successful movement that brought benefits for a greater amount of people semi speaking with the professor here at the virginia festival of the book. what is your day job? >> i am a law professor and history professor at the university of virginia, as a job that i enjoy very much. >> i teach constitutional law, a constitutional history also course on education law and policy. >> host: how long have you been doing that? >> at the university of virginia, five years before that at washington university and save louis ii years. >> host: what is your education? your editor of the yale law journal? >> yes.

i was an editor of the journal so i attended yale law school. i also got a ph.d. in history from duke university and prior to that the undergraduate degree. >> host: what did your parents do? >> i grew up in a small town in south carolina, agreed would. my parents, like at all matthew's parents, my father was once a sharecropper. he worked in a factory and might appear at -- parents attended segregated schools. my mom and actually when i was in moscow went to college it is something they do now. >>

. . >> host: peter, thank you so much for joining me today. your book, "the fear," is the

third book in a trilogy of books regarding the zimbabwe. so i'm going to just ask the most basic question. so what is "the fear," would you like the viewer to know about "the fear"? >> guest: it is the third in a trilogy and in a sense in an accidental book. i didn't visit to zimbabwe intending to write this book. it's based on reporting in 2008 and in 2009. and when i went there initially, there was elections in 2008 and the elections spun out of robert mugabe's control, and it looked like it had actually lost them and was about to have to stand down and so i was sent to do a story about the end of this 30 year rule and it turned into something completely different. it turned into mugabe declared war and launched this campaign of torture on an industrial

scale and all foreign journalists and many observers were thrown out. a lot of the ngos were suspended or closed for that period and a lot of the opposition leadership fled the country. their lives were endangered. but i stayed for that period, and the fear is the kind of summation of what happened in those three dark days. >> host: and you are a zimbabwean, so in some ways a kind of memoir of going back home also one of your chapters we can never go home again. tell us a little bit about that, growing up in zimbabwe. clearly he wore a white zimbabwean and there's been a lot of talk about race relations in zimbabwe and i think many people in the united states see a very polarized situation where the black zimbabweans, the majority population, continue to live in poverty and we are not sure whose fault that is.

>> guest: zimbabwe is a very confusing country to look at through the filter of the american experience, through the felker in particular the african-american experience and he understands very well how to spin the story to the maximum advantage. what you have is the basic narrative of rhodesia and asking when i grew up in that country was it still rhodesia, the white for will minority rule institutional racism. my own particular family were white liberals, we live in the rural area and my mother was a communal doctor and i went to multiracial church schools. what happened is there was a guerrilla war for the liberation and 1980 mugabe wins the election and becomes the first black prime minister of the new nation of zimbabwe. now, at its very height the white community in zimbabwe never exceeded 300,000.

it was about a quarter of a million. >> host: so a real minority. >> guest: about 1% of the population, maybe five to 1% of the population. what happened at that point, a lot of whites left during the war. it went on for a long time. and in 1980 when robert mugabe came to power no one expected him, none of the foreign observers in the colonial power didn't expect. he was seen as the most militant, he was seen as a communist but there was worry is if he came to power he would be the one that it would have the racial vendetta and in fact when he came to power none of these things came to pass. he was remarkably moderate in those early days. he didn't nationalize industries. he reached out to the white community and in invited them and appealed to stay, what ever happened in the past has happened. we are now embarking on this new nation of zimbabwe where whether

you or asian or white, whatever, it all comes together. and in a sense we were the precursor of south africa. we saw ourselves as the rainbow nation at that point. >> host: so what happened? clearly as we see south africa did emerge and they had -- although he was jailed for over 20 years, he came to power, and there was at least a semblance of harmony. there's still problems in south africa but the armed wing down most people believe the right path where zimbabwe is tumbling out of control. what happened, was the difference? >> guest: without going into too much detail about the politics in south africa of the one thing you've already put your finger on which is that he's still down after five years and south africa is already on its feared president, we never got past our first and what happened is that mugabe, now 87,

has been in power 80 years and what actually happened is he installed himself and became more and more dictatorial and authoritarian and then dictatorial and he quickly established a one-party state with a total grip on power. now it's interesting because even in its early days, land was always a big issue obviously and we read a lot about the land and equity in zimbabwe and so far we've read about zimbabwe in the american clip, the story that has excited the media to hear more than any other story are the land invasions. so you have a situation again and which it's quite easy to spin the objects which are a very small group of white people own a disproportionate amount of land and the speech that was made he reached in particular to

