teachers 20 years ago, and they went in with the same level of commitment and idealism as the corps members we're placing today. and i think it would be fair to say they hit the walls. they saw all these kids bring their social challenges into their classrooms and, you know, it became a downward spiral, right? like it's down right impossible. what happened was a few of our people rose above it all. like persevered and figured out how to change things. like how to actually teach successfully. how to create the islands of excellence. and they did it by teaching differently. i mean, we didn't know how to tell our people to teach. now we can say, okay, here's what it takes, you know? it takes being very clear about what vision you're working toward. like where are we going to be by the end of the year? what are you going to accomplish with your kids this year that's going to make a meaningful difference in their lives? once you figured that out, then you spend half your time getting

the kids, the kids' families, their influencers, to believe that's important in their lives. and if they work harder than they've ever worked before they can get there. .. some of those people went off and said, this is not sustainable. that is another thing i agree with. in the that super heroes sick and he's that way. they can probably sustain it. it is just that there are only so many of those people who are that , i mean, it is humbling to

spend time with them. they went off and started schools that actually make it much more sustainable and much easier to teach success. >> it is like -- i mean, forgive me for obsessing about your personal journey, but it is like you have gone on this road. it starts with a noble ambition, which is kind of an elitist ambition. let's bring the best and brightest into this neglected corner of the world. now it's somewhat like a marxist and the best sense of that word. i'm not criticizing you read all. i will say you are not a total marxist because when we were back there and ask you to test up the microphone by using the word peak at that you were going to sippy to picks a pumpkin. >> branson. i was talking to him. so but, yeah, no, honestly this has been an unbelievable journey

and just and eliminating one. it is just, i am learning from our people and others. working alongside communities, and that is wrong wanted to write this book. such a mystifying experience. you know conceptually of course kids and low-income communities have full potential and an excellent education, but now we know really it is within our reach to do this, and it's not -- there's nothing magic about it. there's nothing out of reach, but there is also nothing easy. it takes the same kind of thing, you know, discipline and that it takes to obtain a really ambitious outcomes. that is why i say the question is, to believe this is a crisis? if we do in me to approach it in the same way that we would approach any great crisis that we know we can solve. that is what i fear we are not doing. >> to switch gears for a moment,

i don't think we have much more time, 40, how many, thousand applicants this year for -- >> 47,000. >> for how many positions? >> well, it depends what happens to our federal funding, but if all goes well 5300. >> so you are as selective as princeton at this point. >> although, i don't view this as elitist. >> yeah. establishing that. [laughter] but my point is -- how many -- ten years ago, for example, what would those two numbers of being? >> we had 4,000 applicants. i'm guessing probably brought in five or 600. >> and part of that the dramatic increase in your popularity has to do with this movement of catching fire. part of it also has to do with the economy.

am i right? you are beneficiaries -- >> you know, honestly, what people don't know because added a view it as an outpouring of idealism or from the tenor ration or they view it as the economy. we are out there building a movement. every year we take some of our most successful teachers. we probably have about 70 record directors who each have, you know, partners in crime who are recent college graduates. we give them three or four campuses and say go find not just anyone, but the people you believe have a ability necessary to be transformational teachers and have real positions of influence long-term. they sit down one-on-one. we probably met with 40,000. people who are going to law school and met school and all sorts of other things or who at this point we are making lots

more people who are interested in teaching because of before and what not, but we are completely changing their minds at these meetings. recruitment directors sit down and share personal experiences. they say, you know, i think about a guy who might just happened to spend the day with who is now running our boston office to basically says, look, i was placed in phoenix, started teaching fourth grade. my kids came into my room at the second grade level. i fell in love with my kids. you know, a couple years of progress in the first year. actually, the first grade level. i could teach them again. they made two more years of progress. i realize first of all, can you think of anything that would give you a bigger responsibility and digger -- bigger and secondly, this is something our generation can take on and fixed, but the part of a group

of people who will fix that problem. so i actually think -- i mean, the economy was a great in a black. as they ran around and told everyone, the silver lining in this economic environment is that it has given the true leaders real license to think more broadly about their futures. the most precious resource is talent. we have to add. we have a certain way. the foundations were already there. >> the same thing we were talking about with katrina to rebuild the structure. >> ready to take advantage of the crisis and make it into an opportunity. >> it's funny. the last time that this happened in this country was during the depression. so it is a well-documented fact. the contraction of the private economy cause an awful lot of people to go into the public school system.

