you were greeted on your toaster but you just said you think the message is more important than the medium. >> host: absolutely. so i kind of like the heft of it and the feel of it. >> guest: don't you think someone 100 years from now we'll say will say i really miss that parchment. >> host: i really miss that scroll. perhaps folks would have liked something a little more confrontational. they want to put me up against some i don't consider a friend for more than a quarter-century standing but it has been a great leisure. i wish you success with the book, and long may you prosper. thanks very much for joining us. ..

>> win at. [applause] >> good evening 54 inviting me to speak here tonight and also for two sabrina for doing such a great job but what i want to do tonight is talked so much briefly but i

will talk about it in terms of two mou threads. this book is designed to offer the updated history of civil war reconstruction that signifies the national capital for the understanding reconstruction at large and also about the importance of debate and the quality after emancipation and. i want to say something about the approach i am interested in the relationship between the government policy and the law and not strictly social or political history our legal history but the eclectic combination of all three. so the concept of equality and the popular politics out in term political structures shape and constrained and

with the lives that people live. why did i steady washington? it did not to not particularly well as translated by 1862 map of the city of washington the capital is seen as a city one whose history would not tell us anything useful about anything else beds it did not spring up as the industrial cloud it is not a state but it is the oddball. of the city of washington himself plays by the constitution under the exclusive jurisdiction of congress. but i find the unique status makes washington's history all the unique and more interesting. specifically about the civil war worth affairs collided

with local sparks in citizens attended sessions of congress and congressmen road and streetcars and a large as questions of the civil war era questions about slavery quality of the role of government in the lives of citizens played out in washington in. and following normal patterns in the ways that it was not secure in your relationship it is a particularly interesting and telling place to study. i know it may be hard to orient ourselves because it does not represent the city that we know now so i will point* out a few landmarks. here is the white house and here is for the washington monument is.

the mall as we know and now selling again memorial so the period but i am talking about the mall ended in the potomac river began just off to the left seat to see the effects of urban development and finally that is dupont circle with the populated urbanized area was much smaller than washington that we know anything from up on connecticut avenue up faster howard university goes north on seventh street none of those made it to the map because those were not considered the main parts of washington's city. that gives a sense of the city that is relatively smaller of course, they and the city we know now of washington. i will talk about this washington history talking

on three different points but first the relationship of african-american history and the second of urban reform and why washington was an example for all the way and. first-come a washington was the site of remarkable the african-american activism and to talk in general terms three groups of made up african-american the first it was for free african americans black washingtonians were free rather than enslaved if that meant there was an enormous culture of organized institutions, churches, as civil societies had african-american men and women had a fair number of people who left dc and went

to the north and often became teachers. some worked in federal positions, not necessarily with the clerical positions but as messengers. they knew many of the most powerful men in the country. so many washingtonians had powerful ties to people who could help them later. the african-americans to live before have a special leadership and the second population to the slaves who came into the capital during the civil war these people were escaping from slavery and the black the of washington because there were so many people and

thousands of people and they became important political constituency and chartered out their own political course going for word. >> the third group still more people who were born in the south came back like frederick douglass is an example of prominent african-american northerners who came to washington because they wanted to be close to the heart of the political nation and then looked later at the unparalleled african american education. so the show's a celebration of the emancipation 1876 guinness's the image on the cover of my book because the figures in the foreground are so interestingly drawn i

hope you can see this. in the center are three figures who are well dressed, relatively fancy clothes, off to their right you see a figure of a smaller one men who were using or wearing more casual clothes has scarves are more characteristic of those who have been enslaved when you see a group of men similarly dressed. what i like is the artist to do the picture was able to capture the diversity of washington african-american community in the pitcher. during the civil war washingtonians sought recognition of full and equal access to public schools and even the proceedings of congress and

demanded fair treatment equal access to trade unions and looking at what was going on with all the claims and demands was an eye to the relationship popular activism and policy it became clear that african americans were demanding rights and privileges and advance of legislation in the book i call those claims upstart to emphasize they were not claims to existing rights or supported by existing policy let me give you an example 1863 this this the photograph of the other colored troop does it represents black soldiers with their uniforms and they

play an important role. the troops were being recruited and the soldiers pulled the different companies and regiment together to demand access to the city streetcars. they themselves were from more time innovation and built to facilitate to get troops in materials from one side to the other and washington never have streetcars before when they were first running they had to exclude from the streetcars were to make them write on the platform. you can see two guys on the front of they would make african-americans you want to ride rides separately and you can imagine if it was raining or sleety more muddy

