seeing a collapse in fertility in a lot of those countries as we already have. >> thank you, kay. thank you all for coming. [applause] the book is "manning up." [applause] >> you're watching 48 hours of nonfiction authors and books on c-span2's booktv. >> coming up, emily lambert, senior writer for "forbes" magazine, examines the history and purpose of the board of trade, mercantile exchange and other futures markets. she speaks at after-words bookstore in chicago. it's about 45 minutes. [applause] >> so i, um, i am much more comfortable interviewing people

than i am speaking, so i, i'm sure that will come across very quickly, but thank you very much for coming. thank you so much to beverly for having this event and for hosting it. it, this just happens to be my favorite bookstore. i have bought many a book here, i love coming here and, of course, it turns out that beverly has a connection to this industry because many chicago who doesn't? -- in chicago who doesn't? and i started talking to her, and she said, oh, yes, my uncle grew up with leo mohamed, and i went out to breakfast the other morning with a member of the board of trade who said he used to work for beverly's father. and i thought, of course, because, again, it's chicago, and everybody seems to have a connection to the business. i just thought i would say a few things about writing this book, and then i'm going to interview a trader because that seems much more fun than listening to me talk.

so i'm -- first of all, why i wrote this book. i moved to chicago in 2004 for "forbes," and it just seemed that i seemed to meet a lot of traders everywhere i went. we rented an apartment to start in lincoln park and took up tennis which we played very badly, and ray conman, a big trader, played tennis on the next court regularly. then another time we went to the lake front, and i was reading a book about the dummy's guide to futures and options because it just seemed that it was a big local business, and i should learn more. and some guy came up to me and tapped me on the shoulder and was like, it's going to get eas. and i said, oh, that's good because i was reading about some -- i think it was a butterfly trade and options, and it just seemed like craziness. and meeting all these strangers

seemed really interesting, and, you know, i just got curious. and, of course, the chicago board of trade building is absolutely gorgeous, and can i was curious as to what went on inside. and there seemed to be a lot of news going on in the industry which to anybody in the industry, of course, might find kind of, you know, obvious that in 2004 there was a lot going on. so i started covering the industry. and then i wrote a couple of stories. i wrote a story about the merger of the two exchanges. i got a call from a book publisher who said do you think that there's more to say about these traders? and i thought, well, of course, because it's -- the traders are such interesting people, will must be something -- there must be something. and this was 2008 when the financial crisis was happening, when oil prices were going crazy, when food prices were going crazy. i wasn't really sure what i was going to write, but i thought, sounds like fun, write a book.

and in retrospect, that was the most naive thing i could have possibly, you know, done. [laughter] because the more that i learned about the industry and learned about traders and learned about the history of this place, the more i felt like i was taking on just a very big project and, also, a very kind of personal project for people in the industry. i mean, there are people here who, whose families have been here for generations, and i suddenly thought who am i to be, you know, coming in, sleeping in and -- sweeping in and writing this story? but i'm glad i did because the, really the futures industry is all about risk, and i guess in my case it was just one of those naive risks which i hope paid off because i, i've really

enjoyed it, and i've really enjoyed meeting the people who i've met. so -- uh-huh? >> i just wanted to say how i actually had the good fortune to meet up with emily, it turned out one day i was out having lunch with a good friend of mine, a guy that's been at the exchange a lot longer than i have, in fact, he represented the generation ahead of mine, maurice schneider. >> whose son is here. >> whose son is here. and i was telling maury, you know, i'm a third generation trader myself, you know, the older guys are fast disappearing, and, you know, i really wish that somebody out there was really collecting stories. to really write the history of this very exciting industry. something that was such an important component of the chicago economic history. and maury said to me, what are you talking about? there's this gal, she's doing it right now. and so i, of course, the first thing i did was get emily's

