already as we know, the surge in public racism in the last two years is unprecedented and things we thought were in the past manifest on a daily basis whether it's the counterracist rhetoric we got to leaders of the republican party to just kind of other stuff that's out there. all of that i think has to get processed at some point, and then, again, i'm thinking of it in some degree in comparative terms. >> [inaudible] >> well, thank you very much. thank you for coming out on this day. [applause] >> your watching booktv on c-span2, 48 hours of nonfiction authors and books every weekend. >> host: kate, who was jim thorp?

>> guest: probably the greatest multisport athlete of all time, and native american, one of our earliest greatest athletes. he's at the dawn of american organized sports, and he set a model, the gold standard for athletic achievements which still stands today. >> when did he live? >> born in 1887 in oklahoma, died in 1953. >> did he play professional sports? >> oh, gosh, yes. >> for whom? >> well, both nonprofessional and professional. he played for the new york giants who are now the san fransisco giants. he played for the canton bulldogs which is why the hall of fame is in ohio is because of jim. if you walk in the front door, the only statue you see is

thorp. >> in his time, was he as well known as a michael vick or a brett favre is today? >> oh, many, much, much more. he was a multisport athlete, football, baseball, track and field, won medals in the 1912 olympics. he could do all of that which is why he still retains this status as the greatest multisport athlete because they don't allow athletes to play sports like that anymore. in his day and beyond, one the large reasons i wrote the book is he remained large and people revered him. >> what was the significance of his native american heritage? >> oh, huge. the playing of games as a young child, i go into that in the book, kind of a cross training almost. he sort of ran free and played free on the oklahoma plains, and he learned strengths,

concentration, stamina, quickness, agility, and also this respect for physical effort to respect the competition was instilled in him by his father and the competitive games by the tribes. it was a huge influence. >> who were his parents? >> his parents were hiram thorp who was half white. his father had been a white from connecticut, and his mother was a pot wattmy indian. he was mostly pottawatmie. all of these are tribes who got removed and removed and removed from the great lakes to eventually oklahoma. >> how did he end up in pennsylvania? >> there's an indian industrial

school, probably the most famous and prom innocent of a series of indian boarding schools set up to rapidly assimilate native americans into white society. reformers started it, and they saw the american indian race as dying out, as threatened, vanishing was a popular word at the time, and it was a sort of a combination of guilt and policy. they decided the best way to say this is a dying race, which it wasn't really, was to turn them into whites. >> turn them into whites? >> turn them into whites, send them to these boarding schools. they could not go home for five years, couldn't speak their language, boys' hair was cut short, put in white uniforms, lived with white families in the summers, and it was a radical

exercise in assimilation which did incredible damage to at least two generations of native american students, and actually right now, there's this very interesting movement going on that sort of building with the interpret facilitated by the internet with facebook of the descendants of these students try to retrace the memory of their grandparents, parents, aunts, uncles, and piece together what they call this hole torn in their culture where they were forbidden to indulge or express their culture. jim we want to the most famous of the schools. >> did he have to apply for it? was he chosen? how did he get there? >> well, they were recruiting good athletes. the original superintendent felt sports were a way to show equal playing fields and they could excel like anyone else.

his father had dispaired of being able to control jim at this point. he was, he was older, he was in his late teens, he tried every other school in the area in oklahoma, and his father sent a famous letter now to the superintendent in pennsylvania saying i can't do anything with him, will you please take him? he already showed signs of athletic promise, not nearly what he would later show, but enough that he was then allowed to go to the school and was put on a train and went off in 1904. >> when did he get back to oklahoma, or did he? >> he went back and forth. he didn't go for several years, but he would go back in the summers once he had been there several years. pretty much until he goes to professional with the new york giants, he will go back periodically, but not that much as he grows into an adult man.

