can't do everything at once. do we have time for one more? >> i just want to follow upon what you just said. you said that you had a personal interaction with obama and were very impressed with his ideas and how they fit into a progressive agenda. then those of us that live in the press to the agenda seemed disappointed. but then we also want to present these ideas that he was a very much fighting and coming up against the whole system that we know is in place. perry much discouraged this agenda and the way that we want to presented and the way that many people in this country feel and believe it needs to big balanced. you know, my hope is that he understands all the things that you understand and that the

progressives understand in terms of how the system works and it will be dealt with. on some level he has a plan in terms of dealing with the obstruction that he is going to come up with in terms of delivering what it is that we really help from his campaign he was going to be able to deliver and whether or not there should be some hope, i guess, is what i'm looking for, ultimately if he gets another term he will be able to deliver on. >> good question. well said. i think he can rest assured that he does understand the things that i understand and more. i feel confident about that. there is a "in my book that i barrault from one of obama's mentors in chicago who taught obama that when you can't get the whole hog you have got to be happy with a ham sandwich. very much at handsomest man.

he is getting all of the ham sandwiches secant. these other rather fatty and tasteless hands that are available today. we will there be a better sandwich with tastier portions of the pay? you know, i had this theory. i thought it was a great theory, and never did three or four times. he ran this great campaign. he was going to lower and work with republicans. people wanted that, and it was great. a good way for a black man to become president of the united states. terry and threatening. very comforting. and then he would try and do it. of course it would be impossible because republicans had no interest in cooperating. so then he could then said, i

tried to do this nicely and be a good guy. they will play along. now i'm going to have to, you know, wash the floor with their face. we never got to that point. he is still saying he is going to try harder and harder to be nice. the media are demanding he reached out further and further and give them his entire shoulder, not just his elbow down. and he seems to not be picking up the second part of the strategy that i had planned for him that i thought was such a good idea. so i'm genuinely confused. i thought what i thought he was doing made a lot of sense. i told my friends to be cool. it's part of the plan. it's great. maybe it is an 8-year plan, and not a 4-year plan. you are supposed to and these things on a hopeful note. maybe it is an a-year plan, but it will require a lot of work on the kinds of people that push. that is our job.

okay. so i guess it's not the end. one more question. has to be a hopeful question. >> i have a suggestion. as a black person who had voted i wasn't that wasn't disappointed or in any way confused as to who obama was because i didn't vote for him. mckinney, the real black candidate in the election. it is kind of disappointing that a lot of black people's perspective, they didn't expect a whole lot from obama because of who he put in office, who he rode with, the bus he wrote on, that kind of thing. ..

>> those were black, obama received over 90%. and where he received over 70%. so you may say that louis farrakhan and reverend wright are real black any other 90 something% back are not, but i would say iraq obama's a real black, he's a black that blacks can be proud of. all america can be proud of. and attack it doesn't happen to agree with you and reverent and luther can't is the reason that he is seen by all kinds of americans, white, black, brown, yellow, red, as a leader. and would not be seen as such if he held those views. so i will have to fundamentally disagree that's a problem. thank you, everybody, for staying calm and thanks for coming.

[applause] >> eric alterman is a columnist for the nation and the "daily beast." as well as in english and journalism professor at brooklyn college and cooney graduate school. he is the author of numerous books including "what liberal media?."

>> here's a portion of one of our programs. >> in addition to a questionnaire that covered a wide variety of background items, the astronomers were asked to imagine the nation's history from 1966 to the end of the century. in other words, the year 2000. and so they were looking ahead or 34 years and imagining what they perceived or what they were

viewing as what would happen to our country for the remainder of the century. and a graduate student who is doing the study, richard brown guard, was surprised by what he described as the believe of yaf members that a continued trip to the welfare state and socialism and moral decay would be reversed in the near future by an awakening of the american people, resulting in moving the train of events back to common sense. >> he also surveyed members of students for a democratic society which was the leading new left, or leftist organizatorganization on campuses of the '60s. and the young democrats and the college republicans. and he reported on his results in an article he cowrote and was

