that was the basic foundation for so much of western anti-semitism. it was the foundation of inquisition. it was the foundation of expulsions. and it made it reasonable and rational. well, the other pillar at that time was the pillar relating to who sold jesus out and why. and so the second pillar bill with the issue of money, jews and money. jesus was not sold out by judas, for theology, for philosophy, for ideology. we are told and taught, sold him out for 30 pieces of silver. and so throughout at least western civilization, the elements of anti-semitism were

routed in both elements. and it grew. and it grew and became more and more legitimate. >> in trenton train to examine former washington chancellor michelle rhee and her three-year effort to reform the school system. this event is 40 minutes. >> the question i get asked most about this book is how did i get started on this year and it is an interesting story because i finish a boy's book and i knew it was going to write another book it shouldn't be another issue book because people love issues but but they don't actually buy that many issues. what i want to write one with a narrative, racing to turn the page. so my wife and i were out biking and i was day dreaming and falling behind or by about 50 yards. all of a sudden i realized, i

know someone who could carry a whole book with a narrative into. and, of course, that's how it ended up asking michelle to cooperate in some way for the book. that's the process that took about two months. but she eventually, she gave me some access here, enough to do the book which was great and it's great working with or. everyone also asks me what's my favorite michelle story. it leads off with a michelle story about going to the dealer so vocal into that one. but there's another one i love that is buried in there that you might miss. when the girls, when the daughters were much younger, kevin and michelle living in toledo went to the original pancake house for a special meal. it's always a big line there. and sure enough there was a line there. is this creating echo? and so they're standing, their

problem is their open tables and staff milling around. as kevin tells the story, michelle checks it out and she walks up behind the maître d' desk and back and then she looked around the restaurant you can finally she just walks behind the maître d''s desk and says okay, you, too for over your. and then dispatch the whole thing. it's the funniest thing as kevin said, the staff of the restaurant where like grateful that somebody knew what they were doing. so that's my sort of favorite michelle story. and i'm going to wrap up because i know she is more interesting than listening to me. the significance of the book is my gut instinct in starting the book was michelle would be tackling the core issues that we are going to be seeing playing out in states and school districts in the coming years your you know, i'd like to say some genius on my part is not accidental, but, in fact, that is happening. if you look at the teachers

contracts, look at colorado, florida, new jersey, new york, and all those places if you look at the reforms that are proposed or just starting, you can see how they played out would be washington, d.c.. of course, our politicians will look at what happened here and say why would we do that? the maher lost his job and michelle lost her job. and to those who would say that, i would say you've got a good point there. so why would anyone do that? you know, a couple of reasons, a whole group of politicians he believed something i've done, michelle, as light as possible. we can do the reforms only to smile more when you're doing them. angel or more collaborative. are they right? it depends on the school district. unfortunately there are a lot of school districts, too many with the same profile as d.c. i don't think you can get away

with it. there's another way of answering this question, because i recall asking it of kevin johnson. i thought here is a politician who's also emerged in education issues and went door-to-door campaigning there and i asked kevin, i said speaking of the mayor, why would anybody reach out for michelle rhee kind of person considering what happened? and he said, you know, people like us, we are just so desperate to make a dent in some kind of improvement in the urban school districts. and so it is going to happen, they are going to start reaching out. he offered this avalanche of offers that came to michelle after she stepped out. so i think kevin is right. these reforms are going to be tried again and again, not just the michelle light version. so now i'll pass it to michelle who amazed me by agreeing to talk about her relations with the press, probably our least

favorite topic, but considering this is organized by education writers association, she played along as a good sport. so over to you. >> my relations with the press. i think my relationship with the press was complicated. let me say on the first time that a lot of very good things happened because of the press attention that we got come with the efforts we are putting forth. i was really surprised to tell you the truth when i started a job that it was so much interest in what we were doing. i at first, you know, i would often go out to dinner with richard and sean and we were sort of talk about how strange it was. at first i really thought it was because the visual was so stark. theirs is korean american woman who was young, who has never in

