he is the poster boy for an educational system's success. fortunately for the united states and the west, he has matured as a defensive and tempered islamist. not like the saudi monarchy and moslem brotherhood. offensive and intolerance ones. even with these differences the saudis overseas missionary activities are an indispensable aid to the al qaeda's organizational, military and media activities. through expatriates' on the creatures, islamic ngos and direct funding by riyadh for local islamic organizations the saudis have created muslim fear in most areas of the world that are alienated and hateful toward the west. ..

>> please tell us what it's teat led. >> "wild card." >> and tell us a bit about the book and how you came up with the idea. >> sure. i wrote it during the '08 campaign and have continued to write it since then. my publishers didn't think it'd get out in time for the campaign, so it gave me the chance to update it over the last two years. you know, it's really an overview of her life and politics and since then, of course. >> so with all of the book withs that have come out about her since '08, what do you think is going to be new in yours that we haven't heard before? >> yeah. i think my book has a chapter on her faith that is, i think,

unique among the other books. especially, i think, what's significant is that this is really the first, the closest that somebody coming from a pentacostal background b, sort of the wing of christianity has come to this kind of high office. and i think there are ramifications there that are interesting and that i explore in the book. >> did she assist in the book, did she participate? >> no. no, it's independent. >> thank you very much. >> and we're back at the 2011 annapolis book festival at the key school in maryland. next, jehanne wade discusses her book, "sisters of fortune." >> well, before we get started, i'll ask the audience members, silence their cell phones and

pagers. of course, folks who are at home watching on c-span, they're welcome to keep the ring tones on. welcome to the 2011 annapolis book festival at the key school and the session, "ladies ahead of their time." my name is glenn campbell, and i'm senior historian for a nonprofit education organization. you can find us online at annapolis.org. it's my pleasure to introduce jehanne wake this morning. she's graduate of oxford university and the author of the biographies, "princess louise," and the history of two families in banking. jehanne loves to write about women, wealth and power. and those elements figure strongly in her latest book. "sisters of fortune: america's sisters at home and abroad," is

the story of the intertwined lives of mary ann, bess, luis saw and -- luis saw and emily cayton. for a time the cayton's were annapolis girls, but the wider world beckoned. after opening remarks, we'll have some questions pack and forth, and we'll then invite questions from the office. jehanne will be in the building next door to sign books at 11:50. so please welcome jehanne wake, and then i'll pose the first question to her. [applause] can you give us sort of a thumbnail sketch of each of these four women to get us startedsome. startedsome -- started? >> yes, of course, glenn. thank you for your introduction.

the eldest, marie ann, who was born in 1788 in annapolis, she was very beautiful. dark with luminous, huge, black eyes. and throughout her life people were instantly attracted to her. she had a very warm, sympathetic personality. finish she was very -- she was very discreet, and everyone adored her including her sisters, her family and everyone she met with rare exceptions. she, unfortunately, suffered severely froms asthma which would influence her life and effect her health, obviously. but also where she ended up living. the next sister is bess. bess was independent, rather indecisive. she could never quite decide between her various suiters. but she was also

independent-minded, determined to marry only for love which was slightly unusual in those days and particularly for a daughter of a rich mother and grandfather like charles care rollton. next came the third sister, louisa, who was petite, feisty, determined, very good manager. she was excellent at running houses and estates in later life. she loved jewelry, particularly pearls and diamonds. the younger sister was rather in contrast to her three elder ones. emily was the plain sister. she had those sightly upturn -- slightly upturned carroll like. she was the one who stayed at home and was happiest living with her family looking after

them. she was a very good nurse. if anyone was sick in the family, it was, send for emily, and she would oblige. she loved it. in a way, when i was writing this book, i rather thought of louisa alcott's "little women," because we have mary ann, gentle and beautiful, we have bess, the independent one who wrote all the letters home. then we have louisa and emily who was the one who loved being at home. so i think that for a writer they were wonderful sisters because they were quite contrasting in both their looks and their personalities. >> and do you want to set up sort of their story with some of their background here in maryland and sort of their initial reception. >> yes. >> when they get to england.

