and they're going to take care of me in my old age. [laughter] >> okay. so i think we're out of time. i want to thank everyone again, hannah, farah and everyone here in the audience for coming today. thank you. >> thank you so much. >> thank you. [applause] >> welcome to c-span2's booktv. every weekend we bring you 48 hours of books on history, biographies and public affairs by nonfiction authors. ..

>> i used to be a journalist for 30 years and then high got right with myself and my family and their work for animals. i want to introduce wayne pacelle in the briefest possible way. when i met him in 20 years ago slow the ideas he had were on the edge of our society and he has led those ideas into the mainstream. there was a time when there were people who comfortably hold the middle ground in american society and wayne move them off of the middle ground. those of us in this room who know wayne now represent the

middle of america and animals count now more than they ever have in our hearts and minds and public policy and thus they this sincerely. wayne doesn't pay me the enough to say this. he is the guy more than anybody on the plan has led us to that view. wayne pacelle, we are starting tonight. [applause] >> there are some seats up here. i will speak for does three four hours a you really do want to be seated if you can. a few brave souls come on up. welcome, all of you. thank you very much for that generous introduction and thanks to each one of you for being here for the launch. i have thought about writing a book for an awfully long time

and i was waiting for a moment when i wasn't that busy and that moment didn't come sort of figured i would just shoehorn it into my life. in the era of instant communication these things have a long gestation period. this has been coming for a while. had just want to say a few things about the book and a few things about the cause of animal protection. i had a passion for animals ever since i was a little kid and i'm sure many of you had the same passion. my three siblings are fabulous human being the. my parents are fabulous. but they were not that attuned to this issue just like most americans are not attuned to this issue and they did nothing hostile to animals and always had kind instincts but there

were not activists in the sense of being involved in animal rescue or other forms of animal advocacy. for me this issue just burned in my heart from the youngest age. i had all the encyclopedias dog geared to all the animals and trees. everything memorized about polar bears and all sorts of books from national geographic but i didn't even know that there were groups organized to fight for animals. it is a constant reminder to me that there are so many people who do care but who are not actively involved in the cause of animal protection. and some of the choices we made as a family. some are chronicled in the book. a group with dogs and i'm sure many of you did. we didn't have any cats growing up. it was later in life the acquired some cats but i think

about the dogs that we acquired and one in particular, randy. a beautiful west silent carrier. we love it randy so much and one of our other dogs named brandy and we were all thoroughly confused. then my aunts and uncles named dogs candy and mandy so it was very confusing. but my uncle actually fought the west bound terriers were fantastic. he got randy from a pet store and deliver him to us and we were so thrilled because she came from kansas. we thought how exotic this is that she came from kansas and it was only later as i got older that i learned at the time in the 1980s for 1970s pleaded amid 1970s that kansas was the number one puppy mills state in america and most of the dogs on the puppy mills are small breeds,

swallows and others. what was unbelievable about it is there was a city animal shelter and that you could see from my front doorstep. go across this little pond, there is a small college right across the street in newhaven and you could see this animal shelter so we got a dog from kansas, 1200 miles away when one of my new best friends who was just waiting to be adopted less than a quarter mile away and for so many of us it is about choices and awareness. are just was not aware of what the issues were with dog breeding and certainly not puppy mills and a wasn't aware there were animals use and eyes that shelters every day of the year because we were not aware enough as individuals in society to

make the right choices and to not only acquire an animal which is a joyous thing but to save a life which is an even more joyous thing. it reminds me that none of us can get too smug about these issues. for those of us who are involved to get frustrated that the pace of change is not faster, we have got to remember there are people out there who don't know the full range of options and by writing this book, i'm trying to spread some awareness and push people toward better choices. i think of how easy it is to be an animal activist in this day and age. there is a guy i talked about in the last chapter of the book called the humane economy and for me is this is another great symbol and a great person who has a lot to teach each one of us. his name is chuck anderson. and chuck was swimming in the