published in academic journal. it's interesting to view some of the projections of these yaf members in 1966. one yaf member predicted a redirection of american society towards freedom and conservative principles. remember a game he is in 1966. here's what he said. the united states led by hypocritical and unprincipled leaders becomes very bureaucratic in an increasingly socialistic. the united states generally loses the battles of foreign affairs because it does not present its philosophy of free enterprise, libertarian beliefs, et cetera, as well as it should. sounds almost familiar to the current day, doesn't it? finally, as he predicted in the 1960s -- excuse me, in the 1980s or thereabouts, the american people realize that

economic security is not necessarily freedom. they realize their freedoms are being abridged. they realize economy is becoming too regimented and the government to bureaucratic. that people will then change the trend of events back to commonsense conservative principles of government. remember his prediction was 1980. and if you recall from history, 1980 as it turned out was indeed the year in which the american people voted for a conservative president, ronald reagan. who did ,-comit, indeed -- [applause] >> who did indeed change the trend of events back to common sense conservative principles of government. he got cited another try for as predicting the following events in the near future from 1966 to

2000. his predictions were as follows. 1968 republican victory. 1972 reagan elected president. 1976 reagan reelected. 1978, fall of soviet russia. 1980, all of britain, china. 1985 end of welfare, social security and medicare. 2000, end of unions. now, as he and his co-author noted, compared with their counterparts on the left, yaffer seem to have a mountain of 90 faith. well, let's look back nearly 45 years later and we can see that this 90 faith seems to have been rather accurate in its prediction of future events. change a few of the dates, modify a few of the conclusions

come and these yaf members who were then only high school and college students have laid out the political history of the last third of the 20th century. because consider, nixon's victory in 1968 brought both our realignment of american politics, as well as admittedly the disgrace of watergate come in beach and resignation. reagan's victory came eight years after the yaffer had predicted, but was indeed followed by a landslide reelection. it took nine more years for the berlin wall to fall, closely followed by the demise of the soviet union. then in his 1993 state of the union message, a new democratic president promised to, quote, end welfare as we know it. and the reforms of our welfare

system were enacted a short while later when republicans gained a majority in congress in 1994. two years after that original state of the union message, that same president declared, quote, the era of big government is over. in a state of the union message. >> to watch this program in its entirety, go to booktv.org. simply type the title or the author's name at the top left of the screen and click search. >> next, dan porat, associate professor of education at hebrew university in jerusalem presents his research on an iconic photograph of an anonymous but in the warsaw ghetto taken in the spring of 1943. he discusses his book at the illinois holocaust museum and education center in skokie, illinois. this program is about 50 minutes.

>> thank you very much for your welcoming words, and it's a pleasure to be here. thank you all for coming in this cold evening. chicago, windy city. let me first thank the jewish federation of chicago, and especially michael for arranging and supporting my coming to chicago. it has been a pleasure being here, and i thank you for that. i would also like to thank the uic study program, and especially my friend and colleague robert johnston and others for their warm welcome. it has been a true wonderful experience being here. and, finally, let me thank the illinois holocaust museum and education center, and especially rick for allowing me to come here and present my work do you. this is my first time present

this work. and it's an exciting moment for me to be able to do this. and i couldn't find a better place than here. so, i will be speaking tonight with you about the very famous photograph of a little boy raising his hand in warsaw ghetto. this shuttle photo which represents the holocaust, a photo which encapsulates within it the holder of that terrible time the terror on the face of the little boy and the s. as men standing in the background with his rifle, possibly aimed at the little boy. this is of course the icon of the holocaust, which many of us are familiar with and no. it's a very famous photograph, and as is well known it was published -- it was first -- it was taken in warsaw ghetto during an uprising in the spring

