last 20 years, we've been promoting a cairk ca tour of free market democracy. so on the market side, there was no western nation today that has anything close to a lesse fare system. we have taxation, a antitrust laws, social security. for the last 20 years, we've been urging poor countries to adopt a kind of bear knuckled version of capitalism that europe and the u.s. abandoned long ago. and it's the same with democracy. for the last 20 years, the u.s. government has been urging the poor countries of the world to hold elections, to implement immediate universal suf raj. sufferage. we disenfranchised the poor for generations, and more importantly -- i mean, i think that's out of the question, exclusions from the sufferage, i'm not in favor of that, but more importantly, democracy in

the west means much more than just unrestrained majority rule. which i think is what we've been promoting. i think democracy is also about constitutionalism and minority protections and property protections, human rights. i think a lot more thought is needed than just shipping out ballot boxes for elections, which, you know, brought people like ploas vich to power. >> this is the cover of the book. it's called "world on fire." our guest has been amy chua. yalyale uni ..

for example, i found that all of them were ambitious. and some were even ruthless. for example, robert kennedy was accused of being ruthless. nixon and agnew of being conniving and corrected and also carter.

but with joe biden that is not the case at all. i interviewed 120 people for the book, and many in the senate and in washington and in delaware. of the worst i found about him was a young fellow who was an aide to republican candidate against biden in one of the reelection campaigns and i asked why did joe biden continue? he was reelected six times and he said he is an embarrassment but he is our embarrassment. that is the worst that i was told about him. but as we all know, joe

biden has had to barnacles on his ship of this nature. not as damaging it anyway to the negative characteristics as 92 agnew or carter but that he talks too much and puts his foot to in his mouth too often. joe biden would plead guilty to this himself. i would like to read what republicans have said. the first is bob dole. who characteristically said

joe has a short fuse and the ability to go with it. when joe use to get up to speak we all figured we have 30 or 45 minutes to go to the office to get a haircut. [laughter] not that we didn't want to hear what he had to say we probably have heard already. [laughter] then there was this from a decade-old the republican from nebraska who traveled widely with buydown on the foreign relations committee. here is what hagel had to say in regard too. >> every time somebody talks sought to put themselves in a position where he could be

subjected to intense criticism and analysis. that is just the nature of politics and leadership and has joe talks about as much as any senator i have been around. joe likes to talk if he likes people. he likes to engage. he cannot help himself. when you do that, to some extent, trivializing the seriousness of purpose and your identity. joe does talk too much and he knows that he talks too much but that does not take away the death of his knowledge of the great experience and judgment. is a very honest and open person and if you ask a question, he will tell you, even if you don't ask my question he will tell you. [laughter] that is how he is. it seems we should put a premium on that with our elected officials. rather than having to pry

everything out of him he is as forthcoming in politician as we have never been around and then you're less likely to get yourself into trouble from another republican. unfortunately, these sorts of impressions during the first two years of the administration. when obama's offer the vice presidency to biden, he was

not seeking it. he told obama's that he thought it as chairman of the senate foreign relations committee he could be more useful to the country. and to his own career. he sets out conditions to obama that if he did take the vice presidency, first and foremost, he wanted to be involved in the governing of the country and did not just want to be a showboat or a ceremonial vice president. and he would be in the room when the big decisions were made. obama agreed to all of the conditions and that is how it has worked out over the first two years. obama has looked to by been

increasingly for his counsel and for his friendship. in terms of personality, they are not that much alike with pride in being open and outgoing and obama at times more aloof and protective. but as we have seen with biden's role to oversee the withdrawal of troops from iraq and monitoring the surge in afghanistan, that biden has been a key figure and at home we have seen in the last week, the important role to work out a republican and minority leader mitch mcconnell on

the tax deal and then after that trying to do with the bad feelings among the democrats in the senate. but in all of this, biden has been extremely active and visible vice president. much more so than his predecessors dick cheney who was constantly being taken off to the undisclosed location for his protection or for the country's protection. [laughter] hot the biden has been constantly in view. almost unprecedented periods at presidential press conferences. and you may remember during

the signing of the health care reform bill when biden was heard whispering it was a big deal with the exploitive and -- exploitive monday the dow. [laughter] you may wonder why obama picked him to be the running mate in the first place knowing his penchant for talking too much and sometimes into trouble but more important why has he made by in such an open partner in the governing the country maybe more so than bill clinton did with obligor or carter did with mondeo who was probably the first real active vice president with responsibilities. first, obama took seriously