>> yes, i'd love to do that, and i think it's particularly appropriate speaking here at the key school because the emphasis in their upbringing, the way they were raised by their grandfather was to consider education very important. charles carroll of carrollton, as many of you know, was a gentleman of the enlightenment. he himself had been raised and taught in europe and in england. and he instilled in his family a love of learning. he had excellent libraries in his houses, and the family priest would double as a -- [inaudible] so the sisters learned latin. highly unusual for girls in those days. but they also benefited from the changes that were going on in america at the time, ask we're talking -- and we're talking here of the period, the end of the 18th century and the beginning of the 19th century. so the postrevolutionary period.

and i thought i would just read you a pass only about their -- passage about their upbringing and what was going on in america at the time in terms of the development of the education of women. when a character in the graduation play at greenfield academy playfully asked, really, now, what do you think of these times? everybody's going to school. do you think they gets any good by it? the "everybody" referred not to those traditional scholars' boys, but to girls. this was remarkable because in america, as in england, female education throughout most of the 18th century had been really a haphazard pastime for even the upper-class girl. she might be taught to read and spell, but it was considered more advantageous to prepare her for her future decorative role in society.

so embroidery, a little music perhaps taught by a governess, dancing and drawing by a dancing master either from home or a fee at adventure schools were of an uneven quality. but in the decades following the revolution, there was a dramatic change. mary ann and her sisters were of the generation of well-to-do young women who benefited hugely from the public debates about female education which intense withfied in the early -- intensified in the early 1800s. and writers on both sides of the atlantic were emphasizing, and i'm talking mostly here about female writers, of course, were emphasizing the need for better education for girls to end courage their self-respect and remove sexual inequality, and the interest in the subject led to what was called the age of

academies. starting in 1790, at least 350 female academies were established in the united states, and this was before 1860 when there was, would be an e author mouse growth in female education. so when the napoleonic wars prevented mary ann from crossing the atlantic and receiving a french education as had been traditional in her family, her parents, richard and mary carroll cayton, were able to give her a decent american one. in the autumn of 1802, mary ann traveled to philadelphia, home to some of the foremost academies in the country and enrolled at the green hill young ladies' academy. in philadelphia. now, she was taught the usual subjects for a girl, but additionally she was taught to study geography, history, mathematics, science and a lovely phrase, the system of the

universe. besides a lot of other subjects. her grandfather, charles carroll of carrollton, however, considered the most important lessons that she was learning were lessons to do with how to conduct her life. and he reminded her in a letter written on february the 2nd, 1803, that the fleeting pleasures of the world leave a dreadful void in that heart which feels not the blessedness of virtue. to you wish -- do you wish for happiness, he asked? by virtuous. do you wish to gain the love and esteem of those whose affection and esteem will render you esteemable in your own eyes? be virtuous. even the vicious secretly venerate it, he assured her. virtue, you see, my childing, he

continued, in the opinion of the poet acquired grace invincible from beauty and youth. and these words that i've just quoted come, of course, from the poet milton. which he knew mary ann was familiar with milton's work, "paradise lost," because they read them in the family. and this will give you some idea of the way in which he raised his granddaughters, that they should be familiar with such works and read them for themselves. but there was another reason for the 'em sis of virtue. her grandfather was also sharing how she could best serve her country as a republican girl. benjamin rush, physician, signer and supporter of female education, had declared in 1778 virtue, virtue alone is the basis of a republic. for it was the virtuous citizen

who, by adhering to the highest moral standards, would insure the stability of the new republic. virtue was not demanded, of course, of women as citizens. they had been granted no rights of citizenship in the constitution. but it was granted to them as fit companions, be the you like, for republican -- if you like, for republican men. guarantors of masculine virtue. so young ladies like mary ann were assured in the periodicals of the day, the magazines that they read, that, for instance, society is interested in your goodness. the sort of thing we wouldn't necessarily read in the magazines that we might be flicking through at the hair dresser's. you polish our manners, correct our devices and inspire our hearts with a love of virtue. by being a moral force, girl like mary ann and her sisters could transform manners into

mores, into the moral foundations of the society that was being formed in the early days of the new republic. and so by doing that, their continued influence would banish from america those crimes and corruptions which have never yet failed as giving rise to tyranny or an anarchy. finish can anarchy. in other words, to the corruption of the ancient world like britain and france. why you, thus, keep a country virtuous, you maintain its independence. and if these young women were to assume such a crucial role in the nation's life, they would need to be better educated than their mothers had been. then they could make, and i quote, the american people in general an example of honor and virtue to the rest of the world. and so this was the underlying reason, if you like, for this window of opportunity for