of 1943 and was incorporated within an album made by the and doors ss general, jurgen stroop, an outcome which he prepared on the occasion of his victory over the jews in warsaw. now, over the past five years that i've been investigating and researching the backgrounds, the story behind the photograph, friends and colleagues would approach me and ask me, dan, how did you come up with this topic was how did you come up with the idea of investigating the story behind one photograph? and, frankly, they were usually disappointed with my answer. my answer was that it was no inspiration, no revelation. it was mere coincidence. i basically stumbled upon this topic. and it took, basically the moment when this photograph

became, the topic, begin in the winter of 2001 in jerusalem, i was conducting a research project on the way israeli team -- teenagers perceive the holocaust, their knowledge of the holocaust, and in the winter i was in the home of one teenager. her name, shelley, a 16 year old. and i can vividly remember that moment when we were talking about the horrors of the holocaust and she was describing the experience of her family, much of it murdered during this event. her father were sitting by her. he literally was born on the rebel of the warsaw ghetto. and as she was talking i pulled out this photo, and i placed it on the table. what happened next was extremely surprising eric she smiled.

and she began to giggle. and then she pointed at the little boy and she said, you know, he's a relative of mine. he lives in new york. and the punchline was, do you want his phone number? [laughter] you can imagine my face at that moment. now, i would hear that story time and time again in the years that were to come. i heard it from other students. i heard from officials. i heard from professors in university i heard from history professors. but, unfortunately, i can say very clearly that today i know of at least seven different identities of the little boy, none of which, i can unfortunately, are accurate. the boy in my mind, a very

strong in this opinion, was either shot minutes after this photo was taken or was gassed a couple of days later. but looking at this photograph, at different question came up. i question that in my mind is even more significant than the question of the identity of the little boy. and this question was the question of how was this photograph taken in the first place? how was this photograph in which most of us, most human beings seem to cruelty, the repeated cruelty i should say, of man toward man, how could this photograph incorporated in a victory album, how could someone take pride in this photograph, if you're as an expression of beauty, an expression that he wants to boast about? how could this be a photograph

included in the victory album? and that was a basic question that would lead my research in years to come to look at the core of my book. and to answer that question, i turned to five biographies which intersect in the photo of the little boy. the first of them is in ss man, a soldier, ss man who stands behind the little boy. named josef blosche. the second is a low ranking transit officer, administrative officer, franz konrad, who in all probability was the one who took the photograph. and the third is the notorious jurgen stroop who was the one who incorporated the photo in his victory album and was the

commander. josef blosche was his personal bodyguard and can be seen in several of the photos from that period, and konrad was on his staff and went with him wherever he went in the ghetto. now, in contrast, to jewish life also intersects in the photo. the first of them being that -- he was in the ghetto during the revolt and reports saying photos being taken. there was a good chance that she saw these ss men taking the photos. and, finally, the story of dr. nussbaum. a doctor in new york, claiming

that he is the boy in the photo. he is not actually the little boy in the photo. i argue that the photo totally represents his horrific experience. now, the first person i like to speak about is josef blosche, the soldier standing behind the little boy with a rifle in his hand. josef blosche was born in 1912, and he lived in a very authoritative family. his father basically was sort, for the first choice of his of his life his father was the one who determines everything he did. he was the one who pulled him out of school at the age of 14, as was customary at the time. he was the one who determined that he would become a waiter so that he could work in the family and.

he was the one who determined the schedule, whether he would work in the and/or possibly go to work in the fields or take care of the family life -- the family livestock. he was the one, the father, that determine that his older brother would be removed from his will because he was not as subordinate and did not follow the fathers order and would instead put blosche as he's a or. it was in the family and that blosche was exposed to much of the national socialist ideology that came about in this time. the father arranged for their party, and that's a party assemblies and also they would hear the radio transmit from germany, calling for the unification with the fatherland

of june -- i legitimate it was there he was also exposed to newspapers coming in from germany and he himself was a member of the nazi youth movement burning a gold medal for his participation. and it was only at the age of 27 for the first time that blosche moves away from his childhood scenery and goes out in that vicinity up to between this ss. and that is in december of 1939. two years later in 1941 he takes part in his first mass execution. and that mass execution is very clearly recorded in his memory, unlike the 20 or more mass executions in which he would take part, and hundreds of