gulf of mexico off the coast of alabama and was attacked by a bull shark and the first attack resulted in four of his fingers being severed. the shark came back again and tried to bite him and he was able to ward off the shark and the sharks made a third attempt and this time hit him most severely and his other limb and cut off his arm below the elbow. you would think anybody who went through an experience like that whose life was changed in whatever way it was changed for him as a consequence of an animal attack you would think here's a guy you would understand if he had analysts toward an individual animal or even an species and would not have very favorable feelings but chuck came here a couple years ago and went to capitol hill and he lobbied along with eight

other victims of shark attacks for legislation to stop the practice of shark finning ready animals have their dorsal fins severed and the rest of the carcass thrown into the ocean in order to make shark fin soup. killing an animal for a bowl of soup to me is the height of gratuitous killing. part of the message for me is if chuck anderson can exhibit this level of altruism, this level of other centered thinking, how easy is it for us to be active and involved and engaged in issues where we have no conflict with animals, animals have done nothing to harm us and frankly they have done things to make our lives more rich, more wonderful in every single way. when we think about animals and

we think about humans i don't think of an equivalency. we are incredible and unique species. we have this incredible intelligence and creativity and we need to use that to think about the most vulnerable in society. if someone says an animal is not as intelligent as a person i say that is no reason not to care for the animal even though the animals are intelligent in their own way. this is a reason baltimore to be concerned about other creatures. our talk about animals, i talked more about human responsibility than i do about animal rights. part of the thesis in this book is we have always had a connection to animals. we have always felt a kinship with other creatures. before anyone gave me instructions on how to treat an animal ainu are should be good

to these other creatures. they were different, they had beautiful brown eyes, had beautiful fur and they were athletic. their differences didn't make me think i want to cause them harm. their differences alter their stature in my mind. more and more we really see that we are connected to animals not just because of some personal unusual characteristic of those of us who are very passionate but all of us have some connection to animals. wilson calls it bioophelia saying we're lovers of a life. we are drawn to other animals like a moth is drawn to a flame. meghan talks about the final chemical explanation for this bond. the by chemical explanation she says is tour hormone called

odyssey to assess--boxy towson which is thought to be a social bonding trust. when a mother bears a child the level spike and that is the reason the mother can stare at the child more than 10 hours a day. this is an incredible connection and some of it appears to be biochemical. more research shows that we interact with animals, oxytocin levels spike with finesse and also within animals and is a level of mutualism that occurs. i'm not surprised when we hear about iraq war veterans and afghanistan war veterans come back with post-traumatic stress disorder and they get a therapy dog or just get a companion and get off of their medication. they're able to leave their home and go grocery shopping and get their health back, in a better state. i think animals have an incredible rehabilitative quality. i think this bond give the head

start in terms of doing the right thing for animals. that can be trumped by culture and economics. if you are selfish, if you want to exploit animals because you have the opportunity to do so historically there have been laws to constrain that. will we are trying to do is set standards for society to see that animals are properly cared for. i look at a western tradition, i look at the instinct of bond and also look at the our declaration of independence, our constitution, founding documents of our country, founding document of western democracy and icy and views in these documents talk of the rights of the individual and icy talk of justice, fairness and it was those principles that led us

human problems like slavery and women's suffrage, denial of women's suffrage, we have dealt with these forms of injustice over time because the precepts of a civil society demand that. and one of the great important causes is about animals. we can't just suspend these principles of fairness and justice when it comes to these other creatures who are innocent and vulnerable and helpless. they need us all the more. when we think about what is going on, most social movements are born out of crisis and the humane movement was born in the middle of the nineteenth century because of crisis. there were newly formed cities in america and people were killing animals to supply fur and feathers for the people in the cities and the span of three decades we nearly wiped out the bison in america once we develop

the transcontinental railroad and repeating firearm and markets developed for their hides and tongues. millions of animals, basin on the great plains, only 500 left by the 1870s. incredible destruction. billions of passenger pigeons, they were entirely exterminated as a consequence of an attitude of domination and new technology. think about that in the 1860'ss 1870s. we are in the twenty-first century and technology is even more lopsided in our favor. so we have all of this power over other creatures. how are we going to use this power? ultimately this cause of protecting animals is about the misuse of power. it is about people using their power now in a restrained and limited way but taking advantage of animals because we can do it.