the white commercial farmers he ran the is very efficient highly productive industries and said to them listen i'm not going to kick you off the land if you want to contribute, what i want you to do is go back and grow food and feed not only zimbabwe but the region and the debt. and that carried on for nearly 30 years until 2000 when suddenly he moved against the farm. when he moved against the farm he dressed up in the rhetoric of addressing historical il's. >> host: to what extent had that been done? because to talk about south africa is one thing but then you look at the fact that certainly mugabe was in the position to be one of the only postcolonial leaders in southern africa for about ten years who didn't receive the support i think that most zimbabweans believe he

would receive for the sort of economic programs. so to what extent is the zimbabwe story also a story of the failure of the international community to support and the sort of new efforts to put not only the vote but the wealth in the hands of the majority. >> guest: there are two issues. the first is land reform given that agriculture is the economic engine that primarily drives, they don't of oil or anything and the curious thing is for the longest time. when i was growing up i was told land was second only to racial discrimination as a reason for the war, the fact that black people couldn't vote, land was a close second, primarily in rural country, but it's my belief, my theory that what happened is one of mugabe's sar achievements in

those early years as education that what happens is even under the rhodesian days the logistics of education were quite good, the infrastructure was there but mugabe spent on education and quickly became the most illiterate nation, the most educated by far was a huge middle class and what tends to happen when you educate people and we see this all over the third world if you go to the university and get a degree you don't want to go, you want to go to an office and a different kind of job, so the pressure to go back to the land wasn't that big so it wasn't on the front burner. there were two or three efforts and was considerable foreign money to back up land reform they never actually happened until in 2000 when the land invasion happened.

and really the main thing about the land invasion, and you don't read this in the media very often because again, what they love is the sort of racial by neary of these things. it's very easy to explain and see on the television set. but mugabe's real target wasn't so much the 10,000 or so white farmers, it was the million or so black farmworkers who were the members of the farm workers union which supported the opposition and was a big million note that he needed to break up the commercial farmer to farming structure which he did. >> i think that you read the important point that there are these stories of change also we've had the leader in zimbabwe for 30 years there's certainly been changes within the society. your book i think does an

amazing job and presenting to us the view from the ground after the 2008 election and what people were experiencing and i was quite stroke not only by the level of fear people had also the brutality people had experienced and i wonder if you want to talk a little bit about some of the people you met and spoke with and the treatment they received just for possibly being in the opposition party without even evidence of being the opposition party can you talk about that? >> guest: it was very extreme. i've been a foreign correspondent for decades and i've never seen anything quite this premeditated. they were not a threat to anybody, they were peaceful space activists so essentially

happened is that mugabe and his people left the opposition, but not the top people, just village level and whenever the village chairman and found as a christian country and burned down their houses, the activist houses and pulled them into the torture cases which ironically was cited in schools because the schools stopped working and allied with the foreign invasion there was terrible hyperinflation. by 2008 they were harboring every 24 hours and so the teachers and the nurse is essentially stopped working. the activists rolled into the schools and they were tortured on an industrial scale. thousands and thousands of people were run through the torture cases where they were thrashed within an inch of their

lives and they had these people i was interviewing and hospitals, the literally couldn't sit, lie down, the flesh was ripped from their bodies and they were beaten so badly they couldn't stand, terrible pain and the hospitals weren't working. and what they did is they took these people and by and large once you got to the torture people did die. people were killed but the intention was mostly to torture them very severely and then to release back to their own communities of these people would look back or they would be pushed on wheel barrows or trying to lift and what it might and eventually come back to their own communities where the act as human billboards they would be advertisements for what happens to you if you oppose the regime. and they would spread ripples of to the communities when they

would emerge. and this went on for months. >> host: who knew you discussed the journalists were pushed out but one of the things i thought was interesting in your book is you talked about the church and the church role. i remember when you were on the ground covering the story as i remember reading on the civil rights leader here in the united states that he can't be torturing people, he's a christian, as it is this belief that his faith drove him into the war, drove him into politics, he stayed as a leader because he believed he does have both the political and the spiritual obligation so this is the belief among dillinger was the church and other institutions, what role are they planning to highlight these situations and to uncover the problems in zimbabwe? >> guest: there are different