what all presidential nominee say when they are nominated taking the person most qualified to be president. it is a pledge that is honored in most cases. obama's saw biden's record as a widely traveled senator and he could be president if he had to be. that helping to persuade him of that was biden in the 2007 presidential debate that led up to the 2008 race biden was concise and articulate in his responses to the point* that many

times other candidates including obama would preface the remarks by saying joe is right in that became a family joke to recall that he is right. one of the most remembered quote from the debates when the moderator asked the president if he could control with his talking and with a straight face he answered yes. [laughter] and then he broke into his famous by been grin and that was one of the biggest events from the night. every presidential candidate or nominee says he will pick the person most qualified to be president. we have too many examples that is not the case.

most notably with george bush seen you're choice of the hapless dan quayle. bush almost became president himself one month after the inauguration of ronald reagan when nearly escaped assassination. george bush senior should have known better. then you have the example of john mccain choosing sarah palin which was clearly the hail mary pass to pull of the election that was sinking. with biden, you don't hear very many people complaining that if anything happened to the president, he would not be qualified to takeover.

a and as a reporter who covers joe biden in the late -- late '70s and early '80s, i was well aware of the complaints about his talking too much. i was an iowa in 1987 when it was such a limited to a politician at the iowa state fair leading to charges of plagiarism by charges that as a student at syracuse law school had committed plagiarism with the paper that he wrote. biden was very hurt by the churches and worked very hard to have himself exonerated. years later in fact, a court

decision in exonerated him in the case of the syracuse law school charge. i talk to people of syracuse about it and they said people did not think much of it at the time that been the focus came with the incident and iowa it was regurgitated which often happens in politics. if a politician makes one mistake they get over it if it is the same mistake twice or three times, it is a pattern and it is very hard to shake that impression. biden was very upset about having to get at of the presidential race, which she did after that because it question his integrity. of the buydown family is a

very tight and proud family family, very strong religious family and dedicated to each other. the very fact that joe biden was accused of lying was crushing to him. to this day he often promises it in a speech by saying i will give you my word as a biden meaning if i say it, you can take it to the bank. so after that episode of the plagiarism was very jarring to him because of that. at the time of that episode, biden was just beginning as the chairman of the senate judiciary committee come on the

confirmation of judge robert bork deciding he had to continue the run for the presidency or get out and fight against bork and he did the ladder and it was defeated in biden was considered one of the major contributions ever as a senator. levied just tell you about this book about his incredible beginning in politics running for the county council in delaware at the age of 27 and winning then two years later running

against the entrenched senator and upsetting him. two weeks after he was elected to the senate, before he was old enough to serve, at the age of 30 in the interim, one week before christmas when his wife and three small children, two boys and infant were and a terrible car accident when a huge truck plowed into their car. biden was crushed and thought about abandoning going into the senate that all and had to be dissuaded by members of his family and

also the senate majority leader at the time and other leading democrats like hubert humphrey to come to the senate and they urged him to do that but if nothing else as a therapy for the depth of his grief. only by that pleading did they do so. you may recall stories about joe biden commuting between wilmington and washington which began at the time of the accident when he determined he would be with the boys who were toddlers borough every night every morning he would get on the train to washington then that might come back home to wilmington.

he was sworn into this segment at the side of the hospital but the -- hospital bed of beau biden who was still in a hospital at the time and did that 36 years. other members of the professional delegation melamine to accompany him and it turned out to be so close although it was a slick delegation with the three man delegation. but as a result of this behavior or schedule, he was not very well known by the other senators for quite awhile and when home every night while the others eight

and drink together and would socialize during the week. also joe biden is a teetotaler band did not have much to do with the social circuit. he never went to any receptions and pretty much the same now that he is vice president now he has been seen around washington a little more but he and his wife jill go back to their home in wilmington just about every weekend. what did the other senators learned from what aa -- everybody in delaware new? he had the end coming commitment to his state, and his family, and to his catholic religion.