, you'd be more exposed to the elements it is not as nice of a place to ride. the soldiers did not wait for lawmakers to recognize or create a right to ride. they thought to created themselves by demanding equal access while wearing uniforms a publicly declare them to be worthy of respect and deference. legislators took no to began to discuss the matter some of this protests insist on the right to ride spring 1863 and five the printer 1864 this man who is the african american physician was refused a seat on the streetcar he was forced to walk in the range of the court-martial hearing and he was very annoyed he could not sit down inside the car and outlined in the incident

to the military judge and ford did to senator summer to read on the floor it is a process of a popular impulsive everyday soldiers followed by a more prominent band of a direct protests because washington is being discussed in congress at the same time. in the case of the streetcars black activism spurred a republican dominated congress some congressmen were primed because of their own view that emancipation should not stop with near freedom but the implementation of what word essentially abolitionist the notion that freedom itself would not be enough from emancipation but policies would need to be implemented to produce a more equal society so

together congressional activism made the capital an exemplar of the policy from when they declared emancipation months ahead of the proclamation until about an 1869. some examples are the end of the black code and the passage of the law against discrimination a canst and a public conveyances 1867 against before suffrage was mandated before the confederate states and the dropping of ratio qualification for jury service 1869. in the book i pay attention

to the rights of votes because with those people could restate the priorities of city government african-americans had one-third of the population could wield considerable power and they did so. during the period when republicans were in charge of city government before a major reorganization, the local government passed its own accommodations laws and appointed african american men and also at the black men to city council of most important government inaugurated major public-works projects a fairly between black and white so you can see dramatic changes in the government. this cartoon from "harper's

weekly" entitle georgetown elections because it held had its election before washington, all ideas throughout the nation on the election and this cartoon features the caricatures are stock figures with the african-american man casting a ballot then the republican and with the top had and the guy second from the left he is kind of a bitter former confederate standing next to and supporting the man on the left to was sandra johnson fan who vetoed the universal suffrage that was passed and congress had overridden the veto. says those who were physically a claim to the

veto some of the second major threat to talk about is what you may call urban reform on washington. the book tells the story of a dramatic restructuring with the district of columbia first 1871 and 1874 the restructuring of washington as a territorial government than a commission and i argue these innovations in the form of government with day bipartisan coalition user and a direct response from the reconstruction era changes from african-american men. most historians of use the leader to reorganize the existing structures as a

visionary who thought to elevate the capital city from the backboard antebellum passed back about what they don't do is place a separate reform in the context of emancipation black migration and african-american activism and the onset of voting rights. my argument is what they were doing was leading of backlash with the redistribution of power that accompanied it. they call themselves taxpayers and citizens and verse rated congress to restructure the government first reading territory it dramatically reduced officeholders so the only elected office is the remained were part of the legislature but most opposites of the government now held by appointed officials. i call this creation of the

territorial government washington's first redemption in order to emphasize that this restructuring in the name of good government and progress was consistent with movements elsewhere in the south have. while in power the government accomplished quite a bit with modernizing this city and this is a bird's-eye view of the city from that period that shows an amazing detail some of the development particularly of the northwest quadrant during this period. the placement of the capitol dome itself, directs your eye to that area of washington of dupont circle that was then the place the pro development government

investor friends were focusing their development so the remaining beautiful brick buildings of that area who are familiar, not too many are from the 1870's but 1880s from all focused development on that section in washington park ave accomplished a great deal but at its interest expense with the sense for the government to take control was very much not a government elected by the people. the second stage began in 18741 congress was reorganized this time placing it under their control of a three man commission. with this configuration nobody could vote for any elected official in washington is governed exclusively by three men appointed by the president of the united states and confirmed by the senate.