phone number and call her, i think, an hour later to introduce myself because i really wanted to do what little i could to help her to make this a very successful book that she's writing. >> which i appreciate. and which, also, i should add that this does not, to me, this feels like a -- first of all, it's more than chicago economic history. it is chicago economic history, but futures have, you know, transformed the financial system in ways that i think people don't fully maybe appreciate and don't realize. and that goes for traders as well as for people now who are wrestling with these big concepts like derivatives and understanding where they came from and understanding what happened here, i think, is a story that really hasn't been told very much. and i, i'm not so silly as to think that it's completely told in this book either. i mean, i'm hoping that this is, this is, i've scratched the

surface of what i think is really interesting history, and it deserves a lot more attention. and i know i have more stories in my notes that didn't make it in, so i hope that i can add to this record after this and another time because there just really is so much here. so, yes, so i asked bill to talk because i was hoping that he might be able to explain to people who aren't in the industry who are here what i'm even talking about at all. >> right. >> because his family very much mirrors the story of the futures industry. here this chicago. here in chicago. so there are -- maybe you could just start, if you don't mind, by what is a futures contract? >> right. i know you know a lot of people that think it's a very mysterious, arcane type of business, but futures contracts are, essentially, insurance

products, and that was the reason that the industry first developed. it was, futures contracts are a way to, to offset risk on the part of both people who need to use commodities and people who produce commodities. and, you know, very simply, a futures contract with is a contract between a buyer and a seller for a specific commodity at a specific price for a specific future delivery date. and i guess, you know, the easiest way to explain it in the terms of how it's used by people to offset risk, i think one of the simplest examples is you take an airline company, someone who needs to use a lot of fuel on a regular basis. and, of course, if fuel prices go up, it can have a severe adverse impact on their profitability. so an airline company realizing that crude oil is at $80 a barrel and they're concerned that it may go to $100 a barrel,

they have the ability to purchase all they need at a given price of $80 knowing that that will be their final cost for the product. >> so they use futures because they have too much risk, right? they want to shove it off onto some other people. >> right. >> and i think what makes this such a fun business is that chicago has all these people who are willing to take that risk. >> well, that's the other side. you know, the real economic reason for having futures contracts is for those who want to avoid risk. but it certainly, also, provides a great opportunity for those who want to assume risk in search of profits. >> so there -- >> that's the speculator. >> the speculator. so there's the hedger and the speculator, there are two -- for people who are traders, this is boring stuff because you know it, but for people who aren't in the business, this might be really interesting. there are two exchanges, they are very different places. your family was at one of them, the chicago merc.

so can you -- who came first? >> the board of trade came first. >> let me re-ask that. who in your family came first? >> oh, my grandfather was the first member of the henner family to trade. and he went to the merc, i believe, in the early '40s, he started trading there back when they were still trading onions. but i think he primarily traded in the egg markets. >> so, and what was, to your knowledge, what was the merc like then? >> you know, it was much, much smaller building. i have, actually, i went to work for the first time at the old merc in 1969 when i was all of 16 years old. i had a summer job working there, and at that time i think there were a total of 500 members, most of them weren't even there on any given day, so it was, you know, probably three, maybe four -- 300 or so actual live traders on the

floor. it was much, much smaller. i remember, you know, there were only really three products that were trading. they were hogs, there were cattle, and there was the real, you know, most important contract which was frozen pork bellies. >> so, and tell me about the pork belly pit. how did people trade it? they traded it in pits and talk about that. >> right. >> and then your uncle was in the pork belly pit. >> my uncle -- >> as far as i know, the meanest person to walk through -- >> he got that reputation. you know, i don't know if it was completely deserved, but certainly, he -- i think, you know, he was, essentially, the game face, his pit persona. he was one of the old school guys who felt that, you know, that you had to really put on a tough front, and he wasn't afraid to use intimidation to further his business interests. of and it was very funny because my uncle, you know, after getting that reputation it was very common among the order

desks on the floor. whenever there was a new clerk who had just, was just starting off at the exchange, the kind of rite of passage was to give this poor kid a bad order and send him to my uncle, bill henner. you know, essentially, they would give him a live cattle order and send it to my uncle in the pork belly pit. and then they would watch the ensuing fireworks that would go off when my uncle would browbeat this poor kid and tell him he's a complete moron, and he didn't deserve to be at this place, so on. and, of course, the order desk would have a great bit of amusement around that. >> and, and these are the kinds of stories that it took me a while to understand what that meant because there were different pits where different thing were traded. >> correct. >> so if you had an order for live cattle, it had to go to the live cattle pit. if someone took the order to to the wrong pit --