the generation that emerged from schools in the depression which was one of the most successful -- well educated generations we have with the unintended beneficiaries of this economic calamity, which, you know, i hate to heart. there is a fascinating caveat. we spend so much time bemoaning our misfortune, whether it is a hurricane war and economic hard time that we forget. an incredibly fertile time frame. >> yes. at think it's a compelling point. and we have lots of crises that we take it vantage of to solve the tour crisis. >> a terrible thing to waste. i don't know. i don't know how -- where is paul? the spa want to ask nasty questions? terry is. now. i think i -- why don't you come

and make -- >> my question. i have one question. you will see it and you can tell that is written by me. i am curious. how many alumni is are in the program? pretty amazing. first question. was there a time when american education was not in crisis? you can say yes or no if you want. >> no. i think we have had this issue -- i mean, historical knowledge is limited myself. i'm sure we have had these issues forever. i think we have been in denial about this particular issue that we are working to address. i think 20 years ago a lot of

people were in denial about the various existence of what we call today educational inequity. >> security officers and police in the hallways, less and less recess time, school menus that require a law degree to decipher with row upon row, longer school days. why would a child, to you think, want to go to school? >> you know, the kids -- i think about the schools as i talk about these transformations schools. kids are dying to be in school. first of all, the principles, teachers, schools love their kids. they build such a community among them. the kids know that they are going to work incredibly hard, but there is a huge payoff. so i don't know that there is a place they would rather be.

>> lots and lots of questions from alumni of the organization. being an alarm i am completely on board with the belief that all students can learn. however early the school year the new york times covered a study that pointed to statistics showing that when stripped of all society and economic factors african-american boys are underperforming when compared to their female african american pairs as well as other non black students. what are you and tsa thoughts on this. what to you think by the ways to shift education focus to address these statistics? >> meaning even outside of the context of low income communities? and i understand. you know, i feel like it will

take me out of, you know, i think about my own kids who go to public schools up here. a very diverse. not as economically disadvantaged with their kids from all socioeconomic backgrounds, racial backgrounds. honestly, i think the puzzle of how to make that work for all kids is very different from the puzzle of making the schools i have been talking about work. i am hesitant. i think what we need to understand is where the schools out there are that are working for african-american kids across all socioeconomic backgrounds. let's find out. there are schools. i'm sure there are schools. let's find out, even if it is just one, what are they doing differently? i think therein lies the keys to unlocking the answer to that question. >> by the way, you can jump in an ever you want. any of these questions, you have

comments. for instance, is there a conflagration to expanding teacher training and supporting administration? >> no. we are going to stay focused on our core mission of channeling a lot of talent and energy in this direction, but we do, you know, have a whole priority around accelerating the of our alumni in ways that are strategic for the more broad under reform movement. we thing supporting them may become principals, one huge in four and focus among others. helping support them to run for elective office and start advocacy organizations and social enterprises are others. we partner with others to do those. we partner with the fed, charges school management organization, the districts, universities, or other programs to set our people up with streamlined past school.