at the time considered very remarkable at the capital of the united states of america the people themselves were not allowed to choose their own representatives and that situation would last into the 19 sixties traditionally they were not restored for close to 100 years this situation persisted and the story i am telling helps to understand how the commission form of government was directly related in the politics of the reconstruction era. the third point* stems from that point*. washington as an example for all of the land. this is from charles sumner the senator who worked closely with black activist to pass legislation that represented the most racially progressive policies possible at that

time. but is congress politics shifted into a new polishing gains the upper hand congress prerogative made the capital an example of a different kind of disenfranchisement. the government was part of a broader climate of the north and the south of distrust and fear of self-government we're in the north the movements to dramatically limit the power of urban voters in primarily those who were attacked where voters of irish descent and would limit their power came to very little. this resulted by the 1890's of as well no. 1878 george spencer a white senator from alabama and

known as a carpetbagger thought the government in the capital threatened "the franchise of the poor man's throat two misstates whatever his race, color, nationality or creed and even forecast the abolishment of the elected government altogether. in other words, at the time the commission was being implemented people could see this was a and extreme part of the larger implementation polls agree or disagree the canary in the coal mine. the constitution federalist order prohibited congress most of the time for acting on residents of the state the district of columbia was different. this could be maddening for residents of the capital but makes for interesting and provocative history of the nation's most powerful lawmakers and residents may policy how they wanted when

there is virtually nothing of the constitution to restrain the power. now let me shift gears talking about the debate over a quality and hope the sense that a new framework for the study of the civil war era to direct attention to the topic of the struggle over a quality historians of emancipation made the concept of freedom their category. after slavery the meeting as related violence crucial but yet to it also inaugurated a great state over the future of the quality and in this book i start with the promise to understand what is going on in the 19th century viewing need to move beyond the idea people are either for or against a quality instead i a talk about the struggle with a

competing visions and i investigate who favored which kinds in which places and for what reason? i tried to run tango what contemporaries marinara talk about civil political and social inequality. 1858 abraham lincoln and said he had no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and the black reese's and in a standalone speech four years earlier lincoln said his own feelings did not admit of making former slaves politically or socially r =" end quote. but also argued for certain kinds of racial equality as he said in columbia's disclose ohio comex no reason in the world the negro is not entitled to the

national rights enumerated in the declaration of independence with life and liberty pursuit of happiness. however we to understand these contradictory ways of quality? what about before the war practical as it became after emancipation? it became essential goals of my research. i found generally speaking those said it agreed that equal treatment by law implicitly security of property and believe all people should have this formal equality before the law. also republicans as december's between this equality and political equality that refers to the right to vote. moderate republicans including lincoln tended to support civil equality but

not political for african-americans. here is where upstart claims came in. during the war african-americans and white radicals have insisted on a more expansive vision of fundamental equality before law that would be familiar to us now but very novel at the time. they argue he quality includes about of a fundamental civil right whose origins of the others were natural law and believe the principle of civil equality with that they must have equal access to common carriers of and other public accommodations. said during the postwar debate whenever radicals push the balance by demanding they equal right to vote or equal

accommodations opponents charge them speaking about what people profess to despise which is social equality. unlike the term civil equality, social equality has not actual content and concrete existence of people use social equality to describe what they saw is inappropriate government interference whatever relationships they believe could properly be considered private. for example,, senator johnson from maryland those amounted to a social equality measure. protection of african-americans life and property was acceptable alluding to natural rights for the government should not intervene in matters of political rights and social enjoyment.

