for taking your time and hearing what we have to say with regards to such a critical issue that is facing our world. i come to congo having my first trip been there in 1994 during the rwandan genocide. and so my history with congo is dicey at best. but what i have learned through these years is what is most important and that it is organizations just like this, particularly organizations like eci, that go in and take us -- not only a strong look at what's going on but become active in a community-based level. these ngos, organizations like this, are most important for what we're doing, but we can't do it alone. we're here today to ask all of you -- and i know that all of you in this room right now have been to congo, have taken an active interest in congo. please come. but most importantly, we're

depending on your voice to -- to spread the word. we're going to lose a generation of women and children and congo unless we do something now. i'm only a humanitarian relief worker. that's the only thing i've ever done. it's the only thing i know with regards to this region, but i also know what's right and we can't leave behind these women and children. so we rely on you and we talk to you today with great hope that you will lead this charge and not forget about these wonderful human beings in a rich culture that has so much to offer to this world. i leave it to the experts to tell you today what is most important, but i would hope that you would ask those people who are on the ground to not only to help you but for you to let them know that you are behind them and most importantly to let the women and children know that they are not forgotten. i particularly want to thank ben affleck for allowing me to be a part of this today and for allowing me to be a part of the eci. we are strange political

bedfellows. we're the odd couple perhaps in politics. but that's the beauty of this. because this transcends political parties. so thank you so much for what you are doing. most importantly, thank you for listening to what they have to say, and thank you on behalf of many, many ngo aid workers that are on the ground that need your help. >> mccain, goes to you and to the three other diminished witnesses for leading and leading so well and by pouring yourself into these humanitarian effort. mr. affleck, you know that you've been to and eci actually aids heal africa. could you provide some additional insights into the work of heal africa and other like minded ngos and hospitals that you've supported. >> sure, sure. unfortunately, not many hospitals in that part of the country. and we're initially tracked with them. because of course they're congolese-run and based and that's the kind of organizations that we want to be supporting. sometimes we support grassroots organizations that don't have that level of infrastructure and

you know high level education but these people are -- they're congole congolese-run hospital. started out very small. primarily -- of course fish toola repair. because the need for fish toolas are so urgent there and they have grown they've grown because of their skill, their talent what they're providing and who is doing the work. and it's one of the few that actually has attracted a decent amount of attention from people and they provide just top-level -- i mean, obviously this emergency care. i have visited them when some met you know soldiers, you know who are coming from gunshot wounds. one guy showed me that he'd -- he had his wallet in his pocket and he'd been in the war and took the wallet out and the bullet had gone into his pocket and hit the wallet and saved his life. and you know he'd had some other ones that he was being treated for but it was definitely -- they were on the front lines of the war. and they're on the front lines of building the peace. and you know i don't know what people would do without this kind of hospital there. and they are receiving more. we're working with them. and others are as well.

and you know, they really pretty exceptional. the other of course really well-known hospital. is the hospital. and he's doing exceptional work. he was the guy who is himself personally early on doing ten fishtalas surgeries a day at the height of this epidemic and it still goes on but he doesn't have to do all of the surgeries and then they started training other doctors and became sustainable and those two organizations are spectacular. they're many others that we're working with. part of what we try to do at eci is to recalibrate people's perception about africa and about who is doing what. throw money down there, money down in the rat hole, that's not case at all. really in our experience people who are doing it, sombing these problems, maybe it was congressman payne who was talking about this earlier, this congolese solving the congolese problems and that's so inspiring to me and both of those helicopters are emblematic of it

bif but i have many stories but i will spare you. >> your testimony and mr. pe prendergast. who had actually had has capability diminished, his resources cut, and influence at a time when of course he has been ill recently but even when he had the position, it seems to me that the message we need to send to the white house, because they need to do this, like what i said before yesterday, is to name that special envoy and properly resource that individual. if you both and perhaps any of you who would like to speak to that issue, it seems to me that we don't have a point person who can in a rapid way with the -- president and the secretary of state a phone call away, this wind over opportunity as one of you said in your testimony could quickly evaporate and if we -- you know i was -- and mr. payne

and i were talking about this in between testimonies, you know $5 million expended so far, last time it was about $80 million, and when the administration testifies that there's a $350 million gap that may doom this election unless quick corrective action is taken and a special envoy would have that ability to say we're going to make this happen so if you could speak to that. >> a quick answer and then john could get into the nuance policy detail stuff. but you know, there's a lot going on. we've heard other people talking about what the united states government is doing, what the other folks are doing. a big part of this is about synthesizing all of this stuff. taking all these strands as many of you who know work in the private sector you think have a lot of people doing their stuff and doing their jobs well but not working together. frankly you have a lot of waste. so we've got resources dedicated that are now being frittered away because they're not working collectively, they're not working cohesively.