>> you bring up joel klein quite a lot, quite often, and you seem to admire him. what do you think of his successor? >> i think it is too early to tell. at think that her commitment -- i mean, she is clearly committed for the right reasons. you know, we will see what happens. [laughter] i think we should reach a point where when we are trying to figure out who should be the superintendent of our nation's largest school system or newark new jersey for that matter in the midst of a superintendent search or atlanta or may be sent to the chicago. some of the best jobs on the planet, they should be. we should be considering slates

of people who have all the foundational experience is necessary to do that job. people who taught in transformational ways, ran transformational schools, supported of the transformational schools. can you imagine ge, much talked-about for see a selection just stepping back and deciding that someone who has not even worked in corporate america should be the ceo? we would never do it. again, this is why i say sometimes i wonder, you know, if we think this is a true crisis. you know, we can't blame the mayor because the fact is we don't have the people pipelines. that is what we need. the longer we stayed off the development of true people development systems the longer we have to try random things and pray that their work which is pretty much where we are at the

moment. >> strive toward excellence. the key competencies of reading, writing, mathematics extra. they do so at the expense of the arts and physical education. do you believe the subjects are necessarily a part of an educational system? if so, how. >> i think -- i mean, i think about what i want for my own kids. i think that is why all kids should have access to the art and physical at and all sorts of other enrichment opportunities. i think, again, go visit if you have not already schools that are actually not only getting good test results, but really trying to set their kids up to be on a level playing field with kids in communities where parents are giving them.

and i think absolutely we need to -- i think we need the whole picture. >> when you come back to the new york public library in 20 years from now what difference to you think we would find in the educational system? >> you know, i think it is so hard to predict. i think about the fact that, you know, even four years ago if we had come together and you had said the most impossible to move school systems in the country, i would have said new orleans and washington d.c. to think that the two of the fastest improving, i think things are moving really quickly. the snowball is moving down the hill. so i think it will be easy to underestimate the progress that we can make in 20 years. what i'm hoping is in the way that we have growing numbers, hundreds of incredibly if high

performing schools that we could never have imagined, even 12 years ago, i hope we have proof points that the old system. and i think once we -- i think once we've you the proof that this is possible i do. i mean, we can talk about tipping points. we are going to get to the tipping point where people realize that we can completely do this. one thing leads to another and hopefully we are doing all the right things. i think it is within our reach. we should see in an aggregate sense the achievement gap closing in big ways. >> we are getting to the tipping point. what is the relationship between teachers performance and pay? >> i think we need to, you know, absolutely think completely differently about the whole human capital picture. to use that terrible term, we need to free our districts and

school principals ultimately out to think. i mean, they need to be obsessing at all times around how they attract and select great people and develop them and retain them. i mean, ultimately i think that we need to give them lots more flexibility over their compensation dollars so that they can retain and value the people who are making the biggest impact. >> if there are paid more are they better teachers? >> well, i think ultimately, you know, i mean, i don't know. what with the research show? we would have to look across sectors, but were valuing our most effective teachers accordingly from a compensation perspective and certainly from even the research we have done ourselves. even what we might consider

$15,000 paid jobs for teachers who are effective and use 4-8 would have serious retention gains. >> sorry. surely the issue is not so much at seven levels of concentration, but comparative compensation, so much of what you have been trying to do is rehabilitate the profession to might get us to take it more seriously, attracts different kinds of people. part of the way we rehabilitate is that we pay people comparably to other professions that we esteem. the issue with teaching is not whether they make x or y it is that the amount of money we pay a quality teacher is not commensurate with the amount of money we pay someone in another profession that is not as nearly important socially. >> and i also think that people with lots of other options, you know, there is just reality. you have to raise a family.

we have to make it financially viable to stay and teach. >> different ways of expressing this question, but what is your greatest regret? what is the greatest mistake you think you have made. >> hello, gosh. there have been, you know, of course -- >> a miscalculation might be another way. >> you know, the most significant one i would sign in recent days would be, i think it is tough. teach for america has grown a lot. we have big priorities around not only becoming bigger and more diverse on the one hand which bleeds as to put an enormous amount of energy into our recruitment process seas and requires us to scale up. we've grown from 1,000 to 8,000

