>> another gutted 650. he came in third. we have documented all of this

stuff. who organized it? the mufti of jerusalem and the nazis. i'm talking about actual trench warfare. i spoke to a man here who said he was in the partisans. they fought against the part of sun's in yugoslavia, thousands of them. artillery brigade, paratroopers, infantry, this was not just a bunch of people robber rousing in the streets, this was not just a bunch of people on the radio. this was a group helping hitler wages for against humanity. it is very difficult when you talk about yugoslavia because you have surfs, catholics, some jews, muslims, bosnian muslims. the alliance changes by the minute, the hour, and it was a

murderous makes that we have seen today. the same part of the world. the truth is that the worst crimes of the holocaust were committed by the muslim catholic alliance has plans of the nazis in yugoslavia. eventually it lost the war, but the holocaust stopped in may of 1945, but then it continued in the middle east as all of the infrastructure that has been put to place by the arabs to make common cause with the nazis to destroy the jews now came into their own middle east countries, invaded israel and invaded not

to restore palestinian rights, not to restore the land, but to exterminate the jews. they even use the reference to gallegus con. he know, a phrase, and this race was invented in the 1920's, not the 1930's or '40's. palestine is our land. they would run up and down the streets and they would scream. it was actually a rhyme. here is the second half. palestine is our land, the jew is our god. this was not in 1945, but 1920. this was not 1939, this was 1920. this was a regular chance, and

i'm trying to give you the mindset, the roots of the arab masses alliance. and so all these guys whose names were hitler and eight of found common cause after world war two. in fat, some 2,000 nazis, prison guards, gestapo, as us migrated in to the middle east, in to egypt. we have their names for the sole purpose of waging war against israel with propaganda, boycotts of investments and sanctions with military maneuvers, wars, the independence war, the war of independence in 1948 and all the other wars. not seen masterminds, when i say not see i mean german the

masterminds were working behind the scenes and, indeed, in the front bring this to reality. now, what does this mean for us today? now, we have to look today. we see guys who say i will never recognize israel as a jewish faith. they can call themselves and the thing we want. this is a concept of we will never allow, we will never allow ourselves to coexist with jews in palestine. now, you may say, white and to mention this and that? had didn't mention about 99 percent of everything that's in the book. the book only mentioned 99 percent of everything because every chapter written the book could have been a book unto itself. perhaps a small bookshelf of a book. i did in devore to give clarity

to how it is from their perspective that arabs were able to form an alliance during the holocaust with the nazis. over 1400 years, how it played out during the war and how it continued after the war from the 20th-century. as you know, the 21st century is owned by the 20th century. why did it happen? no oil, no barack, no british petroleum, no need for middle east wars. it was oil. no one ever went to mesopotamia because they enjoyed the sand. it was what was underneath the sand that brought them. that is what the arabs and the

muslims of that world reviled. not just the muslims and palestine, not just in iraq, but also yugoslavia, india, london, except for. what is the message? the messages that we want to use this information as a truth and reconciliation so that we can understand how we got here. to not miss use my information to recreate a new legacy of hate, but use it to confront the legacy of hate so that we can move forward with all people in the middle east to create a future of peace. the germans and the jews have reconciled. never forget, but their

coexisting as allies. that began, believe me, in june of 1945, but not before. it is possible. it is difficult. it is difficult when it is not 13 years as it was with the third reich, the 1400 years. with this information i hope to our new with what you need to understand our presence, understand our past. thank you. [applause] and now will take questions. first and i'm going to take some remote questions which should be given to us in advance by various people around the country and overseas. the first question -- and then i'll take questions from the audience. how much time do i have? as much as of want. okay. puckett. here is a question from a guy called mitch at the university of miami who studies middle east

history. he talks about the fact that the book documents -- which i did not mention, that the jews were expelled from arab land. about a million jews. a million jews after world war two were expelled from german -- from air and land and to israel. all the money was taken. they emulated the iceland program. it says, do i support current deficits of israel's foreign ministry to include in future peace talks when addressing the issue of refugees 800-900000 jews of arab land. staying out of contemporary affairs of a tell you that at the time this occurred a half a century ago israeli foreign ministry said we will have to keep this if this progression of jews from morocco, libya, iraq,