there are some folks who think just dogs and cats and that is the birthright of the organization but there's so much more to the work of the humane society then only dogs and cats. it is about wildlife and farm animals and horses and animal abuse and testing and research and experimentation. all of these animals matter. our mission at the humane society is celebrating animals and confronting quote she. we want to celebrate the place of animals in our culture and society. we want to confront wherever and whenever we see it. i am convinced things are moving in our direction. there are folks who put roadblocks up all the time. critics of animal protection have a static view of history. they want things to say the way they are because it is most profitable and comfortable and they say if you change factory

farming we won't be able to have cheap food or if we can't use animals for testing we won't find ways to test the safety of products. that is such a static view of history. look at housing in my own professional lifetime. the internet was developed, e mail and telecommunications, transportation looks so different. so many things look so different and it is also a question of looking differently at human impact on other creatures. we have had some defining moments in our culture about animals. some breakout moments. the michael vick case and the cruelty of dogfighting and the awareness that brought and how we turned that terrible case of cruelty into an opportunity to change laws around the country, to start community-based

programs to reach young kids in urban communities who were drawn into this world of dogfighting and to prevent that from happening so we don't have to have enforcement and actions on the back end. one of our brave undercover investigators went into a foreign house and got a job and watched what was going on with these animals with a hidden camera and documented the abuse of these cows who were suffering terribly and grievously and dragged with chains into foreign houses and pushed with bulldozers and had hoses put into their mouths to water board the annals to cause them such distress that there would get off of the ground and go to these areas. also the katrina case, and the incredible moments in our country when people really began to understand the human/animal bond. so many people wouldn't leave their area of their home because

the government responders wouldn't take them with their animals. so many people so that won't abandoned my best friend during his or her time of greatest need. to read you an excerpt from the chapter on pets, i spent as so many of my colleagues did, a few weeks in new orleans in the wake of hurricane katrina. there was an incredible effort with many organizations and so many individuals who came to help. it was an incredible example of the charitable nature and goodness of the american people. just a couple of paragraphs from this chapter v, for the love of pets. in a lifetime of being around animals i had seen some strange and interesting feigns but here was something completely different. i was standing on the front

gallery of a continental airlines 727 that was soon to depart baton rouge airport survey and a plane packed with passengers, all of them dogs. it was like something from a far side cartoon complete with chipper flight attendants serving dog biscuits and water. given desperate circumstances everyone was quiet and well behaved and the sound of the captain's voice said years up and heads tilted. not one of the 140 dogs on board was barking or winding, not even the ones stuck in the middle seats. there was something comical in the scene but also deeply touching. seeing all these frightened faces wondering what was happening to them yet however afraid they felt every one of them was lucky to be leaving new orleans in the days after hurricane katrina. they have already been through a lot. they had been abandoned when the city was evacuated, left to fend for themselves as the waters rose, and they found themselves

all alone in an empty house but that finally heard a friendly voice. wasn't their owners but hundreds of rescuers who had come to help. now they were bound for california where others would take them until if everything worked out their owners would find them and take them back home. what mattered most was to get them to safety and worry about the reunion later. i was down there in new orleans for some time and did a lot of interviews for the press talking about the pet rescue and i expected the question to be asked, this was a terrible calamity. no one was there. more than a thousand people died. hundreds of thousands were displaced. it had to be a couple hundred interviews that i did. i was expecting a question what are you concerned about animals when there were so many people who were in distress? and for all -- they knew the circumstances of the people and

animals were intertwined. not one person asked that question. they saw suffering whether it was human or animal and wanted to respond to it. it was such a teaching moment for our american culture that pain is pain and suffering is suffering. when we are kind to animals, it thrills our society. kindness fosters more of it. same is true on cruelty. there is no accident we see when there's cruelty to animals, we see other forms of cruelty. it is the dodd one day, child the next.