>> what was his reaction to the industrial school? >> well, quickly, he loved sports from the beginning. he really wanted to play football and showed he could axel in track and field very early. initially, he was put on the track and field team in 1907, but kept pestering the famous coach or soon to be famous coach there, and he pestered warner to be put on the football team. at this point he was five feet eight and 130 pounds. warner put him off and put him off, but finally, he makes that football team. he didn't shine until 1908, and sports really become his thing, and if you were an athlete at the school, very interesting paradigm we see now at all the major schools, you were a pampered person. you got a special training

table, didn't have to go to class as often as the others. warner had an athletic machine let's say which is very much a model of which we take for granted now. >> what was the significance or tell us about the westpoint football game. >> oh, yes. fast forward to 1912, jim's last season with the industrial school. >> was he well-known as a college athlete? >> yes, by this point he is. 1911 -- it's a long story, but leaves the school in 1909 to play minor league baseball in south carolina. baseball was the only organized sport then you could make a living career at. he doesn't do that well in baseball. he comes back to the school in 1911, bigger, heavier, in his 20s now. he hits the ground running and

the football seasons ever 1911-1912 and the frabbing and field season of 1912 that preseeds the olympics, he's a phenomena, in all the newspapers and headlines and so by the time that west point game is scheduled, he's the talk of the nation, and, in fact, "sports illustrated" would say had there been a highsman trophy for example in 1911 and 1912, jim would have won it both years. one scheduled game which was a highly symbolic game for many, many reasons. west point is the army, and in that class of cadets are so many future world war ii lieutenants. he's a reserved player.

the school wins the game, and it's a tough, tough game, just a phenomenal day in sports. amazing. >> what did the coach tell his team before they played? >> according to several accounts, warner -- and this can be exaggerated, but no doubt warner said to the team as part of his pep talk before the game, you are playing against the descendants of the people who fought against your fathers on the so-called indian wars in the west of the land so go out and get them, and they did. >> did politics -- did political figures grab on to jim thorp, and did he get involved in politics at all? >> later in life he did, not at this point that we're talking about, not at all, not in the 20s. by the time he's in hollywood in 1930s, playing his last sort of official game of any kind in

1928, goes to hollywood as did so many sport stars because of the movies and the wonderful climate. he goes to hollywood, and he becomes almost in spite of himself a spokesperson for indian causes because these huge groups of indian and sports stars gather in hollywood. the advent of sound and film triggers the renaissance of western serial, you know, one episode for 12 weeks. he plays in over 70 movies, double that in records. because there's this big group of actors and stoptmen and players, he's the most famous of all of them and speaks out on behalf of indian affairs. he also formed a casting company to pressure the studios to hire indians to play indians in the

western. even though it's stereotype call, it's a job, it's work. you want somebody who can really fall off a horse? you don't need an italian or mix can. as long as you looked ethnic, you were okay. he said give to job to us, and he was a spokesman for that. >> did he die a wealth man? >> oh, no, no. he made good money when we worked for the giants, when he played in the high minors in the 20s. he made very good money. >> hollywood? >> hollywood, he made a living, a fairly decent living. it was the depression. indians were not paid as much as white extras. he fought for that as well. by the end of his life, no, he's got virtually no money, a very important thing to remember looking at the whole life stepping back is that jim thorp as i said at the advent, the beginning of american sports,

he's preradio, presports agents, prehollywood newsreels, so none of these media pictures of him exist. all there is is newspaper coverage which makes him loom larger because he's a folk hero who is handed on down from father to son. he doesn't get the money someone like red grange got just ten years later, another profootball player or collegiate who turned pro. they got large sums of money for the time. he didn't hit that level for his play. >> who was mrs. thorp? >> there were three. one of his classmates whom he married. >> white woman? >> white. she claimed to be indian to get

into the school, and they measured your blood, this is a government instituted thing, but because it was a school for indians, you had to be american indian, and she fudged the records and got in, but was not indian at all. they divorced about 1924-25, and he married freda who was much younger than he. he had four children with the first wife and the first son died at the age of 3 which affected him the rest of his life. three daughters survived. second wife, he has four sons, two sons alive today. they divorced in 1939, and he marries in 1945, patsythorpe, the one he was married to when he dies. he felted he got a bum deal, not

using his image well enough, he was taken advantage of, so he talked like a lion to get a better deal. she spent a lot of his money. she almost scotched the deal with warner brothers for making a movie, jim thorpe all american and hassled them so much, they almost pulled the plug on it. when he dies, he tries to find the best burrel place. >> you tell us, and is this for the town of jim thorpe, pennsylvania comes from? >> yes. there were two towns facing each other with total populations of 5,000. they were dying. they had no jobs, this is post world war ii, and they needed to