>> right. generally speaking they would say, no, no, this is live cattle, you need to take it over there, young man. but my uncle reacted a little more interestingly than that. but, you know, in his defense, when he was not trading, he was a very generous man. he helped hot of people, you know -- he helped lots of people, you know, in the industry, and he wound up, he had four wonderful children that are all very good people as well. >> and i spoke to two, a woman who was a clerk for your uncle who said that she loved being a clerk for your uncle because everyone had to pay her respect because they didn't want to have her go get bill and, you know? >> nobody wanted to incur his wrath. yeah. >> so you were there, also, when futures kind of left the world of agriculture and moved into the world of finance. and this is a big, this is a big step to leave what was,

essentially, the world of commoditieses and get into the world of money. >> right. it was always assumed that futures markets had to be about agricultural products. and, you know, in fact, you know, there was, it was a very novel idea to introduce the idea of having financial futures. and interestingly enough, actually, that happened during the time when i was not involved in the industry. i worked there in 1969, i went away to college the year after that and actually didn't return to chicago to get back into the business until 1978. and the merc had changed dramatically in that ten-year period, actually nine-year period. it had moved from a very small facility at 110 north franklin to a much, much larger building at 444 west jackson. when i came back, there were, not only were there the agricultural markets, but there

was a gold futures contract that was doing enormous volume, there were, i think, fife currency contracts -- five currency contracts that were each doing very well, and within the first year that e had come back, they has introduced a treasury bills contract which was kind of the precursor for the euro dollar contract that came along in 1982. >> so who were some of the big traders and personalities on the floor when you came back? >> well, when i came back there were, i think, you know, there were some certainly big traders. i think, you know, the cattle market was, certainly, being dominated by refco and tom kiter kit -- dittmer. i remember the rumors would go across the floor, dittmer's buying cattle, and people would try to coat tail him. there were, remember in the hogs and bellies, joel greenberg was a real big player as well, and i

remember joel greenberg actually moved into the treasury bill pit and became a very, very large trader there for a while as el with. >> and so what did you trade? >> i started off -- i came back to chicago, i worked as a clerk for a few months, then leased a seat. and i started trade anything gold futures. gold futures were actually the second large itself -- largest volume product at the mercantile exchange. part of it was during those days people were utilizing what they called gold spreads, buy withing one contract, selling another as a vehicle to defer charges. >> and by deferring, you mean not pay. >> yes. [laughter] you're able to use gold contracts to essentially take a tax liable from one year and move it into the next year.

and some people did that year after year after year. the problem was, eventually, the government took their regulations, and people could no longer roll their taxes. so times people want to put multimillion dollar tax bills that were immediately due. >> okay. >> so, and quite honestly, i think, that was the end of the ability to roll backses through gold spreads was sort of the beginning of the end of the gold contract at the merc. the business wound up moving to new york. >> okay, so each going ahead -- keep going ahead in time to the '80s. the aye 90s were the heyday of trading in shaq. chicago. >> absolutely. i think the two most important new developments were the introduction of the euro contract and the introduction of the s&p 500 contract. >> can you describe what the

euro dollar looked like in its heydey? >> it was incredibly packed with people. it was a place where there was absolutely no extra real estate available. in fact, at one point one of the big brokers there decided he was going to leave the business, and he was able to sell his spot in the pit, just enough room for one person to stand, for a million dollars. but it was -- >> and what made, what made -- sorry to interrupt you -- what made that spot so fantasticsome. >> well, the fact they were doing so much volume in the euro dollars contract that a good broker in the euro dollars was making more than a month than a good broker in the cattle would make in a year. it was so busy that clerks who were there to just process order flow, to get the orders from the testings and tell the broker what he needed to do were being paid six figures at one time. >> and you told me once about a