women's education in this years of the early -- the late 18th century and the first two decades of the 19th century. and mary ann and her sisters benefited from this hugely, so they had the type of education that they were having privately at home from their grandfather, and then the mix education that -- the public education that they were able to have. and i feel sure that in their lives to come this, if you like, emphasis on their republicanism, what they could do to serve their country, was something they carried with them throughout their lives. and, of course, much of their later lives was spent not in america, but elsewhere as we'll discuss. >> yes. much of the book we then have these educated, virtuous republican women, and then the three eldest go back to europe; corrupt and governed by

patronage and politics. what is the reception they find there when they first arrive? >> when they first arrive, which was in 1816, american women -- and certainly american republican women -- were hardly, hardly known. because of the freezing of the atlantic waters to travelers, people had not gone on trips, on measured trips. so when they arrived, they were considered -- when it was discovered that they were americans -- that they would automatically be ill-mannered, uncouth, certainly not educated, almost sort of like savages. in fact, in my book with i use an illustration of a british cartoon which was published at the time, of course, of the american war of independence which shows a beautifully bewigged georgia lady berating an american so-called savage. and this attitude continued, and it was the attitude that the

sisters met in 1816. so imagine when they were first introduced into society because they were given wonderful letters of introduction by the wife of the british minister in washington to her family, and they were invited to attend social functions, to be presented at court and, most of all, a signal honor, their first invitation because was to dinner. well, londoners, particularly sophisticated londoners, did not really ever invite foreign visitor to dinner. however illustrious they were. usually, they would be invite today a soiree, certainly not to dine and to dine with very powerful members of the british establishment. so when the sisters were received into society and found to be educated, beautiful,

delightful women able to converse about the politics of the day, education, music, theater, people were absolutely amazed. it was as if they were there a different planet. they couldn't believe that they were americans and, indeed, bess was complemented on her beautiful english, how well she spoke it. so, you know, it was -- they became, in effect, ambassadresse s and presented europeans with a new way of looking at americans and the country. >> the future king george iv, the prince exclaimed, see the specimen that america has sent us. so there really is that sense they do represent to british society a different sort of american. these are american women who

don't pick their teeth in public and don't scratch themselves in embarrassing places. [laughter] so how do they, how do they sort of reset how the british see americans in the early 19th century? >> well, i think they reset it by, first of all, being intelligent and well-mannered, as i've said, women. but, also, they were able to -- they were masters of the art of conversation. and in those days wit and intellect were prized in society. the contrast between them and young women first out having made their debut was quite remarkable. the caton sisters were more on the level of the assured political hostesses that we can read about. the women like lady caroline lamb, the wife of the foreign

secretary who was the star of the congress of vienna when the nations of europe were discussing peace in europe. and these, so they didn't really fit in, if you like, with the young british ingenue who blushed and sort of blurted out and couldn't really talk about anything. they were much more, they were much nearer to the well-established hostess who would be holding a -- and meeting and discussing events of the day and meeting foreign diplomats. they carried these out remarkably well. they were in their 20s and so, you know, interested in who her dancing partner was going to be. the fact they had much more to offer made them very popular, and they received proposals of marriage almost from the beginning of their time in europe. i mean, pez and louisa, of

course, mary ann was already married. >> you talk about the introductions they first received and they make a very important connection almost immediately. can you tell us some about that and how that really shapes their experience in england from that point on? >> indeed, it did. because at the first dinner parties that they attended when they were like store holders setting out their wares, if you made a mistake at a dinner party, you would not be invited again. and if you tried the patience of your hostess, then she would either laugh and enjoy the joke, or she would make sure that you were crossed off her list. so if people didn't see you at the next party, they would assume you were unacceptable to society. the sisters, however, at the first dinner party to which they were invited by. [applause] pole to meet -- mrs. pole to meet the duke of wellington who

was the hero of all europe. he was, he haded conquered napoleon, he had brought peace to europe after decades of war. and be -- everyone wanted to meet him. he was lionized in society. i can't think of an equivalent today. and he was at this dinner party. he met the sisters. he was immediately attracted to mary ann, the elder sister. he escorted them all after dinner to go to the club, perhaps the equivalent of, let's see, by jewish in london -- bijou in london where prince william has been seen many times with kate middleton. and he proceeded over the ensuing week -- it was only a

