[inaudible] -- their children and their children's children went to yale and mit and harvard. >> well, the ones that came here -- i repeat the question. the question is the went to stayed here had a hard time with their children but to yale and harvard. ..

>> i don't speak chinese my last name is chang but you have it spelled two ways. i always knew him as a great grandpa but you have this bill one way in the photo credit. >> this is amazing. >> this bell to freely in the index. >> there is a notes on translation somewhere in here we had a tremendously difficult time first of all, i'd like to talk to you

after the reading to talk about the man that is prominently featured in the book. we had a childhood translation because at every name was spelled two or three different ways. mostly we follow the advice of the translator and took the name and it is most well known in documents so we also put it as that. >> stick around i would love to hear more my father read the book and he is a new jersey and will there be a film adaptation? [laughter] tell your father i am extremely hopeful and you are making me blush. it is fantastic. thank you.

>> i was wondering in china when they are still talking about it, some of the boys who went to america were very on. six or seven years old. how was adaptation to america? >> i will answer the first question briefly. first of all, because adding 120 could 40 or 45 tremendously impressive men. the prime minister comment engineer, the diplomat convinced britain they are of many accomplishments.

how did they survive this strenuous journey to america? talking about doing lead in the 19th century, here is how it fits. sitting around the dinner table if you want to beat you better know what you want to eat in english. if you do not know that you will not get it. they learn english very fast. [laughter] >> they were like 20 years buy the time they got to china, they were very young and have all the menial tasks. it took a good 10 years to come into their own as men. but they really did make a difference because they really were presented and what ever realm of life of

the country they were being mining, engineering, telecom mining, engineering, telecommun, navy, brought a fresh spirit and self confident attitude that made a great change that by the way is what i see everywhere today in modern china. with a lot of respect for the tradition and doing things their own way but understanding here in negative progress. >> in focus to the european migration, all of eastern europe decided they would come to this country that the children have to be educated.

>> absolutely. >> i am not surprised. this is always been the lifeblood of america. that immigrants who came and to whom it was very important to get someplace. >> and now you know, the lifeblood of china ii. i am affiliated with new york university who now is completing a joint educational project in shanghai. we had a lovely delegation of people here with a tremendous cultural exchange for about this i truly believe the end i believe this is the future. thank you very much for coming. it has been a pleasure.

[applause] >> i of the hurricane might pass from darkness to freedom with a foreword by nelson mandela. >> that is correct. >> host: you say my main purpose in writing the book is to share with you what i have discovered the truth to be the truth. the love of truth is the spirit of man given where i was or how long i was there, i have no business being here now. >> guest: absolutely correct. >> host: you say you were in jail 40 something years? what do you mean by that? >> the fact that we are born

as a perfect being with the possibility is intact. with the level of insanity were quality reigns supreme. i was in the prison for the first 40 years of my life until i could wake up and did get out of the prison and realize to i really m. >> let's come to you really are in a second of for the viewer sake, you were incarcerated in prison for about 20 years. 1964. >> 1966 and through 1985. that's correct. >> host: the charge was murdering three people and wounding one in a bar? >> just on having murdered

somebody but to birders is mad enough but then to have then to be a racist murder is double the bad and that is what i was accused a triple racist murderer. >> why racist? >> all-white people were killed. >> host: the charge that you targeted them because of their race? >> a blackboard tender was killed by a white man in another part of town that night. they thought this was racial revenge motive to seven. >> guest: you also have to realize at that time, time, 1966, when the country was still segregated and black folks were not allowed to eat in restaurants or write down certain parts of buses or equal voting

rights. what was going on in this country at that time was a terrible thing. i was accused of being triple racist murderer. >> host: in the book you read about growing up in a household that was violent and difficult and facing your father across the living room with shotguns? >> yes. my family life was not a violent. the fireman's was outside. but realize this may i will be 74 years old. my mother and father come from a generation where if a child with his hands on his parents or even threatened his parents, they brought you into this world and they would take you out as well. that was the society i grew up. >> host: described the people who are watching who

might want to read the book why are you facing your father with a shotgun and he facing new? >> because i was a very angry young man at the time. i confronted my brother who was a highly successful man. going to harvard, the youngest to graduate from harvard university with a ph.d. in later became superintendent of schools of boston. and i was in and out of reformatory school's o my youth. my father had to choose between which one he would support and i confronted my brother because when i came home from the military 1956 i heard my brother was hanging out with homosexuals.

