and politicians need that have been and the important thing is this is america's city a doherty has a stake in the city, every becomes here, belongs them and this comes about. >> one of the things we do in the book there is very strange thing for example, the lincoln conspirators were hung in the famous photograph is now the place in which garfield was shot on his way back to the williams college reunion waiting for the building on the mall. a little tiny markers about as big as a trustee that says this is where the president was shot, so part of this is discovering this league history of the city and the and back to amazing things in the civil war.

there's part of washington where abraham lincoln there's a battle in washington that the confederate troops are approaching the city and abraham lincoln stands up and they shoot at him and somebody says mr. president, and they pull him down. one of the problems of the battle of fort stevens is have the soldiers had to keep the citizens sightseers back from getting killed. this wildness that was here all along and was sort of limestone down. estimate on the spot and painting the path in washington, d.c. now in its fourth edition, douglas evelyn and paul dickson. coming at next, thomas allen presents a history of tory americans during the american revolution. self-proclaimed loyalist to the british crown he recounts the tori stronghold in philadelphia,

the civil war that took place among the american populace and the migration of 80,000 tories most of whom left for canada. thomas allen presents his book at the library of congress in washington, d.c.. it's 40 minutes. >> i'm not supposed to have to plug a the library of congress that it's inevitable. a few years ago i got a call from a historian at the cia who i had met when i had been working on the george washington book about intelligence in the revolutionary war, and he says the library of congress is something you might be interested in. call this number. and i thought wow. maybe the cia really does -- [laughter] people, you know, just like in the 70's of the conduit, people reading books all the time. so, while it wasn't quite that. what had happened was the library had gotten a manuscript that had been written by a tory

in connecticut during the revolution who was under house arrest for his tory fonts' coming and he decided he would write his own history of america particularly the revolution coming in his name was constant tiffany, and in the manuscript he gives a look at why he was a tory. it's kind folded into some other elements in the revolution. the point about it i found it right here and was in that i found it, it was found for me, which is what happens. this is a wonderful place to look. that was one of the object that started me going on the book. i had an editor one time who said don't tell me how you got the story, just write it and turn it in.

and i usually follow that, but there are some really elements to this. i also was about to say interesting but i had another editor who says no, i tell you it's something interesting you don't tell me. [laughter] so anyhow, i started looking around at the idea of a book on the tories, but i dismissed the idea because john adams said you can't write a good history of the american revolution because certain records -- it's absolutely missing. they don't exist. and one was the records showing why the tories became tories, and what the british were doing to encourage the existence of a tory element in the american colonies. and the other set of records that he said were impossible to find were the records of what the rebels did to the tories,

and that this kind of intriguing because he just sort of leads it there. well, i decided i would start doing some other things and has said, i would come in here and find elements for it. but everything was sort of moving towards a book to words somewhere in the 18th-century. i thought of the scots irish and i did a proposal, a book proposal and an editor who saw it said this is all dairy interesting but why not do a book on the tories? there hasn't been one written in a long time. so that was it. and it did become a question for the records, and the records were all over the place. a lot of them here, a lot of them in canada because that's where a lot of the tories went and there were records in england and there were records in the state archives, and there

wasn't any country yet so there couldn't have been much in the national archives. but in the state archives. for instance, in delaware, a bloodthirsty set of folders and what they call the trees and file because they declared that if you are a tory and you did anything the looked like it was going to be raising arms against the rebellion, you could behind. that was the beginning of the discovery that one of the reasons we don't -- well i was trying to find out why is it we don't know much about tories come and about the 18th-century and washington so forth so i couldn't really understand why they were standing out there and they were not being covered. well, two things came to mind.

one is when we were in ireland -- my wife and i, as i said in the acknowledgement, treuhand is actually on the impressions of xerox machines where we were copying documents and i could see her hand. so her hand was literally involved in the research of this book. what we were in ireland and met an irish historian, and i was telling him about working on this subject and how little there was available at least at first glance. and he said well, every country has a grand story. and they developed that grand story and things fall away and they go underground and i think your speed are in the underground somewhere. that was a great insight. and then the other thing i discovered was that there was a tremendous brutal and vicious,

atrocious fighting that went on in that underground and nobody really liked to talk much about that either, contemporaneously. so we started trying to find a way to get the idea across and here's one exercise which i found myself doing. i had written a book for young adults on valley forge and i sort of went back in my mind and said okay, here's george washington and the remnants starving to death, no shoes, dollying and deserted by the dozens. and 20 miles away in philadelphia. and in philadelphia the occupying forces of the british army are having a grand time. they are not starving to death they are getting three meals a day and more remarkable when you put into it a little bit more, you find that there are some