a school much less a school district. and now she's taken on the job and mostly african-americans, a city, it is such a stark visual, i thought that was what was sort of driving this, the interest in the news. and i thought it was dissipating over time. and try as we might it did not happen. and it just seems like the press interest and intensity actually increased over time. and i remember having dinner one night with a journalist here in the city, and i sort of was lamenting, had he particularly challenging present-day that day. and i said i don't get it. i mean, there's a fight in the cafeteria at some high school in new york city, i can guarantee that the new times is not covering that. but what's going on in the "washington post" is covering every single thing that is happening and i don't get it. he looked at me and he said, i

can tell you why there's so much interest. he said it's because you give good quote. [laughter] >> he said, you say the things that we know people are probably thinking in their heads, but they are trained to do better, stick to the talking points. and you actually say those things. you say that there are some teachers who are not so good and need to, you know, the renewed. so that's why the press was you because you will say those things. so i thought that was interesting. i will say this, if i'm allowed to say this, as per usual -- [laughter] -- i think that there were people in the media who were extraordinarily helpful to us in the effort. and i honestly don't think that we could have done the work that

we did without some of the media actually backing us 100% of the way, and when things can spiral out of control with what people were thinking of what the blogs were saying this sort of the voice of reason. and i couldn't trace that i wouldn't trade that for anything because it was a venue through which it was this consistent voicing this is the right sometimes, but mostly it was right. that was extraordinary helpful in the effort. i also bill will tell you that we made a ton of mistakes when it came to the media. it's funny because starting from very early on in my tenure, people would make comments to either me or my staff saying, you guys have the best pr machine ever. i mean, you're getting covered by all these major national news outlets. i mean, there's this mastermind

behind it. and little did they know, it was a bunch of 24-year-olds running around with no idea what we're doing. we didn't really have a preston scott per se, and somehow people thought it was the pr press wishing. actually was the lack thereof actually. and we naïvely thought we are going to put our heads down, we're going to work hard and do the right thing and then we will produce results. and that is really what matters, just making sure that we are focused on the right things and we are producing results. and i think that we very much underestimated the power that the media would have in shaping the message. and so we ended up with was a situation where the teachers were sort of -- they were getting messages and they were reading things in the newspaper or on the blogs. and they were giving the sort of

message and the communications shaped in their heads. and we, this isn't our fault on this, we did not do our part to sort of send a different message proactively. and so, without some of those things that people are saying, they are nuts. nobody will believe that. but in absence of us putting anything different out, it actually stuck in people's heads and that became the narrative. and that's where we really fell down and all of us. and interestingly enough, there's people here that will remember back in the day we would say to superintendents, do not advocate taking medication directly to teachers to the union. you have to be directly key meeting with your teachers and then after we took over the school district, we just fell in the same trap and we didn't do that. so i would say that, that my

sort of, i think our biggest challenge and my biggest lesson learned in all of this has to do with that communication, specifically to the teachers. not necessarily the rest of the public, you take what you take and whatnot, but really did not serve us what was the fact we were not drug seeking and getting to teachers. so, complicated stuff. like i said, both good and bad. i would actually say that because of the national attention that we got for the effort, we got a lot of support. i don't think we ever would've gotten the $65 million in foundations of support for the efforts that we were embarked on from national organizations, and less they believe that what we're doing here was going to have a national impact. and that would not have happened were it not for the press, the media that when called and effort. so i'd say good, not so good on the not so good side.

it was just a lot we could of done better. >> before we turned over to questions, i was hoping to get michelle to answer one more thing on this issue, because i felt with such an interesting conversation about the whole time cover. that by the way back to is the backup time cover, the one species the ones they were supposed to use. >> as opposed to the one with a broom. and i was think what we thinking? by hindsight, what would have made a difference? what if they needed that had been with you at the time? no, you may not do this with a broom. i don't know if you just, you an interesting and to do with you should have a pr adviser there and things like this. >> well, so, i like to travel a little. i like to do my own thing. and you know, people would often when i was show up someplace, they would look around and say what are your staff? and i would say they are at the

office working where they should be, not following me around. so that was just my thought in all of this, i mean, i'm a school district superintendent, i'm not, you know, a movie star, one of these people, i don't need folks following me around. just doing my job. and i will say about the time cover, that's the picture they told me they're going with until three days before it came out, that i actually, i think, i don't regret that cover. i regret that people took at the wrong way. you know, people took and took it to men -- to me that i was too many people and that sort of thing. that was not at all. i saw the broom as a symbol of needing a clean sweep this. literally sort of sweeping change, needing to clean house. and i don't think that there's anybody in economic you with the about the fact that we absolutely have to have sweeping