week that they were in each other's company at social events -- to fall many love with her. and -- to fall in love with her. and through his attraction and care of the caton sisters whom he squired around all the social events, they went to take the waters, and he was there with his wife -- he was married, with his duchess and boys, and they made a large party and all got on. and be as a result of this, the duke became almost a surrogate father to louisa. he and the duchess adored her. and when she received a proposal of marriage by his adc, a military secretary, felton harvey, the duke was delighted. it was as if he'd arranged the marriage himself, and he immediately offered with his duchess' consent to have the wedding at his house in london. so from then on the sisters were in the society of, really, the

most important man in europe and england. and he cared for them. he, of course, was married. mary ann was married, but the theme of their love for each other continues throughout the book and lasts until his death. and as i say in the book, when he, his last letter to her was written on valentine's day, shortly before he died. it was a great, loving friendship, and i think one of the most poignant stories that i tell. >> can you tell us a little bit about the men that the four women did marry? >> well, they, mary ann married in 1806 robert patterson who came from a baltimore mercantile family. and as we were discussing earlier, robert had a very celebrated sister. would you like me to say

something here about that? >> sure. >> i, i feel that mary ann was attracted to robert because he had come from europe. he had been sent by his father to europe to rescue his sister, betsy, elizabeth patterson as she then was elizabeth patterson bone part, moan to everyone as betsy -- known to everyone at betsy bone part. a tremendous character, very strong-willed, and she had married the youngest brother of that pole loan. napoleon did not approve and did his dammeddest to make sure betsy was never received in europe. he had the marriage annulled. this left betsy in a bit of a state, and she was left by jerome. he went to meet napoleon to plead for his wife to be

received, but napoleon was much stronger than jerome, and this never happened. so betsy found her way by ship to the only port in europe that would receive her which was london because everywhere else was in the -- belonged to napoleon. he'd conquered those countries. so robert went to rescue her and came back to baltimore with betsy who by this time was so famous. she was the suffering victim of this tyrant, napoleon. and so at the dances and balls of the period, betsy attracted attention, and it sort of rubbed off on robert who was a more solid figure, i feel. but, of course, all the belles of the day were attracted to him because he looked very handsome in his wellington boots, of course, as they were known. and so, and he courted mary ann, and she agreed to marry him.

wanted to marry him. her mother wasn't very happy, didn't really think that he was the right man for her. but the marriage took place, and it lasted physical he died in 18 22. i would say that they were companions. it wasn't a great love match, and she didn't find enormous happiness in the marriage. but he looked after her, and they lived quite contentedly. her second husband was quite a different ilk because when she returned to europe in 1824, she paid a visit with bess partly because her grandfather had said should she will go to ireland, would she look up some of the gene yo logical record and find out more about the kay roll family -- carroll family

history. and, indeed, she did do this. but in the course of their short visit, they were presented to the lord left tenant of ireland who was like a reigning monarch in ireland on behalf of the king. and this man was none other than richard marcus wellesley, the eldest brother of the duke of wellington. and he proceeded immediately to court mary ann, but in a very forward way with letters, poems. he wooed her. it was a barrage of attentions. he wanted to drive out with her, and she was flustered. i mean, it was so unexpected. she was quite a measured person, and she, you could see, i mean, from the letters. she's torn. she's supposed to be going back to america. here was a man who was a great statesman, he had been a governor in india, he had been foreign secretary, almost prime minister of britain for a period. he couldn't form a government,

but he was asked to do so. and he was the eldest brother of the duke of wellington. his eyes, his eyebrows, his voice, there were great similarities. and i think as we were discussing earlier that she was, also, attracted to richard wellesley because of her grandfather. and richard wellesley was older than mary ann's own mother. so there's enormous age difference. and best thought this was so romantic, so mary ann married richard wellesley in 1825. bess couldn't decide which suitor, she vacillated, and she didn't marry until she was in her 40s, and she married george baron stafford, the only sister to marry a catholic, and he was a widower with 13 or 14

stepchildren -- i mean, children who became her stepchildren, so she was kept quite busy. it was a short marriage, but a happy one. [laughter] and louisa married in 1817 colonel felton harry -- harvey. hero of the peninsula war. he had one arm. he was a very eligible, very attractive man and trusted by wellington who he was very close to. and so mary ann, louisa -- the sisters lived almost like part of wellington's family from then on. but, tragically, felton died suddenly in 1819 of diphtheria. louisa was completely devastated. she wasn't tempered like her sister, it was all or nothing. so when she was widowed and bereaved, she was bereaved.