somebody's supposed to be doing elections. somebody's supposed to be doing gender-based violence. regional governments like ruanda and others and without taking the lead and doing that kind of shuttle diplomacy where they move across those folks, you know, it is just really isn't going to be successful. in fact, we're underutilizing, what we're already deploying, in effect. and i have talked a little bit and i will let john take it. >> just a footnote of what ben is saying there, when i worked in the white house in the state department i just found it to be endlessly frustrating because so many issues and countries were stove piped and kept in their categories and what a special envoy -- and you've got in central africa, you've got crossborder issues, you've got multiple issues that bring equities in from all kinds of different departments throughout the u.s. government. so you need someone to be able to break through this

stovepiping and it can't be a deputy assistant secretary of state who just gets dual hatted to be doing something else besides their regular job which is 20 hours a day anyways with the beeper going off every 30 minutes in the other four hours. you just got to have someone who's full-time job is focused and it's someone with influence, someone that can pick up the phone and say, secretary clinton, it's actually time for you to say or do something now. and someone who can actually move this system, move the needle away from the inertia that just prevades government. this is just where it is. people are well meaning but system is -- it's systemically tilted towards the status quo. to be able to move that needle away from the status quo towards action. that's what you need a special envoy for and we should collectively civil society and the legislative branch press the executive branch to do this as soon as possible. we know president obama moved on the special envoy in -- in sudan

because of george clooney, maybe he'll move it in congo because of ben. >> well, i think eye don't think that it will do with me but from what we've heard and spent a lot of time asking people around this town. ambassador yamamoto and secretary carson, we'd go a long way so i want to urge -- still here and carson, wherever you are, help us out. this can be a collective effort and i know that we can get there. >> thank you. and i couldn't agree more. ms. vigo walsh, in your testimony you referenced the srs problem. by sensitizing communities and local leaders that it's done through training, military and police officials who then become community sensitization leaders. you can tell us how successful that program has been? and secondly, ms. mccain you may want to speak to this as well. the issue of microcredit financing is huge in africa.

and you know dollar for dollar i can't think of a better way to helping to empower women especially because most of those grants or loans i should say, go to women. and with a small amount of money, someone can not only get gainfully employed but they end up hiring four, five, six people in many cases. for those women who've been so sexually abused and traumatized do you find that microcredit financing and job skills helps them to mend not only help provide to themselves and perhaps their families but also as part of the healing process? >> thank you, chairman. with regards to our project where we -- with the catholic church, excuse me, we train transitional justice leaders. the program is critical and it's very effective because we have to step back for a moment and look at the context.

we're talking about a country where there is no rule of law. the justice system is in shambles. so there is nothing but traditional leadership in justice. so the fact of the matter is, we're working in communities where the view of justice still is embedded in cultural ideas that are attached to the stigma. how to overcome the stigma or how to reduce stigma. and what i mean by that is, a girl that is perhaps as young as 14 years old in order to avoid that stigma, she's forced to marry her rapist. and that is the traditional justice system. so we've been working with hundreds and hundreds of justice leaders traditional justice leaders in order to work with them on making their policies shall we say more gender

sensitive and more sensitive to the needs and protection of the women and girls. that's on the first point and with regards to the microcredit financing, absolutely, absolutely critical. and i'm glad that you noted that it is part of the healing process, in fact. through our savings and lending schemes we've had rape survivors that had been ostracised from their communities and their forelost. they're bred winners once their husbands abandoned them and in one particular case that i'm thinking of right now she was actually able to save the equivalent of $600 to build her own house. this is a woman who would had been living in the street quite literally after being ostracised by her community. those time programs work so much on the self-esteem and the self-esteem after rape is so critical to be able to move on

and to be able to remake one's life event in face of being ostracizeed by the community so these programs are critical and i -- and i strongly suggest that they continue to be supported and i do thank the u.s. government for all of the support that we have received for these programs thus far. thank you. >> ms. mccain, did you want to comment? >> the only thing that i would add to that, you're exactly right. microfinancing in my opinion is key to this and so are free and fair elections. and unless we can do both we're never going to have a society of women that will have any kind of rightsa at all. so anything that i would add to that. >> thank you. mr. payne? >> well all right, me certainly thank all you for your testimony, and i think that the interest of all of you in this issue really assists us in

congress to try to highlight the problems without people like you, ms. mccain and mr. affleck and of course mr. prendergast is the agitator behind of this and the work that the catholic services does. we'd probably have a difficult time filling the room probably only have a third of it covered. so i think that people don't realize the importance of people in your categories that you can bring attention to issues and i think it's important once we get the attention, we know what to do you know? congressman smith, myself, and other members of congress. but you do help us highlight the problems. and i really, once again, thank you all for your interest in these issues.