churches, zimbabwe is a catholic and he was so inculcated in catholicism that he lived in the mission statement, he was abandoned by his father when he was young and who could and was almost a substitute father to him and he cites a love-hate relationship so the catholic church was very active in the days condemning the security forces and saying the war being fought was a just war and other words was a liberation war and they try not to be political and moral terms, but very quickly what happened and we forget the early on in 1983 and he's been

in power for barely three years he sent the brigade into the southern province where there's been trouble and a sort of sporadic security issue but they said then to target's again the civilian population and in particular the officers of the different opposition party and they killed we think about $20 civilians. but it's never been -- there's never been a proper inquiry, no one has been arrested, and the catholic church condemned it. and they brought the report. i was a rookie reporter and got death threats thrown out of the country but at that point the relationship started to change and he still went to church and

things and they've been very kind to his sisters to the war but he was left less trusting of them and more recently the anglican church has actually split and there is a pro mugabe priest who's taken over the physical church although he has no concretion so the anglican church to can't get your doctor church. >> host: so you're describing systematic torture. it's not random gangs of people. it's torture by the state. and the church is basically intent to do anything about it. but infrastructure is in place where victims can go in anywhere? who is fighting for the people

of zimbabwe? who's fighting for the is opposition's? who is fighting to ensure the church and other organizations can operate? >> guest: what happened at this particular time and what tends to happen in advance of elections is the ngos and they do exist human-rights ngos as well as the social ngos providing food and care, they are put on notice and they are very valuable and right now as was sort of entering into the free election period likely to tip of the violence there is an uptick of violence and they've arrested various human rights ngo leaders, with a normally do and then recently they arrested 45 people for watching the

egyptian uprising on tv and i think mine of them have been charged with high treason and there's another that's been arrested as well and someone was arrested for putting a comment on the facebook page st go egypt or whatever and he's now been the chief and the residence art gallery director, he was arrested and accused of high treason so that has become a very oppressive, very allergic to any criticism and at times like that it is the very difficult to provide the support. the activists are very vulnerable what times like that and there isn't anywhere for them -- it's hard for them to find protection in a situation like that. >> host: one of the things

people in the united states are not aware of and i only became aware of it after moving zimbabwe is that it's actually illegal for more than i believe three people unrelated to be in the same room at the same time on less -- without permission from the state, and so that's shocking of course to most people when they hear that, and i'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about the ways in which the judicial system has been used or the legislative system has been used to prop up the power that's already in place. >> guest: of the ironies is that there was a parliament but in truth ever since he started to rely more and more because the state of emergency declared on what is known as the emergency power where you as the prime minister and the president could just basically right laws and publish them on friday and

the government and so lots of bill laws get past that way, especially security laws. the law that you're talking about is one that is basically prohibits anybody from gathering without permission. and under that regulation, mugabe is just counted the last three attempted rallies by the opposition. they don't have to give a reason, they don't have to make up some reason but if you then to gather together you've committed a crime. but also this other crime which is to bring the presence to this respect but as to just criticize them and they talk about each of or whatever you've probably breached that and it has very serious penalties. is it is very impressive in that regime but right now we are in the complex situation where

after the election i was talking about after this torture where mugabe than basically declares himself president of the second round even though he was clearly beaten in the first round the two sides, the opposition of the government pulled together into this kind of faintly of sergel heiberg government and it is a worrying trend in africa now that when the incumbent losers are declared a draw it happens in kenya and though it is coming to the climax now and then in zimbabwe it doesn't solve nothing to do that and there's no real political resolution. so, what was supposed to happen in zimbabwe after the so-called government of national unity and for all sorts of space reforms to come in ducks including the right to have political rallies and have access to the

electronic media and the effect happens we are at this sort of -- >> host: it's the enforcement mechanism, can you talk about who was in charge of making sure -- clearly my understanding is the government has retained basic control of the military and morgan's party has -- >> guest: education, health -- >> host: and the finances which of course we all know is spiraling out of control so what enforcement mechanisms has the international community put forth when you describe the police force that their only adversaries are the people in the military were there only adversaries and they were not fighting for in war. >> guest: the problem is the international community that from the very beginning, gwen back to president bush, he

