come to the l.a. rams football practice. here is a politician who knows what is important. then he asked me to be sure of your virginians for reagan. that is what got me involved in politics. it .. >> next, dan porat presents his research on an iconic photograph of anonymous boy this warsaw ghetto taken in the spring of

1943. he discusses his book at the illinois holocaust museum and education center. this program is about 50 minutes. >> thank you very much for your welcoming words, and it's a pleasure to be here. thank you all for coming in this cold evening, chicago windy city. let me first thank the jewish federation of chicago and especially michael for arranging and supporting my coming here the chicago. it has been a pleasure being here, and i thank you for that. i would also like to thank the uic jewish studies program and especially my friends and ceilings, robert johnston and sam fleishhacker for their warm welcome. it has been a true wonderful experience being here. and finally, let me thank the

illinois holocaust museum and be education center and especially rick for allowing me to come here and present my work to you. this is my first time presenting this work, and it's an exciting moment for me to be able to do this, and i couldn't find a better place than here. so i will be speaking tonight with you about the very famous photograph of the little boy raising his hands in the warsaw ghetto. this photo which for many of us represents the holocaust, a photo which encapsulates within it the horror of that terrible time, the terror on the face of the little boy and the s is, man standing -- ss man standing in the background with his rifle possibly aimed at the little boy. this is, of course, the icon of the holocaust which many of us are familiar with and know.

it's a very famous photograph, and as is well known, it was published -- it was first, it was taken in warsaw ghetto during the uprising in the spring of 1943 and was incorporated within an album made by the notorious ss general, stroop, an album which he prepared on the occasion of his victory over the jews in warsaw. now, over the past five years that i have been investigating and researching the background, the story behind this photograph, for friends and colleagues would approach me and ask me, dan, how did you come up with this topic, the idea of investigating a story behind one photograph? and, frankly, they usually were disappointed with my answer. my answer was that it was no

inspiration, no revelation, it was mere coincidence. i, basically, stumbled upon this topic, and it took, basically, the moment when this photograph became for me a topic began in the winter of 2001 in jerusalem. i was conducting a research project on the way israeli teenagers perceive the holocaust, about their knowledge of the holocaust. and in that winter i was in the home of one teenager, her name shelley, a 16-year-old, and i can vividly remember that moment when we were talking about the horrors of the holocaust, and she was describing the experience of her family, much of it murdered during this event. her father was sitting by her. he literally was born on the

rubble of the warsaw ghetto, and as she was talking, i pulled out this photo, and i placed it on the table. what happened next was extremely surprising. she smiled, and she began to giggle. and then she pointed at the little boy, and she said, you know, he's a relative of mine. he lives in new york. and the punchline was, do you want his phone number? [laughter] you can imagine my taste at that moment. face at that moment. now, i would hear that story time and time again in the years that would come. i heard it from other students, i heard it from an official guide, i heard it from professors in the university, i heard it from history professors. but unfortunately, i can say very clearly that today i know

of at least seven different identities of the little boy, none of which -- again, unfortunately -- are accurate. the boy in my mind, and i'm very strong in this opinion, was either shot minutes after this photo was taken or was gassed a couple of days later in tribleng ca. but looking at this photograph, a different question came up, a question that in my mind is even more significant than the question of the identity of the little boy. and this question was the question of how was this photograph taken in the first place? how was this photograph in which most of us, most human beings see the cruelty, the repeated cruelty i should say of man towards man, how could this photograph be incorporated in a

victory album? how could someone take pride in this photograph, see it as an expression of beauty, an expression that he wants to boast about? how could this be a photograph included in a victory album? and that was the basic question that would lead my research in years to come and is at the core of my book. and to answer that question i turned to five biographies which intersect in the photo of the little boy. the first of them is a, an ss man, soldier. the ss man who stands behind the little boy. his name is joseph blosche. the second is a low-ranking ss officer, administrative officer, franz konrad, who in all

probability was the one who took the photograph. and the third is the notorious jorgen stroop p who was the one who incorporated the photo this his victory album and was the commander of the previous two. blosche was his personal bodyguard and can be seen in several of the photos from that period, and konrad was on his staff and went with him wherever he went this ghetto. in the ghetto. now, in contra distinction, two jewish lives also intersect in this photo. the first of them being that of risks traskovic. riska was in the ghetto during the revolt and reports photos being taken. and there is a good chance that she saw this group of ss men