the -- it seems, and it's very clear that we definitely need have a special envoy. i recall maybe john, you remember, when we went with president clinton to africa. and during our time there, we just simply had a meeting of the great lakes region presidents because so much is interrelated. uganda was arguing a little bit. you had rwanda looking over what was happening in zimbabwe. it's so interremelated that a special envoy should not only deal with the problems of the congo, but to be able to coordnate, as a matter uganda was a recipient of a terrorist attack because uganda was assisting in somalia with their

troops to protect the government of shaikh -- and without the ugandan troops there the situation would be much worse. well, that's all connected. that at the world cup game, uganda suffered the loss of 20-some of their citizens by al shabaab planting a bomb as people were simply watching the world cup because they were ugandan troops helping in somali. so it's all so connected that it seems it would certainly make a lot of sense that we do have an envoy especially to deal with the drc, but also to have the -- the surrounding countries they're involved in. the fact that so many -- and the tragedy of the congo, as i mentioned earlier with king

leopold and houtcountry was just devastated and then once they decided to move forward, the -- the conspiracy of the west have come together and have patrice murdered. and, mr. affleck, we can't forget the past. we can't dwell on it. but if we know the past we know the positions that we're in. congo with the leadership of la mom baand those who are emerging at that time could have a total difference on the way the congo is today. but by us propping up mbuta who raped the country for decades and decades, we find ourselves struggling again to try to get democracy moving and trying to get this whole question of rape, which should be despised by society, but it's something that people sort of shrug their shoulders and say, well, that

happens. so i really, like i said, i really commend you for your efforts. i know mrs. walsh, vigaud-walsh, you all work with child soldiers and i know that perhaps some of the abusers who are involved in rape now were probably child soldiers before. so i wonder what your organization is doing as it relates to child soldiers and the drc. >> to illustrate what we are doing with child soldiers, i could speak of a program we had in north chivu and partnership with the cara tacgoma and ca caratas rome as well. we were supporting centers

through which demobilized children -- or children were -- were transported to after being demobilized providing a trauma healing therapy. working with them to prepare them for reintegration back into society. the problem is that clearly these kinds of services aren't enough. the number of children that were needing ddr services in a few years ago was much, much greater than the funding it's level of funding that we had. thank you. >> thank you. >> mr. affleck, maybe you and mr. prendergast, may be able to deal with the question, what do you see us needing on the ground in order to make these elections work? >> welt, first of all, i want to go back to another question they don't think that i answered which is the difference between -- the two lerts stand for stabilization and organization.

the idea being that got an expanded mandate for -- well, stabilization, among other things. and you know, who replaced now in doos, seems to be doing a fine job, he's an american. and people were optimistic and they've been some appreciative changes and now that entity plays a real role obviously in elections. and as you know, you were there, they played an instrumental part in elections the last time. what i hear from people and this environment is well the second election is always harder. still fewer people want to pay attention to. it's the one that could either cement democracy or all fall backward and become unwound. we need to have monitors, we need to have like i say internationally credited monitors. we're hoping the carter center will up the ante a little bit in what they're willing do. i think that our iri will come in. and we need a fully committed effort and frankly we need on --

to maintain that peace of stability. you asked about the fdlr. to sort of more fully address that. where we are right now is that, yes, because of when he got taken away by the rwandaies. they sort of cut a deal. so is kind of de facto leader inside of the fdarc which creates the kind of tension and it's one that has to be mjd by minossko because you arrest him. you may create a lot of problems. may go back to the war that you had before. it's -- it's tricky, when we were there recently, you know, right after we flew out, the hotel -- the airport was the scene of a huge you know shooting and chase and bosko had brought -- and gold. they had brought in a bunch of gold that they were smuggling and a big police chase up there. so a guy acting with a lot of impunity and creating a lot of instability. and you know the kimana rdf,

effortsing to after the fdlr on the flip side which i think represented to get to your question, the further break between the fdlr and the fdrc and kabila and those guys who were kind of on his side durngt war. >> right. >> but it got stopped a bit because fdlr was smarter and knew enough civilian casualties would leave. and come back and kill a lot of civilians. of course left. these entractable thorny issues need to be sombed as well as the other practical electoral stuff. vis-a-vis elections. a lot of political support. they need support. people there saying, this is how we should do it. fully dedicated and it also needs increased diplomatic involvement engagement to help -- to continue to -- and a place where the u.s. has done a lot of really good work, you know? the state department who was over there several years ago and