handed off the conflict to south africa to the president there and said that it was his point man and south africa as the great power in the region was going to sort it out through the southern african development community. and so technically should be the ones who say you're not doing enough of these reforms but in practice this hasn't really happened so you put your finger on the problem which is that he jerry picks the reform but the really important ones like for example the zimbabwe television broadcasting corporations and retial in particular is important in the communities to absolutely complete monopoly. you can't have any independent

review station in zimbabwe so things like that, and that's not -- fijian you was established on the basis of these would be allowed so he is in breach. >> host: i have to push you on this a little bit because in your book its striking the situations people find themselves in this one story that you told of a father which his wife and his 4-year-old and i believe his 9-year-old daughter as well rn sorry his four month old and nine month old daughter said i'm going to run this way the rest of you run that we to save your lives from the forces closing in on their home. south africa is in charge of ensuring the safety of people isn't in breach. for stores like that who was it possible people are turning a blind eye to what is actually happening?

>> guest: the torture that i described have been that is what led to the establishment of the sort of hybrid government. subsequently the violence hasn't been as bad although it's now starting to get worse again and that's the worry. that case that you're referring to the kind of bravery that he showed and deliberately drawing the attention and his wife and kids and there's another guy who was standing as a local councilor and a mugabe heartland. and hundreds came at night for him and it needed pretty much the same thing and ran off and they charged him with spears and rocks and everything and eventually he was lying down

with all these people and they turned to him and said you better kill me because i know who you are now and i said why would you say that? i've seen the era of my ways and he said we would to say that? because it was true. so the sort of bravery to an insane degree. >> host: can you describe what i'm imagining if you have to ask them why, why is it so important to be part of the opposition party if you are facing this within your community if you try to do with the national structure you're going to be noticed and you may be killed why are people supposed to the mugabe government? >> guest: they are opposed

because zimbabwe has collapsed. it went from having the highest standard of living in africa to one of the lowest because one of the lowest human development in africa now. they were offered with a thought at that point was a true election come into the market was i believe the democratic. there are other countries where the institutions are weak and people aren't the educated and it's difficult. you need more than just an election to establish the democracy but zimbabwe has these things. it has the tradition, the big middle class, lawyers and doctors and accountants and its -- it had a very big library dever -- vibrant debate and people cared about this. one country in africa the democracy could work and could get a grip is zimbabwe and you can see that they are democrats in the day decided to do it in

the vein of gandhi and martin luther king and the day would be peaceable and in the face of enormous publication they pretty much stayed to that which is again extraordinary, but i haven't been rewarded by the international community because basically the only get involved when the body count goes up cooking the awful truth so because they don't find out they've been peaceable. the international community tended to ignore them and there's been intervention that's happened more in darfur and in the code to some extent and that is the irony of it. >> host: you mention the civil rights movement and i always think that while for so long the cameras were not there, there were no photographs, no one knew of the violence, the african-americans in this country were experiencing. at some point the cameras did

show up and that was so important to give the movement a boost to let people know when the example this is what people are experiencing. and i'm wondering, you know, when is the calgary going to show up? when is the media going to take notice? you're part of the media. you are a journalist. zimbabwe is your home. when do you think the tide will turn? >> guest: brucker the problem is they are good for keeping them out. >> host: mubarak intended to keep out as well. every correspondent found their way in. >> guest: zimbabwe has been difficult to get but also your right, the interest in the stories haven't been here and my worry is that to some extent i covered the last five or six years and there was a huge story

and like you're talking about the camera turned up and the future of south africa almost took place on people's television screens because the was a story that ran might after night after night. and that became what drove the story and your screen goes dark it's much more difficult to keep the issue alive. but my worry is the reason one of the main reasons that the apartheid was such a big story is that it had white people involved in it being badly and it was -- when you have with the south africans used to disparagingly called black on black that the international media stops being so interested and zimbabwe, they get interested in the white farmers were involved and that becomes a sort of sexier story with a wider demographic and then when it becomes the stories about