he had his own room when we were growing up. he would always dress up like a lawmen at halloween and look better than those on the streets. now he was home and doing the same thing and i confronted my brother. we started to fight and i beat him up. that is when my father got involved. my father jumped me because of that. i push my father away and do not put his hands on me and would not allow anybody to put his hands on me anymore he got his shotgun and i got mine. this is the same thing that happened to marvin gaye and his father and killed him. and if not for my mother my

father would have killed me. >> host: your mother said get out of here and go away. >> what is interesting, you just describe yourself technically having been in jail 20 years. but the violence and the whole world of nature that you describe it really has been in jail over 40 years until you discover yourself. this is an interesting moment because you say you will be 74 years old. ben in jail, but i was a prizefighter, a soldier, a convict, a jailhouse lawyer lawyer, executive director of a group called assn of the wrongly convicted today ceo of the innocents international group. but if i had to choose the

epitaph to be carved on my tombstone, remember this is rubin hurricane carter speaking, it would simply read it was just enough. this game because somebody in a high school audience asked what you would want for your epitaph and bob dylan wrote a song about you. nelson mandela wrote wrote a foreword to the book i know he loves boxing or talk to me about how he loves boxing then he talks about somebody like him who was in jail and has come out of it. here is nelson mandela, bob dylan and even tony bennett, muhammed ali they have all known you and now comes time for you to speak to yourself and you say it was just enough to have a courage to stand up on his convictions his actions may have caused him it was just enough to perform a miracle

to wake up to escape universal prison to regain his humanity and living hell and just enough. just enough. just enough. when people here just enough, i am sure they think just enough to get off or is gave four survive? why not to make something bolder? >> universally, we are all just enough. we're universally just enough and born with everything that we need to wake up to become conscious. that is just enough >> historical tourism is the focus pinpointing the past in washington d.c.. douglas and paul are the authors.

what could people learn in the book? >> this is a way of looking at the city in terms of a real city not in a federal enclave talk about bartenders and prostitutes and body snatchers and a real city and music and swamps knew what we have been working on this idea for over 20 years and we realize is the city is a vibrant place with tremendous life in the civil war and vitality that is somehow lost in the limestone buildings and tourist say what a pretty clean place. it wasn't always a pretty clean place. >> host: what role do politicians play? >> over the years they have made decisions that affect this city including rehabilitating the mall of washington. we used to have railroad tracks and industrial

buildings now it is cleaned up and say beautiful open area, a place of america's front yard, america's living room. politicians made that happen and i think the important thing here, this is america city. everybody has a stake, everybody comes here and belongs to them and the book tells them how it came about. >> there is anomalies, the site where the lincoln conspirators were wrong, the famous photograph is now a tennis court. the place in which garfield was shot back to the williams college reunion was in front of the building on the wall. where it says this is where the president was shot. part of it is discovering

the layered history of the city and going back to amazing things of the civil war, and a part of washington were abraham lincoln, there is a battle, the confederate troops approach and abraham lincoln stands up and they shoot at him and they say you fool. one of the problems with the battle of fort stevens that they had to keep the citizens back from getting killed. what we try to bring to the city was the vibrancy, the wild mess that was here all along now doing your and limestone down. >> on the spot. pinpointing the path of washington d.c. in its fourth edition.

>> politics and prose timing is indeed exclusive for a number of reasons. number one, almost exactly two years ago from the day in which i finished the first draft of the strategic review for president obama seeing through the united states government almost two years ago i flee with the president on air fares -- o.r. force one to go over with them on his spare time on a five hour flight. i am compelled to give my standard disclaimer. my views today are solely my view is. not the views of the obama

administration or the president. please do not confuse whatever i have to say what the views of the obama administration. second, as noted in the introduction, we're in the midst of a major crisis between the united states and pakistan, the deadly embrace literally is quite deadly in the last month. raymond davis and apparently america been diplomat, i do not know who he was i cannot confirm who he works for, shot to death to pakistani citizens come in a third pakistani citizen was killed by another american driving a vehicle coming to his rescue and in the weekend after those deaths, the widow of one of the two committed suicide because she believed her government would not stand up to the united states of america.