teachers in the last ten years. we have equally ambitious goals around increasing the measurable impact of our teachers because we think it is critical for their kids and we think it's critical for the lessons that they learn. and in pursuit of that we have tried many different gangs. we have put in place measurement systems that were very well intentioned. and all sorts of, you know, we tried lots of different strategies. ultimately if we get into the ins and outs of that you see the limitations of leading with measurable -- i mean, measurable results are critical, but it is about more than that the culture that you build and keeping everyone grounded in what this is all about and the spirit of a truly putting kids on a different trajectory, creating the right balance

between the focus on measurable results and keeping everyone grounded in that spirit at the same time is a puzzle, and i think we fear too much. we are trying to now read a year. making it happen around the spirit of things. >> finally, what are you most proud of? >> probably sticking with it. i mean, i think this is very challenging work. alongside many other people to accomplish great things takes time. i think just constant learning, you know, grounding ourselves constantly. what are we learning from our most successful core members and others in communities and just keeping the constant evolution of thought. that is probably what i think is teacher of america's strength and what i'm proud of. >> thank you very much.

[applause] >> for more information about wendy kopp and teach for america visit teach for america got org. you can watch this and other programs online at booktv.org. >> well, a new online enterprise just starting out called the washington independent review of books. david stewart is the president of this organization. what is your organization? >> it is a group of writers and editors and similarly minded people mostly in the d.c. area who are very dismayed by the shriveling of book reviews space and the standard media. a lot of book review sections have been folded, shrunk, and it

is just harder to find information about what's going on in the world of books these days. coverage of the publishing industry has shrunk. we decided to do something ourselves. this is from the old judy garland rickie moon movies with a say let's put on a show. we decided we would create our own book review. about 70 of us have been engaged, and we just lost and had a great response. it has been a lot of fun and very gratifying. >> what kind of books will you be reviewing? >> a ride it rains. we are going to really review nonfiction and fiction. for now we are not going to be looking at children's books, and we will be looking at romance literature, but beyond that we are quite open. we will be reviewing recently released books. we hope to get our reviews up

within the first 30-45 days after publication. they can certainly bring into our attention because we will have to decide if we want to review them. you can get a lot of books that way that are hard to deal with. we certainly invite people to e-mail us, bring books to our attention, send us the publishing packets. that way we know and plenty of time that it is coming and can decide whether it is one we want to take a shot at reviewing. >> you said that a lot of your reviewers and people involved in the washington independent review of books have backgrounds and writing and publishing. what is your background? give us a snapshot of some of the people participating. >> well, my background is that i

was a lawyer for many years but i am an author, have done a couple of books on american history, the constitution, summer of 1787, i have a new one coming out this fall on aaron burr's buster conspiracy called american emperor. the other folks involved come from journalism. there are book writers as well. we have been so lucky in recruiting reviewers. we have a book on the eichmann trial in israel. able to get judge patricia wald who was on the war crimes tribunal for yugoslavia. we have been able to get the leading constitutional scholars to look at the first amendment book for us. it is -- we have just had a terrific response from people. as an example, a wonderful book out about the ratification of

the constitution. a new book on the constitution by gordon would. so we have really been able to get tops not -- top-notch reviewers. it is an exciting thing. everything in this operation works for the same amount of money. no one is paid, including reviewers. it is wonderful to see people willing to pitch and to create this conversation about the world of books which is really what we are all about. >> and there has been a decline in traditional media review of books, but on-line there is quite an active market place of reviewers. what do you bring to the table that is different? >> i think we are going to bring the depth and quality of our reviewers. we are doing features. we will have author interviews and q&a s. a couple of radio interview partners who will be putting up pot casts. we will provide a full range of

information, and i think the other operations that are trying to do the same thing i'm doing the lord's work as well. i certainly support what they're up to, but there is room for a lot of voices, and that is important when you are reviewing books. there are a lot of voices. you aren't just stuck with one or two reactions to a new book, which may be idiosyncratic in their reactions. >> will you be looking at politically slanted books as well? will you be looking at both books from the left and right and middle? >> of course. you know, we are predominantly with washington area writers. we have a lot of interest in political and historical topics. we take them all on, every point on the spectrum. >> and how often will you be putting out new material? >> we will have new content up every day.