eyewitness accounts of the british coming into philadelphia, the british army. congress had scuttled a short time before. liberty hall is going to have a british flag flying over it and as the british coming to philadelphia, the streets are lined with cheering people. when the british start selling in, some of these people go to the british and say would you like to know where the rebel leaders are and they take the british account and the leaders are put into jail in philadelphia. well, that's the other side of valley forge. but the reason of valley forge, one of the reasons certainly was that there was a great deal of hesitation to openly support the continental army in a lot of areas of america and a lot of time during the revolution. and that was not much of the

discovery, but it gave me a kind of insight and started looking at things more deeply and it turns out that so many loyalists by some estimates, 80,000 other estimates, 100,000, somewhere in that range left the united states of america because they were tories. they call themselves loyalists but we call them tories, we americans and that is a funny thing to say. early in the game i couldn't use the word americans very easily in this book because everybody is an american. if you go back to about 1760, everybody is a tory essentially. they are all british subjects.

and they see the king as the man they're going to worship every sunday as most of them were, they are going to pray for the king, and the wherewithal, there's only one trading partner and that england, and that's the way things were but as the revolution started to percolate and the sons of italy -- [laughter] wow, where am i? the sons of liberty started functioning in boston and new york. things started to change. and a group started to question the revolution. for a while it was a political debate. i can across the club that was formed in plymouth, it was formed in 1770 or 71.

go ahead and look it up, it's in the book. and there was called the old colony club pity was founded primarily by descendants passengers on the mayflower. there isn't a better american pedigree to say you descended from the mayflower. a lot of the people who descended from the mayflower and the generation of the revolution were tories. well, they formed a club, and they decided that they would celebrate the landing from the mayflower every year. they didn't call it thanksgiving. they just said they would have a big dinner at the colony club, the old colony club, and by about the third year, there are people in the club who are starting to think i want to be a tory, one to be a rebel, and what happens finally is the sons

of liberty in 1774, 75 say there is it going to be any more colony club in plymouth. we are going to take that stone that the pilgrims said they stepped on. no proof of it, by the way, but there was a stone even then, steppingstone. supposedly there were people who set five descended from the woman whose foot touched that stone and she was brave enough to come ashore. so they took this stone and got a lot of oxen and a lot of strong lad's implement and they started lifting the stone into a cart. the idea was they were going to take it to the center of gwyneth, and under what was then a liberty pole. flying from the liberty pole has any one of several that represented the revolution. and when they take the stone

out, it splits and they left one part in the ocean and took the other part in diplomat. and the was the first idea they talk about the splitting of the stone because they were seeing was going on. to go back to consider tiffanies manuscript, he was very outraged by the revolution on religious grounds. he says that the sabbath is being violated again and again by the rebels and where there had only been good there is now evil. he sees the moral and religious basis for this. other people saw other reasons and i felt that i couldn't really go into the reasons that

much because they're seemed to be individual reasons for each person. the affair is there was a historian in the early 19th century who was trying to round of information about loyalists, and he produced biographies of hundreds, and he said he wished he could have found more, but if that had been defeated in a revolution, if the land is taken away, if you have to arrest people and yourself you don't do much writing about the experience. there was a journal can across right here by a man named stephen. he writes a journal and the immaturity and starts it with the first news coming in from lexington and concord and

reaches stamberg connecticut a few days after the shot heard around the world, and he's an 18-year-old kid and he has a girlfriend named m.l. amelia and he joins. the rebel militia is the captain of the rebel militia is one of his uncle's. his father is a tory. the father throws him out of the house and says he took me by the arm and threw me out of the house. so he stays in the rebel militia for a short time and then thinks better of it and he does something that hundreds of people, young men and some families could eventually. if you look at what happens early in the revolution when the continental army loses the

battle of long island, long island becomes a stronghold for speed. it's a magnet for anybody who lives on the other side of long island. although little towns along the fairfield county shoreline are called tory towns by the rebels because all you have to do is get in a boat and wrote or sail across the long island sound, get to long island and the british walker and with open arms, and you will find yourself among friends. so people go across and one of them is stevan. when he gets there, stephen jarvis and lists in the queens rangers. it's one of 150 or more at least 150 military units, formed by