individual killings. he would not remember almost anyone of those. but this first one was marked in his mind. he could remember the 10 or 12 soldier says which were walked up the forest. he remembers the bomb craters which served as the death pit. he remembered that one of these men, the soviets was not shot well and had he is what was called a mercy shot to finishes execution. this was a transformation for blosche. he was not a killer instinct in his initial setting. basically this was the moment where he shifted from treating humans as humans to an understanding from his point of view that a command is a command, and it is superior to human life. and in the summer of 1942,

blosche is just transformed and transferred to the warsaw ghetto. and there he becomes much more ingrained in this capacity of the killer. within the ghetto, one of his common activities was when his commander would order him, go out and make a racket. he would get on a rickshaw and ride down this ghetto street, and as he's riding, the jews were dispersed and because they know what is coming next. blosche would shoot his favorite prey which were pregnant women and children. and the jews report about this rickshaw coming down the street and the killings that can come and they do not know the name of this killer. they don't know the name of the ss fellow so they make name him,

properly, frankenstein. and what was most amazing for me when i was reading the documents of his interrogation in berlin, was what -- was one story which came up twice, three times in his recording. it was an incident that came after the ghetto was constructed. the jewish police was called in to the prison which was in the ghetto, and those jews who took part in assisting the not the, deporting the jews were in line do he was very clear what was going to happen next. blosche takes his jewish policemen and walks him over to the courtyard on the other side of those streets, and as he walks over there, a policeman who knows what's coming swerves

and punches him in the face and runs for his life. he is immediately shot dead. but the important point coming now, which is blosche falls back and his commander runs to him, yanks away his rifle, and scolds him. sends him back to the prison and ordered him not to take part in mass execution. blosche remembers this story 24 years later and repeats it two or three times. and i was wondering what was so significant for him in the story that basically my interpretation is that for the first time he is not fulfilling the command that his commander gave him, and his inverted moral perception of fulfilling the command as the

main goal, violating that is for him something that is more important than saving a person's life. basically a very strong expression of his inverted moral compass at this point. blosche is arrested in 1945 by the soviets. and after year of being transferred between different prisons in the soviet union, he's not identified as an ss and. he arrives in 1946 in the mine in czechoslovakia. this is 1946, and on his second day in the mine, he walked up the mind and he is very curious at what is around them. he peeks at a certain point into

a shaft. and what happened next is this. his whole face is just cop between the elevator floor and the mine floor come and his whole face is disfigured. he loses sight in one of his eyes. he has a very hard time swallowing. and for a year-long, surgeries. but this discrimination of his face did not stop him from becoming a family man. and in 1950, he was very. this was the montage of him before his disfigure ration. he marries her and they have three children, one from a previous marriage. she testifies in letters that she writes to the east german security service. years later she writes how

wonderful husband he was. how he cared for each and every ailment of their children. and reading the letters from the prison in berlin to his wife, i ran into a letter where he cautions her, please don't let our granddaughter to run around the village alone because there are too many cars and it might be dangerous for her. so he becomes -- he becomes a normal family member. not anyone who -- it's hard to say this -- is wicked within him. at least he becomes at this point back to normal life. in january of 1967, after being picked by the west german jewish community, the east german secret service arrests blosche and takes him into custody.

and on his second day in this investigation room, and again i saw this in berlin, he writes on the back of this famous photo, and the mission, this is literally on the back of the photo. he writes an admission that i am the person in the photograph who is standing with the helmet and with goggles on the helmet and with a weapon in combat position. this is a case where i am taking part in the deportation of jews out of the warsaw ghetto. blosche is put on trial in 1969. in a show trial. he deserved everything he got. and he was sentenced to death. he was executed. his body and belongings cremated and was dispersed in an unknown

location in east germany. so that is the story of josef blosche, but now i would like to turn to the story of franz konrad, who is the person who, in all probability, was the one who took this photo. franz konrad had a very different story. he was surely not destined to become a nazi initially. he was born in the austrian apps in 1905, and was a member of the social democrat party. he was even the treasurer of the local party and spied on the nazis. similar story to other cases. he was a person of the world. he played chess. he sang in a choir. he learned instruments. are going -- he worked in a co-op of food chain, and his