working closely. you know that we need to continue to push that towards peace. because any of these guys the boskos and so on that -- if those situations flare-up it could easily trigger further stability in the elections. that wasn't more than you wanted to hear but -- >> no, you're pretty up on this stuff. it's really -- you're very impressive. j.p. >> the only thing i would add there and it was indeed a great answer. you are -- >> thank you. him i paid to say that. >> but i would add it -- just actually highlight the diplomatic effort that you just spoke of as part and parcel. and pull the meat on those bones and say, what you need of course as we do in other countries that matter to the united states is you create these unified coordination mechanisms, call them donor coordination, call them diplomatic coordinators, they then craft multilateral carrots and sticks related to

electoral benchmarks, and you deploy them early enough that they can actually influence the process as it unfolds because of course anyone who wants to steal an election is watching to see what the world will do. and if the world does nothing but put out a little press release saying, bad you know, slap on the wrist of course they're going to go ahead because of the reasons that we've talked about for so long. the money it's gravy train will be lost if you lose the election. so we need that -- that multilateral, unified voice of the governments that have influence to develop the carrot stick it's the carrots and sticks, create the watch dog actions that will blow whistles when there are problems and do it early enough, create this thing early enough so you're not just waiting until the day to vote, say, wait a minute, there is something wrong here but we can actually watch and see how it unfolds. we'll know months in advance whether this is going to be a credible election and if the

answer is no thenby can deploy. wait a minute, we will not support this. you will have to change this for anyone to take this seriously and then it's up to the congolese government to develop their own calculation about whether or not they want to reform it. so i think that's what we really -- that's one of the elements of many as ben said that we need to be engaged in to try to make a difference here. >> all right. thank you. my time's just about expired. i won't ask you, ms. mccain about elections. i will just want to say that we -- elections are so important. i just want to remind the chairman that we have the problem in coat devoy who decides i will not leave. this is unbelievable with everyone saying, hey you, echa was, eched, eu, u.s., saying you lost. you should step out and so i think that we really have to keep the pressure on -- to step down and if we could move that legislation forward to have the congress on record with the rest

of the world saying get out because if he stays in, it's going to be a bad example for all of these other elections. they're about a dozen elections coming up in africa this year. and if this is the principle where you lose and you stay and you say, well, i'm not leaving then we're going to be in a world of trouble in these elections coming up including the congo so once again, thank you, all, for your testimony. >> thank you. >> thank you, mr. chairman. question for you, mr. affleck and mrs. mccain. i'm curious. how did you choose the eastern congo as a focus of your passion and interest? the reason that i say that is those of us who sit on this committee and others where global human rights is a concern and deep interest and essential, the insults to humanity, the affrontry that comes across our

desk daily in so many places throughout the world can almost just be exhausting. so i'm curious, how did you choose this particular area? >> yeah. i came to it -- i won't go into my own personal journey because that may be inappropriate for this -- but i think really for me it was -- it was -- in fact i was reading. looking at some other stuff trying to cast around, looking at advocacy and i came across this, well of course it pales into comparison with the millions of daepgts in eastern congo and i was on the one hand really shocked and on the other hand ashamed. how could i not know this? i read the newspaper and yet i had no idea and so i thought well maybe this is a place where i can at least you know show up. i don't know what. and i started studying and i started learning. i took a couple of years. i didn't want to be kind of a celebrity debutante person who doesn't know what they're talking about, irritates everyone, because i didn't think that helps everyone. >> very politic, but very well

received. >> i did a lot of studying. and met about a lot of really learned experts, john among them. and when i foremost among them. and when i ultimately got to a place where i wanted to -- i want to build an organization because that kind of identified the best people, i thought doing the best work with people who had some skin in the game, who are listen in the community every day, who knew the people, who knight militia, knew the children very well. child soldiers out the militia and go to them and address them personally. bargain. at least you don't need him. give me her. and while that was happening, already found a place for the child to live in the village rather than institutional home and the like. and i thought, gosh, this is what happens when something bad happens in your community and you're dealing with it because you know the people and i got struck and i wanted to help empower those folks because of course they had no money. and so we started raised money and i also thought you know nothing changes without advocacy, without powerful

people make up their minds, people like you. and the idea to ultimately sit here and address. it's a real thrill for me. and then i wanted to surround myself with kind of smart, thoughtful philanthropist and you know people who got it and everybody who knows something about this knows how long ms. mccain has been involved in this. in goma in '94 that's a big deal and since then doing a lot of work and so i gave her a call and i hope she wouldn't think it was a prank call. >> well, clearly your investment is -- your time and passion is very genuine and i think it's going to give continuity to this effort and i'm grateful. ms. mccain, did you have anything to add anything. >> everything is always a personal journey and my story is no different. i won't go into this but what i will say is that is, from my own personal well-being, africa has -- has haunted me in a good