the family has subsequently said that if pakistan gives raymond davis back to the united states they will all commit suicide one at a time. that may be a bluff. but there is not a lot of governments in the world that will call their own citizens bluff on a threat like that. we have high drama, us by vs. by, and it comes after an increasingly difficult relationship over the last several months. in december, the cia officer in the country was named in the pakistani press or was ousted and had to be pulled out of the country literally overnight. if that wasn't bad enough, "the new york times" and "the washington post" sightseeing cia sources say

he was founded by the pakistani intelligence and services or the intelligence director. i have been a gauge and though it liaison government for many years. this is not normal behavior. we do not talk about it in the newspapers. since the arrest of mr. davis, the president said very clearly he must be given diplomatic immunity we have already cans -- counseled of pakistan meeting to work on cooperation on the war against al qaeda. pakistani president visit to united states is in jeopardy and obama's promise is clearly in jeopardy. if this was not bad enough

if you listen carefully the spokesman on both sides, us sense of doom and foreboding behind this relationship. pakistan chief of army staff was here last fall and when he went home to pakistan, he said he was the most bullied man in the world. that is not normal with relations. if you read carefully, there is clear concern that our government could be 9/11 type attack with pakistan at any time. last may we almost had one in times square. there is concern there could be another move by style attack in india. there is concern that i write about in my

book, pakistan would actually become of jihadist state becoming the unthinkable. it is not the most likely outcome buy far it is not imminent are inevitable but for the first time in history it could become a big possibility. the stakes here pakistan is the sixth most populous country in the world and assume could be the fifth largest country in the world's second marred -- largest muslim and will pass in a nation within a decade. the fastest growing arsenal in the world. today it is on the cusp of becoming the fifth largest nuclear weapon power in the world. for those of you who do not walk with a cheat sheet of the top five nuclear power is us, russia and china france and the united kingdom come up pakistan is close to surpassing united kingdom and on a trajectory

to make it the fourth largest. it is the host to more terrorist groups than any other nation in the world. per square kilometer you cannot find more terrorists man in the gaza strip. that is the extraordinarily complex relationship it is the patron of many terrorist groups the wholly owned subsidiary of the isi they add at war with others and it is extremely violent last year over 2000 terrorist attacks in pakistan. near 10,000 pakistani side. how did we get here? that is the subject i tried to address in the deadly embrace by looking at three

narrative's to how they interconnect with each other part of a first is pakistan's own internal development, the second is the u.s. pakistani bilateral relationship in the third is the rise of the global jihad. but a much more like mine did leadership but not the same goals as al qaeda. pakistan internal history is a fascinating story, extraordinarily complex. at one level there is a struggle those who created pakistan who had a vision of a pakistan that would be modern, democratic, largely secular state that would look a lot like the england. against him from the start was the islamic extremist that originally opposed

pakistan because they've wanted to control all of that but wanted to come around to wage war against india. then there is the struggle between the civilian government and the military. pakistan has a military that seized power four times in 60 years. one of those rightly deserve to the grandfather in the 1980's. he was our partner with the war of the soviet union. i will come back to that. these various struggles interact constantly with the unpredictable mix. and with murders and assassinations with the first prime minister murdering in 1948 to benazir bhutto murdered only three years ago. to the governor just a few

weeks ago. in most cases we don't know who did it. it is like reading agatha christie novel and we keep waiting for everybody to assemble to tell us who did it. they are all mysteries. the u.s. bilateral relationship is a roller-coaster. we have gone up and down we have been best friends come the most allied country in the world and at each other's throats. if this was a soap opera on television, we would have the number one ratings because the drama is so high. it is all built around secret projects. those that flew over the soviet union, and nixon's trip to china more recently the war against al qaeda. all of the secrets of course, do not remain secret very long at all.