downfall began in 1932 when he was arrested by the austrian police for stealing 900 shillings from the food cooperative. and he was sentenced to three months in jail, and that was a point where the nazi party takes him. his attorney was probably the one who introduced him to the nazi party. and over three months that he was in jail, but not the party supported its family. it was the one who also offered him a job when he came out of prison as a road constructor. and at that point he joined the ss and becomes an administrative officer, and in his vocal ss in austria. he arrives in the ghetto after being on the eastern front. sorry about that. he arrives in together after being in the eastern front in

1942. and becomes in charge of the authority in the ghetto in charge of collecting the property left behind by the jews. you can see testimony for that right here on the right hand side of the photo. that is probably some type of property that was taken from businesses of jews and would be transferred into konrad's warehouses. within these warehouses, he had an amazing collection. he had a room with 200 grand pianos, anti-repost about this in 1945 when he is arrested by the americans. he has a room full of cars. he has a room full of -- he has

a room with 50,000 toys that he took from jewish children and was planning to send to german kids in the ukraine. and the jews in the ghetto named him the ghetto king because they believe that he himself collected for himself property that was worth, that he was richer than the reich fuhrer himself. he collected many things. and konrad is arrested. and for him of course the photo of the little boy, unlike blosche, for him he sees the valuables. the valuables that you don't the jews are carrying in their luggage, hiding in the body, or leaving behind in the apartments in which, or the bunkers where

they dwelled. and in 1945, the american cic, the predecessor of the cia, is tipped off that konrad has hitler's diaries. those diaries that don't exist. and the americans seeking high and low, and they do find him in the end. and instead of finding a pair of hitler's diaries, they find a pair of hitler's structures -- trousers. in the interrogation room the investigator turns to konrad and says, what were you planning to do with a pair, i should add, of shredded trousers and a suit of hitler's? konrad says, this pair of trousers in suits is from the

assassination attempt on the life of hitler in the summer of 1944. okay, what are you planning to do with them? he says, money. a typical konrad answer. he also is executed in march of 1952 in warsaw. and, finally, within the nazis, i will still talk about the jews, the third not see what i want to mention here is that of jurgen stroop, the notorious ss general. jurgen stroop was a veteran of world war i. here he is pictured with his colleagues in the department. i actually visited his home.

and he was a highly -- he would have loved to become an officer. the structures, the social structures of german society after world war i, he was unable to become an officer. his opportunity comes in 1932 when he joined the ss. and high like himmler becomes a close associate of him, pushing him up the ranks very quickly today, high ranking ss officer. out of april 17, 1943, hitler phones up jurgen stroop and orders him to warsaw, to oversee the liquidation of the ghetto. he arrives there and promises to wipe up the ghetto within three days. and as we all know, this took him over for weeks here and at the end of these four weeks, in

may of 1943, he submits his three copies of a secret report to the heinrich himmler and it would later get into the hands of iceland as well, a report entitled there are no more choose in warsaw ghetto. and within this, jurgen stroop has basically two goals. the first of them is to elevate his own status. this photo entitled the leader, shows jurgen stroop writer with two of his bodyguards holding rifles to his side, the cars surrounding him, the fire blazing in the background, and clearly he is standing with a very authoritative position. like the way this, on the right hand side right here.