way. it has kept me coming back. it -- because i see such hope there, i see such possibilities and i know that with the help of people like mr. affleck and others around the world that we can make a difference and so it's nothing more than personal journey for me as well. but it's one that has kept me coming back and i'm -- and i love it there and i wouldn't rather not be any other place. >> thank you as well for your time and passion on it. i did want to raise a couple of quick issues in the limited time that i have last. mr. prendergast. the culture of rape and the conflict regarding minerals. it's unclear to me what that direct correlation is. if you could spend 20 seconds unpacking that please. >> actually -- >> i have another question, though. [ laughter ] >> well, that -- >> hurry. >> we didn't need a laugh line right before talking about this

because it is so questionably serious. what basically our assessment is that these militia group -- armed groups on the ground including the government army, we always talk about rebels, rebels, there's militias both from rwanda and congo and the government army. they've used the tactic of rape as a weapon to -- >> see i don't think that this point is very clear. and i appreciate you saying there's a correlation there but go ahead. >> to use rape as a tactical war, in order to intimidate local communities to go along with the kind of mafia economy that we're talking about all day today. so i mean in sierra leone they use amputations to terrorize the populations. people use what works and if there is no consequence, if it's impunity reins and then why not this? and other factors involved. i think that you're wanting to say something in there, can i yield some of my time? >> yes, please. >> just to clarify that also a

bit more. it's a displacement mechanism. it moves people out of the areas where these resources are so they can move in and take control of the mines and if you look at where -- >> so this is not just act of deprivity that happens in ungoverns space. it's deliberate, intentional for a larger geopolitical space. >> it's a strategy, absolutely. >> it's both. it's all those things. >> okay. >> you know what i mean? these tactics create an environment which where it seems like anything goes, you know what i mean? but i do absolutely concur from what i've seen from these two folks. it's about armed groups saying we're going after this area and attack them and then it becomes kind of a horrible reality where it's acceptable. >> i call it a culture of rape but i don't know if it's the right description. >> i don't think that it is actually. because the vast majority of congolese are -- absolutely devastated by what's happened to their country. >> and that's why it becomes a powerful weapon. >> yes. >> thank you. >> ms. bess.

>> sir, thank you for your last comment about that. but let me just start by thanking all of you for the work that you do and in particular, mr. affleck, for using your celebrity in this manner. because it's extremely powerful. and it is as the chairman and ranking member said, one of the reasons this issue has received so much attention and the same to you, ms. mccain. i wanted to reference some comments that mr. prendergast. i think that you described it very well. but i wanted to know in your opinion what about the political leadership, is it there? there's an election that's getting ready to happen in november. is there legitimate -- we talked about the elections being legitimate, you know, maybe they will be, maybe they won't, but my question is, is there legitimate political leadership to be elected?

>> well, just in 30 seconds you know, we have this country which for 125, 150 years has been just pillaged by the international community for -- going back to the turn of the century -- or the last centry, ivory and rubber to help our jewelry industry and then auto industry and then the uranium from the congo was critical in our atomic bombs bombs. and what happens is you create a system where -- a political system that basically is designed to maximize private gain. and crater the public sector. because public sector, the rule of law, would undermine this. so you have internal collaborators with this international system but it's a system that benefits us. we've got cheap phones, we've got cheap computers. we had nuclear weapons that

worked. we had pan yocis and the turn of the century with the ivory that was built so in other words this is going on for so long. it's hard to say, suddenly you know, we will turn this around with one election. it's a system that in which the it's termites have absolutely devastated the political foundation of the country, and that has -- until you address that economic foundation i don't think -- it's just a changing chairs on the "titanic" on the deck of the "titanic" with these electoral processes. you have to do both the political and the economic at the same time to make a difference. >> i wanted to ask another question, too. this is about africa. the question is the united states african command or africum has been engaging in pilot changing of one battalion focusing on human rights and unit cohesion conditions and afr

africum is controversial. so my question is should the u.s. expand on this project to address other security needs? and i guess in reference to what you were saying before, you know i remember 20, 30 years ago when there were liberation movements in the various countries and we could talk about how all of those turned out but there were independence and liberation movements and so i don't think that you have described one in the congo. >> you want to say something on this, jump in if you want. no, no i'm saying if you want to say anything after i am done. >> oh, okay. >> the military forum issue i think is -- i think eci if you look at their recommendations, the project and others that have worked on this stuff, military reform, security sector reform sat the top of anyone's list. of what we need to invest in. and now you go to congo and spend time with the congolese leadership and what militaries do they respect? it's not a surprise. the united states military. so when the u.s. comes in and says we're going to train a battalion in kissing ghani this