taking photos. and finally, the story of dr. nussbaum be, a doctor from new york who claims he is the little boy in the photo, and he's the one that shelley mentioned. and, in fact, while he's not factually the little boy in the photo, i argue that the photo totally represents his horrific experience. now, the first person i would like to speak about is jesef blosche, the soldier standing behind the little boy with the rifle in his hand. he was born in 1912, and helied in a -- he lived in a very authoritative family. his father, basically, for the first 27 years of his life his father was the one who determined everything he did. he was the one who pulled him out of school at the age of 14

as was customary at the time. he was the one who determined that blosche would become a waiter, would go to learn to become a waiter so he could work in the family inn. he was the one who determined the daily schedule of blosche, whether he would work in the inn or possibly go to work in the fields or take care of the family livestock. he was the one, the father, who determined that blosche's elder brother would be removed from his will because he was not as subordinate and did not follow the father's order and would instead put blosche as his heir. it was in the family inn that blosche was exposed to much of the national socialist ideology that came about in this time. the father arranged there for party, the nazi party assemblies

and also they would hear their radio transmits from germany calling for the unification of the land with the fatherland of germany. the there that -- it was there that he was also exposed to newspapers coming in from germany, and he himself was a member of a nazi youth movement earning a gold medal for his participation. and it was only at the age of 27 for the first time that blosche moves away from his childhood scenery and goes out of that vicinity up to be with trained by the ss. and in, that is in december of 1939 be. two years later in 1941 he takes part in his first mass execution. and that mass execution is very

clearly recorded in his memory. unlike the 20 or more mass executions in which he would take part and hundreds of individual killings, he would not remember almost any one of those, but this first one was marked in his mind. he could remember the 10 or 12 soviet citizens which were walked up the forest. he remembered the bomb craters which served as the death pits. he remembered that one of of these men, these soviets, was not shot well x they had to -- and they had to use what was sort of called a mercy shot to finish his execution. this was a transforhaitian for blosche. he was not a killer in his initial setting. he basically, this was the moment where he shifted from treating humans as human z to

a -- humans to an understanding from his point of view that a command is a command, and it is superior to human life. and in the summer of 1942, blosche is transfer today the warsaw ghetto. and there he becomes much more ingrained in this capacity of a killer. when in the ghetto, one of his common activities was when his commander would order him, go out and make a racket, he would get on a rickshaw and ride down the ghetto streets. and as he's riding, the jews are dispersing because they know what is coming next. blosche would shoot his favorite prey which were pregnant women and children. and the jews report about this

rickshaw coming down the streets, and the killing that came, and they do not know the name of these killers. they don't know the name of the ss people, so they nickname him, appropriately, frankenstein. and what was most amazing for me when i was reading the documents of his interrogation in berlin was one story which came up twice or three times in his reporting. it was an incident that came after the ghetto was destructed. the jewish police was called in to the prison within the ghetto, and those jews who took part in sifting the nazis and deporting the jews were lined up, and it was very clear what was going to happen next.

blosche takes his jewish policeman and walks him over to the courtyard on the other side of the streets. and as he walks over there, the policeman who knows what's coming swerves and punches him in the face and runs for his life. he is immediately shot dead. but the important point comes now which is blosche falls back, and his commander, carl brunt, runs to him, yanks away his rifle and scolds him, sends him back to the prison and orders him not to take part in this mass execution. blosche remembers the story 24 years later and repeats it two or three times. and i was wondering what was so significant for him in this story. and, basically, my interpretation is that for the

first time he is not fulfilling the command that his commander gave him, and his inverted moral perception of of seeing, fulfilling the command as the main goal becomes -- violating that is, for him, something that is more important than saving a person's life. basically, a very strong ec presentation of -- expression of his inverted moral compass at this point. he is arrested in 1945 by the soviets, and after a year of being transferred, he is not identified as an ss man. he arrives in 1946 in a mine in

check slow virginia advantage ya. -- czechoslovakia. and on his second day in the mine, he walks up the mine, and he's very curious at what is around him. he peeks at a certain point into a shaft. and what happens next is this: his whole face is caught wean the elevator -- between the elevator author and the mine floor, and his whole face is misfigured. he loses sight in one of his eyes. he has a very hard time swallowing. and for a year long he goes through surgeries. but this, this formation of his face did not stop him from becoming a family man. and in 1950 he marries hannah blosche. this is, of course, a montage of him before his disdisfiguration.