all these different countries in our balancing of peace, justice, and we enfranchisement in the middle east, as well. there is no question there are people who work every day to argue for their return property. i know that leo here is looking for the return of their property in poland, czechoslovakia, germany, russia. there are many jews in the arab world who are left penniless. what do i mean by penniless? it took them out, pulled the rings out of their years, the bracelets from their arms and did everything possible to leave them penniless. why? because the arabs thought we don't have the manpower to kill

all the jews, and we don't wish to know. they did have concentration camps in north africa. don't have the manpower to do that. but we will do is create a demographic, fled a million jews into israel. they will know what to do. they'll be on the beach, and israel will collapse. that did not occur. arabs were kept in refugee camps for decades. the issues were absorbed into israeli society immediately, but as you all know, who is running the israeli government today? one way or the other in many instances jews who came from arab countries. so they were not marginalize, there were not left to die on the sand. so this is a historic truth. you must to acknowledge what happened to a million jews. in the middle class and the upper class issue in the

establishment of our class were expelled. a second question comes from miami, submitted by e-mail. let's see. it talks about in light of what you have discovered about the muslim catholic alliance that murdered tens and tens of jews and serbians and many muslims died at their hands, how did this relate to our understanding of recent international offense involving kosovo? well, i can't tell you how complicated yugoslavia is. i can tell you how many partial countries, temporary countries,

territories, kosovo, bosnia, albania, they all came and went. the differing alliance to kill each other. the catholics at one point decided that all of the muslims were going to be on larry catholics or honoraria croatians. yes. we should always understand, always understand that whenever we have today did not appear suddenly. it is a legacy. here is a question, and this comes from lester frank, lester m. frank from los angeles. how does any of this relate to the so-called boycott of investment and sanctions? we hear about this all the time. what are the historical roots of this movement? well, you hear about this boycott is real thing. when did this start? the started january 30th of

1933, actually april of 1933 when the went to the arab consulate and said, we are ready to join the nazi boycott against the jews. from then it percolated as a continuous effort to deny a identification to, legitimacy to come and commerce with the jews in palestine. got so bad that in the latter 30's as a jew -- as an arab attacks the tickets you across town, that arab taxi driver could be killed. so the movement is absolutely -- the one we see today is as much a legacy of the arab-nazi alliance as anything else that i have discussed. and now you have one. here is a question from london. the question is was it

premeditated or spontaneous? this is from when julius. was it premeditated? the answer is yes, it was absolutely premeditated. it did not work out the way they wanted to. they did not exterminate all the jews in the concentration camps or gas chambers. they did the next best thing and killed every two they could get their hands on and kill them as viciously as human the possible. and now i will take questions from here. there is a mike year. let's go with this woman first. everybody hear me okay. >> this extraordinary panorama of the arab muslim not see alliance. and for the rest of the continuity of this issue. my question is simply, very

simple. i have always heard that there were instrumental in these events, and of what love it if you did give us a few more details about the persona of this man. >> by the british. in to make him a bigger the making grand. he was put into power for the sole purpose of keeping the arabs of palestine and some kind of tranquility. the reason for that was there were trying to build at that time and altman did did build a pipeline from iraq to bring all the british petroleum oil to the allies and western world. now, british petroleum at that time was called and the persian and many other names. so the mufti of jerusalem had a shadow government.

he was given virtual autonomy. he was on the british peril. he had his own embassy, his own infrastructure. he had control over the western wall. he had control. he was a huge agitator, and it was typical for him to speak in front of the microphone and say i want everybody to engage in any kind of violence. then he would say kill the jews, kill them where they are. in other words, speaking with two different voices. one for the western world and one for the arab world. this is a tradition that goes back. and we have given all of this information in the diplomatic cables, the arabic cables. we tried our artists for both the air communication at the time. so devious, part and parcel at

the highest level with the hitler regime, he met with hitler in his office. he was on the hill apparel. he was given -- he was elevated by heller. and i say he was with hitler, i don't mean that he was just in a dark shadow. the mufti of jerusalem went to concentration camps. he went to the houses. he went to the place where all the concentration camps were organized. he went, we believe, to a subset of auschwitz. whenever they tried to rescue jews the mufti of jerusalem would send irrepressible letters to the hon gary and officials, the polish officials saying don't send the jews to palestine, send them to poland.