makes a difference to them. people are getting -- bumping each other out of line to sign up to be part of this so the united states has influence. it has leverage on this one and here's one where if we work more aggressively to get this -- and this is why you need a special envoy because we don't have enough diplomatic firepower with the existing system to be able to to do this kind of full-time work is to get the donors together who do military training like china, like south africa, like angola the countries who have influence with the congolese government, we work together with them about a systemic reform of the military and then africam becomes a major player in that and specifically highlight one other element from the security sector and that's military justice. again we have a comparentive advantage there. they respect us on this front. you've got to get this impunity issue, getting it at the impunity issue within the military even as much or maybe more important within it's than within the broader society. you start to see convictions for -- for rapes and for other kinds of crimes in congo of

military officers or soldiers who are involved in this kind of stuff. then we're going to -- that sends a signal so there's the building blocks to a state and i think africum for all of the controversy and other fronts can play a major important role in the congo in helping to build that particular block of the larger foundation. >> thank you. >> yeah i think the relevance of africum there has to deal with -- look, monossko does off. training now. they work together, they train guys. they're having difficulties. we're better at it than they are. i met some of our guys down there doing some of this work. obviously they're great guys. u.s. military. they really know what they're doing, men and women. they're doing -- just training very few units. that's good. it needs to happen. and i hate to have all of these answers woman caviates and then i don't want it to feel like, well you have to do everything, but really there has to be accompanied by some reformed units that they have to go back. huge, huge problems is soldiers don't get paid. the legacy.

destroyed the infrastructure. eaten up all of the money. there's a little bit of that left. not a little bit, a lot, unfortunately. i have visited the battlion camps like tent cities. a little better than the revfeefgy camps in fact they often go and loot and pilliage in those camps. are responsible for 40%. some say of the rapes in the country. where you have a military that's deployed among the population that's feeding off of the population. it's not imaginable to us. this is a horrible i version of that. i think they just took the divisions out of there. that's not practical politically, but what is practical is to go around and just train troops on one side. i would love for us to take over a little biltmore or do training of the guys, but on the other side, get people paid. make $40 a month being a soldier, but at least it's enough to buy what you need where you're not compelled to. i mean, they walk.

it's 800 miles. they walk that far. you know, it's like ancient rome. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i'd like you to respond to the need for pepfar being money being included for the congo in the treatment particularly in terms of maternal infant transmission of aids and the fact that pepfar does not affect the congo. that's one thing i'd like. and the second thing is, i think you get a little more humble as you go along in this business. and you realize that passing a bill isn'ting that it's cut out to be. you can have the champagne, have a good time and clap your hands and be happy. it really is writing the rules and regulation where it really happens. and that's going on right now. and i would like you, john, to

talk about what the committee can do. because you put this up as an action item. what the committee should be looking for in the writing those rules and regulations as to whether they are good rules and regulations or rather they're slippery. i've been doing this long enough to know that you can't hardly write a law that somebody can't figure out a way to get around. so what i'm really looking for is the best set of rules and regulations that we can have to make this law work and what things we as a committee should be looking at, or we as a congress should be looking at. >> congressman mcdermott, i'm sorry, i can't answer that question because i don't work in aids relief and i'm not familiar with that kind of programming. >> i don't know the specific answer on pepfar, but i think

between us, between our staffs, we can get back. >> i know it's a problem in africa in goma because i know where they're getting their drugs. >> right, they are short on drugs. in fact, particularly -- what was the program? anyway, there are shortages. pepfar is a great program and obviously people get access to those drugs and it's important. we could furnish the committee with details of that. >> i was asking a softball so you could let the committee know, but go ahead. more tough question is the regulations. >> i think that the top two i would say for the s.e.c. regulations, they're getting bombarded right now because the industry, you know, lost that battle on the hill. and they are mad, and they're coming back with the los of lobbyists to try to press the s.e.c. to water this thing down. like you said, so keep the cork?