she wouldn't leave her room, everything was draped in black, and this lasted for a good year. it took her a long time to recover from felton's death. but in 1828 she married again an even more eligible man who was five years younger. his title was francis marvin, known as ka by her, and he was the heir to a dukedom. lou wiess saw she herself admitted married very well and became the first american duchess to wear the strawberry tiara which only duchesses can wear. and it was a happy marriage. only saddened by her inability to have children and bear ka the much-desired heir. and then we have emily, the one who stayed at home.

emily married a canadian fur trader, john mctalfish. and she lived for a very short time after her marriage in montreal and was awfully homesick. as soon as she possibly could, she persuaded john that his future lay much more in be maryland than it did in canada. so, eventually -- well, shortly afterwards, they returned and lived thereafter in maryland. he was a british subject and became the british could be suggest of baltimore. and they had four children and grandchildren and descendants. >> so of all these men in the lives of these four women, we were talking before the session started in the authors' lounge -- had a great discussion leading up to this one, but we were talking about all these men, suitors, lovers, husbands

never seemed to be able to measure up to the grandfather, charles carroll carrollton. what do you want to say about the influence that he had in their lives? what sort of standard did he set? >> i think he set a very high standard. he was the formative influence in their lives, and his, his eldest daughter, elder daughter -- mary -- had married someone who was hopeless with money and was rescued by charles carroll of carrollton which is why the sisters were raised largely by him. he was, undoubtedly, the formative influence in their lives. and they wrote affectionate letters to him all their lives. no man, i think, ever measured up to him. mary ann probably thought she was coming nearest it when she married richard wellesley. she was to be disappointed, i have to say. he certainly didn't measure up

to her grandfather. and i think that mary ann had to almost rescue him in some ways, and it was not a particularly happy marriage. and the same was true for all the sisters. their husbands were, in bess' case a very nice widower, but not a great intellect. similarly, louisa, i think perhaps felton might have come the nearest in the sense that he was, provided for, he was a good husband, loving husband, and he also was a man who had a position in life. and emily's husband was liked very much by charles carroll of carrollton. they used to play cards together. and, but, again, john mctavish was not of charles carroll's ilk. so i think in that way charles

carroll provided security and protection for the sisters, and they searched for that in their husbands. but in a way it was the other way around, they were providing that security for them. >> i thought it was interesting that i think if i'm correct what really got you on to their story was looking at women engaged in business in the early 19th century. can you say something about what got you started on this journey to learn about the catons, and what -- how did they involve themselves in business in ways that were very unusual for women at the time? >> they were, they were very much as this talk is called, ladies ahead of their time in that respect. i came to write the book not because i knew anything about the caton sisters or, indeed, that they were even american. i came to write it because i was asked by bbc radio to look into the question of how involved or whether women in the 19th

century even knew anything about the world of finance. and i went along to a city of london bank to look in their archives and see if they had any women clients that could support this thesis either way. and there i discovered a letter. it was written by an e. caton, and it was completely extraordinary. it blew me away. it was all about investing money in the stock market. and she was writing to a friend and advising her that if peace negotiations were contracted, they ought to buy spanish bonds. peace was about the civil war then in spain. because the price would go up, and they would actually, therefore, make quite a lot of money. and i thought, wow, we haven't heard this sort of voice before. the letter was written in the 1820s when women were not supposed to know anything about stocks and bonds or even be in a

position to do anything about it if they did know. and so this set me on the trail, particularly when i discovered that e. caton was elizabeth caton, that she was an american and that she came from maryland. she had three sisters, and they were all investing, as it turned out. and with their friends. and one of the most interesting things i discovered was that the sisters were part of a network of lady investors. they would invest for each other because this was a period before the women's marriage -- married women's property act. so if you were married, you didn't own anything. however, you could give your single friends money to invest, and they would do it in their name for you, so if you wanted to hide a little bit of money away from your husband, you just gave it to your sister or one of her friends, and she would do it for you. i thought, great, you know?