runs of you went to -- lunch you went to. >> well, yeah, you know, back in the days when we were doing quite well, we used to take turns buying lunch for the other two people in the group. and the running joke was to see how high they could run the bill, you know? expensive champagne, things like that along with the fancy meal. >> and so how -- >> sometimes in excess of a thousand dollars for a lunch. you know, but times were good back then. [laughter] you know, the markets were very inefficient, anding and being oe trading floor was just an incredible advantage. i mean, if you were willing to be disciplined and be careful, you know, you could make a lot of money without taking very much risk. some people managed to do it without taking any risk, i think. >> so now thicks have change -- things have changed.

the floor is not what it was, certainly, the board of trade which we haven't talked about, maybe we can at least in questions and the merc are one big company now. it's a very different situation. the henner family, you've been there for three generations now. >> three generations. >> is there going to be a fourth in the trading. i think it's unlikely, honestly. i don't have any children that are particularly interested in trading. but, you know, i think definitely electronics has completely changed the industry, and it's changing the way that, ultimately, it has allowed the volume to go to numbers that we could not have imagined 20 years ago. and, ultimately, it's provided a much fairer, even paying field for most of the participants. the policials in the game no

longer have the ability to get better prices and to have any real advantage over the normal retail trader. >> and so what did the merc people think of the board of trade, and perhaps we could have someone address that. >> you know, i think -- i'm not sure why there was, essentially, such an ongoing culture clash, you know? but the board and the merc never could seem to really, you know, get together. i mean, there were, this was talk of merging the two exchanges back when i started in the business. and for one reason or another, they could never get together. i don't know if it was the egos of the people who were running the exchanges, you know, it was always kind of an interesting thing that the board of trade people, i think, always had an attitude that they were, they were first, and they had -- their exchange was the more legitimate entity than the america.

merc. i think there was always that attitude that the merc was the second-rate exchange down the street. >> we were just talking to somebody before this that said the merc was the juvenile exchange. that was the nickname for the merc. did you have a nickname for the board? >> not that i recall. >> you're very polite. >> i was fortunate that, you know -- actually, my father had memberships at both exchanges, and he actually had his office in the board of trade building. and i think even though he pro dominantly traded -- predominantly traded mercantile exchange products, he always liked the board of trade better. in fact, he had encouraged me to go to work at the board instead of the many merc. he said it was a more civilized place. >> can and why did you end up at the merc? >> i think part of it was just youthful rebellion. [laughter] and that's, honestly, why i think when i started in the business i didn't want to trade

agricultural products. i was really exciteed about the new financial futures markets, and i felt, ultimately, they would be where the big volume was going to occur. and that's why i started off in gold and moved into foreign currencies because i realized it was, potentially, the biggest trade of all. >> and what do you think people -- do you think that people today understand what futures are? >> outside the industry? >> outside the industry. >> no, i think there's still that same confusion in the minds of most people. you know, that's why, you know, they've even had so much fun with it in various movies. you know, president futures inds always been this kind of arcane subset of the financial industry, and very few people understand it even though it is really not that difficult a concept which you sit down and

take a look at it. >> thank you. does anyone have any questions? and if not, i might target people. [laughter] >> gee, i wanted to say one more thing, and that is when i was working as runner before the advent of financial futures, the biggest trade at the exchange was pork bellies. it did, actually, 90% of the volume in the '60s. and the pork belly contract this year, 2011, is the 50th anniversary of the introduction of that contract. just last month there was an article in the weed journal talking about how pork bellies, actually, the mercantile exchange was often referred to as the house that bellies built. >> uh-huh. >> and as of last november, six contracts traded in pork bellies at the chicago mercantile exchange. so one of those things that is not, certainly, appears to be on