we have a little from the preface and a point we do expand on, we live in a civil society where there's an incredible social safety net. in the pluralism of our concerns, they care passionately because a family member has been afflicted curing disease. and the pour and dispossessed and people have a passion for animals and when we follow passion and are no longer bystanders, we have the bulwark established in a civil society. when i see democracy and north africa and the middle east and

we hope seeing the stirring of the same principles of fairness and individual rights, i see the seeds being planted for concern about everyone including the animals. i close with just a couple paragraphs from the preface, my thoughts about the broader issue. as harsh as nature is, pulte comes only from human hands. fully capable of making things right. best instincts will tend in that direction. fellow feeling, the entire arc of human experience. from our first barefoot steps on the planet through arab domestication of animals and into the modern age. with all humanity apart, animals

remain in companions in creation. bound up in a story of life on earth. and a betrayal of that bond. we keep faith with the bond. the animal welfare cause is to repair the bond. for our sake and our own. and we sever it once and for all. from the decent, we care for creatures, entirely at our mercy. too often a viewing them as if they were articles of commerce and raw material of science, agriculture and wildlife management. here is another pursuit.

some things we do only because we can, forgetting to ask whether we should. we are happy to have you here tonight. i am happy that you will dig into the book and read it and more than just reading it, i hope it causes you to act. we have a lot of crises for animals in this world and a lot of people like you who care. the winds of history are blowing in our direction. we keep paddling to make it -- we take a couple questions. [applause] questions? it is okay to take questions.

>> your childhood story in terms of childhood -- >> i touched on it briefly. i mention very briefly, i didn't have one moment of crisis of conscience or someone i saw that jolted me, i really feel i had this in me. it is not a genetic inclination to be sensitive to animals and empathetic. to make sure that is the case, i heard a lot of stories in one moment people had when they saw in a very poignant moment the suffering of the animal. i have certainly seen in all my years whether it was being with

the buffalo and yellowstone i have seen the worst of humanity and want to focus on that because that is the pathway for the future. questions? >> so often we hear that science doesn't prove that animals feel. i know where you are coming from as far as the human bond with animals. it is inevitable that we give animals, the second chapter is

devoted to animal intelligence. the scientists doing -- studying the brain and the skull. they basically posited a theory that basically reinforce their own prejudices saying there are certain groups with smaller skulls and smaller brain that justify their view of the superiority of sayre raises. you can have a science that is well done and rigorous, an existing prejudice. we saw this scene animals for some time. we were deniers of what was common sense in front of us. this view of the behavior is in theory of animals where animals were mindlessly pursuing food

and mating opportunities and almost devoid of emotional characteristics and qualities. this was the reigning doctrine for quite some time in the last 20 years especially the last 254 faherty years this whole notion has been put to rest and we recognize in the scientific world what common sense tells us, travis sense of past and future. they experience a range of emotion. this is what matters. it is not exactly the same quotient that we have. that doesn't mean you should deny it. that part of the book was

challenging but really fun to write and stories about animals as moral agents as well and dolphins saving people threatened by sharks and incredible acts of heroism of animals, a lot of animals had moral capacities and acted on them. in the back, any questions or thoughts? >> just a quick question. you touched on this very briefly in your early remarks. what is the message you want people across the united states to take away as they have a chance? >> one of the central messages that i want to convey is we have reached an agreement on the basic precepts that animals can suffer and they can feel and animal cruelty is wrong.

if we accept those basic principles that a very important question is how we logically apply this standard in a society in which animal abuse is everywhere. we are eating animals, we are wearing animals, animal testing occurs to help market products that we purchase in our stores that we visit on a regular basis. there are moral problems anywhere where comes to human treatment of animals. that also means there are more opportunities. we have these moral opportunities every day in our life to make the right choices. the past necessities are today minor conveniences. there are things we had to do way back when because that was part of it for our survival but now with our state of human

progress we have alternatives. why would you wear a fur coat when you can have a beautiful synthetic fur coat, and consistent moral thinking, you got to square that with conduct. the largest use of animals in society is the use of animals for food. tremendous in terms of large, not in terms of good transformation and agriculture. animals used to feel some light on their act, and they slaughter

process. misery where animals are confined in cages and crates barely larger than their bodies. if we value the emotional characteristics and qualities of animals. with goodness and this is the, and farming. with wings and legs, and in the breeding -- she needed a transformation. just to get back to your question that all of us think through the logical consequence. it doesn't just mean the animals we know. it doesn't just mean random acts of cruelty in the community like the horrendous burning of a dog or clubbing of a cat.