he marries her and they have three children, one from a previous marriage of hannah. and hannah testifies in letters she writes to the east german security service years later, she writes how wonderful a husband he was, how he cared for each and every ailment of his children. and reading his letters from the riz many berlin to his wife, i ran into a letter where he cautions her, please, don't let our granddaughter run around the village alone because there are too many cars, and it might be dangerous for her. so he becomes, he becomes a normal family member. not anyone who -- it's hard to say this -- is wicked within him, at least he becomes at this point back into normal life. and in january of 1967 after

being tipped by the west german jewish committee, the east german secret service arrests blosche and takes him into custody. and on his second day in the investigation room and, again, i saw this in berlin, he writes on the back of the famous photo, and this is literally on the back of the photo, he writes an admission that i am the person many the photograph who is standing -- in the photograph who is standing with a helmet and with goggles on the helmet and with a weapon in the combat position. this is a case where i am taking part in the deportation of jews out of the warsaw ghetto. blosche is put on trial in 1969, in a show trial. he deserved everything he got.

and he was sentenced to death. he was executed, his body and belongings cremated and dispersed in an unknown location in east germany. so that is the story of josep blosche. but now i would like to turn to the story of franz konrad who is the person who, in all probability, was the one who took this photo. franz konrad had a very different story. he was surely not destined to become a nazi initially. he was born in the austrian alps in 1905 and was a member of the social democrat party. he was even the treasurer of the local party and spied on the nazis. similar story to other cases. he was a person of the world. he played chess, he sang this a

choir -- in a choir, he was worth -- worked in a co-op food chain x his downfall began -- and his downfall began in 1932 when he was arrested by the austrian police for stealing 900 schilling from the food cooperative. and he was sentenced to three months in jail, and that was a point where the nazi party kicked. his attorney was probably the one who introduced him to the nazi party, and over the three months that he was in jail, the nazi party supported his family. it was the one who also offered him a job when he came out of prison as a road constructer. and at that point he joins the ss, becomes an administrative officer and in his local ss

department in austria. he arrives in the ghetto after being on the eastern front -- sorry about that. he arrives this the ghetto after being on the eastern front in 1942 and be becomes in charge of of the authority in the tibet toe in -- ghetto in charge of collecting the property left behind by the je, with s. on the right-hand side of the photo is probably some type of property that was taken from the homes or the businesses of jews and would be transferred into konrad's warehouses. within these warehouses he had an amazing collection. he had a room with 200 grand pianos, and he reports about this in 1945 when he's arrested

by the americans. he has a room full of art, of very mere and the like. he has a room full of clothes buttons worth 100,000 rife mark, he has a room with 50,000 toys that he took from jewish children and was planning to send to german kids in the ukraine. and the jews in the ghetto named him the ghetto king because they believed that he himself collected for himself property that was worth -- that he was richer than heinrich himmler himself. he collected mostly stamps and tapestry. and be konrad is -- and konrad is arrested -- and for him, of course, the photo of the little boy unlike blosche for whom this

is prey, this is fulfilling of a command, of an order, he sees here or the valuables, the valuables that either the jews are carrying in their luggage, hiding in their body or leaving behind this apartments in which -- in the apartments or the bunkers where they dwelled. and in 1945 the american cic, the predecessor of the cia, is tipped off that konrad has hitler's diaries. those diaries that don't exist. and the americans seek him high and low. and they do find him in the end and instead of finding a pair of hitler's diaries, they find a pair of hitler's trousers. in the interrogation room, the investigator turns to konrad and says, what were you planning to do with a pair -- i should add

of shredded trousers -- of hitler and a suit of hitler? konrad says this air of trowzers and suit -- trousers and suit is from the assassination attempt on the life of hitler in the summer of 1944. okay. what are you planning to do with them? he says, i was planning to travel to america and sell them for a lot of money. a typical konrad an. answer. he also is executed in march of 1952. in warsaw. and finally, within the nazis i will still talk about the jews. the third nazi which i want to mention here is that of jorgen stroop, the notorious ss

veteran. he was a vet van of very veteran of world war i. here he is with his colleagues in the government in deathmold. i actually visited his home, and he was a highly -- he would have loved to have become an officer. but due to the structures of the social, the social structures of german society after world war i, he was unable to become an officer, and his opportunity comes in 1932 when he joins the ss. and heinrich himmler becomes a close associate of him, pushing him up the ranks very quickly to become a high-ranking ss officer. and on april 17, 1943, himmler phones up stroop and orders him to warsaw to oversee the