they all come out. one standard is the united states consistently is always supported and endorsed the military dictators. we love pakistan generals when they takeover. initially we are reluctant but soon we come around and it is bipartisan. republicans and democrats alike have fallen in love with pakistani journalism. there is also great individuals. charlie wilson, but also larry pressler, a little-known senator who still cut off military assistance to pakistan. we told them we would not deliver 30 some odd of 16 aircraft's bought and paid for and would not give them their money back or charge them rent for taking care of them. he is not a well-known

figure in america every pakistani now is to he is. [laughter] fifth come to the conclusion america is a fair weather french. they have numerous jokes about this i will use the cleanest. pakistani is think they see their country as a tissue. use it and threw it away. i would use your imagination the other things they come up with. the global jihad was born against the soviets. do not get me wrong. what we did in the 1980's was the right thing and changed history. we brought down an evil empire and freed millions of people. but one of the unintended consequences was to create a frankenstein which pakistan has nurtured over the years.

all americans know who osama bin laden is today. when i try to do is tell you about somebody else. a palestinian who was the intellectual for father of the global jihad and roped the formative pieces about al qaeda is a philosophy. the founder and co-founder those that became the group that attacked among buy and and the figure from hamas. he is the trifecta up. if the culmination of these three things together has produced this uniquely combustible and dangerous pakistan today. what to do? i have learned from botox i

am supposed to leave you with a. >> host: not tell you why would you buy the book? my answer is what you do about it is in the last chapter. [laughter] but i will start with a simple one. humility. six years of america and interaction with pakistan demonstrates we can do a great deal of harm. very little evidence we can do a lot of good. take the hipaa credit both, do not support the generals at the expense of the civilian politicians even though they are as corrupt as they can be. there is no heroes, no thomas jefferson, in node john adams. a lot of aaron burr but that is what we have to work with. there is no magic bullets or simple solution.

to do $12 billion of an accountant funds nobody in united states government knows how much we gave them. we cannot invade them. this is a country twice the size of california with the fastest growing nuclear arsenal in the world. innovation is crazy but under certain circumstances i envision an american president with very few options other than military force. there is extraordinarily difficult trade-offs in this relationship. in the most difficult revolve around the nature of our relationship with the i f i that is our most important partner in the war against al qaeda. the isi has delivered more al qaeda prisoners and more targets than any other liaison partner but yet the

most vocal partner at the same time. leon panetta hearings a few weeks ago this is the most complicated thing he has ever seen in the government and he has been around for a long time. just one personal days last comment the research for the book is difficult to do. talking about secret intelligence organizations for the cia does not like to have this truth revealed even from their own former employees. the isi does not like anyone and despite my men the request al qaeda and osama bin laden have turned down my request for interviews. i always ask by the interactive camera. but what i have been able to do over the course of many

years in the government is speak with an interview of many key figures including four presidents including secretary of state and every american ambassador and every director general from the isi. i spent a great deal of time with benazir bhutto president musharraf. did they all tell me the truth? of course, not. duplicity is at the essence of this relationship hillsides the least i have done the conscious job of reaching out to get everybody's story. with fact, i look forward to your questions for could be one to ask me what to do about it, of course, i will tell you. [laughter] [applause]

>> if you can summarize what you were to do about it, it is a very tempting teases. >> united states needs to do several things. first of all, make sure when we work with pakistan we do not align the civilian government authority. that does not mean not dealing with the military battle is ranking in our priorities to engage with the civilians first. not because we are in love with the president or his likely replacement but because we should be supportive of the process. one of the things i would emphasize about pakistan today is that when you look back over its history, it has fought consistently for democracy not very effectively they got rid of

that. they sat under a dictator for 30 years. they do not sit still. they want democracy. their constituencies that are speaking democracy and we need to help enable them, not undermine them. second, i will mention we need to address the issues and assess the pakistani army. when the president set up the afghan pakistan convoy of this, it cannot deal with afghanistan without dealing with pakistan. the other half is equally important you cannot deal with pakistan without addressing india. we cannot be the mediator between india and pakistan. we can be a facilitator. and other wise grand picture tonight let me give you one

piece of good news. last week after pakistan and india agreed to continue the bilateral process, not because either side thinks there is a great chance of success but because both sides realize there is no viable alternative. that we should encourage the process. there are things we can help do to push the impact toward a resolution of their differences. one small difference. if you want to fly from islamabad, you cannot get there from here. you have to go to dubai, katmandu, a tehran, there is almost no direct flights less than 1% of the gdp engaged in trade. this is not normal or natural.