but those had to do with the preference on our part for the city -- society that we d more equal. in other words, putting travel on streetcars with personal preferences as opposed to what should not be legislated. one conservative newspaper insisted congress should not enfranchise black men because the vote was purely social. whenever people came across people they did not like it they said it was a matter of social equality. interestingly this dynamic but african-american activist in an interesting position their response when they said we should be allowed to ride the streetcar is a the black says lowered to the public

schools equal the with white children they argued that had nothing to do with social equality in nearly seeking a broader and more expansive vision of the quality before the law an the people who oppose them or does agree. -- disagree so the overall picture the argument that people have is the argument over the content of these categories. we cannot take for granted in the case of wang dinar other other people that followed him it was clear of those three categories were rather than animating the debate was what actually belonged in each of those categories. . .

which became a key justification for racial segregation well into the 20th century. it is clear even on the most superficial assessment that there is something very complicated about this country's relationship to a quality. we have repeatedly declared that all men are created equal, but it goes without saying that determining what that statement and template its implications are if any for policy has been

one of the essential challenges and american public life. why do we tolerate certain kinds of inequality but not others? what are the possibilities and limitations to creating a more just society? as a historian, i don't think we can understand these questions about the present without reflecting on the past. i hope is that in addition to telling the story on the nation's capital in a pivotal period this look offers a piece in the larger puzzle of assessing the history of the quality and any quality in the united states. thanks. [applause] happy to take any questions or hear comments. >> i'm going to be very organized beginning with turning on the microphone, and if you have a question please raise your hand, and i will repeat that so that everyone can hear

it and we can pick it up and answer it. yes, sir. [inaudible] >> comparison between antebellum washington versus washington of the civil war reconstruction. >> sure. on what kind of terms would you like me to compare it? >> the development today black population and where they were at that time as opposed to -- [inaudible] >> sure. well, let's see. the city grew dramatically during the war, so the black population tripled and the white population also grew very dramatically, and so because as the federal government grew, the

government needed to perform all of these functions it had never performed before, and so all kinds of new clerks and sort of government -- are moving into the capitol capital during the civil war, just as fugitives from slavery are coming into macs of the capital is kind of rowing by leaps and bounds in terms of population. washington, the stereotype of washington before the wars that it it was kind of a sleepy, backwater. it is true that many of the kind of mainstream -- very few of the main streets were in any way paid. pennsylvania avenue was one of the few streets that had any kind of pavement or finished -- finishing on it so people complained about the dust in the mud, and so that actually commended the sort of occupation that happened during the war only exacerbates the condition of the streets. so part of what is going on in the outcry or in favor of urban

development in the period after the war is that the city was never particularly well-developed and in terms of grading and paving and that sort of thing and the civil war didn't help any in that respect. so, the other thing i guess i would say since we are so preoccupied with questions of government is that beginning -- so washington had its own city council and mayor from the early 19th century, from the first decade of the 19th century. georgetown had a separate mayor and city council and then the rest of the district of columbia was public county and governed separately. and, so originally the people who could vote for local offices in washington city were qualifications. in 1848 the property qualifications were dropped so until 1848 until 1867, the voters in the capital city were all white men and so all white men could vote and then black

men and women could not vote, so that gives you -- and in the city government was usually in the hands of sort of the economic elite, the business he lead, so one of the dramatic changes as once you have african-american men right to vote, it really reshapes the electorate, and it allows for people with different prior east to come into office locally, and that is part of the reason why a coalition develops, to kind of unseat that. >> yes, sir. [inaudible] >> why did it take so long? we are looking at over 100 years. >> that is a terrific question, and it is a complicated -- set of reasons why some washingtonians were not too

unhappy with the form of government. one of the things they make possible was it made possible that people with connections and in particular people with real estate connections had the commissioner so if you are of a certain class in a washington resident you didn't mind that there wasn't local self-government as you could get things done that you wanted to get done through kind of back channels directly to the people who work for the commissioners or their staff. so that is one reason. there was a certain amount of fear on the part of washington, some white washingtonians that local home rule would mean a significant population of african-americans. again like in reconstruction being able to reshape or to shape the city government. another thing to keep in mind is that particularly in the house of representatives, the