liquidation of the get toe. stroop arrives there and promises to wipe out the ghetto within three days. and as we all know, this took him over four weeks. and at the end of these four weeks in may of 1943 he submits three copies of a secret report to the heinrich himmler, and it would later get into the hands of eichmann as well. a report into into it lld, "thee to more jews in the warsaw ghetto." and within this report stroop has, basically, two goals. the first of them is to elevate his own status. this photo entitled the leader of the -- [inaudible] shows stroop right here with two of his bodyguards holding rifles

to his sides. the cars surrounding him, the fire blazing in the background x x -- and clearly he is standing with a very authoritative position. by the way, this is blosche on the right-hand side right here. this was, clearly, to mark him as a leader especially in light of his failure to fulfill the eradication or rick biation of the -- liquidation of the ghetto within three days. that is one goal. the second goal is to degrade the jews, to fit into the ideology which he strongly believes of the jews as being subhumans. this photo entitled "jewish i rabbis," and you can clearly see the soiled photos of the jews, you can clearly see the desecration, the sense of put being them down. in the same way, this photo also included the report entitled

"dregs of humanity, "shows a jew with scoliosis and possibly someone with a deformed foot and be an axe between them. i don't know what that axe is doing there, but clearly that is the second goal, degrading the jews, showing them as subhumans. and that is, in fact, those two goals are also what e he sees in this photo within his album entitled, pulled from the get o ghetto -- ghetto by force. on the one hand, it is an orderly evacuation of the jews. it shows his control of scene, of his forces. it shows, also, the contrast between the subhuman jews, the rats, the cockroaches in his view versus the powerful german standing with a helmet on his head, a rifle in his hand, the

superior arkansas yang race versus the subhuman views. stroop is arrested, also, by the americans, extradited to toland and placed on trial in warsaw together with konrad. while konrad was convicted and executed for only killing seven jews, stroop is convicted and can executed for killing tens of thousands of jews. he then writes a clemency letter to the leader, to the president of poland stating that he never consciously did anything immoral. all he was caring about was his wife and family. and as i said, both were executed in march of 1952.

in contra distinction, i also discussed the story of riska traskovic. she has an amazing story. she was within the group -- close to the group, i should say, of the rebels in the ghetto, and she is about 20 years old when the revolt takes place. she miraculously survives. she herself did not take weapons into her hands. she was, she was in charge of managing the home of the kibbutz. and she reports being pulled out of the bunkers, and at that point the nazis taking photos repeatedly. and since other nazis were ordered not to take photos, it is very likely that she saw them taking photos. i do not know, however, whether she saw them take this photo or any other of the photos that

they took. and she herself to the best of my knowledge was not depicted within any one of the photos. now, she is put on the train, and she jumps off and miraculously survives losing, in the process, her boyfriend of three or four years, possibly her husband. she is hurt, but she is able to find shelter with poles and to get, obtain polish identity card. and she, she is liberated in 1945, joins -- or takes part in smuggling of jews across european borders and to the land of israel. she herself marries, moves to israel this the late 1940s and gives birth to two boys, this one being her eldest. and 23 or 24 years later in 1973

in an egyptian ambush in the sinai, her son is killed. a couple of years later she dies of anguish and of sickness. and finally, i will mention the story of of dr. nussbaum. he has a very tragic story. he was born in tel aviv in august of 1935. and 1936 comes and clashes erupt between local arabs and jews. and his parents make a decision to return back to poland. in retrospect, of course, a fatal decision. and in the early 1940s both

his participants are murdered -- parents are murdered, his brothers murdered, his grandparents are missed, most of his relatives are murdered. as a 7-year-old, he remains alone. but for an aunt and uncle that take him in with them and go into warsaw in this hiding where they hide through the revolt. but their money is dwindling, and polish, poles are trying to extract money from them and height give them in -- might give them in, and a rumor comes around that the germans are arranging for a safe haven in a place number 29 outside the warsaw ghetto. the germans, according to the story, are planning to use jews with foreign papers as bargaining chips in return for germans inalternatived abroad.