its way out. and i noticed that, and i also realized that, you know, last year was, i think, the first year in 70 years that there wasn't somebody with the last name henner trading at the chicago mercantile exchange. >> hmm. >> and it's kind of sad to see things change, but, you know, certainly the exchange itself, the volume is healthier than it's ever been. >> and it's a story of market evolution, right? >> absolutely. >> i mean, your family was there during an amazing time of innovation, and so now it's almost a new era of innovation. >> yes, it is. >> but, questions? >> any questions? >> yes. >> emily, you mentioned you're not from around here, and as someone from a trading family, broker family, i want to ask you, you know, you do a good job in the book talking about how the exchanges are sort of clannish and, obviously, when

you have generations of people, you know there's family secrets and stories and things, but not always ones they want the general public to know. how did you get people to talk to you, to open up to get so many good stories and, obviously, so many that maybe you'll be able to tell us later? [laughter] >> i -- over drinks. >> [inaudible] >> no, no, i did not. [laughter] is my husband here? [laughter] the -- well, first of all, i covered the industry for a couple years before i wrote the book, and i think that was really helpful because then people knew who i was and then were able to vouch for me because, you're right, this industry is incredibly clannish, and you have to have people say, you know, essentially, make an introduction to other people. it was, for example -- and everybody knows someone, but it really is all about introductions. the way i found bill was through

the schneiders. the way i found the schneiders was by calling people at the new york mercantile exchange. it's all -- it really is a, just, it's a game of telephone where everybody knows someone. and then i think this was just a unique time where the, the -- because things are going electronic, because the clubs are no longer actual clubs and they are public, publicly-traded companies, because there's a period of transition, people are able or at a point where they're more willing to look back and talk, perhaps, than they were before. so i think that that helped. >> [inaudible] i also think to emily's credit she asked the right questions. you didn't know it was going to be a -- [inaudible] you know, a lot of times people come in, and they want the dirt on somebody. i think she asked some very good, well organized questions where you didn't mind answering. it took me five or six meetings

with her before i actually told her the truth, but -- [laughter] >> this is true. >> you just had to see which angle she was coming from because a lot of people try to come into our business, write a book, and they look all for the negative. "the wall street journal" reporter wants the negative because it's going to be on the front page instead of the 12th page, so i think she did her research and her homework. >> well, and i do want to say that it's easy to find the negatives in this business, and i'm not trying to hide them either. and i think it's part of the history of the place. but i feel like a lot of people focus a lot on the negatives, and we miss what actually works about the industry. and i think that especially now when we look at what's happened with the derivatives business and things, i think it's important to go back and learn from history, also, about what works in history. so, larry schneider, can i ask

you a question? >> of course. >> which is that you've started -- when you started, it was also the '60s, correct? >> i started working as a runner in 1967 also at 110 north franklin. >> and how little did people know about the industry at that time, how little did people know about the merc? >> nobody knew anything about the mercantile exchange. as bill said, there's only 500 members, and many of those were new yorkers who held it for corporate purposes. the board of trade, he had maybe 1300 members, and, you know, there'd only be a handful of clerks for each brokage firm. it wasn't as large as it is today. so the story you're leading up to, it's 1968, and i'm in the elevator at 110 north franklin, and two women come in. one says to the other, isn't there some kind of stock exchange in this building? and the other one says, yes, but it's a small one. and i wanted to stop the elevator and say, excuse me,

ladies, it is a futures exchange, and it's the world's second largest. but nobody knew this. go up a couple of years, and i'm a single in college. people say what are you going to be doing when you get out of school, larry? i'm going to be working at the chicago mercantile exchange. they say, that's great, can you get me in? i have to buy a sofa. and it's not the first time i said not the merchandise mart. and imagine trying to explain to your future father-in-law what you're going to do for a living and how you're going to support his daughter. fortunately, in 1972 there was some activity in cattle. there was a lot of protests, i forget whether prices were too high or too low, but suddenly all the channels in the chicago, the news teams had stock footage of the trading floor, and people would say, oh, are you one of those people who goes down and

