. they traveled everywhere. they were culturally very, very curious, and they knew every painting, every opera, they were as i said extremely impressive. they weren't just impressive on paper. you know, the kind of people that are impressive on paper and don't want to spend time with them. if you are that kind of person, raise your hand. i didn't think so. outside there were people. i say this they taught the children to be tolerant. you don't have to not disagree,

but be loving. you should care about other people's feelings. they taught this to their children. when i say that, they took it seriously. it was a part of the culture of the family and this plays out in the years to come as we'll see. so bonhoeffer at age 22, he goes to barcelona for a year. he loves to travel. his family comes to visit him. at age 24, he still can't yet get ordained. he's not old enough. he decided to go to new york city. we're coming to you live from new york city, and to spend a year, to spend a year in new york city. now what's he going to do? go to union theological seminary. he had already gotten his doctorate at age 21 from berlin. so to him, this is like, you know, going to a community college practically. this was not something -- he was not going there for reasons of academics in particular.

he was not disappointed. bonhoeffer gets, and i write about it in the book. he writes in his letters home, he's shocked. he find it to be very shallow. it's interesting inbear again say were theologically liberal. he respected the theology as the professor in berlin, he respected them as academics. he was able to learn a lot from them. now he gets to union, he feel that is, you know, they are sort of -- they think they are getting the right answers, when i ask them to show me their work, there's no work. they are cheating in a sense. he's gracious.

but he was not impressed at this point. what did happen there was outside of the boundaries of union for him or what happened while he was in new york. what happened was this, he met a student, fellow student. an african-american named frank fisher from alabama who invites him to come visit a baptist church in harlem. he being culturally curious, it's fascinating how culturally curious, he wants to know everything, experience different things. he goes to harlem one sunday in probably september of 1930 to visit the baptist church. what he experiences there simply staggers him. he had never seen anything like this before. he sees first of all the largest church in america. thousands of people in the church. he sees people worships god in a way that was vibrant. he'd never seen anything like

this in the religious and negative sense. lutheran circles traveling in germany. mainline protestant, he goes to the african-american church, a congregation that's alive, worshiping the living god. he called the negro spirituals. he went to get copies to take them back to germany. he did. he was fascinated by the level of faith. this was a congregation of suffering. african-americans in new york city in 1930, these are people who are not strangers to suffering. so somehow they were not in the church, they were taking this seriously. bonhoeffer was stunned by the experience and he vows to go

back every single sunday he's in new york city. which he does. and he goes back not only to worship, but to teach sunday school and get involved in the lives of the african-americans. he was captivated by the race question which he had not experienced yet in germany. so bonhoeffer gets involved in the lives of the african-american there and is so fascinated by it. but one thing that happens to him in the year he's in new york, which i can't mention, especially in an audience like this, in 1981, he wants to go to the the -- to go see how they do easter. you might not know this. i will tell you. easter is when the gentiles go to church. serious christians go every

sunday, but it's when the gentiles go on easter. he experienced this. he cannot go because he says it's so crowded you have to get tickets to go to easter service. being an exchange student from germany, he has no ticket. he does not -- he can't get into one of the big fancy white churches. what does he do on the only easter sunday he's in america? he goes to hear rabbi stephen weiss preaching. i believe it was carnegie hall. he would do this on the sunday morning. how interesting, how fascinating that this man who had no inkling whatever that in a few years his whole life would be intertwined with judaism on eastern sunday in new york city, he goes to hear rabbi stephen weiss. i was amazed by this. obviously, i write about it in the book. i got an e-mail from the grandson of stephen weiss, who's

also named stephen weiss. what a joy to meet him, get to know him, absolutely fascinating. in any case, bonhoeffer has an experience in the black church. i have to say that just imagine in 1930, the toe headed berlin academic going to harlem. you can tell he's amazing going up there. he's transformed by the experience. when he comes back to the germany in the summer of '31, everyone noticed he's different. what happened to him? he was academically and theologically impressive when he was younger. somehow he seems to take faith more seriously now. he's no longer just into it academically. somehow it seems to have gapped his heart in a way in the experience of african-americans in harlem, the experience with serious christianity has really touched him. and his friends notice this, that he's different. he's no longer merely speaking