consolidate, and long story short, the little towns save themselves. she's tried oklahoma, tulsa, the body moves around, and she says to a newspaper publisher in pennsylvania, if you change your name to jim thorpe, consolidate, you can have the body. they sign a contract, a copy of it for a body, and it goes to jim thorpe. >> is it still there? >> it is still there, and the town beautifully honored jim all these years at the high school, and they do that every year. they have done well with what they promised to do, but the surviving children, the youngest son just died a few weeks ago. that leaves two sons left. whether they carry on this battle, the lawsuit that was filed last spring almost a year

ago to under native american protection act to get the remains exhumed and returned to oklahoma. >> and what is the status again of that case, and where do you see it going? >> the status is with jack dying, they got, as i understand it, a 30 day extension to -- because he was the only one who filed the suit -- to add on more surviving descendants and tribal members. that's the last i knew when i spoke to them. where i stand on it, if it was for jim to come back to oklahoma, i'd like to think there's a win-win solution that the town, jim thorpe, which has done so well by him can keep the name obviously and be the good guys in this and bring the remains back to oklahoma.

whether that happens or not, i don't know. >> were you able to talk with a lot of mr. thorpe's descendents? >> yes, all his children. >> what are they doing? >> well, there's two left now, old at this point. jack, who just died a couple of weeks ago was a chief in the second fox tribe, the one who most reclaimed his indian identity. he lived in shawnee. bill teached for years, retired now. dick worked for the government of oklahoma, he lives in oklahoma close to the texas border. grace, one of the daughters, was a passionate indian rights advocate and just everyone fattic about it all her life. gail, was also an advocate for the issues. charlotte, the third daughter, worked really, really hard for

the reinstatement of olympic trophies. they were all terrific people. >> we have been talking with kate buford, the life and sporting legend of jim thorpe. >> we'd like to hear from you. tweet us your feedback, twitter.com/booktv. >> well, with federal judge denny chin's rejection of the 2008 google book settlement, the future of a complete online library is in question. joining us now to discuss this issue is sarah weinman. if you can give us a brief overview of what the goggle book set leapt was and who were parties involved? >> guest: sure. it arose from an original lawsuit filed by the association of american publishers and the authors guild.

they objected to the fact that in their view, google was scanning primarily out of print and orphaned works, whose copyright stay us was not entirely known, and they felt this wholesale scanning was infringement and they didn't like that, so they sued. as it made its way through the courts, however, the parties all decided to create what is known as the google book settlement, and what that would entail is coming up with some means of giving copyright holders some monetary value for their work, and what they elected to do is what's known as an opt out process where if authors did not want their works to be scanned by google, they could write in and opt out, and those who did have their works scanned by google would get $60 per work. as it made its way through the courts, judge chin last heard about this approximately 14

months ago, and then he was confirmed to the second court of appeals after which nobody knew exactly what was going on with the settlement, and then when the news came in last week that he rejected it, that created a wave of surprise among many parties especially in the publishing community. >> host: what was judge's rationale? >> guest: he ultimately believed that the settlement was not fair, adequate or reasonable. he felt that the numerous objections lodged by about 6800 authors as well as 500 other parties were substantive enough to rule that the way the settlement was created contravened current copyright law and there was a better way to do it. in his view, he thought the majority of the objections could be nullified by instead of an opt out process, use an opt in process where you could say, no, i want to be part of the settlement instead of assuming

that unless you opt out, that you're automatically in. he didn't like that, and he felt that this was not a good way of doing it. the other portion that i addressed earlier related to orphaned works, and he felt the google book settlement could not adequately address this, and instead, this was a matter to be taken up by congress. >> host: so, sarah, during this entire legal process, google has been scanning books into its system. what happens to those books? >> guest: that's a very good question, and, in fact, because the settlement has been rejected, no one really knows what the next move will be. there is supposed to be a status meeting in court on april 25th at 4:30 at which time i guess the parties are going to state their claims as to why they should have a revised settlement, what's that the ag is saying, and google will have to figure out exactly what they