either a new interview or a new review. you know, in the early days we would try not to set the bar too high, but as time goes on we expect content to become richer and richer. we are looking for to that. >> and you say in your website that you got your seed money through the a iw freedom to write fund. >> well, it is associated with american independent writers which is a writers' organization here in the d.c. area. the freedom to write fund is a 5013c affiliated with the iw. we have done modest fund-raising we need to do more, but enough to get as up and running. it has been a great sponsorship. >> david steward is the president of the washington independent review of books. washington independent review of books thought, as the upside.

>> book tv is on twitter. follow us for regular updates on programming and news on nonfiction books and authors. >> we are here at the national press club talking about his new book. can you tell us what things you discovered about the vice president that were not previously known? >> well, almost everything that is known is known. joe biden was there. he is a very open person, as everybody knows. he is often accused of talking too much. ..

i had a three and a half-hour interview with him but i also had great access to other members of his family. interviewed 120 people here in washington in the senate and the state of delaware and also in syracuse we went to law school and scranton where he was born when he was a young boy. one of the amazing thing about it was it was heart -- wasn't hard to find anybody to say anything negative about joe biden because he is an outgoing and personable guy and as i have

found out extremely on this. when he had the one episode in his career where he was accused of plagiarism and 1988, presidential campaign, it was deep -- he was deeply wounded by that because it went to his sense of integrity. he is a person who often says when he makes a speech or talking to a group, he uses the expression, i give you my word as a biden and that is very important to him. one episode in 1988 -- 87 actually it was when he was accused of plagiarism, that cut into the quick because he felt that was not him. and one of the reasons i was told by members of his family that he decided to run for president a second time to deal with that blemish on his career. >> thank you very much for your time.

>> on debris 16th of this year, the borders bookstore group declared bankruptcy. joining us now on booktv to discuss the impact of this bankruptcy is sarah weinman who is the news editor of publishers marketplace. ms. wyman, how did orders get to the point of declaring bankruptcy? >> guest: well i think it has been a long time in coming. certainly, the last three years in particular as quarter after quarter borders has been losing

money and they have also gone through a number of management changes especially at the top. they have gone through i think something like four ceos in the past four years. but the story can also date back to the beginning of the 21st century i suppose, things like selling their web site to amazon in 2001 and they didn't reclaim it until 2008. their e-book strategy was never at the same level as say amazon's kindle or barnes & noble with enough. it just always kind of scene that borders was operating a few steps behind every other retailer and combining all the additional factors that has been i guess impacting the publishing industry especially on the print side in combination with various managerial mismanagement, it really didn't come as a particular surprise that borders declared chapter 11. >> host: sarah whiteman you mentioned amazon connection. what exactly did borders do with

amazon and in your view what kind of mistake was that? >> guest: to reiterate back in 2001 when borders had had its own web site, but they, instead of running their own commerce selling books directly themselves, they pass that to amazon so essentially they were giving up revenue to their competitor in order to essentially make certain things easier, but in doing that it was something of a devil's bargain because they'd didn't essentially on their own on line property. so by the time that they change directions they have a think a new ceo who said this was not a very good idea, but in reclaiming it in 2008, by then amazon had already introduced the candle. barnes & noble snuck was already in the works so it wouldn't be introduced until 2009 so when borders did develop its own e-book strategy in selling some additional the readers, they just never were able to catch up

in terms of appropriate market share. >> host: what happens to the borders e-book reader the kobo? >> guest: well, kobo says that any e-books that have been botched through borders web site are i believe in their words, perfectly safe, and it is interesting that kobo's other partner in australia which incidentally franchises the borders name for various bookstores, they have also declared bankruptcy over there. so i'm hopeful that kobo's insertions are indeed true but i think it will be interesting to see if in fact the e-books that people bought through borders site are indeed safe and people can reclaim them and read them and so on and so forth. >> host: so borders has about 642 big-box stores across the country. how many are they closing? >> guest: they are closing 200 the going out of business sales are in fact starting tomorrow.