?rsh -- and the us nussbaums goo the hotel. they are listed, and on july 13, 1943, the ss storms the hotel. all the jews are brought down into the courtyard, and the germans start calling out names. and they call out the name of nussbaum, his uncle. and he walks away ask boards a truck. and they call out the name of hannah nussbaum, and hannah nussbaum walks away and boards the truck. and svi is expecting to hear his name, but his name never comes. and at that point, he says, he steps forward, and a nazi raises his rifle at him, and he raises his hand. that is the moment, says nussbaum, the photo was taken.

this is a horrific story, of course. and it's a very tragic story. but, unfortunately, it's inaccurate because we know the report was on the table of himmler on june 2nd. and the photo was taken within the ghetto. but, of course, this photo represents his true experience, and in that sense it is a true photo of his experience of being arrested by the ss. he's then sent to bergen belzen and is incarcerated there for two years, then moving around in different -- with a train on hearn platoon -- american platoon liberates him and the other jews. of those hotel jews were killed. most of them, i should say. the group that was destined to the land of israel, mandatory palestine, was actually mostly liberated.

let me end my talk with reading out from a short poem written in 1947 by a yiddish poet in new york. the poet turns to the nations of the world and says to them -- and can he talks about this little boy -- and he says to them, you have achieved what you have sought. the jewish boy is dead. the world is filled with towers of jewish bodies. but he doesn't stop by turning to the nations of the world. he also turns to the little boy and says to him the following words: and you, jewish boy, i kiss your face, your pure and kosher jewish eyes through a

million years until the end of days, they demand an answer, your child cries. thank you. [applause] >> i want to thank donny. this is how i know him, for a really wonderful talk, and i hope that his short presentation gave you a sense of how magnificent, how powerful this book is, why it's received prominent mention in "the new york times" and, again, the book hasn't even been officially published yet. so what we would like to do for the next 15 or 20 minutes is engage you in asking questions and offering commentary on what you've just heard. so we'd really like to hear what you think and ask questions for don think. and if you could stand up, please, and identify yourself, that'd be great. >> [inaudible] i'm curious, what sort of

emotional highs and lows did you experience during the period of time that you were investigating all of the aspects of the story? >> this is an interesting question. i will mention one thing, it is -- it was most amazing to me to follow hi -- my own -- being so, getting so accustomed to killing, okay? you read about when you investigate this kind of material for five years, you read about one killing after the other. and at a certain point you don't realize this, and you are -- i'm terrible to say this, but you become happy about finding a good -- and that's a down emotional point. frankly, the story, unfortunately, for me has no highs. there is no redemption. for this story.

and i could mention mundane things of getting contracts, but these are really unimportant things. there are no highs in this kind of of a story in my hind. not -- my mind. not whatsoever. >> hi. i thank you very much. i just wanted to ask a more research-oriented question. how did you determine that the second person you talked about was the photographer? >> okay. the famous photograph has blosche, the personal bodyguard of stroop, there. now, if be blosche is there and, by the way, another bodyguard of stroop is there, we should assume that stroop is there. that is almost obvious. we can see stroop by blosche in

several photos. and since konrad was ordered to accompany konrad all along the way, it is very likely that konrad was there. in addition, i will say that konrad states very clearly that he took photos, that he was the person taking photos in the get toe. he does not recollect this specific image. it becomes, it is a mundane image for them. it's a normal scene for them as blosche says in the trial later. he can't recollect where this was taken, but for us it's iconic, of course, so it's very, very likely, and a few other researchers agree with me that this was konrad. who took the photo. >> hi, i'm carol, and i'm bond withering -- wondering, in your research the question that goes through my mind s that little boy alone?

do you assume that his relatives are in that crowd? what could you find out? >> i have no answers for that. the only thing i know about this boy, the one and only thing is he is probably younger than 10 because he doesn't have a star on his -- i don't have any idea of this woman to the left of him if it's his mother or just someone else. i have no idea. i have no information. from the entire set of photos that i thfghted, i was able to identify in high probability or almost complete certainty jewish images in only one photo. in only one photo of three women from the revolt. on the other hand, i can identify many of the germans in these photos, and that is the imbalance of holocaust photography. and we must remember that most

of the photographs that we see of the holocaust, a clear majority of them are from the perception of the nazis. and this is also a photo taken from the vantage point of nazis. this is a racist in its initial interpretation, a racist poe toe. photo. that should be very clear. >> more questions? >> how did it become iconic? when did this start to become discovered in the west and etc. >> the question of how it became iconic is something that i plan to address in an article that i'm writing, so this is a work in progress as we say in academia. but i will say a few words about that. the photo was, actually to be more accurate, the report was presented in the nuremberg