want. there are multiple ways of looking at it. some commentators say that this actually hurts google because, you know, this puts their scanning ability in doubt. other commentators say that, no, this is, in fact, just fine because in another separate program which is the creation of google e-books, google's already scanning works that are in the copyright with various permissions. you can go to google's e-book site online and download for a price any current e-book that's probably available for sale. you can go to various independent retailers affiliated with the google e-bookstore and do it that way. they have a partner program where publishers and authors on opted in order to make these books available for sale. there's some rationale by instituting this particular program, that this is perhaps a model for what the google book

settlement should be. the other thing is the settlement was supposed to create a google e-book's rights registry, and publishers spent between 12 and 15 million already, and now that's in imlow because how can you have a rights registry for a website that doesn't entirely exist? it remains to be seen if they relaunch the lawsuit, will other parties litigate? will google want to continue the suit? i have a feeling we'll know more when the meeting happens on april 25th. >> host: now, what was google's reaction and the american association of publisher's reactions that they use an opt in system? >> guest: both the aap and the ag were understandably disappointed that the settlement was not approved, but both parties seem to express some optimism that they could find a way into the settlement.

for example, mcmillian issued a statement on behalf of the aap and essentially said they are prepared, that is the publisher plaintiffs, to enter into a narrow settlement to take advantage of ground breaking opportunities and hope others do as well. scots, the president of the ag, he said along the lines of, you know, regardless of what the outcome of discussions are, readers want access to unavailable works. authors needs every market they can get, and there has to be a way to make a settlement happen to make these works available, and they hope they can, in fact, come to a settlement. with respect to google, they were, as i said, kind of disappointed, but they essentially said they hope to be able to continue the scanning work and make as many books available, so essentially, i think it's disappointed, but cautious optimism seems to be ruling the day.

>> host: sarah, what about google's competitors, amazon, microsoft, yahoo, ect.. what was their reaction? >> guest: to the best of my knowledge, i think the reactions were mostly lodged with in court documents. from what i understand though, they were certainly pleased that the settlement was not approved because each of those parties were certainly lodging objections with the court. amazon, for example, essentially said that if you give google this unfair advantage, how is this good for copyright, and that was actually another big issue of judge chin which is that if -- it's a good idea to have a digital library to have these works scanned, but should google be the arbiter and decision maker, the entity to decide how it scan, what is scanned, which books are made available, and i think in

judge's opinion, he felt very uncomfortable that one entity and corporation could have that much power and it's an unfair power every any other corporate or public entity. >> host: recently in the new "new york times" wrote that the decision is a victory for the public good, but insisted "we should not abandon google's dream of making all the books in the world available to everyone. instead, build a digital public library to provide digital copies free of charge to readers." is there any viability to that? >> guest: it sounds like a wonderful idea. yeah, the only entity that stepped up is google, and unfortunately, it's especially with the current economic state of play, the priority for a digital public library that wasn't already in in progress i suspect is not the highest of

priorities. already, look at the money just spent on the rights registry alone which may have to be boppedded in the worst case se their your or taken up in the best case scenario, but who by? google was the tremendous market cap that they have were really one of the only corporations or only entities, public or private, that had the clout and the muscle to be able to make this happen, so i think ultimately that was why a settlement was a good idea for the aap and the ag because they recognized there is value in the work that google did, and they wanted to at least get something off the ground and that could be built on and built on. will the library system be able to come together for a nonprofit entity when they face such massive cut backs at the state and federal level? i'm not entirely certain so even those there's cautious optimism about reviving the settlement, there's also understandable

skepticism this can happen so some people look at it as a win-win. i'm looking at it as more of a neutral, potentially great loss, i suppose, if something doesn't move forward. >> host: does judge or will the judge continue to have a role in this issue? >> guest: from what i understand, he will not especially now that he has moved on to the second circuit court of appeals. this is one of the last outstanding cases on his docket. the 14 months it took seemed at least in publishing circles a little long, but in light of the complexities of the issues raised, it makes sense in hindsight so then the issue becomes who takes this up? will it be litigated from scratch? will it be heard again? do other court cases factor into what kind of potential outcome is reached at a later date? will this drag on for years? we