shouts and says, yes, and they would shake your hand and walk away. so i think that sense really helped change things, and i think today if you called up channel 9, they'd have a massive collection of stock footage of the trading floors. and that really started to change things. but up until the '90s, the only -- '70s, the only schools that taught anything about futures trading were the university of illinois, iowa. there was one book on the futures business. if you walked into any bookstore up until, really, the early 1970s, maybe even the mid '70s, there was nothing at all on futures trading. you'd have to look very, very hard. and so that became part of my mission, was to help educate and become a cheerleader for the industry. >> well, and in the '80s you taught classes, right? and then there was a much bigger

interest in futures when people thought that they could come to chicago and make a mint, right? >> definitely. definitely. i was on the education committee for the chicago mercantile exchange in the mid '70s, and we noticed that there was a huge number of summer employees coming in. granted, many of them were children and nieces and nephews of members. but people wanted to know what they were doing. they didn't just want to go down and there go, okay, run this order, answer this phone. so i was part of a committee that created one class, introduction to futures, and it was so well received the exchange said maybe we should be doing this for -- on a regular basis. they eventually adopted a catalog on a quarterly basis, and i kind of took over introduction of futures and a few other courses, options for

beginners. we would have so many people taking this course in the winter that we would have to rent out an auditorium, and people were moving to chicago to learn about this business. there was no electronic trading, and if you really wanted to know futures, you had to be on the floor. there's no two ways about it. at the time -- and you we're moving into the early 1980s, mid 1980s -- i was running the retail futures department for dean witter reynolds. i would have mba graduates come to me saying, i'll move to chicago, i will work for minimum wage 30 hours a week, you know, part-time work as a runner just to learn the business. and, you know, their intention was to leave after a few the months, and can that was fine by me, but they kneaded to get down, make their connections, meet people, understand how it works, and you wound up with suddenly a situation where you

were no longer there because you were somebody's son, daughter, niece or feoff you, but because -- nephew, but because you had an advanced degree, and you saw the potential for all of this. >> thank you. and at the risk of being too merc-heavy, i want to target one other person. nancy? you were, arguably -- i know there's some debate -- the first woman to walk on the floor of the exchange, right? >> oh, yes. i was the first woman allowed on the floor of the mercantile exchange. that was in 1962. in fact, the chicago mercantile was the fist explain in the country to i allow women members. and my husband wanted to open his own business, and so he chose me as his partner and bought a membership for me. and, of course, at that time they were really anxious to sell memberships to, you know, whoever came along. so they were willing to sell one

to a woman. the first day that i went -- after i went before the board and was approved, my husband said to me, well, now you have to go out on the floor. and at that time they didn't even women me employees, so we took the elevator and went down. i tent saying to him, you know, women respect -- i kept saying to him, you know, women aren't allowed. the guard ran for everett harris, the president, and he said, oh, yes, nancy can -- of course, in the meantime, bud just led me out on the moor, so i was the first woman to go own on the exchange floor during trading hours. there were some long faces looking at me, but all of bud's, you know, friends congratulated me, and that was the end of

that. and then i think it was probably a few months, maybe six -- oh, and i did to down and answer the phones for a while for them and i had very four very young children at home, so it didn't work out. i think in a few more months, make, six months after that, they did allow -- a woman did start working down on the floor. and from that point on it was history. >> and then, actually, bill's cousin was a woman in the euro dollar pit and, perhaps, the most successful female trader. finish. >> arguably, the most successful woim floor trader in the history, i would say. she did very, very well. she had a great mind for mathematics, and second? be numbers so --

>> which is oneover those things i just said -- >> right. essentially, that just means euro dollar futures contracts are, basically, you're trading the very short-term interest rates. >> i'm going to stop you there because people who understand you understand you, and people who don't understand you are not going to get i. >> they're not going to get it anyway? >> yeah. [laughter] so any other questions? if not, i, i hope you get a chance to mingle and talk to people because there are some really fascinating people here. charlie andrews the whole start of the book, the whole end of the book is about charlie. he came in from kansas which i so appreciate. he's a really interesting guy. board of trade people who may have gotten the shaft in this conversation, i'm sure, have interesting things. and i just, i really appreciate you all coming. it's really sweet and, charlie -- >> two great stories.