now, if you think that auschwitz in 1941 -- excuse me, 1942, 1943, let me correct you. a little girl in attic confirms to her diary that jews are being gassed in poland. the bbc was broadcasting this, and i have reproduced the exact language of a book published by the afl-cio worldwide. numerous languages including the united states explained that auschwitz is a death camp where they put gas in the cellar. this was very well known. and so what he said, send them to poland, he knew what he was doing. thank you very much. i hope i answered the question. the second question, go ahead. >> what now? the know, you hinted before.

who do return to? in europe when we saw them coming, they were coming, i saw them personally in warsaw with talking cups. there was a whole regiment. they were coming, moving forward. we had our government, american government sending bombs on the serbians. the serbians. >> let me try to answer the question. >> yes. yes, as i have explained, the muslim forces of the third reich who were not just independent militia, there were ss units dispatched all over europe at

various nations. although there were mainly centralized in yugoslavia. there were trained in france. your question is, you know about this from personal experience. what do we do now? that question will not be answered by me. that question will be answered by everyone who is here. i have given you the history of how we got to this. i will not talk about 21st century policy, but a 21st century policy which is attempting justice must look back on the true facts of history. there were many -- there is enough bloodletting in yugoslavia to write volumes and volumes. unfortunately what our government does now in the

middle east in yugoslavia is up to the sense of justice and history. you will decide what that is. thank you very much. excuse me, you said i hope i addressed that in this book and conversation. now i'm going to take one question from the side. >> you say that the mystique was on the british payroll. >> yes. getting something like 60,000 pounds a year on the british peril. when he left the thrift peril. prior to of world war two. a question from this gentleman here. with justice for jews from arab countries. what is your question. >> i had a personal question.

the u.s. holocaust, as we both know, was not very keen to discuss this topic five years ago. you tell me that over the last few years they are still not talking about this topic, or have they addressed it? >> okay. the question is that the u.s. holocaust museum consciously obstructing information about this topic. the answer is, of course, yes. many people in this organization know how difficult it has been to get management of the museum to be truthful and cooperative on many issues. i believe it was five years ago that there was an attempt to get a message -- recognition. they were involved. the holocaust museum put a stop to it by sending out the mouse to all the other holocaust museum's because their narrative was that the holocaust

experience, the hitler war against the jews was a european experience. i'm sure you all know. that does not mean that just the jews were not destroyed. of course jewish free cities, they are not horrible concentration camps in the north of africa. i always have to say that many jews who survived the holocaust and north africa did so because arab, muslims and north africa. some of them. but that does not mean that there were not multitudes, there were not multitudes of arabs. the holocaust was instructed. that move in the last several

years, they have performed, made progress. there is now a page on their website. they are putting in information. i believe -- what was your involvement in pressuring the museum to come clean? >> at the time of was executive director of the international council, and i have asked peter black who was, i don't know if he still is, the chief historian. no relation. >> i went to the museum and ask him some questions. he denied any responsibility of the multi and the nazis and north africa which is just not true. >> what happened there after? this movement. >> we sent a press release calling for his firing. refuse to speak with us about the topic. he basically shut the door. you know, the holocaust museum

mission statement is about the shell law in europe. did not mention anything in north africa. >> okay. and by the way, if anyone in congress to accept your cost? >> came with the international synagogue and basically said on stage along with rabbi weiss that he worked to cut the funding to the holocaust museum unless they spoke about this topic. >> the holocaust museum has made strides. but just so you understand all my research at the holocaust museum was blocked. in the hellinger has denied me the rights to the institution in the world that provides me the right to speak to the experts. the yugoslavian experts. i am very sad about it. i know that they refuse to the people in this room, the survivors in this from the right to their own records.