committee on the district of columbia for much of the 20th century was dominated and shared by outright segregationists from the south, and so to the extent that anything could have happened, any reforms could have been done by congress, congressman used d.c. to make a point about what their politics were and kind of bill after bill after bill to reform government in d.c. and give local people more control died on the d.c. committee of the house of representatives. so things start to loosen up in the 1960s and there is a relationship between the kind of flowering of the civil rights movement in the 1960s and opening up a possibility for home rule in d.c.. >> yes, sir. >> played a very important role in redemption during and after

construction. why did they play a similar role in -- [inaudible] >> did violence play a role in the redemption of washington's city? >> know, so that is an interesting question. and no, there was not -- there were periodic -- the answer is no. there were sort of episodes of racial violence but actually they didn't connect to the redemption that i'm talking about, the kind of changing form of government. one of the things i want to highlight i talking about washington's redemption in those terms is that actually redemption and the states of the former confederacy wasn't always violent are there. that in some places our vision of it, at least i think right now many of us have a vision of kind of rampant and organized plan, the kind of plan and democratic party combined

coalition and the violent campaign so overthrow republican government and that certainly was the case in a lot of states but in other states, particularly in the border south, particularly in places like virginia, not that there wasn't violence and virginia but in terms of politics redemption happened much sooner and been virginia. in fact there almost was no reconstruction at all and it happened mostly to political panels. so, i think the same or similar could be said with respect to tennessee, but more to the point, a lot of the similar rhetoric about the government also characterizes kind of the period of redemption in other states, and so what i think is interesting to think about it one of the reasons i think it is interesting to think about d.c. this way is that it draws our attention to the political rather than the political match in nations that many kind of of the more respectable --

machinations of the respectable but anti-republican southerners went through in order to take back the states from the republicans. >> yes, sir. >> one of the most widely criticized episodes and the lincoln presidency was he had -- to be pioneers in conservation efforts. >> sure. i would be happy to. thank you. so, in a course -- the question was, sorry. >> up the right. >> i have done some research on think in meeting the sword is famous meeting that lincoln had with a delegation of five black man from washington and part of a cop interested in getting to the bottom of this was that usually the story is told that the five men that lincoln met with were just released from slavery, newly freed man who

would be likely pliable. he could give his proposal that they were going to take the people and colonize abroad and they would supposedly say oh sure, whatever you say because you are the president of the united states. and they are reasons why historians thought that. at least one person, edward thomas was known to not be recently emancipated -- emancipated person. the more i did research on the actual people who were living in washington and i kept coming across, that i knew the names of the five men who met with lincoln i kept finding them in other places too. they were leaders of 15th street presbyterian church, the most elite church in washington. they were it was believed had connections to the white house or congress. they were teachers a couple of them. they were black masons,

freemasons i began kind of keeping a running list of all of the ways that i could identify these men, and it was very clear from a variety of sources that they weren't obviously -- they were precisely members of that long-standing freak lack community from washington. and so, it got me thinking about a lot of things about that meeting. one of the other mysterious things about the meeting that i thought was considering the amount of attention that was given to that meeting, and considering the importance of the issue at the time, the delegation should have given an official response to lincoln. you would have thought that after this very controversial meeting the delegation would have said okay we met with the president and here's what we think. here so we are going to do, are there yes or no. but there had was no response. so i was wondering why they never got back to lincoln or where there was never a prominent editorial thing saying here is what the delegation is going to say.

and so, basically i ended up feeling like i needed to write this. probably to correct the record and pearly to tell some of the interesting things i found about a debate among lack washingtonians about who should comprise the delegation in the first place. who would get to go to this meeting, what did they represent, which of their position be? and so, basically my research on the history of washington in the city led me to kind of uncover some new aspect of that famous lincoln story. kind of pose from the perspective of the delegation. >> my question is about people and their movement. i have recently read that the book, the fiery trials, when

lincoln got to washington in 1847, that the black population were about 70% freed. you stated that in 1860, the city was about 60% freed. i know that statistics lie, so my question is, who is moving into washington in the 1850s among the black population? we know about the civil war period in which most of the population was white and black but is there some way to drive this apparent contradiction of the statistics bear? >> who is moving into washington in the 1850s in terms of the african-american population, and