tories to fight, not just debate but fight other americans who are rebels and stevens journal. one of the first remarkable things about it is the journalist called and americans experience in the british army. he's not in the british army comegys and tory army units that was formed by tories in new york and it will fight alongside the independent of the british army, but just like what happened with tiffany's manuscript, the manuscript for the jarvis journal was found in a trash can published in 1907. in 1907 we didn't want to think

of the revolution has anything but the revolution and we couldn't use the term civil war because we have had the north-south only a generation before. so the whole term goes away and so does the idea of tories. anyway, jarvis goes to war and fights in battles all the way from new jersey down to georgia and florida. he tells americans and writes about it. the war enzus he has been in a tory richmond and plenty of battle for seven years. he comes back to dan barry connecticut wearing his green loyalist uniform. loyalist's frequently when they

get out whoever it recruited them wore green uniforms to distinguish themselves from the red coats. so he walks into banbury and expects he's going to marry amelia and they will settle down and in very. they decided they were going to have a relative who is an anglican clergyman that he will have the clergymen marry them in the local anglican church. what stevan doesn't know is of the anglican churches were closed during the revolution because the anglicans started their services by praying for the king and if you prefer the king you're in trouble and can wind up in jail or maybe house arrest like considered tiffany or there was also a compromise have been kinetic and if you went down a couple hundred feet into the copper mine there were a little cells and to my point

of there. so he comes back to been very and find is that the anglican church disclosed. they get themselves in a minister and he marry sam and a mob comes to the house. he talks them down and then the next day, the day after his wedding the local sheriff crashes into the bridal chamber and says get out of town. what he didn't know is that if you had taken arms against the rebels and you're from connecticut, you were subject to treason and hanging. so eventually, he and his wife, they try to stick it out as long as they can, but they are threatened and they finally go to canada with their infant child, and when i started looking at the canadian exodus,

what's happening is the british want the loyalists to stay here but loyalists start to feel the urge to get out and one of the reasons they want to get out is because they are losing their land. the confiscation of land was consistent through the revolution. every one of the state's have some kind of a law about confiscation and they were charging them with treason. what they do is go to canada because the british see the benefit of getting a group of english-speaking british subjects up into canada to counteract those people in quebec who are catholic and

speak french. so the whole area of what is nova scotia and new brunswick becomes the homeland of the people who left america and they are given access, army rations, some tenths in some cases, lumber and other cases and told to cut down the trees and stirred some communities which they do and they are very proud of it today. if you are a descendant of one of the loyalists who came up there, you can put a new e after your name and its united empire they had helped preserve the empire. and if you want to know what the tories wanted and what their intention was if they had one. just look at canada. that whole steadfast character that we talked about in canada. the canadians tell you that came from the fact that they were

founded by not revolutionaries, but people who kept their heads about them and they had gone up there and started the kind of country we wish we had down here. parliament, constitutional markey and freedom of speech. all of the freedoms we have. if we look at canada as kind of cousins, and now you can look at canada as even more so. these are the people who didn't want revolution and the people who didn't want a revolution pretty obviously one. but i think that one of the legacies that the tories hand and it's a legacy we feel tremors' about today is that no matter what you do there is a dissent in some cases violent and bloody murder mr. ascent insight we the people. and a first generation of politicians in america

supposedly learn that. and i guess the lesson continues until today. so that's the tories on a kind of philosophical claim. maybe some questions about the blood and the hangings. [laughter] [applause] >> a lot of them came back. do you have any idea how many came back? >> what happens is you can see references. first of all there's the little matter of the war of 1812. a lot of the sons of loyalists, cross the border, and if we had the roster of who weren't washington i think we would find some of the names among them. so once you get the war of 1812,

which essentially new england said we are not interested, the new england war of 1812 refused to send militia and all that. swindel england, yeah, they are coming back. they're coming back to what? they are coming back to not having their farms anymore, they have to start all over again but you find references of the son of a tory mary and the daughter of a rebel and vice versa. so it starts to recover and in particular there's a lot celebration of this in massachusetts particularly. here's the center of it all and it becomes the center of reconciliation. there's no retribution to speak of. and the safety valve really turned off to the canada i think. if there hadn't been a canada we would still be in the revolution

probably. >> there was the engagement between the british army and the columbia. i take it all the other things were going on. >> the tories here and there, one example william franklin, the son of ben franklin had been the royal governor of new jersey, and he is arrested for being a robie governor easily and put in jail the escapes and he winds up in new york which was of course under the british occupation throughout the war and starts up a guerrilla organization which is operating outside of the british hierarchal control. the british army's are kind of upset about it and they actually do use the word terror and they write r's on the house is as an