[laughter] >> one about his dad and one about his uncle. when the cattle market really started to boom, all the cowboys wanted to come to town to see what was going on. there was a fella by the name of frank booth who ran the biggest truck line, cattle/bull hauler in the united states from greeley. frank had this much height on me and 100 pounds. and he came to buy seed, but they told him, why don't we get you a yellowjacket and let you get to feeling this before you buy a seat. and so here was this giant old man among all these runners running around on the floor, and everybody was whispering who is he, who is he, who is he? his uncle bill called him over to the pit, and he said, sonny,

i see you're a little older and bigger than most of these runners, so to get you on the same plane, i'm just going to buy you a boy scout knife. his dad had the greatest sixth sense of the market of anybody, and murphy will back me up. they were out on a new yacht, and the yacht sapg, and they were on -- sank, and they were on this life raft, and on the second day his dad, david, disclosed to his wife: the worst part of this is, i'm sure the soybeans are limit down today. [laughter] great, great humor that happened among all the things. but what we built is a gigantic market of the world. and it's going to get bigger and bigger and bigger. and i'm really pushing emily to come out with a next book

because we have to have counterparty risk, it cannot go off into derivatives into thin air, and we must have the contracts designed or redesigned to fit the marketplace today. but this place will grow like nobody can ever imagine. today they traded almost 100,000 cattle. big day we ever had was 35. the corn will trade 400-500,000 contracts a day. we couldn't get over 50,000 in the bit because, physically, we couldn't handle it. electronics are putting us into the future. but the big thing to remember, there's 408 million people in north america and maybe maximum 200 million people in south

america. outside of our boundaries there's six billion people. you've got two sides of the hemisphere. we're the food producers of the world, and they're the producers of industrial products, and we developed this swap market which i learned how to do swaps there which is the most valuable thing i could have ever learned if my life, and we will propel, we will build jobs around the food industry just like china with their 17 vital trace elements will build steel and all of these things. but it's got to be a world of futures or -- >> and i have to say when i first started writing this, i

had no idea what you just said. hopefully, if you read the book, you'll say, ah, i know what charlie's talking about. it sounds scary, but charlie knows all this because he knew it when he traded cattle, and there really is a progression so that what he says starts to make some sense. okay. thanks again, everyone, for coming. we're open for several more hours, so i hope you'll stay and have some wine, some food. emily, here, has graciously agreed to sign some books, so we're going to start that right mow, and thank you both, that was really fascinating. >> thank you, bill. thank you, beverly. [applause] [inaudible conversations] >> emily lambert is a senior writer at "forbes" magazine. for more information and to read her blog, visit

blogs.forbes.com/emily lambert. >> we're here talking with lindsay boyd of the independent institute about the upcoming books they have coming out. >> yes. we've got a number of exciting new books coming out. we've got two new, two new books that are being rereleased, we've got "beyond politics," and we're going to be releasing it coming early april. we'll be doing some heavy promotion for that. it's a classic book, it's something that all students should read, students who are interested in learning a little bit more about free market principles and the foundations of our democracy and how those principles apply to the current political atmosphere. "beyond politics" is absolutely essential. we just released "the new holy wars" with bob nelson, and he did an event featuring the dichotomy between economic religion and environmental religion. so we've got, also, "habeas corpus" coming out with anthony

gregory who's a new author, so we're very excited about that, and we'll be, we'll be kind of -- we'll be investigating some new works early in the fall, but we've got some exciting, exciting projects on the horizon. one to look out for next year would be a book that we're terming "the dirty dozen" for now, but it's going to take a look at the dirtiest dozen government failures over the past 100 years. so that should be, that should be very interesting, something difficult to keep, to keep in the mind. >> um, now, tell me, does the institute have its own press, or do they publish through someone else? >> explain how this works. >> the institute does publish our own books. we also work with outside publishers. as you see here, some of our books are self-published. leviathan, lessons from the