[laughter] and they were doing this, you know, as i say, in the early federal period. and betsy bone a part was also doing it here. of course, she was a woman who was supposedly divorced by annulment of napoleon. and she didn't invest so much in stocks and shares. her thing was property. and she built up an enormous portfolio of properties. be but she, when she was in europe, she would get her aunt, an unmarried aunt over here to do more or less the same thing for her. so this is very much a transatlantic thing in certain circles. and this was what set me out to write the book. and i, and i think that perhaps this has been missed in the past because of the way women wrote their letters. i mean, you know, they at no time just write a business letter. so bess' letter in the archives

at this city bank was not just about the investments. it was interweaved with comments about, you know, what was she going to wear to court that day and, ooh, who was going to be at the ball the next -- oh, and do tell me about the chilean bonds. do you think we should buy some more? oh, and i hear mrs. wellesley's had a new baby. and, so for people reading letters quite quickly, they could miss these little nuggets as i'm sure i would have done had i not been looking for a specific thing. and i'm so pleased i did because, you know, it started me off on this journey of writing about the sisters of fortune. >> i think that's one of the interesting points you make in that part of the book, how the sisters' connections politically and socially helped them in their business dealings because they're rubbing shoulders with the duke of this and the duchess of that and they're going to this party and that party, and

they're hearing hints being dropped about, oh, maybe peace might break out, or maybe something might happen here. that does give them a business advantage. >> it does. it certainly does. and they used it very well. because they would, you know, as you say, be talking to the foreign secretary and hear the latest news. someone might even come in the middle of the dinner or with a latest dispatch to tell him. and, you know, most days -- men especially, i think, i have to say, talked about everything quite openly. so it wouldn't be kept a secret. everybody there would be told, and the word would get around. so the next day they would immediately act accordingly in terms of asking their broker to buy or sell based on what they'd heard the previous evening. >> shall we open up to audience questions? anyone have anything they'd like to ask? there's one here.

>> i was interested in knowing anything more you would say about their religious belief and practice. and then just generally, i was wondering how looking at time period, how did you evaluate the relationship between britain and the united states? >> gosh, those are two very interesting subjects. i, the sisters were brought up in a devout catholic family, and when they went to england in 1816, when the three elder ones went to england, they were really rather stunned because after the revolution here there was freedom of worship. and they could, they could be taught by catholic priests, they could -- there were convents and churches being built. when they got to england, there was no catholic emancipation.

catholics were second-class citizens. they were unable to enter the military, there were no catholic schools, catholic churches. you could, you could worship privately, but publicly catholics didn't exist. and so this meant that they were, they formed a very close society on their own to which, obviously, the sisters had access. but what was interesting was that there was no discrimination against the sisters personally as catholics. and i think partly this was because the people they met were tolerant this a private sense. they might not allow a catholic like, indeed, barron stafford, to go to a university or to become prime minister, but they were quite happy to allow their daughter to dance with him. so there was that difference, if you like.

where the faith affected them was when they married into protestant families. and louisa who was the first to do this in england encountered a huge amount of hostility from felton harvey's family. who were appalled. they were rather reluctant to acknowledge louisa. she was an american, after all. but most important, she was a catholic. and the idea of having catholic grandchildren was not something that they welcomed. also they were concerned that felton's career might be affected by having a catholic wife. he might not receive promotion, or he might be discriminated against. so this proved a stumbling block but not enough to prevent the marriage. because, after all, louisa was under the protection of the duke of wellington, and the harvey

family weren't going to cross him. when -- and of course, i ought to point out here that mary alabama, who had married in 1806 in america, had married into the patterson family, and be they were protestants originally from the north of ireland. and there's a lovely letter written by the bishop of baltimore, john carroll, before he became archbishop lamenting the fact that the caton women -- even the sisters' mother -- had chosen to marry out of their faith. and how he did his best, but he had somehow failed to provide them with catholic husbands. so there was a tradition in the family for marrying out, to use that phrase. when it came to louisa's second marriage, again, she married a protestant. and this was viewed with much more hostility because it was, also, at the time of all the debates about catholic emancipation in england, and

louisa's future mother-in-law, the duchess of leeds, was completely against the \. and the -- against the marriage. and the duke was so against it that he tried to disinherit his sop and refused ever to meet -- his son and refused ever to meet louisa. she had to wait until 1848 before she even stepped foot inside hornby castle. so it was difficult, but louisa was fairly determined, and she and ka married. and, in fact, her money was used to look after him in the beginning which he didn't like at all and, indeed, set about changing this. but it was quite interesting to marry a rich, the rich heir of a duke and actually have no money. [laughter] so i think that the catholic theme, if you like, throughout, throughout the book is one of, of difficulty.