leo rector here has been part of this. our job here is to once again hope that you can move forward professionally with the holocaust museum to broaden their point of view and allow -- stop there confrontation. give them their record. open up their files and experts to anyone, not just me, but anyone who wishes to speak to an expert to rid a very complicated file. zeltiq your question. >> another question. >> we don't want. >> isn't it ironic, the problem with the arabs. >> excuse me. i'm sorry. that is not something i'm going to address. it does not have a place in this conversation. i'm only talking about the

holocaust. i have a question. okay. please. pawned 20th century only. go ahead. >> when you refer to the nazi missionary operating after the official disintegration of the holocaust to further the arab movement against the jews, are you referencing, my understanding that there was a werewolf? >> well, you can call them the burbles, you can call them the secret foxes, the vampires, whenever you want, but they were in official positions, not unofficial positions, prime the propaganda movement and the military coordination. hitler or eight of four things of that nature. this generation of not cease transferred into the arab world

to create the middle east that we know today. that is in this book. a question from this side. >> to draw a very clear historically and of the jew hatred in the middle eastern world, but you also moved to some positive behaviours and protection of jews. i'm wondering if you can elaborate on that so that we can use this maybe also as a foundation for future hope. >> sure. i'm happy to. anyone who wants to say that it is all arab or on moslem, misinterpreting what i'm saying. i am talking. remember, no one hesitates to document with the what germans did in round or two. every german, no. every smack know. was it -- let me tell you something. most french jews today are alive because of frenchmen in france

help save them. that is true. now, what can we use today? well, people say, is there no hope? how do you defeat 1400 years of hatred? there is a peace treaty with jordan, a peace treaty with egypt. this is called coexistence, and coexistence can lead to peace. when you come out of here find a reason to amplify what happened in the 20th century. find a reason to move forward and handshake and brotherhood with arabs and muslims and look back on the history as they have in south africa, yugoslavia, rwanda. move forward and say, now, what can we do? so use the president.

[inaudible] >> the airbrushing depended upon the decades, the century, the territory, ultimately massacred the jews and elevated them to believe mobility. i tried to give the nuances of that in the book. there is a huge legacy. between jews and arabs. i also have to give the context. i mean you know what we can say, black people in this country, rose, became great sports stars, but they came but in the concept of the civil rights movement, within the concept of being surprised, being subjected to the cruelest of jim crow laws and things of that nature.

yes, plenty of money, sure. did they have to fight three times as hard to get there, yes, they did. so yes, there were good relations. i'm happy to emphasize good relations. even to read the book makes this clear. many times a jewish family was saved by an arab. the extermination of self, the reason it did not go through, 2,000 arabs murdered hundreds of jews. but there were also a few key arabs who save them from becoming total extermination. they are named and must be recognized. not marginalize. how much time do i have left? abcafifteen. okay. >> inviting to speak on this issue. >> okay. okay. the answer is -- okay.

the answer is that to about 300 events a year. i am doing it many events on this topic at universities. i will be -- i have a website called edward black dot com. my schedule is open. i'm not hiding from anyone. you can get to my book tour. you will see i have 15 events in south florida. i've got five or to an offense in san francisco bay. january and february. i speak as often as possible, but i have to tell you something, there are many people who don't want this. and not all -- some people within the jewish community itself to not want this message. my challenge is to bring this history out, without politics, without polemics.

use it as a basis for fact and moving forward in brotherhood with our neighbor. that is a way. yes. >> in my work with you helping research the book i came to some conclusions on my own. a lot of what went on in the 20th century, a lot of the negotiations in the peace process and the problems the jews have around the world, a lot of people say i'm not anti-jewish, anti-israel. clearly out lines that the nazis were actually anti-jewish. they changed the tone in the end. they just wanted to get there. what to you think -- safe to people who try to differentiate? in the scheme of things when you

look at the reasons the to in this book and other books. it becomes only about one thing and one thing only. >> well, you are correct. our research efforts. when i say you're in the research effort, you were there hour to hour, minute to minute. we constantly struggled to document as fairly as we could from all sides. careful not to leaving anything out. the answer is it is anti-jewish, not. the jews are in their homeland. so the vocabulary used. but decades before there was a state of israel from 1948 and 1920 and 1921, decades before that, palestine is our land. the issue is our god.