about the bible as a text, but the living word of god. this is dramatic to say this in berlin university in 1931 and 1932. he was very bold. he was a genius, he was able to get away with it, i think. he really believed it. he was core -- courageous. he tells his students they would go on the retreats. they would tell them to go off and spend time and meditate on the scripture. this is very dramatic from what you would find in the theological circles. he had been changed by his experience in the african-american church. bonhoeffer also was -- because he was taking god more seriously, he's now beginning to see what's happening politically in germany. he knows -- i go into this in

detail in the book. he somehow seems to know before anyone else knows what the nazis mean to germany. he seems to be able to smell that this is directly opposed to germany as a nation, but more importantly, to the church in germany. if you take god seriously, if you are not just a gentile who goes to church, but if you actually take this seriously, you are going to have big problems. but most people were as we know extremely badly fooled. bonhoeffer was not. he beginning to seek out from the lecture. he begins to teach theology and say things to the christian audience, if you are a christian in germany, you have only one savior. that's jesus christ. when he says this, it's obvious what he's saying. hitler is not the savior. so many germans were biblically i guess or -- ignorant, they

didn't have a sense that satanic. many people were swept along by this. bonhoeffer saw what was happening. he understand it to be dangerous many years before it seems that anybody did. it's fascinating. i think part of it is the scientific training by his father. not swept up in emotion and see what someone is saying and hold it up against the truth and be able to solve for x, so to speak. he seeing this and beginning to speak out publicly. when hitler becomes the chancellor in 1933, three or two days later, i can't remember, it's in the book. bonhoeffer goes on the radio and gives a speech in which he dissects the idea of the principal. i deliver -- i mean i devote a chapter in the book to this idea of the pure principal. if you are an principal, it is an extremely popular idea in

germany. it means leader. he wrote the idea of the principal all the way in. and wrote it off a cliff 12 years later, carrying europe will him. three days after he becomes chancellor, he gives a speech as a principal as a snake swallowing his own tail. he says that true leadership must come from god. in other words, that if you are deputized, you have the authority to lead, it's because you are yourself submitted it a higher authority. otherwise, you have no authority. bonhoeffer talks about this. this was a stick in the eye of the nazis. two or three days after hitler becomes chancellor to dissect the idea on which they had ridden into power. he dissects the idea, and he's bold about it. he's rather bold, not in a merely way. he's rather bold in his

criticism of the nazis. if you know the history, i go into this in the book, i myself was not familiar with this. fascinated learn to about it. how quickly the nazis took over every piece of society. what we in america don't really know often is how dramatic the idea of the separation of church and state is. germany had no history of the separation of the church and state. if you became the head of the state, and you are adolf hitler, it's within the boundaries of what you can do to take over the church. the church and state were wedded together. hitler does this happily and beginning to intervene in every part of the society, including the church. the state paid the pastors salaries because of the official state church. they began to know take over and try to infiltrate the theology of the christian church. they began to nazify, the

doctrines of the christian church. very few people like bonhoeffer understood. he's a leading critic of what is happening to the german church. it becomes most pointed a few months into 1933 when the nazis start making their laws and saying if you have jewish blood, you cannot serve in the government post. this now extends to the church. because if you are a pastor who has jewish blood, your father is jewish, or your grandfather or whole family is jewish but you've converted to christianities one or two or three generations, the nazis aren't interested in what you believe, they are interested in your blood. because they see everything through a lens. bonhoeffer's best friend was ethnically jewish, but not only a member of the lutheran church, but ordained alongside as a