trials by chief justice jackson? jackson, the american prosecutor. he entered a few of the photos, and i'm not sure whether this one -- i think it was not aired there. and that turned the album, got the album this spotlight. and from there on the jews, the jewish survivors who saw the revolt at the time as the one important achievement, so to say, against the nazis took photos from there, and many of the iconic photos that we know from the holocaust come from that report. so that is the historical exla nation. but i think there are some explanations within the photo. this is a sanitized version of the holocaust. there are no corpses, there are no dead, the jews themselves are not as malnutritioned as you would see in later photos.

they look relatively, so to say, good in comparison to what comes later. this is, also, beyond being a sanitized version, this is, also, a picture that touches on the mother/child connection assuming this is a mother and child although we do not know that. so, and within that line of thought there are only primarily women and children. you barely see any jewish men here. so those are some of the explanations i'm coming up with. there are others, but i will leave those for a later point when i publish an article about this. >> good evening. i think, i arrived a little late when you were being introduced, but there's two points i'd like to ask about or make. one is am i right in assuming that this isn't so much as a result of the storming of the

resistance of the jews because they're clearing people out of houses who are able to carry their packed possessions because they have got bags. and i'm assuming that many of the bunkers that were cleared all you saw were the photographs of people coming out with nothing in their hands. >> this might be a bunker, i don't know. this might be a bunker caught in an early stage of the revolt, but clearly this is within the framework of the revolt because of the date. that's 100% sure. and we also, the jews are being stopped along the way for the nazis to take away property. so it's very clear that they did leave of with some belongings. >> in this place in particular, maybe we can take back the victory that the photographer gives to the that the si regime

regime -- nazi regime and give it back to the people who are being forced out by looking beyond the fear and terror, but looking for the dignity of the people coming out and trying to give that back to them. >> sure. >> these photographs were always taken without any consent, and i think that's one way we can honor the people whose lives ended in such terrible ways. >> i, i endorse your words, every one of them. >> you said that there were p seven other identities you knew of the boy. do you know -- who are they? >> um, i will say two of them are english, one is australian. i know of two in israel, i will report -- i will tell you just of one of these cases. the earliest one i am aware of, it's quite a tragic story. it's reported, it's the earliest i know. this one comes from the 1950s.

the photo is published in an israeli newspaper, and a father who lost both his children in the ghetto sees the photo, and he's convinced that this photo is a photo of his tw two children. and he has no photo to compare it to. only 15 years later is he able to locate a photo, and he comes to the recorder and says, don't they look the same? and, um, for him this photo is those two children. and he even identifies in the hands of the little girl the doll that he gave her for her birthday. and 15 years later he still comes back with remorse because he believed that his children survived until the revolt in april of '43 when he actually lost them in '42, and he's convinced that he theg elected them for -- neglected them for eight months in the ghetto.

i believe he, he saw his children, but these were not factually his children. >> well, to follow up on that. so you're saying that, basically, all of the claims for being the boy or people who thought they knew the boy were genuinely honest. >> can they were genuinely honest, there's no doubt about it. but the likelihood of this child surviving is less, i would say, than 2 or 3%. the number of jews in poland who were killed exceeds 90 %, and a child of this age would have never survived. there is no chance in the world that he survived. and in each and every account of these seven or eight that i followed, there were indications that it just does not fit. and, frankly, it's very important for me to say that

this jewish boy is a symbol, an icon, but in no way do i believe that he's less or more important than the kid, the child on the left-hand side or of any child who's not photographed within this framework. it's very -- something that arouses our curiosity. but there's so many that were killed. and it's just impossible, and the more important question for me at least was how this photograph came about. >> we have time for one more brief question. >> [inaudible] any of the seven people? >> yes. yes, i did speak with one, dr. sri nussbaum, and heard his horrific story. unfortunately, he's not in good condition today. so it's, one can shot

communicate with him today. but -- okay. >> are you aware that one of the founders -- [inaudible] someone who was in the warsaw ghetto and, i think, managed to escape? >> oh, really. i have -- this photo, basically, represents for many of us and for me, surely, all those who perished. and it also for someone of my age represents the lost childhood and for survivors the lost childhood of their parents. this is the photo there their childhood -- from their childhood that they do not have. that is the photo. >> [inaudible] >> correct. samuel made 75, i think,