black people on both sides the oxygen goes of the story. i can't think of another reason why -- i do think that there is a different news judgment that comes into play. i mean, that's my experience on the ground is less interest. >> host: and you've covered both stories in your book and i found it interesting and i want to talk of the farmers but i want to get into a little bit of identity politics because i know from working on zimbabwe since it is always in the room its race and whether the criticisms of mugabe racially motivated criticisms i was once in a conversation where i took exception to the turn the terms being used to describe mugabe. he may be a dictator, he may be an autocrat. but flood is a word in this

country that is used to describe people who do not hold the title of you will. doing bad things, absolutely. but do not hold titles. and i wonder if those same words would be used as often mugabe or a white dictator and. talk to me about that. talk about identity and how white misplays into bulkeley the history of zimbabwe but is it just the white farmers or is it just led by the white farmers? is this the way to backtrack on the postcolonial game? is that one that zimbabwe has been left hanging out with the future? >> guest: the opposition is a black opposition. they worked their way into the union movement. the supporters are 99.999%

black. what is going on in zimbabwe isn't actively about race anymore. he would like to be about race and never mind that if there are 20,000 whites left in the whole country there are probably fewer than that and is minuscule and although they left them elderly we haven't touched on yet just how big the diaspora is. they've been leasing from some time but the black diaspora is enormous now. we talked about racial identity policies as someone like me but i was born and grew up in zimbabwe and i never left africa until i went to university. so i have a strange hybrid

identity and recent each other christmas cards and we had never seen in the culture where it's screwed up. it's interesting and it's weird. what's now happening and i find ironic is that of the black diaspora they are having the equivalent experience elsewhere so they are born and grew up in zimbabwe but now live in montreal or london or sit me and the children are being born and grew not there so we are meeting in the middle. we've all of this hybrid identity. in some wobbly itself, was interesting to see in the opposition is that the struggle has been going on for ten years now, and it's actually less the distance between the races because everybody feels the pressure of the dictatorship the

same. so there's a kind of bonding if you're in the trenches together. it's brought people closer together. and there are most principally in the book i describe it will bennett is one of the opposition leaders but by no means. >> host: but to hear a lot about him. he would be the leader because he's the one in the press i've seen coming out of zimbabwe that is discussed as being the kind of wanted is edging the poll. >> guest: i wouldn't describe him that we. i say the reason they get nervous about him is that he is the pitch perfect fluent speaker who was voted in by a completely rural black constituency and a single white voter and the thing like roy dennett is he looks in the mirror and doesn't see a white man looking back he just sees any zimbabwean and so did his constituency. it's one of those situations

where we think of the outside, democratically here is someone who has a black constituency and is voted representatives and race becomes less and less important. i got confused by the story for a long time. i grew up in the last stages of the white rule and race was an issue, a huge issue so i was still looking at roy bennett and said how does this work and trying to figure not the race angle to the story until eventually one day when i was looking at he was in prison and i saw him interfacing with his own constituencies and i realized that it's more about class than it is about race that he was living in rural zimbabwe among the constituency where they were often highly educated and whatever were just parachuting into the election in the italian loafers and then

going back to the capitol and so people just felt they were not representing them properly. they didn't know the issues, they were not around, so eight -- raise is only being used by my darbee now. i describe it in the book is it's like a sort of pinata he gives it a wac whenever he needs the issue to re-emerge and the kind of coming out of historical blame but he's been in power for 30 years now. at a certain point the issues on the ground he's seen in power. italian nation reflects his decision and its history. >> host: let's talk about that a little bit because i think it there is a lot of confusion around that. whether or not this is a section of mugabe and it's a reflection of the international community's and the undermining of his government. it's a reflection of, excuse me,

the dynamics going on, and we talk about mugabe as if this one man, this one person has been a ruling with an iron fist, but my understanding is zimbabweans or ruled between ten to 15 people and in some instances mugabe hasn't wanted to step down or be in power anymore and yet it has been the generals from the military and the police force that has refused to allow that. can you speak to that? >> guest: there was a moment in fact at the beginning of the book described a moment where he suddenly feels deflated and thinks it's time to stand down. and what i was hearing the wife wants him to step down so she can go shopping at international couples and have a nice life