lutheran minister. you cannot be a member of the state church if you have ethnically you are jewish. we don't care what's in your mind. we only care what's in your veins. bonhoeffer is probably the number one person who sees what this means, and he writes an essay about this, called the church and the jewish question. very big deal. very pioneering basically. it's easy for us with 20/20 hindsight to forget how badly people can be fooled. in the 1920s in america, american white christians were fooled by thinking the blacks should have a separate church. we weren't where we are in 2010 on the issue. bonhoeffer looks at this and with a mind in the scientific rigger and logic, he goes through and says, no, you cannot divide the church among racial lines. if the church is anything, it is the place where jew and gentile

stand together. if the church has any meaning, that's what it is. it's not a place to look at things racially. so bonhoeffer at this point is taking the lead in all -- [cell phone ringing] >> if that's my wife, i'm not here. bonhoeffer gets involved in [inaudible] called the struggle for the church. they were badly fooled by the nazis. anybody that says that hitler was a christian. he was not a christian, he was a gentile. there's a difference. which we have established, okay. hitler was politically so brilliant he would never say he's against the church. he didn't have the kind of power that saddam hussein had a few years ago. he had to play the political game to get more and more power. he understand that he had to play the political game and talk a good came when it came to the church and always pretend to be on the side of the church and morality against degenerates

speaking along those lines. yes, i don't agree with everything that he says. he's basically on the right path. nobody, of course, thought that he would be there for 12 years. everybody thought we'll use him for a while. he's going to be one term fewer -- ever heard that term? i made it up. nobody took him seriously. what he's trying to do is fundamentally antithetical to the german church. as a pastor, i have to speak about against this. he's one the leading speaking out against it. he became known as the barrman declaration with the document that a few pastors wrote. quite a few pastors wrote in which they finally said we are stepping away from the german state church. the german state church has become a post state. it is no longer the lutheran evangelical church. we are pushing away.

they wrote the document. very brave. you have to give them credit. the german institution wrote it. you have many german pastors identified with this document and standing away from the nazified reich church. it was a brave moment. i think bonhoeffer felt that really even this was not enough. even the people on the good side and members of the church, there were thousands of the pastors who stood up bravely and i write about that in the boom. i think we need to remember them. he realized that they are not taking hitler quite seriously enough. they don't understand that we don't fight hard. if we don't -- in a sense take this extremely seriously immediately, the nazis are becoming more and more powerful. bonhoeffer gets frustrated. they never seem to think the nazis were going to do what they were going to do and what we in

hindsight know they did. bonhoeffer in his frustration, seeing that even his friends don't get it. he goes to london for a year and a half to pastor a german speaking congregation in london. he's involved, he's on the phone all the time. he was one of those people if he was alive, three blackberries and absolutely collected constantly to what's going on in berlin, talking to his mother and others getting the latest on how the church is being taken over by the nazis. it's extraordinary. so bonhoeffer comes back to germany. in 1935, the confessing church, the good guys, deputize him to lead a seminary. train pastors. you have the nazified state church. their seminaries are not worth going to. you don't want to go to that. the confessing church has to

have their own seminaries. they deputize bonhoeffer to lead. and this i see as the -- in some ways the golden error. he's able to put into practice what he believes is true christianity. to teach the young men who wish to be pastors. what does it really mean to be christian? it doesn't mean go through the motions. you have to standard up against evil. courageous and lay down his life. you have to know how to pray, have to have a relationship with god. this is not just a fussy academic theology. you don't have to only exit the scripture, you have to live it and obey it. if god said something, you have to determine if god is saying this. you have to do it, and if you say you believe it, but you don't do it, you have to believe it. you cannot call yourself a christian, all you are willing to live it. he's teaching this to the

seminarians. the nazis became more and more powerful and shut them down. he takes the seminary training underground. comes the floating scheme. he doesn't know where. it's here, there, it's at a parish house. you know, he was very tricky. bonhoeffer was very deceptive in a good way if you understand what i mean. he knew to lie to the gay top poa, that's not a lie. that's not god's way of saying to every christian, are you hiding a jew in the basement? yes. the good christian says no. what are you talking about? we have no basement. no, you are supposed to be doing -- you are supposed to be obeying god in a more fundamental way. bonhoeffer understood to deceive is not to disobey god, to serve god.