i believe the liquidation sales will be between 20 and 40% off and those are already going to be in the works. they have actually already i believe shutting down the cafés at the superstores, and it will be very apparent walking into those 200 stores that have been designated foreclosure that you will see the going out at disney sale signs and be able to get the books, cds dvds and other appropriate merchandise at those prices. >> host: why is it the barnes & noble has been able to maintain its big talk strategy? is at all about the e-books? >> guest: i don't believe it is all about the e-books. i think it may come down to this, which is that barnes & noble certainly most recently, they are run at the top by people who value books more than anything else, with respect to borders essentially because there has been such a tremendous return of management changes, they brought in people from outside companies who have

experience in general retail who may not have realized that their experience did not necessarily translate into what is appropriate for the book business. the book business is very quirky and it is not always been the best fit with respect to what public companies in particular need. for example, expecting higher and higher profits, the book business has a tight margin, 1% as the average. if you are lucky if you get up to 3% so as a result, the sort of uncomfortable fit operated by people who work as experience with how the book business works, probably added to borders troubles. >> host: sarah weinman when you look at the bricks and mortar business of booksellers what do you see in the future given what has happened to borders? >> guest: it is interesting you say that because i am starting to believe more and more that we may also be witnessing the natural end of the chain bookstore business, which essentially started in the

late '80s and early '90s, when borders expanded, when barnes & noble expanded and we started seeing these massive superstores. some of them were part of malls but most of them were entities you could drive up to and park your car and go in and sit in comfy chairs and be part of his greater experience than just browsing for books. i do wonder if perhaps we were perhaps fooling ourselves that this could last as long as it did, and maybe 20 years was the natural lifecycle for such a thing, so we will see, especially as digital sales keep growing. perhaps we will see a greater preponderance of smaller independent stores. a number of them have opened. certainly they face many of the pressures that have been debated and bandied about over the last decade but the ones that have opened and have a certain business acumen that are trying to ring gauge both within their trinity and also develop even a

small e-book strategy, they seem to have the best chance for survival and hopefully we will see more of those. the ecosystem is going to change. it will certainly impact how publishers perhaps sign-up authors and what sort of advance advances they are paying and what books will be most visible. but to say that the shrinking of the chain bookstore business means that the book industry is dead is a connection i would be deeply uncomfortable in making because there are too many signs that are pointing towards the more optimistic waters. >> host: who are some of borders biggest creditors and what have they said since the filing? >> guest: well, on the unsecured creditors side, the biggest one is the penguin putnam group which i believe is going 41 million. after that most of the major big publishers, for example simon & shuster, 33 million random house is owed somewhere around the

mid-30 million range, harpercollins, mcmillan and so on and so forth. i believe the only publisher that has issued a statement is penguin. others have stayed mom with respect to what is happening. and of course there are the larger secured creditors which are bank of america, which held a credit agreement. they are still owed almost 200 million. i believe ji capital is owed 50 million off of their own tranche agreement as well so they have to pay off the banks. they have to pay off their biggest publishers and of course landlords are trying to get whatever they can as well as additional creditors. so all toldorders boze about 300 or so billion dollars to vendors and they still have to figure out how they are going to get paid. >> host: can in your view orders emerge from bankruptcy or with its remaining stock of stores etc., profitable company? >> guest: i think it would be wonderful to see them emerge as