indication the you can do anything you want to anybody in that house as it is a rebel. this is basically in new jersey it gets to be called the neutral ground ironically because there won't be any army is there but there are loyalists and rebels fighting each other on a guerrilla basis. so yes, that -- if you look at the revolution kind of microscopically you see about 700 some odd battles and skirmishes and 500 some, about 550 of them involved in the military units. the most dramatic one is in the kings mountain on the north carolina, south carolina border where there are about 900 rebels who have been rounded up to fight tory american legion which is commanded by a british

officer named ferguson. and eventually the battle takes place there were a thousand tories and 900 rebels, and when the battle was over the rebels when and they will not honor the flag of surrender. they start hanging people, and nobody on that field was anything but an american except for one british officer and its kind to me symbolic and the fact that you can't really talk about americans when you're writing this war. you've got to call them something because they are all americans. >> does the character defer their more bloodthirsty? i remember reading about the regulated movement and so on. >> the british really expected strategically that if they could take the south they could stop

the revolution. it would just essentially all of the southern colonies would become british and would start out the story of the revolution. and they put great hope in the loyalists that were there. one of the problems they had was they didn't do anything strategically. the british army didn't want to cooperate very much with the tories, and there was a cast, a class issue involved in my opinion. the other thing that had happened is very early in the war, the governor of virginia declared that any sleeved going over to the british would be getting his or her freedom and a lot of those former slaves went to fight for the british. not just -- a lot of them were called pioneers and the wood built fortifications and to

jobs, but there was one regiment, the ethiopian regiment and across the front of the uniform at said freedom for slaves. and this dampened lawyer listened especially by their reeling class because they were seeing so many slaves over to the british. at the end of the war when the loyalists are going to canada, about 3,500 slaves go to canada and are given land and start a colony in canada. this is a footnote to that about ten years later they say we are not getting a good deal here in canada getting swaziland for mistreated. and essentially the form of the

modern state of sierra leone. and it's the result of the revolution. >> we had a history teacher we paid no attention to and so five years ago when i was back i looked in the library and on each side they would burn each other's houses and steal the cattle and had funny names. >> cowboys. some get something else. >> one was the cowboys' and -- the cowboys got to be everybody for a while but there were green code readers and i forgot the name they had, but one of the little footnotes, the history is

when andre leaves the mcdonald after having obtained the defense of west point, he's walking along and a british uniform with a great coat on and he sees three nondescript soldiers and assumes they are tories and says i'm a british officer welcome to reality. we are not. [laughter] so that is hummocks that it was. and west chester, yes. was the deily knees cowboys. the delansy. >> [inaudible] >> if you want to get out of here early don't bring him up. [laughter] he's an incredible character. john singleton. he does a portrait of paul

revere one day and another day he does a portrait of the british commander of the redcoats in boston and there's a wonderful little story. before the revolution in the right against the existing governors come his name is bernard thereby it spills out into the halls of harvard and there is a portrait of bernard in one of the halls, and one of the rebels gets on somebody's shoulders i guess and he cuts the section out of the portrait that would have been where the heart was if he had initially being and he says i've taken bernard's part. well, harvard calls on john singleton to repair the portrait since he had painted. he shows and repairs and from then on his a marked man, and he leaves the country before the

revolution starts and becomes a member of what is called a loyalist club in london. thomas alves the author of several books including remember valley forge and spy master. for more information about author and his book, visit toriesfightingfortheking.com. chicago economic history. it is a chicago economic history, but futures has transformed the financial system in ways i think people don't may be fully appreciate and they don't realize and that goes for the traders as well as for people now who are wrestling with these big concept like derivatives and understanding where they came from and understanding what happened here i think is a story that hasn't been told very much. and i'm not so silly as to think that it's completely told in this book either.