and from his earliest days from a kid from scranton pa., a blue-collar town and is not a cliche to say they saw biden through the yearly tragedies in his life and continued to be with him throw his political career. leading his irish and who assured him early on that his father was not a bad person. [laughter] joe was foe of mischievous behavior as any kid would be. and he would concentrate on sports and then girls, when

he was on spring break in the bahamas from the university of delaware, he spotted her and courted her almost phonetically from that moment and the reason he went to syracuse law school is because she lived in a suburb of syracuse and that was that. and then talking to joe with the early days they insist they heard joe say from the earliest days that he wanted to be president. he tried to back off at one point with the speech with the catholic school and the nun said joe we biden that

is not true. you told me in the fifth grade you would be president but he had his eyes on something higher than local politics and served as the county council of new castle county, the largest, for two years and went to the democratic state chairmen who was retiring from the county council for some advice. biden was coming to ask him about his duties on the council and instead he said i want to run for the senate. he said joe, you are representing the largest county in delaware your constituency is much larger than if you ran for the state senate and biden said i mean the united states

senate. he knew early that was his ambition. five years after the death of his first wife, jo finally married again at the urging of the two boys who were under the wing of joe's sister, valerie, from the time of the accident up to this point*. they testify about going to biden at one point* to say to them, dad, we think we should mary jo. [laughter] and joe was hesitant because of the -- responsibility because of the boys but married in 1977 and went on their honeymoon in new york and the boys took the

honeymoon suite and joe took their room and they went to a hamburger joint than to see and a. that was the honeymoon. soon after they had a daughter ashley who would follow the family footsteps now doing social work in delaware. also this time joe biden continued to build up a reputation as a hard-working senator. and the beginning he was a celebrity because he was 30, a history of a family axinite, he was at -- accident and was quite a celebrity and speaking around the country

country, eventually about talking about running for president. of course, , the senate pieces were the confirmation hearings that he led to the members of the supreme court. the book that we already talked about, biden managed to get the civil rights groups that would get into the act about defeating robert bork to not refuse the attack and he led the successful fight of robert bork. sometime after word, he had another serious health problem where he had to aneurysms. one of which, the last rites

of the catholic church were said over him and he persevered with a strong family behind him and continued on. four years after the bork hearings the undertook the hearings for the confirmation of clarence thomas which in many ways were more contentions -- contentious then the bork hearings. biden and the hearings had been over backwards to be fair in spite of the opposition. but he could do the same things with the clarence thomas hearings but less successful. becoming quite a criticism of biden at the end of the hearings which you may recall a young black

professor anita hill raised charges of sexual harassment against thomas. because of pressures from the republicans on the committee and others, to witnesses who wouldn't were prepared to substantiate any it hill's charges were not called to testify. although they did provide depositions of the allegations were made biden was severely criticized when thomas was confirmed for letting that happen. and then if they would have testified he never would have been confirmed but he was.

he believed if thomas had been a white man he would have been confirmed. and the conduct of that hearing, he came away with less seem then after the bork hearings. but nevertheless, clearly a national figure because of those events. for all of the stories about bided being a daily traveler on amtrak, he was widely traveled around the world. he got to know many of the world's leading figures and built up quite a reputation for himself of a foreign

policy expert. one of these was day visit from yugoslavia when he confronted slowdown milosevich and called him a war criminal to his face. controversy came up over that and some people said it did not have them but i have a picture of biden shaking his fist over the table at most of its. [laughter] and later chapters in the book talk about by this position concerning the wars in iraq over afghanistan and the previous wars. he was against the persian gulf war. but then supported bush invasion of iraq but criticized him proposed capitalisation of the iraq

by provinces that got no where and regarded his position on iraq. but obama showed great confidence with the involvement in iraq with the american forces and as we saw last year, with the war and torturous debate wondering what to do about afghanistan, biden was the influential force with obama pushing back against the generals against the search and eventually when obama

put 30,000 troops into afghanistan, biden was widely cast as a loser in the argument. but with the pursuit in afghanistan of getting up with al qaeda and because of by than ventas the bidding written questions to obama's, what they felt about the allegation that biden was a loser. i like to read the response. >> here is what he says brighten think anyone who is

party to the exhaustive discussions we had would say that. that biden was the loser. he was enormously helpful in the discussions now looking at the synthesis of the advice he gave along with secretary gates general petraeus. i think we arrived at exactly the right answer and would not have gotten there as quickly or at all with each of their contributions that the vice president played a vital role in the process. he has been in the middle of the argument about whether we should come out of afghanistan next july and was to urge obama's to set the timetable, not a