a smaller, leaner more profitable company. i also believe that many of the factors that have enabled them to go into bankruptcy may not be so kind and forgiving. to my mind, they are a little too much concordance with what happened when they went into chapter 11 administration in late 2008, went through the courts and realize they didn't have an appropriate business plan and eventually went into chapter 7. numerous reports have indicated that publishers are not terribly happy with what order seems to have in mind. their top prior to for examples seems to be highlighting the borders awards plus card but if customers come in and they know that this company is in trouble, do they really want to redeem their borders rewards plus card or sign up for membership in a company they may feel doesn't have a future? so i think it must borders has a really rocksolid strategy as to how they are going to survive, they may suffer the same fate as

circuit city but at the same time i don't think we are going to know for several months at the earliest. >> host: sarah weinman is the news editor at publishers marketplace. thank you for joining us on booktv. >> guest: thank so much for having me. >> now a.j. langguth recounts andrew jackson's forced removal of indian tribes that resided in the southeast during the 1830s. the author recalls the debates that surround jackson's policy and the arduous travel of the cherokees dubbed the trail of tears as they were led by bayonet point from their former home to the oklahoma territory. a.j. langguth presents his book at the atlanta history center. this is an hour, 20 minutes. >> usually on an evening like this, i talk off the cuff, but tonight i want to cite some material from my book and, since i was a reporter for a number of years, it would just be too

ironic to misquote myself. [laughter] so i have prepared a little something, which i can repair to. one thing i would like to start with is to tell you how pleased i have been in doing the research for this book. to be received by such spectacularly informed and helpful people at your archives and at your libraries around the state. i particularly remember don hampton inn rome, georgia and a ms. kitty rutherford in calhoun. they were really splendid for me, but the person i was particularly impressed by, and the location, and maybe i hope a number of you know it, is the newest state historical site

presided over at that time by dr. donna meyer. and now, because of the budget constraints, i understand that all of these sites can be curtailed and in some cases even closed in others but the newest showed a site was a wonderful exhibition of what life was like among the cherokees up until 1830s, and when i was there, you saw troops of georgia schoolchildren coming through. and really learning about the history in the most dramatic way. they seemed enthralled by it. so this now is probably inappropriate, but i would like to make a pitch for the support group. if you decide that you should support the new site, you can reach it -- this is all one word, prince of ga parts.org and

then you designated as your chapter. that is the end of my commercial. my own interest in the removal of the cherokees started some years ago, when i finish the book on the war of 1812. and it ended with a spectacular victory in new orleans by andrew jackson. you know, one of the great military victories of all time, 2500 british soldiers badly led i might say, and then seven or eight american casualties. if you don't get that very often in any war and of course it may jackson a huge legend among the american people, as well at night. so, i have felt for a long time that because we usually get our american history in the tenth

grade, and reluctantly, we miss the epic sweep of our own history. it is a great great story and that is what i have hoped to tell it my books. for example, you take george washington. i think a case can be made without any chauvinism that washington was one of the great men of all time. not just american history, a great, great man. and similarly, jackson was a great general. now, in doing my research, i found that writing about jackson's life after his military exploits presented quite a different picture from the celebration i really have enjoyed writing about, when he succeeded so triumphantly. but, the most troubling aspect

of his presidency to me, and there were others, but one was his determination to force the cherokee nation off its land. and that is what i would like to talk to you about tonight. i had already suspected, even before, that is his very well-publicized sympathy for the common man sprung from a sense that jackson had from an early age the elites at the time -- the virginia planters and their allies in the north -- looked down on him, and they did. albert gallatin, who is a swiss and very sophisticated man, who probably helped us stay afloat more than anyone else financially during the war of 1812, he summarized jackson as a

rough back -- and thomas jefferson was even more dismissive. he said, he remembered his time in congress and he said, he could never speak on account of the rations of his feelings. i have seem him attempt repeatedly and is often choked with rage. so if you it has seemed to me that jackson was motivated in part by a desire to revenge himself on that kind of person, and he succeeded very much when he took on the bank of the united states. you remember that he was opposed to it. he thought that it was run by rafters and rich people for their benefit, not for the country. he was able to destroy it temporarily and to put in its place what were dismissed as pit

banks. little banks in the various states. now, i was happy to leave to economists the whole ins and outs of this story, but what we can't overlook is the fact that in the year after he left office, the economy suffered a huge collapse, and there was misery because of his victory. and i think in many ways, the same thing happened with the cherokees. he succeeded in his aim, but misery followed in its wake. one of the things that struck me, and i had anticipated it at all, was that reading about this whole period and thinking about it and immersing myself in it, it brought up all kinds of questions about guilt.