changes in what we are doing. we could not flickr around the edges and spent another 10 years trying to get 10 more percentage point gains for the children in washington, d.c.. it wasn't good enough for them. >> well, now we really would like to take questions from all of you either for richard or for michelle. anybody up here. susan? >> michelle, i can't remember whether it was the "waiting for superman" or some thing else were you in discussion with geoffrey canada, and he made the observation about the fact that many of the people that this change is meant to benefit are opposed to it. and how disturbing that is. and i wonder if you could comment on that in terms of the

most active parents and community members being not rationing the reason for the change. >> so, i think there are a few distinctions that are important. oftentimes people would portray the opposition to what we are doing as parents. parents don't like you. parents don't like these changes. and certainly the majority of people who disagree are the disclosure plan where parents. at the people sort of opposed every step we took, they were not a large group of parents. parents were actually seen the improvements that were being made everyday. it was i was a more for general committee numbers who were unhappy with our approach. and i would also say that richard touches a bit on this in

the book, and i only sort of learned about this through his reporting actually, was that he talks in a book about having done a poll in ward seven, and asking people about questions, of education and me ask questions, what with a school like before they took over. and the fact that the majority people felt like the schools were awful. now the majority felt the schools are heading in the right direction and they could see the improvements. that was also echoed in the last "washington post" poll that we saw the also said record numbers of citizens in the city were feeling hardened and positive about school reform. but when richard asked the question -- not richard, but the pollsters asked the question, was it necessary to fire the

teachers in order to see the gains? and they said no. so they knew the school had gotten a lot better, but they didn't think that the steps that have been taken were necessary to get there. and that was a huge aha moment only because what i realize what's we have not done a good job on connecting the dots for people. we are not just firing people because it's fun and we like it. it's not fun. it's not a pleasant situation to be in, but because we believe that the steps that we're taking, whether with terminations, school closures, et cetera, were all linked to the products that they were definitely seeing on the backend which was higher quality, instruction and leadership in the schools. that was our fault speaker just add, michelle points out, yes, i did some polling their but i also, susan middle school is a polling spot. so on that day, on primary day i

met people coming out and i asked them about this. and i went to sousa was a school in "waiting for superman," the worst in the world essentially. and a lot was that mistake for this mayoral collection country and election. it wasn't there during the primary at all because it was very harsh attitudes towards the reforms. and i thought this is a school with these parents and is communicating anything, had everything to lose, this would be it. and i was shocked anything parents coming out. it all comes back to the firings actually. that's what huge resentment on the firings and there was almost zero defense among people that i talk to the the firings that took place at sousa had anything

to do with that school improving dramatically, which is, i mean, nothing, no connection at all. and i thought that was pretty striking. [inaudible] >> your process as a writer, a lot of competing narratives around your time is chancellor edges how you chose to include those or balance those and make decisions about what was valid for inclusion in your book? >> just sort of how you chose the balance on the competing narratives about what was happening and what you chose, why you chose to include certain narratives. >> it's a great question. my book is only of the week and already i'm being trashed in a lot of places. but i knew that it would. you know, you've only got one

shot at doing this book. the question is how we going to spin your 270 pages? do you always have, you know, opposing views and opposing voices, this kind of thing? or do set off and try to answer one big question? and to me the question was you know, can an urban school district like d.c. be turned around, was this the right strategy, wasn't working and should school districts follow that strategy? and so although there's a biography in there, and funky i think that's the most fun part of the book is michelle growing up. if things happen in her life that were not relevant to answering that question, i counted some electives come to this position, they got tossed. you know, i debated a long time and i'm really getting criticized for this, why did you have a chapter into giving fire teachers and the impact of his head on them.