it is institutionalized and normalized settings where animal abuse is legal and permissible and figuring out, caring about the care of animals. one or two more questions? >> the cruelty that you see -- >> that is the key for us. look around you here. we care deeply about animals. eleven million supporters, one of 28 americans. talking to a couple of years here that was it. it sounded far-fetched and

farcical. we talk about the are the mainstream. we are exhibiting sensibilities with the mainstream of american culture and political thought. the political and cultural movement to affect the changes that are long overdue that are stopping -- adopt animals and sheltered groups, and with full of dogs from puppy mills and looking at eating choices and being conscious consumers whether that leads you to be a vegetarian or not, we can all do something to ease our impact on the farm animals by not buying products from factory farms. we have choices that abound. use your powers and use your voice as a citizen to change the

equation. i started an animal protection group as a college student at yale and we were on the margins at that point. in the last 25 years things have changed dramatically. that does not mean things will be easy. we had an incredible struggle in our society. we fought a war over slavery where 600,000 people died directly in the war. there are big social conflicts that occur that are right. they're entirely reasonable. there was a debate about it historically tend we were taking on an enormously challenging problem. the problem of human cruelty to animals. it is an enormous challenge and there are enormous opportunities. how are we doing on time? couple more questions?

>> some questions about how many -- a limited number. >> we have plenty of books and i will sign until i drop. i will stay with all of you tonight. i will limit the word no.. this took a lot. >> did you talk to your book about environmental issues which pose a serious threat to animal species around the world today? >> do i talk about environmental issues? i certainly do. wild animals need a healthy environment if they're going to survive. it is not trapping or direct killing that is the number one threat to wild animals. it is the destruction of habitat, the maintenance of ecosystems. we have a large wildlife

department. a big international program and we are deeply concerned. i was disturbed by the ceo of godaddy.com trying to claim he went to zimbabwe as a humanitarian enterprise to kill an elephant because the elephant was trembling some crops. i have heard this excuse so much. i don't know if you heard about it. he took a video of him with a bunch of backup shooters shooting a bull elephant and claimed it was done for the people. in the book i actually go through the case of a guy named ken behring and who was a trophy hunter from northern california, a wealthy guy who owned a sports team and was traveling all over the world to shoot run species and he actually shot two endangered bighorn sheep in

kazakhstan and he couldn't get the trophy's imported to the united states and this was not the current leadership of the smithsonian but prior leaders worked to give him import permits through scientific exemption. after he gave $20 million to the smithsonian and this was exposed and in the process of the exposure, what we learned is that he shot with a couple of his cohorts three bull elephants in mozambique with the same rationale as the go-the guy that these were problem elephants that he was doing humanitarian service. it turned out wildlife officials said these were not problem elephants. the killing of the elephants was illegal and they kicked him out of the country but i heard these excusemaking and rationalizations time and time again. it construct those arguments.

in the back? >> i hear some instant gurgling over here. the toddler who had an affinity for animals which is astounding. my influence, what roles we play for young children getting them to be -- >> we have a head start when it comes to help animals because we have this bond. we have the right inclination to send us in a good direction. the problem is economics and other interests may trump those concerns. we are in a struggle for ideas. we need to inculcate in the youngest generation, kindness toward animals. when we are good to animals it spills over in society. when we are bad to animals, factory farming is not an animal

welfare problem but massive manure, waste, future find the air. antibody to resist as bacteria, at so overcrowded that disease could spread and we pump the animals full out to prevent disease, they're not designed for that process. the number of farmers declined dramatically because these factory farms with producers. when we are good to animals that are downstream to good effect, to make that argument plane to our kids. everything is connected when we look at these principles. >> what are the biggest issues in washington d.c.? volunteering at a local shelter?