i started to think about individual guilt, collective guilt, historical guilt, even geographical guilt. and i would like to talk a little about that later with you this evening because i think that they have -- those questions have relevance to our mart recent history than the cherokees. first though, we could review, and i am apologetic about this because many of you in a setting like this know this information very well, but for those who don't, for those like me who came late to the subject, we could review the state of the cherokee nation when jackson appeared on the scene. five tribes had lived for centuries in this particular corner of the continent, and

that was long before de soto arrived from spain in 1540. later, we call them the five civilized tribes because they seem to be the people who adapted best to the white culture. besides the cherokee you know there were the choctaw, chickasaw, some in all and the creek. the cherokees lived in the valleys of what are now tennessee, carolinas and georgia. travelers who came to this section of the world in the mid-1700's found the cherokees to be unusually attractive and amiable people. they were taller than the white settlers and they spoke in a language that sounded to the european ear like singing. the cherokee wives raveled in hard work.

they tended to the communal farmland. they did all of the chores around. their husbands hunted during the season and then with their wife's encouragement wrested the rest of the year, so you can imagine that this early french trader found this very attractive. and they oftentimes took these soft-spoken women as wives. they also learned that they could strike a very hard organ with the cherokees by plying them with liquor. when the english traders replaced the french, they brought rahm with them. the cherokees had developed an ethical code that held that anything was forgiven that you did when you were drunk, except murder. murder was the one exception. anything else if you were drunk that was reason enough. the northern missionaries began to come south and they were

appalled to find that the cherokees held slaves. the slaves were originally taken from other tribes and battles, but his hunting became harder on the planes and as cotton became unattractive -- and attractive crop, the cherokees began to buy african slaves like their white counterparts. also in those early days, the united states throughout the continent was buying up large tracts of land from the various indian tribes. the cherokees became alarmed enough at the end of roads into their holdings that they instituted something they called the blood law and it held this, that if the cherokee sold any property or traded any property under a treaty, without the

permission of the entire cherokee council, they could be murdered. they should be murdered. they could be murdered without any legal penalty of any sort. so, that was very briefly, the state of the cherokee nation when andrew jackson appeared on the scene. by the time he was elected president, jackson had a new grievance and i would say a very legitimate one. he felt that he had been cheated out of the presidency in 1824. what happened was he won the popular vote. he won the majority of votes in the electoral college, but he did not win enough votes in the college to be declared president, so the race was thrown into the house of representatives. now, if we remember the year 2000, we remember that that kind

of disputed election can rankle long after it has officially been decided and that was certainly the case with jackson. he felt victimized. then, in -- well 1824, that same year, the reason john quincy adams was able to become president, even though he played second to jackson and the areas that should have counted was that henry clay would come in fourth, and a very extraordinary man, clay. part of writing this book was getting to know more about him but he entrusted -- distrusted distrust of the military man as president. and he particularly held the common assumption about jackson,

that he was not fit for the office of what they called chief magistrate. and so, he met confidentially with john quincy adams, and they struck a deal, and the deal was that if clay through the votes he controlled to adams, enough to put him over the top and make him president, adams would appoint clay as secretary of state, and in those days that was about as short a path to the presidency as you could have. it was done. it was unusual because these two men had met and gotten to know each other very well in the peace treaty negotiations in brussels that ended the war of 1812. and they didn't like each other at all, and for good reason. john quincy adams -- i think we

have to have a grudging affection for him but he was very stiff neck to them, self-righteous. and henry clay was exactly the opposite. they sharedar