i think this gets to the heart of your question. and believe me, i thought about doing it just to avoid the inevitable criticism, because if this had been a book about d.c. and impact on d.c., that obvious he would have done that but that's not what this book was. this book was again, was the right strategy chosen? wasn't working? should other school districts pursue this? essentially it's a national question. so i deliberately, i did not do that. and i thought it was going to profile teachers, it should be teachers who were brought in that made a difference, which is why you keep talking about this sousa chapter here, maybe because it's such a dramatic turnaround, it was a done by jordan to bring in effective teachers this. not just bringing them in. he was never around. he was always in a classroom telling them how to teach. is a funny anecdote in the book. i would arrive sometimes for

images at sousa and like there was no -- he was out cooling my heels in the outer office. to one could really care less about me. to put it that way. i was not a big priority in his life. his priority was out there in the classroom. so i would have to beg and weave my way to fights and teachers. it was very funny. at first i was kind of offended then i realized he's got one thing on his mind. i digress but that's why i didn't include those, the broader picture and had this very narrow narrative, if you will. and they get to that and i will take my lumps on it. but you have to understand the pages. so how are you going to use them? i had a question for michelle. i'm happy to be invited to book

party. there are a couple of premises in your i don't necessarily agree with on no child left behind and its impact on high school. i think it was meant to really shake the system. and i think michelle came in and really did challenge the and try to take that on in the district's high school. but i would like to know if during your tenure if there had been other school chancellors around the country that had come to even quietly to ask how they can do what you were doing, even if there were maybe afraid to take it on. so publicly as you did. >> if you didn't of the question, repeat the question. >> my question more to michelle, my commentary was, did other school chancellors or superintendents or others that were in a position that you were in and trying to really shake up the district schools, did anyone

come to give an quietly to sort of ask how you were doing it or what it was taking for you to have the ability to do what you were doing, even if they didn't want to publicly be known for that? >> superintendents or chancellors come to michelle and ask her what she was really doing and what was the method to her, not madness, but, you know, and was that something that they could emulate, is that the gist of it? >> i had mostly people who were just coming into their jobs, who are trying to get a lay of the land and trying to understand i think before they really got up and running, with the challenges were, why i made the decisions that i made, was i happy with those or not. lots of folks who came to me to ask about school closures. when we close at 23 schools in

d.c., no other district has ever cause anything close to that in one shot. and after we did it, a number of other cities it did occur, so we definitely got a lot of questions about the school closures in particular. >> michelle, what did you think of the arbitrator's decision the day before yesterday? are there lessons to be learned from it? and if it's fair to ask kya a question, why haven't you said what you going to appeal that? >> not my place. [laughter] >> i'm happy to answer that question. and i'm so glad because now that i'm not in the job i can really answer the way i believe. it's a crock that decision was an absolute crock. i mean, if you look at what arbitrators said, yeah, these people were not good, right? and if you look at what we are -- and i still say we? what we are required to do in

order to remove a probationary teacher from their position, what the letter of the law states, we absolutely met. what he was saying we did not do was an explanation of why to the teachers. that's nowhere in the requirements. of what is necessary. so i have no idea what that man was thinking. in fact, we were actually, you know, advised our counsel, you know, when you have terminations you actually don't go into long things with people about why and what not. you know, you meet the letter of the law and that's exactly what happened so i think that decision was absolutely incorrect. i'm confident that it is, if it is appealed it will be turned over. >> of the questions? one more.

>> i had 10. but i will do one. i'm curious as a journalist how do you react to this narrative of your tenure, and what is the one thing you would have told differently if you are describing it in your own book? >> did everyone hear that? how did she react to this narrative of your tenure, and how would you -- what is the one thing you would add if you are to be writing the book yourself? >> that's a real uncomfortable question, right? [laughter] >> i -- let's see, what did i think about the book? i -- yeah. [laughter] >> what is your reaction -- [inaudible] [laughter] >> what's one thing you would

add? >> potentially, and i think a little bit of this through the sousa chapter, but if i were to add anything to this, i would try to add the voice of kids. i talk to kids. i get my energy from children. the difference between you and other adults is that most adults love their own children, but for some reason you like all children. and i do. i like adults far less than i like kids. and so, this city is full of children who have so much potential, so much talent. i mean, they are just absolutely amazing kids. and they've never ceased to amaze me, when i was talking to little kindergartners or my student cabinet, who i grew very close with in all three years that i was there. and i still get e-mails from all