the champagne yet, you're absolutely right. number one, i think that there be stiff fines for companies that do not fly with the intent of the law. do not open up the books to demonstrate that their supply chains are indeed free of conflict. and if they're not, they're acknowledging we got it from there and yes we know where it came from and consumers you can make your choices. but if you try to hide it, circumstance uvent it, then ser fines. secondly, i think is the question of when this all should come into effect. and i think one of the big things that you're seeing lobbyists push for now is a significant delay in implementation. we haven't yet seen the state department make its own recommendations in this regard, but i talked to a senior member of the administration last night who said that they were going to not advocate for a delay. i hope that his opinion is

actually the -- ends up being the u.s. government's opinion. but right now the s.e. krmplgc. hearing from industry sources that they can't comply with all this. although other companies, you know, particularly within the electronics industry, they've been working on this now for a couple years, partly as a response to the legislation but partly also because some of them want to do the right thing, and they've shown very clearly that they can do what is required to do with respect to the law. apple, you know, a year and a half ago apple was not much of a contributor to the electronics industry association and its efforts to try to clean uppity supply chain. basically, their argument, if you talked to them about it was look, we have no idea where this stuff is coming from. how can we possibly be expected to know? it's a war down there and where it comes from is not really something we can control. well, a week ago, now we've had the legislation, we've had mr.

jobs actually get personally engaged, and his wife, and now a week ago apple put out whatever report that it does, and it was the most robust reporting of any company on where their materials are coming from. right down to the smelters, to the processors. i mean, this is something, again, the lobbyists said a year ago even that were working for apple said it was impossible. you know, basically, i think this is what the legislation is going to be able to do. it's going to urge people to actually do the right thing when they've said for quite a long time they can't. they actually can, so the question is how fast are they going to have to do it? and instead of, you know, a delay of a delay or two years or whatever some of these guys are asking for, we'd like to see the timely implementation of the regulations and to come into force very quickly after the s.e.c. makes its rulings. >> keep on making the publicity to keep it up above the radar. thank you.

>> thank you. just to add one note, catholic relief services did write the s.e.c. to ask for the absolutely most strongest rules possible. and we hope for the timely implementation as well. thank you. >> thank you. >> thank you, mr. mcdermott. any final thoughts? >> i just want to say that we do have to really make sure that they don't change, what was interesting years ago i was able to encourage congressman tancredo who was working with me on sudan to get a bill passed in the house that capital market sanctions were put in. in other words, if you were doing business with them, you had to come out of wall street. and we passed it in the house. that's where it ended.

the lobbyists ran over to the senate, the head of every top -- mr. tancredo who was great on sudan, we didn't have champagne when it passed, but we were very happy. and it simply died by virtue of the lobbyists saying, you can't do that. so hopefully we will be able to push this through. i just have comments from the international crisis group that would like to add their statement for the record. mr. chairman. >> without objection. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> i'll just conclude by thanking you. i would like to ask, mr. pendergrast, how well or poorly do you think it's being implemented, what is it from your perspective, anyone else who would want to touch on it as well? >> thanks for bringing that up. i should have at least in my testimony. i think it's such a crucial element of overall security and

stability in central africa. we've battled internally within our organizations and the groups that care about the nrla. we've put out this report card, and i was trying to give the administration ds and fs. everybody was, like, no, they'll just demoralize everyone. i feel like there is one major thing that has to be done. i mean, the elephant is swinging its tail around the living room is that you have to create a focused military strategy to apprehend or whatever the leadership of the lords resistance army. as long as joseph coney continues to run around, we've presented him with a very fair peace deal, peace proposal which he didn't even bother to show up to not sign. so there's a military option that needs to be exercised. what has happened now over the last three years is a broader counterinsurgency strategy where millions and millions of dollars and thousands of ugandan troops are running around central africa attacking units, and

often those are conscripted child soldiers. i don't think that kind of a broad counterinsurgency strategy has any chance of working. we need to target the leadership, use our technical assets that are superior to anyone's in the world, ensure that they're out there. we robustly support a commando unit to be able to close and act on a hot lead and take these guys out. hopefully we'll apprehend them and send them to hague and there will be a great trial and the icc will have a major success. if not, let's do what we have to do to bring an end to this tragedy because the attacks in the congo are getting worse, not better. we've seen almost an attack every week over the last few months in northeastern congo. and these are remote areas. no one knows. every once in a while a report trickles in and makes a little column in a local newspaper here in the united states. that's not even -- we're not even looking at this anymore. so we have to refocus and say what is the thing that's going to end it? that's the catalyst i think that will end it.