it plays into the theology. maybe i can go into this in the q ona. they catch up. his possibility to serve god become narrower and narrower, and more and more difficult because the nazis are becoming more and more powerful. they forbid him a some point for speaking publicly. because they know where he's coming from. finally, they forbid him from publishing. he had the temerity, or i can say here [foreign phrase] to public the prayer book of the bible which is about the psalms. you have to understand the climate. it's almost comical. but the nazified state church was trying to create the pseudochristianity that was void of judaism. good luck with that project. impossible. insane. but they were trying to do it. this was what bonhoeffer was up

against. they were trying to create something which they call christianity. they want to create the religion in which they are wiping out any vestage of judaism. well, you are going to have some problems with that. jesus was jewish if i can say. his mother jewish. every one of the apostles. how can you do this? the nazis were trying to create something that was neopagan thing. it was a nazi religion. they knew if they continued to call it christianity, they can fool people who are ignorant. all of the german gentiles that go to church but don't know anything about the faith. bonhoeffer has the temerity to write a book on the psalms at a time when the nazi reich church was saying anything. to me, it's almost comical they were going this far. bonhoeffer does this. he's forbidden from publishing. what's he going to do?

the nazis become more and more powerful. his options widdled down next to nothing. bonhoeffer in 1938 sees that war is coming. he was not a pacifist, but he wouldn't pick up a rifle to fight in hitler's war. he would never do that. what was he going to do? he decided to cut to the chase to go back to new york. to come back to new york. he comes back in 1939 with the idea that he is going to maybe teach at union or do something to get away from the madness that's happening in germany so that he'll be preserved to teach another day and lead another day. he gets on the ship in june of 1939. he comes to new york, but already he's praying constantly, asking god to lead him. he was one of the people that he was honest enough to say there's no right answer. i have to know -- god has to guide me. because i know what to do. this is becoming madness.

what do i do? he's praying very earnestly. i devote a whole charity in the back. which the period has never been covered before. what he's thinking, his journals and what he's praying, god, you have to show me what to do. he's reading the scripture versuses and say is he speaking to me. it's fascinating how he went through the thought process. no sooner does he get off of the boat in the harbor and he knows he's made a mistake. he cannot leave germany and abandon his people in the time of suffering. he spends time talking to people in new york, saying maybe i can only stay a year, eight months, five months with before you know it he's decided that i want to go back. he spends 26 days in new york city. it's almost funny. he's like a ghost. he feels so -- it's so clear his heart and soul were in germany. he didn't know what he was going

back to. that much he knew. he didn't know the specifics of what he was going back to. he felt that if god calls me to go, i will go. that's what i do. i obey god. so he goes back, when he arrived in berlin, everyone is shocked. they pulled strings to get him out of there. what in the world are you doing here now? he says simply, i made a mistake. i made a mistake. now what he does specifically and this is where it gets very fascinating and i'll close, bonhoeffer gets involved in the conspiracy to assassinate hitler. the way he finds himself in the conspiracy is first of all his family were leading anti-nazis from the beginning. as soon as hitler was in power, the whole family knew who hitler was, he was evil, they were not on board. bonhoeffer's brother-in-law was a member of german military intelligence. now i have to say german military intelligence was at the

time the center of the conspiracy against adolf hitler. bonhoeffer's brother-in-law is the leader. he's one of the lead conspirators. he will be involved in conversations in the conspiracy in the years leading up to 1939. i mean he was friends with these people. he knew them. he was as a theologian and pastor giving them moral support in the conspiracy. that was not an easy thing for germans. very difficult. bonhoeffer knew this was what god was saying and against the nazis and conspiracy. now he comes back in 1939, he decided to officially become a member of the conspiracy. and this is fascinating. he decided to go from confession to conspiracy. there's a chapter in the book called from confession to conspiracy. in other words, the nazis had no problem with you if you say i'm a christian and this is what i believe.