this was clearly to mark him as a leader, especially in light of his failure to fulfill the eradication or liquidation of the ghetto within three days. that is one goal. the second goal is to degrade the jews to fit into the ideology which he strongly believed of the jews as being subhuman's. this photo entitled jewish rabbis, you can 30 c. the soil, those of the jews. you can clearly see the desecration, a sense of putting them down. in the same way, this photo also included in the report entitled humanity, shows a jew, and possibly someone with a deformed foot and an ax between the. i don't know what that acts is today, but clearly that is the

second goal, degrading the jews, showing them as subhuman. and that is, in fact, those two goals are also what he feels in this photo in his our entitled close to the ghetto by forster on the one hand it is an orderly evacuation of the jews. it shows his control of the scene of his forces. it shows also the contrast between the subhuman jews, the rats, the cockroaches in his view, versus a powerful german standing with a helmet on his head, rifle in his hand, the superior irony in raise versus the subhuman jews. jurgen stroop is arrested also by the americans, extradited to poland and placed on trial in

warsaw, together with konrad. while konrad was convicted and executed for only killing seven jews, jurgen stroop is convicted and executed for killing tens of thousands of jews. he didn't rise of a clemency letter to the leader, to the president of poland stating he never consciously did anything immoral. all he was caring about was his wife and family. and as i said, both were executed in march of 1952. in contradistinction, i also discussed the story of rivkah trapkovits. rivkah trapkovits has an amazing story. she was within the group, close to the group i should say, of the rebels in the ghetto, and

she is about 20 years old when this all takes place. she arrived to survive. she herself does not take weapons into her hands. she was in charge of managing the home. she reports being pulled out of the bunkers, and at that point the nazis taking photos repeatedly. and sense of the nazis were ordered not to take photos, it is very likely that she saw them taking photos. i do not know, however, whether she saw them take this photo, or any of the other photos that they took. and she herself, to the best of my knowledge, was not within any one of the photos. now, she is put on a train and she jumps off and righteously

survived. losing in the process her boyfriend of three or four years. she is heard but she is able to find shelter and to obtain polish identity cards. she is liberated in 1945, joins or takes part in the smuggling of the jews across european borders and to the land of israel. she herself marries, move to israel in the late 1940s, and gives birth to two boys. this one being here her eldest. and 23 or 24 years later in 1973, in any gym pictures -- in an egyptian ambush he is killed. a couple of years later she dies of anguish.

and finally i will mention the story of dr. nussbaum. dr. nussbaum has a very tragic story. dr. nussbaum was born in tel aviv in august 1935. and 1936 comes, and clashes erupt between local arabs and jews. and his parents make a decision to return back to poland. in retrospect of course, a fatal decision. and in the early 1940s, both his parents are murdered. his brothers harder. his grandparents are murdered. most of his relatives are murdered. as a seven year old, he remains alone. and aunt and uncle taking with

them and go into hiding where they hide through the revolt. but their money is dwindling, and polish polls are trying to extract money from them and my given him. and a rumor comes around that the germans are ranging for the safe haven in the place in a hotel -- in hotel polski outside the warsaw ghetto. the germans according to the story are planning to use jews with foreign papers as bargaining chips in return for german. and a new sponsor the site to go to hotel polski. in a hotel polski, they are listed, and july 13, 1943, the ss stormed a hotel. all the jews are brought down into the courtyard, and the

germans start calling out names. and they call out the name of tsvi nussbaum's uncle. he walks away and boards the truck. they call out the name of handedness bomb. and hannah news bomb walks away and boards the truck. and he is expected to hit his name but his name never comes. and at that point, says tsvi nussbaum, he steps forward and a not too raises his rifle at him, and he raises his hand. that is the moment, he says the photo was taken. this is a horrific story, of course. and it's a very tragic story. but, unfortunately, it's inaccurate because we know the report was on the table on june 2. and the photo was taken within the ghetto.

but, of course, this photo presents his to experience. and in that sense it is a true photo of history, of being arrested by the ss. he then sent to prison and is incarcerated for years, and then moving around different, where an american platoon labor rates him and the other jews. many of those hotel polski people were killed. most of them i should say. the group that was destined to the land of israel, palestine, was actually mostly liberated. let me and my talked with a reading out from a short poem. rivkah trapkovits in 1937 by yiddish poet in new york.