the time. the children of this city are absolutely phenomenal. and the one thing, the one thread that i regret not seeing in this is the voice of at least one student and what their experiences were over that three-year period and what they saw, both from the school site and then maybe also from like a community site. i think that would have been, would have been a nice addition. >> do you want to talk about that at all? did you think about that? the 270 pages -- >> the 270 pages, partly my long years at "usa today," we would get lectures on the editors on losing eyeballs. this means if you watch somebody read a newspaper and they skipped to the next page, you have lost their eyeballs. you've got to get to the point of the story where they are gone. and when i'm reading, tina, i understand what you're saying,

but i was afraid of losing the eyeballs. .. >> so it was literally one of the mosttisting functional schools we had true to "the washington post" calling it an academic sink hole. i started hearing things early on in the year that things were looking up, things were looking better, and in that first year i don't think i was actually able to visit the school. i saw, after the school year,

their test score gains which were almost unpleeivel. -- unbelievable. sometimes when we see gains, you kind of wonder whether those are real or not. i saw a number of schools like that, and i visited all of the schools. and i will tell you in be some of those schools i thought, really? this is a school, i walked in, and every classroom that i walked into the children were engaged 100%. they were all wearing uniforms, their uniforms were tucked in. this was a school that, literally, i would absolutely send comfortable sending my own children to 100% in that short a time period which is a huge thing. so i wanted to kind of understand why, what had happened and what the perspective of others was, so i decided to hold a teacher listening session there the next week, and i show up at 3:15, and i get out of the car, and the kids are just getting out of school. so i'm walking into the school, and all of a sudden the kids see

me, and they're like, chancellor rhee, chancellor rhee! i'm thinking, this is strange. usually, the kids are looking at me like who's the chinese lady walking around? [laughter] they're hugging me, and be they're taking their picture with me, and i thought it was a little strange. so i started talking to the little kids, and i was talking to one young man, and i said what elementary school did you go to? it was down the street. and i said do you think that that school prepared you for the rigors here at souza? he said, well, it's really different. i said, how so? he said, well, the teachers here teach. [laughter] and i said, okay, what does that mean? he said, well, they really teach us to think outside the box. and this is a sixth grader who's saying this, right? and so it was interesting just to sort of hear from the kids' perfect perspective. they were all telling me what they thought about both their elementary school experience, how it differed from their

middle school experience, they could articulate what the differences were and how they felt, you know, differently coming to school every day. so when you hear it from that perspective, it just gives you a different appreciation. >> okay, point taken. [laughter] and next book i'm going to let michelle interview the kids. [laughter] if i could just jump in with a quick question here because it was alluded to the high school dilemma, if you will. when michelle took over, there were ten so-called comprehensive high schools, and they were all failing, if you will, by nclb. and michelle realized she couldn't take them all on at once. i don't know why i'm putting words in your mouth, but with you took them on a few at a time, and it was rough sledding. i focused on one, dunbar, which did really well for one year and then ran into some huge problems. and, you know, i came away from this whole thing not really that encouraged about the possibility of turning around a failing high

school. i'm not saying it can't be done, but what's your hindsight here? >> it is extraordinarily difficult. there are very, very few examples in this country of what we were trying to do which is taking over a large comprehensive high school as is with the existing students and seeing a massive turn around. i'm very proud to say one of them that happened in this country was led by my fiance, kevin johnson, in sacramento. that effort, though, took five years. the huge two years they didn't see huge academic gains. what they saw was a change in the culture and expectation. and last week i took some of my taffe because we're relocating to creme -- creme to for a visit, and it was fascinating because that school which, when they took it over, was a failing school by any measure about to be taken over by the state, etc. there's not a single security guard, there are no metal detectors, i mean, it's a

completely different school now. but it is one of just a few in the country that has managed to get there, and it was not an overnight work of art. it was, now i think they're seven years into it. and they're still learning lessons about what still needs to be done. >> i can attest to that as a reporter for "education week." i visited that first year, and it was very much a work in progress, but there was a huge change already, but, you know, it took a while. >> yeah. >> interesting. we have time for one more question. >> i have a question for both of you with. i have a 6-year-old who's in d.c. public schools, he's at stoddard, and we love the school, and most of the parents do. but the question is the thing you just raised which is what do you do when they reach high school age? this and most of us who live in d.c. think we with either have to go to private school, or we have to move out to the suburbs. i was born -- raised in public