that's nice. thank you very much. you are no threat to me. you are no threat to me. but if you actually act on those beliefs, now you are a threat. and bonhoeffer says now is a time for me to boldly act. i say that the god of the bible is real. jesus is god. now am i going to obey him when my life is at stake or do the convenient thing? i can tell you bonhoeffer was courageous. he gets involved with the conspiracy. we know in germany, 1939, bonhoeffer has to do something for the third reich if he doesn't want to get sent to the concentration camp or get killed. yes, i'm going to work for the german military intelligence under my brother-in-law. he's going to further the aims of the thursday reich. we know what he's actually doing, he's now a member of the conspiracy. i go into this again in detail

in the book. but it was a vast conspiracy. and bonhoeffer role was to travel around europe and make contact with members of the allied governments most importantly with the churchill government, anthony eden, and to try to let them know, there are germans inside germany who are involved in this plot to kill hitler. so this is what bonhoeffer's main role is. he continues to write. write the "ethics" during the time. in 1943 he becomes engaged. in the book for the first time i tell the story of the love affair. for him he was late in life. he's 36. he never thought he would get married. the times were difficult. i'm going to serve god. it's not going to be part of my life. he meets the woman. they fall in love. i tell that through the letters.

i should say that the previous big biography on bonhoeffer the only one published by 1967. extraordinary book. but he didn't feel the freedom to write about the love affair. they have not been published. i have the joy of being the first one to tell the story. there were a number of things that haven't come out until recently. this is to me a beautiful story. he gets engaged, but no sooner than he gets engaged, he's arrested. they finally catch up with him and put him in military prison. why? not because of the involvement of the conspiracy to kill adolf hitler, they said there was something wrong with the algorithm. he was involved in [foreign phrase] which is operation 7. a plot to get 7 german jews out of germany into neutral

switzerland. he got very involved. it was difficult actually. they spent a lot of time trying to do this. and eventually they catch him, arrest him, and bonhoeffer thought he would beat the wrath. he's able to fool the prosecutor, case will come to trial, and get out. he believed if that doesn't happen, the conspirators will kill hitler and i will get out. he feint hopeful that he was going to be in a prison for a while, but not until death. do you know the story valkerie, in hitler's military headquarters, people are killed. hitler is not among them. hitler survives. from this point on, the

conspiracy is exposed for the first time ever. it's been bubbling along for years and years. they made a number of attempts about him. it's fascinating how many attempts they were, how it failed, how complicated it was. this one is the last one. suddenly, hitler realized there are all of the people in the conspiracy. so thousands are arrested, tortured, names come up under torture. one the names is bonhoeffer, he's transported to the prison in berlin, and from here on in, it's safe to say his days are numbered. we don't know if the war is going to end, if the nazis are going to use him as a bargaining chip with the allies. we know things are winding down. he probably won't survive. and, in fact, he doesn't. on hitler's expressed ordered, april 9th, 1945, three weeks before the end of the war, bonhoeffer is hanged by the nazis at the concentration camp

at dawn. and it's an extraordinary thing that hitler, this is pure revenge on hitler's part, you know, he didn't want any -- especially the pastors. hitler despised christian pastors. i wrote -- i write all about the nazis and how they despised the serious christians in the book. we need to know the facts. he had bonhoeffer. his body was thrown on to the pile of corporations. it was broke broken. and he was burned in this fashion. he would have considered it the highest honor to die with the other victims of the third reich and to be disposed of and identified with him. he would have been thought it was an honor. in 1943, he gave a sermon on death. in 1943, he talks about death in his sermon. he says that apart from god,