>> in an urban setting like washington d.c. what can we do to help? we don't have superabundant wildlife populations, we have seen deer and other animals protecting urban wildlife is important. we have a wildlife service's program to resolve conflict and casually, killing these animals as waves to solve these problems. in a community like this we have seen in most urban communities the problem of dogfighting. it is a significant issue that doesn't touch many of us here directly. reaching young kids and having them get past for the right reasons and not for the reason of having a fighting machine or a macho display a lot of the shelters in urban communities have an inordinately large number of pit bulls because they

are relinquished or discarded. that is an important issue for us but we live in a global economy and we should be involved locally but we need to think about these macro issues. supporting groups is important because they allow the larger institutions, our own personal market choices weathered his food or products that are not tested on animals. those are important decisions we make every single day when voting for or against cruelty. lots of great local organizations, washington animal rescue league of, their rescue organizations, really important to support us as well. >> i went to see the fireworks every fourth of july. last time i went with a few

years ago because when the first fireworks started by was along the potomac. a whole section were completely frantic and took off. and i tried to think what are we doing? i couldn't enjoy it after that. i don't know what the final answer was. it was around the first of the year. >> question is the questionnaire made an observation about fireworks and july 4th and some of these ancillary consequences of the celebration. the anniversary of our founding as a republic is the great cause for celebration and it is one that i celebrate. but i can't help but feel deeply concerned about the animals when these fireworks are going off. the animals are frightened.

one of my -- this is a terrible thing. my aunt and uncle who were great animal lovers, a german shepherd, when i was a kid we tethered our dog, why did we do that? how did we do that? my aunt and uncle had them untethered and she got a frantic she jumped over and hung herself because of the fireworks display and it always stuck in my mind and i see so many animals who are scared and frightened by these fireworks and it really makes me shut the blinds and put on buffer's so the animals can hear what is going on. it is a concern. these are close reads of the situation and we want to celebrate a wonderful holidays like july 4th but if we are conscious about these things it minimizes that sort of thing. there have been a number -- in arkansas and south dakota cases where birds fell from the sky.

we don't have great explanations for why it happened. some of the birds died because the federal government was poisoning them. there is a federal program called wildlife services if you can believe that. used to be called animal damage control but in the world of euphemisms they changed it to wildlife services. this federal program as a subsidy for ranchers and others, they kill a million animal year with our tax dollars and county funds and cooperative funds. a real problem. >> [inaudible] >> one minute of fireworks snow that the animals sort of get it. >> we alert people to this problem every year. we issue press statements and

releases to pet owners. it is one that we are conscious of and we will keep thinking about. >> we're talking about a national holiday and washington d.c. and this might be a delicate question but who are our political allies on this issue. >> the question is who are the political allies of animal protection. we just had our humane congressional board. we recognize members of congress, the house and senate for leadership on animal issues and consistent protection of animal issues. legislative fund which is the political arm issued a scorecard for lawmakers that you can go to www. hasslas.org and you can see every lawmaker's score on issues

of the day. jim moron is over the line. and in california republican lawmaker, in -- we give 144. one member refuse the award. their generous with these awards. introduced a bill, and don young who was a big trapper and license trapper, did something about marine mammal stranding. we are against trapping, and anyway, we have a great list of

supporters on the agent sell-off websites. >> i saw the great video when they gave the puppy -- he just loved that little puppy. >> a little ceremony that the questioner mentioned. we have a fabulous video department at the command society. we have an apps on your eyephone. it did a video last week, a little puppy was rescued, congressman michael gramm was a freshman lawmaker from staten island. he wanted to get a dog who could be an office dog. a can't tell you how happy the staff were. it was a fun thing to do to see

excitement of the rest of the staff. animals give us so much joy. they give us so much and we should give back to them. we need to raise our voices for them to stop what is going done. >> thank you for working on legislation and bringing farm animals into the picture. let healthy people be aware. talking about children and experiences, is there a way to tap into public education and educate the next generation? is very way to make it part of the curriculum? >> the question on the issue of humane education, reaching kids at the age when they are forming their values and beliefs.