schools, so i'm a believer in that, but then the realities of what do you do for your own kids. and the question that i have for you, michelle, is, you know, you mentioned five years for a turn around in a high school. how much time do you think you needed here to really make a complete change? oops, sorry. you know, my son's elementary school is great. we love it, middle school isn't so much of a problem, but high school really is the sort of barrier, and what did you think if you could sort of project, what was your timeline in your head for, you know, a real change to be affected in the school system? >> repeat that from the perspective of a parent who, you know, doesn't have a lot of time to wait for schools to get better because their children only have one shot at an education. michelle, how, what was your timeline? how long do you think it really would have taken you to get the schools to the point where

everyone in this room would feel comfortable sending their own children to them? >> when, when mayor fenty and i started our effort together, we talked about the transformation of the school district for two terms over an eight-year period. and not that at the end of eight years everything would be perfect, but at the end of eight years we really felt that the entire city would be able to look back and say this is a wildly different school district than it was when they got started. and, you know, it's interesting because during my three and a half years here, i was with often greeted with advice, maybe, from these people who would say you need to slow down. you are doing -- you're trying to do too much too fast, and you need to understand that change doesn't happen overnight. and i will tell you that none of the people who said that to me had children in the d.c. public

schools. see, i have my children in the school district, and i knew every single day that every decision that i was making was going to impact them one way or another. and i, i simply wasn't willing to say that, you know, to another family, okay, just give me five more years, and then the school that your kid is at listen better. and -- will be all better. and that's part of the reason why i came out in favor of the opportunity scholarships program, and also the efective charter schools because i said i don't want any parent to have to wait until i fix that high school or i fix that middle school or i fix that elementary school. they should have the right to have their children attend a high quality school today. and i hope that a lot of them stick with me. but my effort has to be focused on changing them as quickly as humanly possible, to use a fenty phrase, and hope that what we

were doing was so high quality then it brought people potentially back. but i was not going to close the door and lock people in and say you've got to take one for the team and have your kid suffer through the next few years while we're trying to fix this system. >> because i'd like to end the q&a on a positive note, i think i will not respond to that question. [laughter] but i or already, you know, have described -- i was stunned by just, i mean, i knew going in nationally how difficult it is to turn around an urban high school, and, you know, i thought i was watching one, you know? but it didn't really make it that far past in year two. and it's -- like i said, i will end on a positive note, and, you know, there are some other people here i tried to identify who maybe have come in. i think sean branch is here now. could you raise your hand? corner e him, he's the one who rescued me when i showed up on

the wrong day for the interview. did jim sandman ever make it? anyway, but, listen, i appreciate everyone coming, and we want some mingling and some book signing opportunities. the books are being given away by the publisher, and i'll be there as long as my voice -- actually, as long as my hand holds out. so thank you very much for coming, appreciate it. ms. . [applause] >> for more information visit the book's web site, the bee eater.com. >> you're watching booktv on c-span2. 48 hours of nonfiction authors and books every weekend. >> dr. bush, how did the juvenile justice system get started in this country?

>> well, it got started right around the turn of the 20th century. the first juvenile court law was passed in illinois in 1899 establishing a separate court for juveniles, and along with it came separate institutions for juvenile offenders. the system was so popular that it was copied by almost every other state in the union by the 1920s. texas adopted a juvenile court law in 1907. >> and you write that the juvenile justice system has failed in this country. why do you think that it's failed? >> well, it's failed pause it's failed to live up to its founding promise which was, basically, that it would establish a more protective system for youthful offenders. the juvenile justice system was founded on the concept that children were different from adult offenders, that they were less responsible for their offenses and that they were more capable of being rehabilitated. so juveniles were supposed to be separated from adults and

treated differently from adults. it really failed to do that. today it's very common place to see abuse scandals in juvenile institutions that are scarcely different from adult prisons. juvenile courts have adopted most of the same procedural features as adult courts, so to many critics -- and i guess i would include myself in that group -- it really has failed. >> tell us a little bit about the scandal in a west texas state school that caught the public's anticipation and sort of fueled -- attention and sort of fueled this issue. >> well, the scandal broke in the news media in early 2007, and it was a sex abuse scandal. as we're sitting here right now, the last major figure in that scandal is on trial four years after that scandal, just to give you an idea how long it's really been going on. in this case, a couple of administrators at one of facilities in a remote area of west texas were coercing sexual