death is a horrible thing. but anybody who has actually come to know god personally, and, of course, he's preaching to christians and saying this is the whole point of your faith. not just to show up in church, be a nice person, but to know that god is real, he loves you, he wants you to have a relationship. bonhoeffer is preaching this. if anyone has ever glimpsed the kingdom of god, from that moment, they are home sick to be with him. if you've ever actually experienced this reality. that's what it is to have faith. and so bonhoeffer believes this and preaches this with vigor in 1933. believe me in 1945, he believed it all the more strongly. anybody that had an idea that he went to his death ringing his hands wishing he could squirm out, i don't think the facts lead us there. he thought he was serving god. there's no way to live or die to know you are serving god.

you are doing the right thing. bonhoeffer's father wrote a letter to the colleagues. he sayses we've lost four. two sons and two sons-in-law. we are sad, but proud. my children lived in the way i thought them to live. during the evil times, they did the right thing. they went out of this world with their heads up, the peace and joy of god. that's bonhoeffer's message. we all need to hear it. life is hard. he lived it. that's why he's my greatest inspiration. i hope he'll be yours as well. let's stop there. we have a few minutes for q and a, i think. [applause] >> thank you. wait for the microphone if you have a question. >> if you have a question we can bring it -- >> i love multiple choice or true and false better. >> was there any connection to

the catholic in maria? i mean it was a another church. >> well, it's fascinating to me, again, because i went into this really not knowing much about the history. i learned so much. one the things that i learned was that it seems to me that most of the people involved in the conspiracy against hitler were serious christians; right? many of them catholics. bonhoeffer once he got involved in the conspiracy to kill hitler, he was working with catholics. i wrote about them a little bit in the book. joseph mueller and a number of others. there's no question that they stood together against the nazis. the conspiracy was a rather wide conspiracy. there were a number of pieces to it. as far as i can tell, most of them were serious christians. in fact, when they went up against the people's court to sort of run els, the evil man with the show trial, a number of them who had been tortured and know they will go to the death,

they said, you know, -- i quote this in the book. i don't remember. but they basically did this because this was the right thing to do before god. then to stick a stick in the eye of the nazis, they said we did this for the jews. wow. for them to say this in the people's court, in this incredible surrounding. they had seen this is the end of my life. i'm going to say and speak the truth. so in any case. >> 60 years, and the germans come in two days later. does that make two regimes? i was in auschwitz for seven months. and i had a lot of germans -- a lot of germans in the concentration camp.

and auschwitz, a lot of germans, and it was quite a lot. >> people don't know that. and thank you for saying that. and it's an honor to speak here with you in the audience. to learn how complex the situation is. this is a thing. to understand that how many germans. they were sent to the concentration camps if they did. i had no idea of the depths. thank you for sharing your personal experience. >> you talk about bonhoeffer's devotional life. could you talk about that as far as the readings? you mention how he -- the specific psalms that he had for the day was that how did he

systemize that? what did it look like? >> i assume that everyone listening will read the book. actually, i don't care if you read the book. just buy the book. i don't care if you read it. the fact is that -- bonhoeffer that i discovered in my research was somewhat different than the bonhoeffer i had heard about. what i mean was that he was an extremely devote christian. he wasn't just a christian, or brave in a general way. he drew his strength from god and studied the scriptures every morning. he was disciplined and would read the scriptures, not just as text as the rule book this is how to behave. this is god speaking to me personally. he did this every morning.

he was grounded. it gave him courage. he was very serious about reading the scripture. he was very serious. i want to be brave. bonhoeffr is presents a the christian cool guy. he was sexually pure, he was somebody that he took god very seriously. that's where his courage came from. it's important to understand that. i think it's an inspiration to me and anybody to realize this guy every morning he would read the scriptures and every morning he would pray. when he led the seminary, they had all kinds of times of prayers together, and so on and so forth. he didn't take it lightly. whatever the opposite of lightly is. it was profound. the question in the back. you have to wait for the microphone.