said this did not involve a sudden appearance of a reactive patron. i saw a guy come out. he was in charge of a boycott. he said, look, jews and arabs have always lived in peace in palestine. not a day, not a day, not an hour. if you find what, if anyone find ones, if anyone finds one, let me know. the jews and arabs live in peace in palestine. either they were before 1898 or they were reviled after 1898. the zionist cause. robert, the idea that jews could not sit down and the long list kept alive to an elevated, and became a cause for the whole muslim world for years and years and even today, even today there are efforts to deny did choose

the right to claim their religious place based on the information i've given you. one more question. time for one more? a question from this nine year. were going from left to right. okay. >> it is never emphasized. the arabs to did not discover. they didn't discover pill. actually, they were searching for water. >> to discover the of? have written many books on oil and of got another book coming out next month, british petroleum. i can tell you, oil is older than civilization. the first oral was being used by cave men in south africa 60,000 years ago. there was oil in the 1800's and the middle east.

the expiration, the industrial oil, the oil that you know about, this was discovered by the british. the first one in iraq, we have pictures of that. in my next book. i explained. so, whether or not the arabs discovered the oil it only reinforces their view that their land was given to someone else to bring and non-islamic presence into the country. this only intensifies the g. hatch, religion and geoid. born from 1920's. that is in the book, too. september 11th, 1920, and it was a reaction to jews in palestine and the reaction from while companies.

one more question. i'll take one more question. we are waiting. don't add a statement. add a question. >> you said before. you have an office near hitler. there was a problem. they made him a general, about to make him a general. they could not make him a general because he was a semite. the problem, he was not an arab, but a turk. therefore it was impossible. >> what is your question. >> i'm making a statement. >> okay. fine. do we have time for one more question? here is a gentleman. 20th-century pleas. >> you mentioned -- >> what is your name? the scope.

you mentioned how ron was changed from persia to iran and how it has moved from indigenous ties to the nazi party in trying to appeal. but how many people in tehran or worldwide acknowledge the roots of this name change and what other factors contribute to it? >> the name iran, when i first brought this out some years ago in some articles of was subjected to a massive intimidation campaign, which means nothing. and the name is an ancient name that goes back thousands of years. the swastika is actually an iranian or persian symbol. i'm talking about -- exactly,

but it came down. puckett. now, some one in the 19th century there was -- of like to make it clear that in the book we indicate that their roots of the swastika. you see it. around the 19th century there was a mixup of the word, and the scandinavian stock that they were the actual. this allowed this fake aryan race call to to exist which by the rockefeller foundation and the carnegie institution and henry ford to the concept which i also wrote a book on. does the world recognize this? no. to you recognize it?

yes. another question. yes, ma'am. just a second. >> any chance to you remember? croatia, having. >> all right. the woman says to a remember the name of the guy in croatia who had a basket of eyeballs in his office? that is referred to on pages 327 and 335, and i don't want to take the time to read it here, but we have his name. we have excerpts of the archive. there were 40 pounds of eyeballs. and now i am out of time. i will take just one more question. is anybody have another

question? yes, ma'am. >> predominant name was adolf and hitler. >> both times. >> what happened to those names connected they disappear? it off junior? >> okay. what happens to all the arabs and moslems to decided to name they're kids a of? book, most of them thought that this is not the best and to have in the postwar time. they cast of those names. anyone can change the name like that. most of them dead, but some of them didn't. the ones that did, you can find, i will read to you if i have a moment, a very unfortunate letter. this is an imaginary letter written in to adolf hitler after

he died. in this letter goes as follows. this is deer adolf hitler to my waist that you had triumphed. i have the exact text year. averaged you had triumphed. you are the greatest thing that ever happened. monday you will come back. i wish the arab world would have a hitler to. in egyptian newspaper. the man who wrote that letter goes was on more sadat. i have pictures of on or sadat coming to jerusalem. this time is covered with swastikas. anyway, thank you very much with isn't uncommon. thank you. >> edwin black is the author of several books including ibm and the holocaust and internal combustion, how corporations and governments predicted and the

real the alternative. to find out more visages website. >> we are here with roger kimball, the publisher. can you tell us what is coming up? >> we have a lot of things coming up. one thing, a new initiative for us over the last year-and-a-half, either punchy pamphlets available in print and online. you can get them for your ipad, kendall, or other devices. six of 7,000 words about all of the important issues of the day whether its public-sector unions or immigrations, health care, national sovereignty. a great one for us on how the current administration is draining away national poverty is a good one. we have many really good books coming up. one n1, this title here.