favors from boy inmates, several of them. using their power as administrators. this went on for years, and it was basically covered up by higher ups within the state agency that oversaw that institution. and it was finally leaked out and then publicized. >> and what is a superpredator? >> superpredator is a word that was coined in the mid 1990s by a criminologist named john de eulio, and it was originally intended to mean kids who with kill without remorse, without conscious and sort of randomly. really captured in some of the popular movies of the period like "natural born killers." and in the mid 1990s you'll recall there really was kind of a national panic over violent juvenile crime, and that word became attached to that panic. the word also carried kind of a

highly racial connotation to it, it seemed to many critics to refer to african-american and latino juveniles who were increasingly overrepresented in the incarcerated juvenile population. >> so what role do you think race plays in the problems with our juvenile justice system? >> i think it's really central in a lot of ways, and i'm certainly not alone in thinking that. whether you want to believe that youth of color commit more crimes as some conservative critics believe, or you want to believe that the system actively discriminate against them or institutionally discriminates against them in some way. there's no doubt that race is a central factor in the juvenile justice system. >> how is texas a good case study for problems throughout the entire country? >> well, texas throughout much of the 20th century was one of the largest juvenile justice systems in the country just in terms of of the number of youths and the number of institutions that it managed.

it's also a useful case study just because of the political and economic clout that the state has come to acquire over the course of the last 50 or 60 years. it's one of the largest states, it's one of the most demographically diverse states, it's one of the most geographically diverse states, and it's one of the most politically powerful states. several recent u.s. presidents have come from texas, several important national legislators have come from texas. >> what -- why did you want to write this book? what was the impetus to get you started? >> um, my impetus to get started on this book really was an interest in how we as a society decide who the good kids are and who the bad kids are and then what is to be done with them. and i initially began looking at popular churl and -- cultural and representation of youth, and be then i became dissatisfy with the that and decided i needed to

look at real kids and real policies and institutions that effected them. >> so where does after all of your research, where do texas and other states go from here? have grow seen improvement -- have you seen improvement as you were writing the book? >> well, there's been a lot that's changed since i finished the book. as we sit here, the legislature is considering abolishing the agency that oversees juvenile justice in texas. several large facilities have been shut down as i was finishing the book. lots of kids have been sent back to their communities, and there really is a movement to move away from big institutions again and towards community-based facilities. and part of that is being driven by the budget crises that are affecting many states across the country including texas which has something like a $27 billion deficit to deal with right now. so that's really fueling a lot of this sort of progressive movement in some ways. >> well, great.

dr. bush, thank you very much. >> thank you. >> according to a list from publishers' weekly, here are ten business-related books that are due to release this spring.

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>> about five years ago i got a letter from a teacher that i had in eighth grade in chicago. she had saved one of my papers that i had written about thanksgiving -- >> she must have really liked this paper. >> she really liked this paper. and she mailed it to me, and she said, i've kept this all these years because it was up with of the best paper -- one of the best papers i had gotten from a student. and i read that paper, and i was going, hey! [laughter] i was really good. [laughter] >> what was the paper about? >> thanksgiving. >> the blessings of thanksgiving. >> kind of what it meant to me, i don't know. >> is it on your refrigerator now i at your house? >> it's in some box with all my memorabilia. but it was remarkable that she had saved that. but anyhow, apparently, i did write pretty well, and i had an

english teacher that said you need to join the high school newspaper. and i had never thought of writing. i actually liked acting. i was in a lot of plays and things like that which i'm very grateful i was with now because that helped me as a television broadcaster. >> with your voice and your -- >> learning how to use and project your voice and not being afraid to get in front of people and speak. so i joined the newspaper, and they gave me a column called "division news." they weren't home rooms then, they were called divisions, and my job was to go around to all the home rooms and intersee people about what was going on with the -- interview people about what was going on. [laughter] >> great. >> kind of a gossip column, who won the spelling bee and who won the science fair -- >> yeah. >> but i enjoyed so much having access that me, carol, could go around to these rooms and talk

to the teachers and talk to the students and know things before anybody else knew them and then write them up and see my byline? oh, my goodness. well, you must feel the same way. [laughter] >> it ises the same. >> isn't it a heady? it's kind of a heady experience. >> yes, indeed. and so you make the decision that this is going to be your life's work. >> i loved it. i'm like, i love this, okay? >> the attention, the access -- >> people coming up to me wanting to tell me information. >> right, right. >> and i was a curious child who read a lot. i guess i e was pretty nerdy -- i guess i was pretty nerdy, but it all worked. the reading, the writing, the access and being able to ask questions and get answers. it was just wonderful, and i said, this is what i want to do. but did i know anybody black who was a reporter?