the whole world is going to hear what you have to say. >> i was wondering if you were able to interview from that period or any of the deuces -- descendants of the bonhoeffer family? >> yes. the answer is yes. moving on. no, i spoke with his niece one afternoon in the spring of 2008. she's a figure in the book. i write about her in the book. she's the niece. he lived through it. she drove with -- bonhoeffer tries to escape. he could have been if he wanted to. i talk about that in the book as well. she was involved in all of this. she married bonhoeffer's best friend, the father of all studies.

we had a wonderful afternoon with her. also in a german nursing home in hamburg, we visited with the elder sister of his fiance. he visited and spent the afternoon with her. this woman heard bonhoeffer preach in 1937. it was so amazing to me to be breathing the same air with the woman for a few hours and break bread with someone. it was a great privilege. i have martin to thank for that. he's the man who directed the great documentary on bonhoeffer. he gave me their contact information and made it possible for me to meet the delightful women in germany two years ago. thank you for asking that.

: >> perhaps this nature were false question lurking out there someplace. i'll answer this question here and then in the back. >> did he have any actual interaction with jews on the way

to the concentration camps, as they were being rounded up, as they were being persecuted in the street? >> i'm not sure. i didn't see any evidence of that in the way that you're putting a. but bonhoeffer, this is an important thing to say. because his family was such a big deal, date connections in high places and they knew what was going on, we are average german never would've had access to this information. bonhoeffer's brother-in-law of coors was a leading figure in the ministry of justice and madrona turbine military intelligence. so the whole bonhoeffer family news to him in many other other friends of theirs, but they knew what was going on. both pushed bonhoeffer for the carucci had. he knew before almost before anybody else what was coming and what was happening. and he would hear things your average german wouldn't care. why? the leadership never wanted them

to hear it because if they euratom know what's going on. so we know some germans knew something, things didn't know anything. basically the bonhoeffer family did more than anybody. and they were very involved in this. i didn't say this, but bonhoeffer's twin sister tribune, to me was closer to anybody in the world for most of his last commission made a jewish man and they had to flee germany to england in 1937. this is very personal for bonhoeffer. his brother-in-law, best friend come in many people in his life were jewish. and so, his experience in this on a personal level and i think that added battleship force him to think more clearly about what god is telling me to do. he couldn't just dismiss it cavalierly. he had to think, what is god calling me to do? make many people were forced to think through the way he would've come at a flippant to god that thou shalt not kill so

i shouldn't go. bonhoeffer said no, i'd shalt not murder. it doesn't mean that in some circumstances to protect the innocent you don't use a weapon. i mean, it becomes very difficult. what i love about bonhoeffer is the force does not easy answers, but to really think through what is god really saying here? not to say and what do i want god to save. bonhoeffer had to answer this question. he said he can't allow these numbers to get their hamster to when i am a pious pastor market involved. theoretically that's hypocrisy. i have to really wrestle with this. i think the fact you a personal connection forced him to wrestle with it. but we are the benefactors of this rigorous thinking and i think my greatest hope would be people would read my book and it will lead them to read bonhoeffer because he really shows us with real faith is in a

way oftentimes we don't see it. we often see what bonhoeffer describes as cheap rates. but it has no meaning. it becomes meaningless. he forces us to think it through. and they think he is to me a great example of what does it mean to let such your faith in eagle circumstances quite to me he was the model for a two force us to think about what is the real thing? what is the real thing with a? there was a question. the one in lavender. or lilac, excuse me. i apologize. i want happen again. >> this is not a question but a comment. you are talking about hitler's hatred of the clergy. i have an uncle who was politically active in germany but the rest of 1933. in a concentration camp. to remember pastors in the