and -- or moving out? can we offer an explanation to that discrepancy? >> i think there might be -- i think it might be a discrepancy in those numbers that actually doesn't exist. and so i'm not quite sure which one is actually the proportion of enslaved black washingtonians did not go up between 1840 -- sorry between 1850 and 1860. it didn't go up. at are there stay the same or went down. so, so that if i am remembering correctly, -- and not only that, the proportion number of african-americans living in washington was also going down

so actually by 1860, black washingtonians were the least proportion of the total population of washington than they had ever been, and so in other words now the numbers as you said are not necessarily that reliable, the census members themselves. the census numbers are out there. they are verifiable but how accurately they reflect the population we don't really know. but the census numbers show that the relative number of african-americans in washington decrease between 1850 and 1860, and i've i sought that the reason for that was that there were free black people leaving and going north. so basically what you have by the evil of the civil war is a proportion of population that is smaller than it has been in the past. then it goes back up to one third during the war ended stays at about one third for the rest of the 19th century. a proportion of the population, smaller than in the past, and also equally proportionately

free or a little bit more free. [inaudible] speedway have historians basically ignored this reversal of construction in washington, and then supplemented by -- talk about some of your surprises. usa rehearsal or reversal? >> rehearsal. i'm sorry. >> okay, i wasn't quite sure. there's a famous book called rehearsal for reconstruction by billy p. rose which is about the south carolina experiment which happens during the civil war,

and for a while, was really thinking about that book a lot and thinking that this was another version of the rehearsal for construction and i was tried to come up with a title for my book that could go on that. it probably wouldn't have been a good idea anyway. why haven't historians -- in defense of the result for reconstruction, that was kind of a very nice little episode, like you but you need isolate a pulled nugget of an episode where a bunch of people from the north go to this area that is occupied in coastal south carolina. they have different perspectives. some are more economically oriented and some are more missionary and don't topically oriented and it is great little petri dish to watch the stuff playoff. washington is little more diffuse it seems to me, but that doesn't really answer the question. as i kind of suggested at the beginning of the talk, think people have shied away from studying washington in part because of the question you

know, of how strange it is, how anomalous, that it is not a real city or -- but the real experiences also anomalous. it only happens because it is south carolina which is anomaly. and so it doesn't really help us exactly explain why and other anomalous and very interesting situation in washington hasn't got the same kind of attention. you know common part of two segue into the second part of your question, part of what was really fun about doing this research was how many interesting stories there were to uncover that didn't seem to have been told before, because there just had that very much research on it. you know when it comes to mind from the the civil war years was a very big debate over the enforcement of the fugitive slave laws in washington. during 1862, including after

emancipation, washington which was an april 1862 local officials continued to enforce the fugitive slave law and that meant particularly slaves fleeing from maryland could he caught up and their owners come into washington and go before fugitive slave commissioner and being brought back into slavery. which is kind of amazing because washington was under union control and was also free, ostensibly free and get people there could be re-enslaved and sent back. and one of the things that i thought was really interesting to discover was real evidence that even though local officials wanted to continue to enforce the fugitive slave law, the general public wouldn't allow it, and i write about how crowds of african-americans would surround people who were trying to recapture these fugitives and kind of gal and say you can't do this. this is unfair. how can this be happening?

and i will go to the courts for the hearings before the fugitive slave commissioner. one reason we know about this was because it was covered in the press and particularly the abolitionist pressed -- press which wanted to see the stop, one of tutsis cebit future slavery stopped, well it is declared that the fugitive slave law is no longer cannot continue to be enforced. and so meanwhile, there is a kind of a legal side of the story too where they are shifting personnel on the court, and the court continues to be inclined to enforce the law, but then the military officials don't want to see them forced. and so there is this whole kind of conflicts around enforcement of fugitive slave laws that i think it's brought, tightened number one by the fact that there were fugitive slaves in the first place that kind of force the issue and number two, by this kind of popular uprising