encouraging change in south asia is big. >> could you please comment on the pakistan dilemma in trying to prevent the forces crossing their borders into afghanistan that continues as such a concern knowing the enemy seems to be escaping into pakistan so frequently? >> the forces we're fighting in afghanistan are primarily the afghan taliban. the pakistani government in the '90s did not create it but was the midwife. the pakistani army believes to this day that the afghan

taliban is an asset to. sooner or later the americans will leave and there will be a struggle for influence and the biggest asset is the afghan taliban. up until one year ago they believed victory was in sight for they were going to win and we would pull out. said over the course over the last decade, the pakistani taliban i'm sorry the afghan taliban has given birth to the pakistani taliban. which targets the government of pakistan so the pakistani military has an extraordinarily difficult job to parse the difference. they are still convinced the best way to deal with this

our fight those who are your enemy and use those who are your asset for the future. and then of course, they say do more. pakistani is look at us to say first of all, you will not be here. when push comes to shove we are on our own. second, we need these people. we want to continue to have relationships. this conflict it is at the heart of this by verses spy a battle going on. the different points of view >> i emigrated from india to the united states 30 years ago. with the piece between

kashmir and pakistan and india there are reports even musharraf had a cease-fire on the agreement of the control between pakistan over kashmir. and the army could control the radicals will there ever be a solution or a time there pakistan could be like india? because thomas friedman wrote a secular democracy gave rise to what it is today with leadership and as long as asian -- islam so if those have the same culture or language? your comments and questions.

>> is an in very important question i will put some perspective here musharraf after he first tried nuclear intimidation several high-profile terrorist attacks and threats aimed around diplomacy. he is a slow learner but talk to the right outcome. the outcome that he negotiated a have talked to him about it and the indians and everybody agrees on what it was. ideal comment a cease-fire line recognizing the international border so that india's and territory -- territorial integrity is respected but it is impermeable so they could go back and forth like maryland and virginia lot more like you're up where there is not a lot of border

watches. unfortunately this sell by day of the pakistani people expired at the critical moment. he says his partner at in the negotiations was the general who is now the chief of the army and if that is true then there is some glimmer of hope. this is a good deal for india. indians to think about it may feel a level of satisfaction but if they think about it at all, they know their vision of a bright shining india, one of the great leaders of the 21st century it is impossible if you are connected to a failed state or worse, the jihadist state next door that has hundreds of nuclear bombs targeted on you. i am convinced he

understands this. it is a good deal for those in kashmir than anyone else. they have lived in a nightmare for many, many years. the hard part is selling it to pakistan. the good news is the president wants to do it. that is why he embarked on a new peace process when he came into office that is have the dark forces in pakistan wanted to prevent it from going through to carry out the operation. we cannot make this happen but we can help indians and pakistani is. we can be cheerleaders, go to the u.n. security council, we can give them ideas, but we have to do it inouye that is uncharacteristic, we cannot talk about it, we cannot have a special on filet for

kashmir and give constant press reports. we have to be sophisticated, a subtle and under the radar. as many of my colleagues who work in u.s. government say i am dreaming. we cannot do it. of pakistan is a country to be pessimistic it is easy. but we have to raise the game and raise our sights to help them do it. >> one question and two points. you said there are only 500 al qaeda? why would they spent $10,000,000,000,000.2 chase them? i urge you not to talk pakistan or afghanistan it is a collection of nations

this the pashtuns especially are troubling us. in in these countries, then it's a terrible thing to happen. as far as a combination of mormons seven i have never heard them characterized like that. [laughter] i will steel that line. >> but you know, how the massacres occurred.

but this community is paranoid the country is collapsing, the taliban is murdering people. and everybody was well-connected. my view of pakistan is conceit, collapsing, and new states have been created in very few people would have chaos. >> you and i pay are close its agreement of the pakistan problems today. you brought up more of the divisions within pakistan

between the majority which dominates the office, which sees the country as basically the estate in which everybody else is a second or third class citizen. that is true. you raise rightly the growing strength of extremism, highlighted by the murder of the governor of plume jab. his own bodyguard debts of favorable attention. the battle for the soul of pakistan on the way how it will turn out nobody knows. there are a lot of very dangerous possibilities. i will just make one comment about al qaeda with all due respect to threat to the central intelligence, have been engaged accounting insurgent and terrorist 35