did i know anybody white woman that was a reporter or any woman? all i knew was lowe lane -- >> from -- lois lane -- >> from superman. >> but the idea, i knew there was a chicago tribune and a "chicago sun-times" and the chicago daily news, there were all kinds of great newspapers in chicago at the time, and my parents were avid newspaper readers. so seeing the bylines in the newspaper there and that people were covering things about murders and fires and politics, i just decided that's -- i had to do that. >> and you go, and you tell your parents this is what you've decided, you want a career as a journalist. what do they say? [laughter] >> silly girl. silly little girl. you can't be a journalist. women don't do that.

and, certainly, black women don't do that. you need to go become a teacher, so you can take care of yourself. you can always get a teaching job. but we don't want to spend tuition -- it was a struggle for them to get my tuition together for me. and it was, like, you need to be a teacher or a nurse or a social worker. that's just about all the things young women in the early '60s would aspire to. and i was just, no, i don't want to do that. i really want to do this. so there were a lot of fights in my household and a lot of slamming of my door and putting my foot down. >> right. >> and, again, this was the first no, no, you can't do this. and i was just determined. and finally, they saw i was, i was not going to be happy, i was not going to be a good person to live with unless i got this opportunity. >> right.

of. >> so they supported me, and i thank god for having supportive parents who didn't go to college but made sure me and my sister did. >> and then at some point you hear a second no, the second of many noes when you apply to school, northwestern. >> northwestern university in evanston, illinois, was right outside chicago and that's where e wanted to go because at the time it was one of the best journalism schools in the country. and i had great grades, as i told you, i was in all kinds of activities and things. and i had a b plus/a minus average from high school, and little did i know there was a quo that system going on. they've acknowledged it now. there was a quo that of the number of jews and blacks they

took into the college. so i went to this admissions counselor, and he tells me i was wasting my time, that i needed to go become a nice english teacher, that i could get a job, but i'd never get a job working for the chicago tribune. so i knew what was going to happen, and i got the rejection notice a few weeks later. we regret to inform you that -- i remember those first words. >> in a thin envelope. >> thin envelope, no forms to fill out. no housing -- [laughter] little tiny letter. and i was, like, and my parents, thank god, didn't say we told you so, but i said, well, i'm applying some place else. >> and you do just that, and you end up eventually graduating from where and what year? >> university of michigan, and why do you want the year, so everybody will know how old i am? [laughter] >> well, never mind. >> 1962. >> 1962.

university of michigan, and you did well in school? >> i did well in school again, and there were 60 graduates in my class from journalism, and everyone had a job at graduation time except me. >> the little red hen did not have a job again. >> and so i went to work at the chicago public library where i had work withed every summer from the -- worked every summer from the time i was 15 years old. here i am with a degree, and i'm going back to my high school job, my college summer job. and i was disappointed, but i just felt something' going to happen, something's going to happen. and i got this call from my dean of the school saying that he had lined up an internship for me. it didn't look good for the university to have one black student who did not have a job, so he worked very hard to make that happen. and that's how i ended up in

tuskegee. >> you can watch this and other programs online at booktv.org. >> on the go? after words is available via podcast. visit booktv.org and click podcast on the upper left side of the page. select which podcast you'd like to download, and listen to "after words" while you travel. >> journalist, lawyer and trade union leader steve early will be our guest live online on booktv.org on march 8th at 6:30 p.m. eastern. the author will be discussing his book "the civil wars and u.s. labor" at busboys and poets here in washington d.c. in his book, mr. early details the struggles within the labor movement in the last several years and offers strategies for moving forward. simply go to booktv.org on tuesday at 6:30 p.m. eastern, click on the program's watch icon in the featured programs section of the page.