against enforcement of those laws. that was one of the things that really enjoyed kind of finding out and figuring out how to write about. there are so many more though. i don't want to get out of your question but i could go on about the wonderful fun anecdotes that i got to tell in this book. >> this is going to be our last question. yes, sir. >> after sorting out the different types of equality for the rest of the country, it serves as a model for the information. have you had much information about how and what was going on in washington and why it wasn't communicated to the rest of the south through this newspaper editorials by the state legislature? >> how is this information getting -- if washington is indeed a example for all about

how was the getting out of the rest of the land? >> well, let me give two examples of that. one, and the democratic press in new york city, the new york world was a major democrats newspaper and by 1869, in washington it is sort of the apex of radical reconstruction. you have for for the the first time african-american men sitting on juries. there are seven words in washington. each word has at least one african-american councilmen sitting on its city council, and the new york world is apoplectic about it and they sort of do this series of articles about the rise of domination in washington. and so they talk about it as washington as an example or for all that is bad about reconstruction and actually not coincidentally or whatever relatedly, this is the summer that the 15th amendment, the 15th amendment is passed in the winter of 1869 said during the summer is when it is up for ratification to the state. and so the 15th amendment was

the amendment that said that nobody would be prohibited, and in the state nobody could be prohibited from voting. northern states particularly democrats were supposed to ratify and the new york world was saying he wants is an example of what happens when we allow african-american men to vote? look at washington and they are saying it is a negative example, so that is one very sort of clear example of how washington have become an example and again, i will give a happier example. by the end of the century, when disenfranchisement in the south is in full swing, you have southern up again this who are trying to persuade liberals in the north that what they are doing it in this franchise and -- disenfranchising african-americans and is good and arthur should be concerned about it and those folks also cite washington.

they like to cite washington because it was actually during the republican congress that washington d.c. was disfranchised. and so they talk about washington as a model for what they are doing and kind of say look, republicans in 1974 in 1878 thought this was fine. why can't they go along with what we are doing now? but on the positive side, to end on a slightly more, what i feel is a more positive note washington also becomes for african-americans and example of a place where you know some of the best educational institutions in the country, howard university founded in 1867 i think, and the public schools in d.c. although segregated, become -- some of the public's schools become terrific including a school that later became dunbar. growing out of period that i write about washington becomes an example of educational opportunities and to some extent employment opportunity for african-americans on that is

unparalleled elsewhere. >> once again, thank you very much professor for sharing with us. [applause] i believe you'll be outside available. >> this event was hosted by the abraham and presidential library and they see him in springfield, illinois. for more information, visit al altm.org. >> i want to ask you, the comanche and the story of quanah parker and indians in texas is just such a great story generally. is one that we all grow up hearing. we see on movies, television and reread ask about it. every book as an occasion and so what was it for you to write this particular history at this particular time? >> it is a good question. about 12 years ago i read a book, wonderful book by walter prescott webb co-called the great plains.

even notice about the great plains it was really about texas mostly, and inside this book there was a chapter, or even a subchapter about the comanches and it put forth did for this premise that there was this enormous for sitting in the middle of the continent that determine how everything happened. i am a yankee. i'm going what? wait a second. i might know a pequot or the odd algonquin or wampanoag but i didn't know comanches at all. comanches or something that in john wayne movies was code for the zero or we are in trouble now. that is the comanche era. i was pretty much what it was so what happened was tom a so that is what set off my interest. then i went back and it all the normal things you would do if you are a comanche. beyond that it was about a yankee's love affair with the state of texas. when i was time beer chief i traveled all of the state. when i was a writer in texas monthly i traveled all over the state. i heard comanche stories.

i love the plains. wheelan texas love it and we'll look forward to getting assignments where you have to go to amarillo or lubbock. i know that sounds kind of strange. [laughter] that it was true. , so it was a bit of just understanding that what the plains were and what a plains indian was and to me it was all -- and i think a lot of that comes to the book, this oh wow the yankees learned some stuff about the state's idea and i think that informed a lot of the book because none of this is normal to me. it is like wow. >> coming up next on the key school in annapolis maryland, the 2011th annapolis book festival. here is the schedule. ..