deadline and from what i can tell is still fighting the battle today. biden had other contributions in the senate he was a champion for violence against women act and the on the legislation to put more cops on the street and always trying to fight crime. he is not a knee-jerk liberal in any sense but in delaware he was against busing for the schools and melamine 10 school district. said he would antagonize some little democrats and he

takes a liberal position pretty much across the board. i tried to make this biography definitive to go beyond a memoir that biden himself wrote to four years ago. it is not an authorized biography but i spent four and a half hours with buy the end in many interviews with him and his family especially his brother and sister and all three children. all of the allegations and setbacks are fully reported in the book. but i come down that with

the will of a biden presidency, and nobody wants at this point* the way that it would have been. i believe he could have assumed the presidency with confidence and comfort with the unpredictability as a messenger giving his open nature but i find it very reassuring, as the country continues to struggle with the economic problems at home and abroad. they gave very much for listening to me i will be happy to take a few questions. [applause] >> thank you very much

anybody who has a question please write them on the card provided on your table they will be brought up. the first question is given the tragic death of richard holbrooke yesterday, i do you think joe biden will have to step and to undertake some of those duties with the afghanistan and pakistan set up? >> the question is whether biden will have to step been to fill in from richard holbrooke performed until his death. i don't see and taking fat role exactly because biden is already very much involved in monitoring the

war in afghanistan and persuading the pakistani government to be more forthcoming in dealing with the troubles of al qaeda and pakistan. i think it is essential for obama to find somebody else to find holbrook's role which will not be easy because he was a superior negotiator and diplomat and a very serious loss for the administration. >> any reason to give credence to the rumor that biden would change jobs in 2012? >> gettelfinger so.

because first of all, biden loves the job that he has got and has three clinton seems to love the job she has got. she does not want to be vice president. she wants to be president. [laughter] beyond that, the relationship between biden and obama has become very strong and biden said recently that obama asked him to stay on the ticket with him and he said he would. >> with rahm emanuel departure while the vice president advice on matters with congress become more important? >> definitely. in dealing with that, obama was not known on the hill

all the when the senate for a short time, biden has better contacts in the senate particularly more than rahm emanuel and he is very well liked probably even more than rahm emanuel. [laughter] so they will continue to be a player with the administration with congress this fam mac how long have you known biden before you began the research and did you follow his career from the beginning? >> yes. i was an old timer when he came to the senate i had already been here 20 years. i have followed his hearings occasionally during the

foreign relations committee. they said i traveled with him a bit with the was not an insider, but i had him and there was a good relationship with judge is unusual and i really started this book to receive for the election, 2008 getting a tentative conditional contract depending on who would win. and then followed very closely and saying it was all over in delaware, a syracuse, scranton and they

pursued over the next year's two macquarie did not by dan allow the two women to testify over the anita hill's charges? that will never die. [laughter] >> i asked him about it and he punted on a question. as saying that the committee did not want to have these women testify. i gleaned from conversations that they did want them to testify and it is a big question mark with people involved in the will of this lowered and do not think very kindly toward biden because they have not testified but coming ahead recently when thomas's wife

for reasons that escape me and the rest of the world, it issued an apology from india hell and basically got what she should have expected. [laughter] what role does jill biden play in the public life of joe biden? >> she follows her own career and now teaching at northern virginia community college after a long career in the community college field in delaware. she is accompanied to school every day by secret service although she has managed to take a discreet position and

when she is asked by her students what her relationship is with the vice president of the united states, -- . [inaudible] [laughter] not a democratic activist but aggressively supportive of the whole concept of community colleges and has often spoken on that subject. >> what do you think of the future of journalism with the current state of newspapers in this country? >> someone who five years ago had to take an offer i could not refuse at "the baltimore sun." i am very distressed not only personally but

professionally about the state of newspapers. i am not all confident but i am more concerned about the existence of journalism as a about the quality of journalism with all of the ramifications. i deplore the newspapers cutting back on the copy editing if you pick up a newspaper today guaranteed you'll find a grammatical or factual error and of course, particularly cable news, they don't seem.