i'm hoping that this is -- i scratched the surface of what i think it's an interesting history and it deserves a lot more attention. and i know i have more stories in my notes that didn't make it in, so i hope i can add to this record after this and another time because there is just so much. i asked bill to talk because i was hoping he might be able to explain to people who are not in the industry who are here what i and even talking about at all. his family mirrors the teaching industry in chicago, so there are -- mabey can start if you don't mind by what is the futures contract? >> i know a lot of people think that it is a very mysterious and arcane type of business the futures contracts are

essentially insurance products and that was the reason the industry first developed. it was the futures contracts are a way to offset risk on the part of both people who need to use commodities and people who produce commodities. and futures contract is a contract between the buyer and the seller for a specific commodity specific price for a specific future delivery date. and i guess the easiest way to explain it in terms of how it's used by people to offset risk one of the simplest examples is you take an airline company, someone who needs to use a lot of fuel on a regular basis. and of course the fuel prices go up they can have a severe adverse impact on their profitability. so an airline company realizing that crude oil is at $80 a

barrel and they are concerned me go to $100 a barrel the have the ability to purchase all they need and a given price of $80 knowing that that will be that final cost for the product. >> said the u.s. futures because they have too much risk, right? they want to shut it off onto some other people, and i think what makes it such a fun business is that chicago has all of these people not willing to take that risk. >> that's the other side. the real economic reason for having futures contracts for those who want to avoid risks but it certainly also provides a great opportunity for those who want to assume risk in search of process. >> you can watch this and other programs online at booktv.org. >> how did the juvenile to list the system get started in this country? >> will it got started writer of the turn of the 20th century. the first juvenile court law was

passed in illinois and 1899 establishing a separate court for juvenile, and along with it can separate institution for the juvenile centers. the system was so popular that it was copied by almost every a thirsty and the union by the 1920's. texas adopted a juvenile court in 1907. >> and you write that the juvenile justice system has failed in this country. why do you think that it's failed? >> it's failed to live up to its founding promise which was basically that it would establish a more protective system youthful offenders. the juvenile justice system was founded on the concept children were different from adults defenders and less responsible for their offenses and they were more capable of being rehabilitated. a social miles were supposed to be separated from adults and treated differently from adults. it's really feel the to do that. today it's very commonplace to

see the scandals and the juvenile institutions that are scarcely different from prisons, juvenile courts have adopted most of the same procedural features as adult courts so to many critics and i guess i would include myself in that grouping has failed. >> tell us a little bit about the scandal with the west texas state school sort of fuelled this issue. >> well, the scandal broke in the news media and early 2007, and it was in fact as we're sitting here right now the last major figure in that scandal is on trial for years after the scandal to give you an idea how long it's been going on. the administrators at one of the facilities in the remote area of west texas were coercing sexual favors from several using their power administrators this went

on for years and was basically covered up by the higher ups within the state agency that oversaw the institution and was finally leaked out and then publicized. >> what is a super predator? >> super predator is a phrase coined in the mid 1990's by a criminologist named john and was originally intended to mean kids who kill without and captured in some of the popular movies of the period like the natural born killers. and in the mid-1990s there really was a kind of national panic over the violent juvenile crimes and that word became attached to that panic. the work also carried a high leave racial connotation and seemed to many critics to refer

to african-american and latino juvenile so are increasingly over represented in the incarcerated juvenile population. >> what role do you think race plays in the problems for our juvenile justice system? >> i think it's really central and a lot of ways and i'm certainly not alone in thinking that. whether you want to believe you for color create more crimes as some believe or you want to believe the system actively discriminates against the more institutional in some way there's no doubt that race is a central factor in the juvenile justice system. some callis texas a good case study for a problem in the entire country? >> well, texas throughout much of the 20th century was one of the largest juvenile justice systems in the country just in terms of the number of youth and institutions that manage. it's also a useful case study just because of the political and economic clout that the state has come to acquire over

the course of the last 50 or 60 years as one of the largest states, demographically diverse states. it's one of the most geographically diverse and powerful states. several recent u.s. presidents have come from texas. several important national legislators have come from texas >> why did you want to write this book? what was the emphasis to get you started? >> mikey impetus to get started on this book really was an interest in how we as a society decided to the good kids are and who the bad kids are and then what is to be done with them. and i initially began looking at the popular culture and presentations of the u.s. and then i became dissatisfied with that and decided i needed to look at real kids and real policies and institutions that affected them. >> so after all of your

research, where to texas and other states go from here? have you seen improvements since you've written the book or as you were writing the book? >> there's been a lot of change since i finished the book. the legislature is considering abolishing. several facilities have been shut down as i was finishing the book. lots of been sent back to their community and there is a movement to move away from being institutions again and to words community-based facilities. and part of that is being driven by the polish crisis affecting many states across the country including texas which has something like 27 billion-dollar deficit to deal with right now. as of that is really fueling a lot of this sort of progressive movement in some ways. >> great. thank you very much. ..