concentration camp. and he said at the time that -- [inaudible] >> say it again. >> were treated worse than the jews. >> you never hear this. thank you for sameness. i have to say this is a lesson to me to read about this. often we get a very cartoonish version of history and it's not a cartoon. it's very -- there's a lot of great, and a lot of complication and it's very easy for us in 2020 hindsight to say this is what happened, but to live through that. obviously with much more complicated. and i have heard that. no bonhoeffer, many of the men and seminary -- if you remember the confessing church viewer march by the sidelines. if you're in the war, they would pitch in the front lines literally because they need a kilt. sort of like, what was the same? david and sheba's husband, you

know, put them on the front lines. they were literally marked for death, but very interesting and educational. yes, sir. we need a microphone. >> first of all, excellent lecture. it really was just wonderful. [applause] faq to do my biography now. you know, i'm a student of the holocaust in the ghetto, the uprising. it's still so hard. the resistance, the bravery. can you say these people, their top by their mother, their father and the things that were done it so hard to get through this to read about stroup and the liquidation of the ghetto. it's just heartbreaking to me.

for the marches, afterwards in the war is almost over. it seems the world of the historians was probably in my opinion the worst of genghis khan, was the most evil. and sometimes i wonder if it was a hard time for having us. we have forgotten this. it's gotten in the way a little bit for religion. but again, take the baby, but then i have to take it and smashed the brain and everything. very, very hard to get through all this stuff. >> this is to me what is so fascinating. anybody who doesn't believe in god or doesn't believe in good or evil, who's to say what he though quite faulty with people. smashing the baby's brains against the lawless evil. if you can't say that evil. to be intellectually honest can't say it's evil because the category of evil doesn't exist. as a christian, my theology, the biblical theology is really

broken world. this world is not the way it's supposed to be. there is evil in this world, right? and god is working against the evil. he does not condone the evil obviously. it's a big mystery. but the point is the world is broken and all you need to do is look at the holocaust. and if you don't understand that human beings are capable of these kinds of things, study this. and you'll see anybody with a cavalier attitude towards it, you know, most things happen for a reason. people see these incredibly sloppy things. all things work out in again. yet tell that to the jews and i'll switch twisting his family murdered. you have to have a more complex way of life. if your not forced to look at these things come even sloppily say about the visit to good we just got here by accident. i would say is a person of faith, i don't know how you can justify that.

if we just all arrived by accident and there's no god and no meaning, you cannot condemn the mounties for this. it has no meaning. you cannot call it evil because there's no such thing as evil. these are important questions and i think we don't deal with them very well in our current culture. we don't have these conversations on tv. you have to deal with this. if life has no meaning in real life i accident, if we direct the process coming into the world, our lives are meaningless and we can't condemn anything. it's all just part of evolution and the sloppy sense, but things have been. i will see how a human being can be content with that worldview. to me, not the focus like a laser, that this is what human beings do. tommy what do you make of this? that's the question. to see a person might bonhoeffer, was a shining light of goodness in the midst of this evil, it gives you hope, gives me hope it helps me make sense of it.

otherwise i would want to kill myself. it's just so disturbing. and on that happy note, i think we'll have to end. [applause] >> eric metaxas is the author of several books, including amazing grace: william wilberforce and the campaign to end slavery. for more information visit his website, eric metaxas.com. >> here are the top 10 best-selling conservative books from human events.com:

>> "made for goodness" is the name of the boat. well-known author, desmond "bonhoeffer" along with his daughter mpho tutu lussier at the national press club alternate. ms. tutu, what is this book about? >> i think most of what this

book is about is the essential equality of human beings is that we are good. our essential quality is our goodness. our behavior does not always bear out that essential quality, that it is my belief in my destiny that are essential quality is goodness and everything else is in operation. and we really stories from both our lives, both of us are clergy with the priests and pastors. my father famously shared the truth and reconciliation commission has been in all kinds of ways of grief and horror. i have seen the same times of grief and horror, but on a more domestic scale and my rule is the pastor. so i have a very clear sense of the pain that we can inflict on one another as human beings, but i