it, it could have actually insured that the sisters were not received in society at all. but they seemed to overcome this. people didn't seem to mind when they met them. and there were very few comments ever made about them being catholics except by the families into which they married. when it came to their reception as americans and the relationship between -- which i think is what you'd like me to answer in the second part of your question -- the relationship between britain and america, again, in the beginning they were viewed with great condescension. the, britain had never quite forgiven america for the war of 1812 at a time when britain felt that she was saving the world from napoleon. here she was having to deal with what she still considered to be a sort of unruly child, you know, causing a lot of trouble and fuss in america when she had

much more important things to consider. so, and then when america tried to annex canada, well, that was, that was the last straw. so although peace, the treaty of gent in 1814 brought about peace between the two countries, it was, it was fragile socially and even politically. it wasn't really until the late about 1816, '18, that sort of period, that relations became smoother and more conciliatory between the two countries. the sisters, therefore, were viewed with great suspicion when they got to england as americans. and as i said in the beginning, you know, i think they just wowed everyone with their, with their diplomatic skills. and even when they were talked down to and told that they were all very well for americans, this was a phrase that became a stock phrase in the family and

in their letters they would write all well, which was shorthand for they were still being complemented on being told, oh, they're all very well for americans. so that this underlay their lives in america. but i do have to say that by the end of their lives they were completely accepted. and by then, of course, there were many more americans visiting britain. and many more tourists and people in british public life. so in a way they paved the way, i like to think. >> we may, perhaps, have time for one more quick question. start right here first. >> could you give me some sense of how long into the 19th century they lived? and then what, could you find any of their relationship, for instance, to the issue of slavery and also the beginnings of the women's suffrage movement both in england and in the united states at that time. >> >> yes.

they lived until -- mary ann died in 1853, the year after the duke of wellington died. she was the first sister to die. bess and emily died in the 1860s. bess died during the civil war. and i looked so hard in their letters for mention of the civil war, of the issues surrounding the civil war, of slavery, and i have to say that their silence was loud. on the judgment r -- subject. they never mentioned it. bes s&l ouisa mentioned the state maryland was in because this was after war had been declared because luis saw wanted to build a school for girls in baltimore. and bishop kendrick wrote back

saying he thought this really wasn't a very good time to be doing this because baltimore was overrun with soldiers and things were a little uneven. wasn't a very peaceful, tranquil time. that's the only mention i could find in their letters about it. slavery. they were brought up on plantations in maryland. the carroll fortune was supported by slavery and had been for generations. the sisters were presented in the carroll family tradition with body maids when they were very young by their grandfather, and they kept these body maids with them. they became sort of companions and stayed on until later in life, until their maturity. indeed, mary ann's trusted personal servants, they always called them servants.

and, indeed, even addressed them with titles so the head seam stress was miss ruthie, the housekeeper was miss nelly and so on. and be henny johnson who was mary ann's slave -- servant -- accompanied her to europe where, of course, to england where, of course, as soon as she got off the ship she was free. but she chose to stay with mary ann, and henny died in king son on thames in 1910. she was the last of, if you might like, the family to survive. when mary ann died, bess -- she was looked after by bess and then by louisa, and an annuity was settled on her. other than that, nothing in the letters at all about that. and, indeed, about suffrage. which, you know, abolitionism, equal rights -- well, rights of

some sort -- were being discussed by women and, indeed, by their peer group. they don't seem to have mentioned it. now, whether those letters were destroyed, whether they decide never to write about them because they felt it would embarrass their family, i don't know. i never found out. >> well, thank you very much. i think we need to wrap up now, but i will invite all of you to join jehanne right next door where she'll be signing books. thank you for coming. >> thank you very much. [applause] [inaudible conversations] >> that was jehanne wake on the caton sisters. for more information visit jehannewake.com. we'll be back with more from the annapolis book festival in just a few moments. >> have this enormous following, and you're a kind of cult