years. we don't have a clue anybody who says they know how many there are is either bluffing or something worse, al qaeda is a more complex problem than 50 individuals i wish the united states government would get out of the business of body counts and learn from vietnam. getting into the business of thinking of our enemy in a more flexible way. >> picking a pioneered the with regard to global jihadist movement and broadening the scope of the discussion, how do see the global jihadist forces from interacting or dealing with for coping with the change that is yet to undefined butted way? this was an interesting struggle and could have

serious implications for a lot of things. people are talking about it but don't know lot. your opinion would be interesting. second, -- what do you think of the future of colonel khadafy? [laughter] >> i think muammar qaddafi shelf life could be measured in days. at least we could hope so. he has demonstrated what he has been in the last 40 years dramatically to the world. all of the myths have fallen murdered and killed several hundred americans and has been engaged one active terror of days after the other privacy the negotiation between the opposition and colonel gaddafi just like hosni mubarak.

the egyptian revolution is much more significant. al qaeda is caught on the back plant and taken off guard. the al qaeda philosophy, the only way to bring about change in the arab world was jihad and violence and terrorism that should be directed against the crusaders and zionist. but you in this room, what has happened in egypt is a regime change through a largely peaceful, and at 100% masts based movement. this does not fit the model. the al qaeda leadership in particular, number two thought hosni mubarak mocked his entire life to participate in the assassination of anwar sadat 30 years ago, was then able to put out a statement for

almost a month. he finally put a statement out last weekend. guess who is to blame? napoleon bonaparte. [laughter] and invading egypt 207 years ago on the decline is all his fault. he promised additional statements to bring us up quicker to the current day. and while this is very consistent with the al qaeda narrative, it shows how awkward they have been. but there are several scenarios in which things come out. if the promise of democracy now turns into something much less common than their is radicalism. namibia we don't know who those kids are or who they're fighting for or

listening to. idiom and we know part of the opposition is al qaeda. for now, they suffered a setback and certain humiliation this is just beginning. the easy part of the revolution is toppling a dictator and this provides jobs with 85 million egyptians. that is hard to do. >> a quick question on this geopolitical scene out of pakistan. china has a border. [inaudible] they have their own agenda and the chinese have a lot

more influence than the u.s. does. they take our money from china. and china does look at india and wonder if they are creating some instability for a nuclear reactor? now and the rolled of nonpolar for eight -- proliferation. so what is your take and i you discussing in the book are focused on? >> briefly. you characterize china's quite right from the pakistan perspective we are the fair weather friends we're taller than the

himalayas and deeper than the in the notion. when the design for islam it in every situation the chinese have not done anything more than we have. china is short answer is we're not the quasi reverie but also a relationship with us and india which is a cornucopia and china is trying to figure out how to balance all of this together. but for me, the high road is to give the chinese to roll with us. they don't want to see the indian economy suffer a devastating blow. tricky, hard to do but to something we can do. iran is more difficult. the short version and it is

afghanistan 2001 and have largely been a supporter of what they want to do because they hate to the taliban. the trick is to somehow segue off the relatively positive pursuits in afghanistan from so many other things where we have very serious disagreements. that is a very tricky diplomatic problem. >> but with do no harm with said john attacks are counterproductive? >> i am glad you brought this up. i teach at johns hopkins. if i were to teach a course in decision making, i would use the drones as the classic example.

those that he inherited from president bush to created the infrastructure obama's skillfully has exploited started under bush. the only real way to put pressure on al qaeda and pakistan, and it works, it has put a lot of pressure. also year used to put out a new message every other week, last year he put out for. not because he got laryngitis because he fears the drones. on the other hand, the drug is incredibly counterproductive even though the isi provides targeting information and is a beneficiary, this is a classic example of what is really hard to make decisions and government. they do not need naturally

easy solutions. i will be 100% candid and up front. i recommend increasing drug operations two years ago but also we need to be careful not to become drone addictive. they are a platform in a weapon system. not a strategy by means to put pressure on al qaeda and they cannot destroy al qaeda from 30,000 feet in the year -- in the air. cooperation is essential to doing that in the end. this is a real-world problem. if we don't keep up the drums the danger of mass casualty attack will increase. if we keep doing them we driveway a significant pat part there is no simple answer to this problem. long-term the best answer is to get the pakistani to take