reproductions of the little boy, yes. >> all right. well, on that note we do need to end, but we can continue the discussion with donny downstairs where he will be selling books. they're available even though they're not officially out in the bookstores yet. i want to thank the museum for hosting such a wonderful event. i want to, also, thank the federation very much for sponsoring this professorship as well as this talk, and above all i want to thank don porat for giving a really -- >> thank you, robert. [applause] >> thank you. so we will be shepherding donny downstairs and, again, he will be happy to continue talking to you. [inaudible conversations] >> this event was hosted by the illinois holocaust museum and education center in skokie, illinois. for more information visit ilholocaustmuseum.org. >> every weekend booktv brings

you 48 hours of history, biography and public affairs. here's a portion of one of our programs. >> the reason i felt it important to do a book essay, because that's what it is, on the obama administration is because i think it's extremely important for progressive people not to create too many illusions about what's around. because they don't help. and to see in quite as hard-headed way what this new administration is, what it represents in terms of foreign policy, imperialist continuity and what it represents at home. and be it's important to do that to understand to what extent it's different and to what extent it is continuing the policies of the previous three

administrations. not just bush and cheney, but clinton and bush sr.. and from that point of view the balance sheet i have prepared, the obama syndrome: war abroad and surrender at home, is not a very optimistic account or a pleasing account of this administration. now, it's not a pleasant task to write books like this. [laughter] because, you know, when you see what's going on and read a lot of material which has been published on domestic policies leave alone on foreign policies, it's striking how conservative the administration has been. now, i know all the restraints and constraints. i know that we live this a neoliberal period that despite the crash of 2008 the system and it political leaders have not

attempted any serious structural reforms which were, you know, necessary after that crash. and so the crash has not gone away, it's simply been blasted over with sticking plaster. and it is going to worry people and is worrying, certainly, progressive economists, many of them who are not that radical who are saying that it's not going to work. so here was an opportunity for a newly-elected president who was not responsible and couldn't be held responsible for this particular economic crash, who with had -- unlike previous presidents -- mobilized hundreds of thousands of young people in this country, brought them out into the streets to help him get elected and had created the illusion that they would do

something. i mean, yes, we can is not a very concrete slogan -- [laughter] but it offers some hope or at least creates the impression of offering hope. and so young people were happy, they were mobilized, and they thought that some change would take place abroad and at home. the balance sheet is what? let's first cuts briefly the -- discuss briefly the continuity in foreign policy. now, the continuity in foreign policy was symbolized by keeping gates on at the pentagon. by, essentially, accepting the view that petraeus' surge in iraq had solved the problem. by sticking to bush's plans on a so-called withdrawal from iraq

without bringing about any change there at all. by pushing these lands through which are -- plans through which are, essentially, very simple. withdrawing combat units from the main cities of iraq, building huge military bases in that country and keeping between 50-70,000 troops there permanently. that is what the withdrawal is, and it's not new. the british tried it in the '20s and '30s, exactly the same plan, and it imploded when there was a revolution in iraq in 1958, and they had to, they threw the british out. and it's are likely in some -- very likely in some shape and form, not in the shape and form of the '50s, but a similar thing will happen if these troops stay in there. on iran, once again administration has carried on with the old policies, essentially, in the case of iran

appeasing the israelis. because the big pressure for not doing any deal with iran both on the nuclear question and generally on other issues comes from the israelis who are prepared to do anything to preserve their own nuclear monopoly. that is what that particular issue is about. and the failure of this administration to break with those policies of the previous administration is not all that surprising because i remember as i point out in the book, i was in the midwest teaching for four weeks in urbana-champaign, and i saw this young, fresh-faced guy running for the senate called barack obama. and i was at the house of friends, and they said he is the great hope of the democrats. and i said,ing well, let's watch him. because i'm always interested in

great hopes. [laughter] and the great hope was asked, president bush has said it might be necessary to bomb iran and take out the their nuclear installations or whatever they're doing. what would be your position on that? i support the president totally, said the great hope. [laughter] so that was my first sighting of him, and i just felt instinctively that this is a guy who is really going to try to please. and he is a weak guy in many ways and is not going to push through some tiny shift in domestic or global policies. ..