we have a program called humane society you if. constellations of organizations. we have a political arm. we have a newsletter that goes to 40,000 classrooms. the curriculum in many schools are jam packed and difficult to add something to it. we do speak to classes and have a lot of supporters speak to classes and something we need to do more of to reach kids. i have been working to speak in a lot of urban settings to kids at risk for dogfighting and those sorts of questions. i can't agree with you enough that it is important to reach them but kids learn from a lot of other places. so many portals of information and we really work hard to provide information to a lot of

settings and very active in social media, facebook and other platforms to communicate our message because the world is ever changing in terms of communication. one more question and then we are going to wrap it up. seeing none we are going to wrap it up. thank you very much. [applause] >> i will sign books up here. [applause] >> sunday from the los angeles times festival of books, in depth with your questions for chapman university professor and co-founder of reason magazine p.m. can. his book includes private rights and public delusions. the promise of liberty and the man without a hobby. he will take your phone calls and e-mails at in eastern on c-span2 booktv. >> cynthia stewart was a mother in ohio, small town, mother of a

charles, lived with her partner in a little farmhouse outside of talent. cynthia was a passionate photographer who became a passionate photographer after her daughter had been born. she decided to document her daughter's life in great detail. she relished doing that and took pictures all the time. by the time nor was 8 she had taken a 35,000 photographs. these are not digital. these are rolls of film developed at discount drug mart processing labs. all of those pictures were numbered and filed and archived in private boxes in her dining room and she wanted to put together a book. she has a lot to choose from. on july 6th, 1999, she scooped up 11 rolls of developed film and took them to the discount drug mart to have been developed and a few days later ten of those came back about one did

not. cynthia assume that role had been lost in the lab and she began trying to track it down. it upset her to lose the photograph. she knew those photographs had pictures of her daughter in the bathtub and it done down on her to worry about that because she had taken pictures of laura naked and other pictures ever since she was born and most of those were at the discount lab. that is at the station and she was relieved. there were serious questions only to come down the station. she was willing to go because there were nothing to hide. she invited police into your house, she was a photographer. we want to come to the station.

before she went to the station. the next day, met with a lawyer, a specialist in family law. she took it in the bathtub. what was likely to happen in this case, when police were concerned about this, went to the prosecutor, if the prosecutor was concerned passed along to children's services and they will send a social worker to your house, find out what the intent of the photograph was. she had cynthia right up an affidavit. it was submitted to the police.

in that six weeks police returned to the front of the house and a search warrant to see the photographs. and they will not ask further questions. everyone assumed this incident was over. on september 28th, sheriff's deputies came to the board. and took her to the county jail and david had to bail her out with the $20 lien on the house. and two felony charges. the first felony charge, and ohio law says you cannot take a photograph of a naked child. that would make most of us

felons, right? fortunately the law had been constrained by the ohio supreme court and the u.s. supreme court. a. exhibition or graphic focus on the genitals. nudity alone was no longer the standard by which the photographs -- if focus on the genitals. prohibiting the photograph of a child in sexual performance. it was taken after she and nora had been to a local art gallery. and it was rising mysteriously and nora asked if they can replicate that home. they would fill the bathtub with bubble bath. nora had risen mysteriously from the water.

cynthia had taken photographs but once the water ran out cynthia continued taking photographs and took a series of four in which she was rinsing off with a shower sprayer. she took -- she rinsed off her head, her neck and in the third photograph, it was obscured by the water. the showers prayer was not touching her. the last photograph was the same thing. those last two photographs that the prosecutor alleged was a child in a sexual act performing a sexual act. that was the second felony charge. when this hit the newspapers and it did big-time not only in that little town but beyond in the region in the cleveland late night news with these allegations. you can imagine the