>> i think he makes a really good point. absolutely i've seen people, i've seen evidence of this stuff and people who are after it. there are really good people involved in trying to pursue some of the goals that john's talking about. and you do hear every month or two, well, 400 people got killed. oftentimes it will two, three days or a week to even come through. and then i think it's equally important to maintain a focus on the fdlr in eastern congo. they really are the people that -- well, in their leadership now committed the genocide, then fled to zaire, injected this toxic poison. it wasn't like people weren't raping one another in zaire. that's where everyone in rwanda was going to party and dance when rwanda was the uptight couldn't friday in the easterrl '90s. these people who committed these barbaric crimes, it got

contagious and further ruptured the social fabric, two wars and obliterated the infrastructure. these guys are still there and they're still killing civilians all the time. they're a big part in who's committing the rapes and they're the big ones that we need to support the effort to do that despite some pushback. i think it's important to remember there's the cndp. obviously they've committed a lot of crimes and they're part of the army -- congo has very openly said peace first, justice second. they're in a tough spot with that kind of thing. the fdlr there's no question about. that part of the country will not be safe until that militia is dealt with as well as the nlra. thank you. >> one final statement or question. there's no doubt that senator danforth, had he not initiated

the work with regards to the comprehensive peace agreement in the congo, there probably would not have been a comprehensive peace agreement. in sudan. and in like manner in northern ireland had it not been for senator mitchell, it is unlikely that a peace agreement would have been hammered out there between two disparate parties that were at each other's throats for decades. one last appeal, when ambassador yamamoto said he would take it under advisement with regards to the special rep or special envoy, i didn't get a very strong sense of affirmation there. if you could, all of you if you'd like, make one final appeal to the administration, because time is running. and the fear is that if we don't have someone who can really cobble together all the disparate elements here and really push hard, this may be opportunity lost. >> yes, i just would like to reemphasize that it's the key

thing if we're going to see success in the drc. and it's vital. and finally, i certainly would like to commend you, ms. mccain, for, you know, when you said you've been involved since 1994 to continue to be way ahead of the curve, i really commend you for that and for your continued interest. thank you. >> yeah, thank you very much. on the special adviser. i haven't heard any good arguments against it. we've been talking about it and going everywhere and asking about it. no one can tell me why it's a bad idea. it's the one appointment i could say potentially who knows? 100,000 lives? 500,000 lives? a lot. it will make a big difference if it helps prevent another outbreak of violence and destruction. i don't know washington. i'm not an expert. i hear it's a tough place because you've got turf battles and bureaucracy. fortunately that's your business and not mine. i'm really pleased to be

encouraged by you and to be empowered by you to continue to advocate for this because i, too, think it's really important. and i know that ambassador y yamamoto will give us his support. it would really help us to go to the secretary, if necessary to president obama. thank you again. >> mr. smith? >> you might ask -- you've been asking probably why we should have it. maybe we should just turn the question around and ask why not, see if they can come up with an answer. >> yes. >> chairman, you started off speaking about the elections. and i think that my final appeal would regard increasing women's political participation. as i said before, we're at a critical juncture, and we're not seeing women represented. in fact, not only are they being sidelined, but they're being cast out of the process.

and to give you an example, after enduring sustained pressure by their male counterparts, three female mayors in south kebu, grouping of cities, quite a high position, in fact, administrative position, were forced out of office. the bishop of vucavu had gone to them and tried to encourage them to carry out their political mandate and represent women and girls' needs. and finally, in november, they were fired. it's unacceptable. and if women do not represent themselves and their needs, their health, their education needs, then who will? we're not seeing others in the drc represent their needs. so that would be my final appeal. thank you. >> i think we need to understand that the system is like we've got this.

we've got this under control. system doesn't like aberrations. they don't like these things like special envoys and other kind of exceptions to the rule. that's just the way institutions work and the state department is no different than any other institution. my understanding is, and this is what i fear, and this is what i think -- and i'm glad we got our last chance to say this because i want to impart this to you, is my fear is that they're going to give this position. they're going to create the title of it and then give it to a deputy assistant secretary of state. they're going to dual hat a deputy assistant secretary of state and say yes, that's going to be our point person, our lead person. again, no human being has enough time to be a deputy assistant secretary of state of any regional bureau in the u.s. state department and be a special envoy to one of the most complicated countries in the world, definitely the most complicated i've ever been in in 25 years orcing in africa. that would be a tragic mistake. secondly, i think that position needs juice, sorry to use a

hollywood term, you need influen influence, gravitas, someone who can make the system respond to different ideas, new ideas to doing things in a way that are actually going to get results and bring an end to something rather than manage symptoms. and that person -- that person needs to report to the secretary of state as opposed to being just only in a regional bureau. i think these are the keys to success. and if we don't have them, it's just going to be another spoke in a wheel failure. >> thank you. ms. mccain. >> lastly, i would just like to thank all of you again for paying attention to this issue, for listening to us, for allowing us to tell you our thoughts and where we think the most important parts lie. and most importantly in chanting this issue from here because we'll be following you. we're going to watch. and we really encourage you to continue in such a wholehearted way. as a mother and the only thing i