walter olson at the cato institute. it will tell you everything you should know and why you should be afraid. their training america's future leaders. it is a very dubious proposition, i think. we have a bunch of great things coming up. new york times best-seller last year, the grand jihad by and the mccarthy. just out, freedom and risk. james buckley, senator james buckley. we have a bunch of great, great titles coming out. stop by our website and see what you're missing. >> one more thing, can you tell us a little bit about why you decided to start the pamphlet series? >> yes. i saw in 2008, that election cycle, the internet has become a central part of the metabolism of political debate.

blogs and so on. absolutely essential to the way the messages were getting out. people were getting educated. they had a couple of liabilities. one was they were very ephemeral. i've read about myself. i know you can get hundreds of thousands of hits, thousands of commons. seventeen hours later it's gone. they have moved on to the next bank. so i want something that has the immediacy of a blog, the internet. step back a little bit. so i thought of the 18th century by common-sense. you had people commenting in a very forthright way club matters of great public moments, things that were on everybody's mind. these days, of course, it's things like health care and natural to of national sovereignty, the public-sector unions. but to do so in such a way that you could intervene in the debate and not really comment on it. that is what we do.

retract to mary authors of subjects in such a way that it can be written quickly by idealists. you get them out in a couple of weeks. the idea, there we are on the case. so they have been very successful. at think we have had steve more from the "wall street journal" on the economy. election fraud. as i said, national sovereignty. pet supply on health care. these are top people writing about the critical issues of the moment. i think they're making a difference. >> this tuesday, fed uri 23rd visit booktv.org at 7:00 p.m. to watch live on line from politics and prose bookstore discussing his book. psst simply go to booktv.org and click on the watch button under the offense information in the feature program section of the page. also, follow us on twitter for

up-to-the-minute schedule updates on future live on-line programming throughout each week. >> hi, mr. gingrich. can you tell us a little bit about your latest release and lead inexorably project might be? >> the latest thing we did is a foe of a book on ronald reagan. this started from the movie. came up with the area of doing the book in honor of this hundredth birthday. so we were excited to bring it out. the rat the reagan library for the hundredth birthday. actually lasted three and a half hours. so we were thrilled. all lot of interest in it because of the renewed interest in president reagan. >> what comes next for you riding was? >> well, a book out this summer on american exceptional as some. don't have a title for it yet. looking for to both of those.

>> well, february 16th of this year the borders bookstore group declared bankruptcy. joining us now on book tv to discuss -- discuss the impact of this bankruptcy is cheryl linemen. how did borders kit to the point of declaring bankruptcy? >> well, i think it has been a long time coming. certainly the last three years in particular has quarter after quarter borders has been losing money. they have also gone through a number of management changes, especially at the top. they have gone through something like four ceos in the past four years. but the story can also update back to the beginning of the 21st century, suppose. things like their website in 2001. they did not requirement until 2008. there he book strategy was never at the same level as the candle

or bonds and noble. just always kind of seemed that they were operating a few steps behind every other retailer. combining all of the additional factors that have been impacting in combination with various managerial mismanagement, it really didn't come as a particular surprise that borders declared chapter 11. >> you mentioned the amazon connection. what exactly did borders do with amazon and in your view what kind of mistake was that? >> well, to reiterate back in 2001 when borders had its own website instead of running around the commerce selling goods directly day tasks that amazon. essentially there were giving that revenue to their competitor in order to essentially make certain things easier, but in doing that it was something of a

devil's bargain because they did not essentially on their own on-line property. by the time that they changed direction they had a ceo who said this is not an idea. so reclaiming it in 2008. by then everyone had already been introduced to the candle. already in the works. it would not be introduced until 2009. so borders to develop its own e-book strategy in selling some additional the readers. they just were never able to catch up in terms of appropriate market share. >> so what happens to the borders e-book reader? >> well, in the e-books that have been bought through borders are perfectly safe. it is also interesting that there is a partner and australia which incidently franchises the borders name for various bookstores. they have also declared