the poet turns to the nation of the world and says to them come and he talks about this little boy. and he says you have achieved what you have thought. the jewish boy is dead. the world is filled with powers of jewish bodies. but he doesn't stop by turning to the nations of the world. he also turns to the little boy and says to him the following words, nu, jewish boy, in killed i kiss your face. you are pure and kosher jewish eyes, a million years until the end of days, they demand an answer, your child cries. thank you. [applause] >> but i want to thank dan for a

really wonderful talk. and i hope that his short presentation gave you a sense of how magnificent -- prominent mention in your times and in your post and the book hasn't even been officially published yet. what would like to do for the next 15 or 20 minutes is engage you in asking questions and offering commentary on what you have just heard it so we would really like to hear what you think and ask questions. >> and if you could stand to please and identify yourself, that would be great. >> i'm curious what sort of an emotional experience during the period of time to investigating all of the aspects of the sort? >> it was an interesting question. i will mention one thing. it was most amazing to me to

follow my own -- being so close to the killings. you read about when you investigate this kind of material for five years, he read about one killing after another. and at a certain point you don't realize it, and i'm terrible to say this, but you are happy about finding, and that's a down emotional point. exactly the story unfortunate for me has no highs. there is no redemption for this story. i mention mundane things, but these are really important things. there are no highs in this story in my mind. not whatsoever.

>> hi. thank you very much. i just wanted to ask a more research oriented question. how did you determine that the second person you talked about was the photographer? >> okay. the famous photograph has blosche, personal bodyguard over there. now, if blosche is there, and by the way, another bodyguard of blosche is there, we should assume that stroop is there. that is almost obvious. we can see stroop by blosche in several photos. and since konrad was ordered all along the way, it is very likely that konrad was there. in addition i was a that konrad states very clearly that he took the photos, that he was the

person taking photos in the ghetto. he did not recollect this specific image. none of these nazis remember this image. it is him a normal scene for them. he can't recollect where this was taken. but for us it's iconic. it's very, very likely come and a few other researchers agree with me in poland that this was konrad. who took the photo. >> in your research, the question that goes through my mind is, is that little boy a loan? do you assume that his relatives are in that crowd? what could you find out? >> i have no answers for that. the only thing i know about this boy, the one and we think him is he is probably younger than 10 because he doesn't have a star.

i don't have any idea of this woman to his left of him is his mother or just someone else. i have no idea. i have no information. from the entire set of photos that i investigated i was able to tell you that i find high probability, or almost complete certainty, jewish images in only one photo. and only one photo of three women from the revolt. on the other hand, i can identify many of the germans in these photos. and that is the imbalance of holocaust photography. we must remember that most of the photographs that we see of the holocaust, a clear majority of them are from the perception of the nazis. and this is also a photo taken from an advantage point of nazis. this is a racist, and it's

initial interpretation a racist photo. that should be very clear. >> when did this start to become discovered? >> the question of how became iconic is something that i plan to address in an article that i'm writing, so this is work in progress as we say in academia. but i do have a few words to say about that. the photo was actually, to be more accurate the report was presented in the nuremberg trials by chief justice jackson your jackson, the american prosecutor. he aired a few of the photos. i'm not sure whether this one, i think was not aired there.

and that turned the album, got the album spotlights. and from there on, the jews -- the jewish survivors who saw the revolt at the time as the one important achievement, so to speak, against the nazis, took photos from there. and many of the iconic photos that we know from the holocaust come from that report. so that is the historical explanation, but i think there's some explanation within the photo. this is a sanitized version of the holocaust. there are no reports, no dead. the jews themselves are not as malnutrition as you would see in later photos. they look relatively safe, could come in comparison to what comes later. this is also beyond being a sanitized version, this is also a picture that touches on a

mother-a child's connection us and it was a mother and child, although we do not know that. and within that line of thought, there were primarily women and children. you barely see any jewish men here. so those are some of the notions i'm coming up with. there are others, but i will leave those for a later point when i publish an article about this. >> good evening. i arrived a little late when you are being introduced but i think those two points i would like to ask if i may. one is, am i right in assuming this isn't so much as a result of assuming of the resistance of the jews, because they are clearly -- clearing people out of houses were able to carry the packages. they have bags, and i'm assuming