figure, and i was trying to figure out -- [laughter] is there any recent historical figure that you think you are analogous to? i mean, feel free to -- [laughter] throw off the restraints of modesty. >> i mean, it's clear that 10,000 people are coming together because they want to, i mean, because they're drawn to the same vision as each other, and they want to spend a day thinking about and reflecting on the incredible progress we've made in the last 20 years against what is a true crisis in our country, this issue of educational inequity, and what more each of us needs to do individually and collectively to solve the problem. so it's not really -- >> but you will be treated as a kind of rock star. [laughter] >> you know what? the sad reality is maybe we would all wish, but they'll be my critics and my friends and it'll be fun, but, you know, it's not all a love fest. >> i think closest analogy i

could come up with was the marine corps. [laughter] tough to get in, and then they send you to really nasty places. [laughter] right? and i was wondering, you know, how in the movies there's always that moment where the one tough guy meets the other tough guy, and they're about to get in a fight, and the one guy says, wait, were you in nam. yeah, i was in nam. and they go, semperfy. [laughter] i wondered, is there an analogous moment when two teaching alums get together and say, where'd you serve? south bronx, and then they show each other their teach for america tattoos. [laughter] but there is this -- i mean, i'm joking, but there is a kind of -- you are creating a kind of movement. i mean, the marine corps alumni represent a kind of movement representing a certain attitude

toward or the world's -- >> this is exactly the idea. i mean, this is the big idea, you know? and teach for america really isn't about -- we are about teachers are critical, but teach for america is about building a movement among our country's future leaders to say we've got to change the way our education system is fundamentally. and i think, and your article in the new yorker about, about the formation of movements just captured the whole theory of change of teach for america. this is about the foundational experience of teaching successfully in ways that, you know, we're creating a corps of people who are absolutely determined to expand the opportunities facing kids in the most absolutely, you know, economically disadvantaged communities, you know, who are pouring themselves into their work and trying to put their kids on a different trajectory and, you know, having varying

levels of success and taking from that experience incredible lessons. you know, they realize through their firsthand experience the challenges their kids face, the potential they have. they realize it's, ultimately, possible to solve the problem, and that experience is not only important for their kids, but it's completely transformational for them. and i think, of course, they're all going through this together. and i think believe with, with a common set of convictions and insights and just a common level of commitment to, ultimately, go out and effect the fundamental changes we need to really solve the problem. >> how many -- so you've got how many alumni now? >> we have 20,000 alums. >> and you, so you consider your alumni to be as important as your active teachers, if you're thinking of it in movement terms. >> yep. >> how many alumni do you need before you think you have a kind of critical mass? >> well, you know, i guess, you know, you never know, you know, what will lead this to the

tipping point. [laughter] >> you just bought yourself a good five more nice, softball questions with that. >> i think, you know, i don't know. this is growing exponentially at this point. you know, a mere, you know, five years ago we had 8800 alums, and today we have 20,000. if we can continue the growth trajectory we're on, we'll have 40,000 by a mere five years from now. and i look at what's happening many some communities where we have a critical mass of teach for america alums, communities where we've been placing people for, in some cases, 20 years, new orleans, washington, d.c., oakland, california, houston, texas, and in number or other places, in newark, new jersey, where very different things have happening today. if you took all the teach for america alums out of the picture, i think you'd take away a lot of the energy and leadership.

>> does the teach for america movement have an ideological personality? >> um, i think that people come out of this, and, you know, we probably have a bunch of -- you know, we have a diverse community, and people come into it viewing the issue that we're taking on in different ways and from different sides of the political spectrum. i think people come out of it sharing, largely sharing a few views. one, i think people come out of it knowing we can solve the problem. it's not that the kids don't have the potential and the participants don't -- parents don't care. i mean, if you look at gallup polls, and i'd be interested in seeing in the one now that i think the prevailing ideology has maybe started to shift a bit, but as of about three or four years ago, most people in our country thought that the reason we had low educational outcomes was because kids weren't motivated in low-income communities and parents don't