bankruptcy over there. so, i am hopeful that the assertions are, indeed, cutter, but i think it would be interesting to see if, in fact, the-books that people bought are, indeed, safe and people can reclaim them and read them. >> borders has about 6742 big box stores. how many of the closing? >> they are closing 200. they going out of business sales are, and fat, starting tomorrow. i believe the liquidation sales will be between 20 and 40 percent of. those are already going to be in the works. they have actually already, i believe, started shutting down the cafes. it will be very apparent walking in to those 200 stores that have been designated for closure. you will see the going out of business sale sign and be able to get the books, cds, dvds, and other appropriate merchandise.

>> why is it that pines and noble has been able to maintain its big box strategy? is it all about the books? >> i don't believe it is all about the books. it may come down to this, which is barnes and noble certainly most recently are one of the top by people who felt he books more than anything else with respect to borders essentially because it has been such a tremendous term of management, people from outside companies who have had experience in general retell him a not have realized that their experience did not necessarily translate into what is appropriate for the book business. the book business is very quirky. it has not always been the best fit with respect to the public companies in particular need. for example, expecting them to be operating at higher and higher profits, on a very tight margin. 1 percent is about average. you're likely to get up to 3%.

as a result this uncomfortable fit operated by people who weren't as serious without the book business works, already adding to borders troubles. >> when you look at the bricks and mortar business of booksellers what to you see in the future? >> it is interesting you say that. i am starting to believe more and more that we may be witnessing the natural and of the bookstore business. essentially it started in the late 80's and early 90's when borders expanded, barnes and noble expanded. park your car and go off. the part of been greater experience. and i'd to wonder.

perhaps you will see a greater preponderant of smaller, independent stores. a number of them have opened research me they face many of the pressures that have been debated and bantered about over the last decade. but the ones that have a certain business acumen or really try to engaged within their community and develop even a small strategy, they seem to have the best chance for survival. you will hopefully see more of those. the actress system is going to change. will certainly impact how publishers, perhaps, sign up and what sort of advances they're pain and what books will be most visible. but to say that the shrinking of the chain bookstore business means that the book industry is dead is a connection i would be

deeply uncomfortable in making because there are too many signs that are pointing toward a more optimistic waters. >> to are some of borders biggest creditors? what have they said? >> well, on the unsecured creditors' side the biggest one is the penguin group which i believe is 041 million. after that most of the major big six publishers, for example, simon schuster, 33 million. random house is of somewhere around the mid 30 million range. macmillan and so on and so forth. i believe the only publisher that has issued a statement is penguin. others have stayed mom with respect to what is happening. and, of course, the largest secured creditors which are bank of america, a credit agreement still owed almost 200 million. i believe ge capital is also owed about 50 million off of there on the agreement as well.

they have to pay off the banks, the biggest publishers, and of course trying to get whatever they can as well as additional creditors. so, all told i believe borders those about 300 or so million to vendors. they still have to figure out how they're going to get paid. >> in your view can borders emerge from bankruptcy? this remaining stock of stores become a profitable company? >> i think it would be wonderful to see them and merge in a smaller arena as a more profitable company. i also believe that many of the factors that have enabled them to go into bankruptcy may not be so kind and forgiving. to my mind they are a little too much concordance with what happened when they went into chapter 11 administration in late 2008 and went through the courts are realizing they did not have inappropriate business plan and eventually went into

chapter seven. numerous reports have indicated that publishers are not terribly happy with what border seems to have in mind. their top priority, for example, seems to be highlighting the borders award plus card. as customers come in and know that this company is in trouble, do they really want to redeem their borders card or sign up for a but the company that they may feel does not have a feature? so i think unless borders have a release sent rock-solid strategy they may suffer the same fate as circuit silly -- circus city. at the same time we are going to know for several months. >> the news editor of publishers marketplace. thank you for joining us. >> thank you so much for having me. >> c-span book abraham lincoln, great american historians and our 16th president gives a unique contemporary perspective from his early years as a springfield lawyer to his

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