>> and the truthfulness of what they reports. it is a battle that journalism pass to fight to maintain its own integrity and reputation. [applause] >> thank you so much. we have a very small token of appreciation here for you. the woman's the national vote democratic club where he will sign his book. thank you very much. [applause]

>> it is a delight to be here and i very much appreciate your taking one hour of this bright and perfect afternoon and a new york to spend it listening to the account of what may be the single darkest chapter in the history of the modern west. what i'd like to talk to you

about very briefly, is a catastrophe, a catastrophe in which 14 million people, chiefly children and women and the aged were killed over the space of just 12 years by two regimes come led the nazi german regime and the stalin regime from the soviet union. this total figure of 14 million is in itself astonishing and a number that is too large hot to grasp and i will return to what that means but also a number that tells us something very special about these two regime is. we now know or at least have a pretty good certainty about said total number of people killed by these two regimes. it was about 17 million.

of those, about 14 million were killed in a place that i call the blood lands, that is to say not so much russia or germany but the land between berlin and moscow the baltic states of belarus and the ukraine so of all of the killing that took place organized by hitler and stalin from the atlantic to the pacific, the tremendous majority of this mass murder was concentrated in the relatively small territory. this is the event that caught my attention. it strikes me once we know the numbers and can localize these numbers in time to locate in a place, is the event that has few

comparisons in the world and the question is why is there no history of this event and nobody sees it as the event? i like to say a few words about why i think that is. in the last 20 years and headed to opportunity to raise such a history. of the reason we have this opportunity is the soviet union collapsed in 1990 line the archives began to open in 1989. this was very important. obviously in terms of understanding the history of the soviet union and communist eastern europe. however it was also incredibly important to understand the history of nazi germany. why is that? very simple. the germans carried out almost all of their killings on the territory that immediately after the war fell behind -- behind the iron curtain. the line behind which they

killed is the same line that marked off the post war empire. of the wise to have an idea of nazi german policy 193-93-1945 1/2 to have archives that concern those territories where the germans did most of the killing. a surprise result of the end of communism now have a stronger basis on which to talk about not only the history of communism but also nazi germany. why hasn't this book been written by someone else? because this is not a book i particularly wanted to write i would have tipped my cap to say very good but i wrote it out of a sense of obligation when i realized it had not been written then a more worrying feeling that perhaps it never would be. put the reasons why these

have not been written in is because they have to do research and weaknesses very impressive schools of impressive rating and i am that east european historian. although we will learn a tremendous amount what has happened what we have learned is the estonians and ukrainians and the hungarians, almost all of it has been framed within a familiar a national context. these enormous tragedies that i am discussing or will discuss can only be seen from a certain point* of view. the country that this would apply the lease is the ukraine where half of the killing have been pretty thin from that point* of view you cannot see the

totality certainly not of the events beyond the famine. the second problem is with the history of the soviet union and i would emphasize the russian and ukrainian american and other historians working have discovered incredibly important things about the subject of my book. what has not happened is these findings have not been integrated into a geographical approach that i favor. we have seen, the consensus has shifted what collectivization meant with the predominant opinion now being it was a deliberate action designed to start. we know much more about the great terror. but these policies weighed most heavily on those of the western world and the soviet union the same territory as a few years later the germans would kill in the largest numbers. this overlaps although

almost never notice. the soviet history tends to jump 1941 through 1945 with the board treated as a separate subject. but once we treat the territory we can make the observation that the places where stalin killed were often the places where hitler killed. the third reason is the strongest reason of the history of the holocaust. the last 20 years, the historiography of the holocaust has been raised to very high levels by german historians and also israelis and americans. and new schools coming out of poland and other european countries this is important but there are limitations. the first is language. almost all of the holocaust history that is read is

based upon german sources which can get you far if you're trying to do is understand german decision making. but you could go further if you have languages in eastern europe but they do not help you with the victims whether jewish or nine jewish and 97% of the jews killed in the holocaust did not know german. even if you're only concern with the german victims you would find it would limit you and the nine jewish victims are less likely to speak german those that left behind traces but those are not in the german language. the second the limitation of the history of the holocaust is it that to it is related and tends to take the perspective of berlin and will begin the story in berlin or germany then

expand out words rather rapidly into eastern europe. the most important history of the holocaust, the most important fad is widely read, led to not give a strong sense of what type of society ukraine or belarus or poland was. in order to get a robust sense of the jews and their neighbors beyond germany, one hef's to say say, it day particular test what does it say about the other german crimes? with more than 3 million soviet prisoners of war that is the second largest after the holocaust medicis mention very briefly or not all but it is very important to understand the holocaust to understand soviet prisoners of war.