then he met with his generals and everybody and they can't discuss the point. now i don't personally by that he is being run by use generals but he is an autocrat. he has a group of people around him and he doesn't do stuff, he's a good delegator when he once opposition, he doesn't rush out there himself, but he let it be known how he wants things to turn out. sometimes it drives me crazy when i even see the word anarchy and zimbabwe in the same sentence with gangs of thugs running around. everything happens for a reason and its highly controlled. it's more fascist than it is the market and he's been at the top of it for a long time and he's a fantastically sophisticated leader in the way that he

manipulates people. he's got none of his original comrades from the liberation war survived. they've died or have been fallen into disfavor so everybody around him and was their job but no one will stand up or criticize or bring a bad news. in that situation that all the sort of pathology develops where his world view starts to get more remote from the reality and things like when there's been droughts and now these days it's pretty good, we can see the crops haven't grown and we need to get in front of an otherwise thousands, tens of thousands of people will buy and none of them will tell that. and in the famine hits. so that's the problem especially as he gets older and think, that disconnect with reality has

become greater. >> host: it's interesting that you say that none of the former liberators, people involved in the liberation from the minority rule are involved in the government. can you talk about that? because that's something that many people don't recognize. they believe that mugabe was involved in alliteration struggle and its still the pushback from the liberation struggle and to rule zimbabwe in a way that would help all of them. >> guest: here's what happens. if you were a liberation leader you sacrifice, go to the war to get universal suffrage, you make the sacrifice and finally get to

the nation fried and then ten years pass and when there's an opposition and they want to vote against you you can see in turning around and saying you want to vote against me? you wouldn't have a vote if it wasn't for me. what happens is it's very easy what comes from the territory there is you have this whole liberation mythology and the whole history in places like cuba. if you go to zimbabwe you will be forgiven for thinking the war ended yesterday because constantly they try to keep that alive. it is the front of legitimacy. you did your pocket and and bring it out and it covers you with this you didn't fight in the war about any access to power, and it can make you very masai renu khator not careful. that's what can develop and has developed.

and mugabe is an iconic figure whether you like him or not. for 30 years now he has been dominating the political stage to such an extent he sucks all the oxygen of the room which is why it is so difficult to figure out what will happen when he dies. he's 87. he's incredibly fit for 87 but even mugabe is it going to live forever, and the problem is he won't nominate a successor and that is often the case with autocrats. they don't want to discuss their own mortality and have evidence of it so whenever anyone in his own party starts to kind of look like they are going to succeed and talk like that he destabilizes them and the two or three people from within his party talks about success have blood on their hands and are the people in charge of the repression in the many years.

once it is done it's not just -- i sometimes think that the international community's, the whole of their policies are wait for mugabe to die but i don't think that's really a policy. >> host: the other question that follows zimbabwe from of our but what goes on is who are the people still voting for mugabe? because while most people do believe that morgan did when the last election still a pretty good showing and i am just wondering what is the impetus behind following the party of mugabe? we know why the opposition party, you made that pretty clear but i'm wondering why are people still -- are they also in zimbabwe, and the rhetoric of the struggle of the liberation struggle? >> guest: mugabe's actual vote collapsed. we don't know what it was because there was so much.

the count wasn't fair. zimbabwe which had the lowest life span in the world i think it was down to i think 38 or 39 and yet on the electoral there were thousands of people who were 110-years-old. so the figures are a figment. that's part of the problem and the people who counted them were also not reliable. so on many added to that you had enormous intimidations of this example people would go to the local sub chief and say to him you people in your area, if they don't vote to then you won't get any more food aid or this or that so there's a huge amount of intimidation. so he did that, he said he was going to actually increase the number of polling stations. so winston of the three or four villages going to the same polling station and that we've didn't vote for mugabe they would have one village and that we could they could go to the village head and say you better

for the right way taha and he would say we have no option. so the truth is there some people in the elite, some people in his home area, there are some people but the actual figures and a real free and fair election where the opposition has access and counted properly. the opinion polls might seem have mugabe's real vote under the circumstances thinking little of 10%. >> host: it's interesting because in the book you talk about how important they are lonely and certainly assisting the regime and knowing who's who, but they also sometimes use their power to insure people the opposition get safe passage from a to be. one story that you told i believe someone was keeping a letter from his village saying

he's fine now, let him pass without being harmed. >> guest: that the village head is -- would show up as a -- people trying to survive and live their lives and get food. mugabe did this thing where areas that didn't vote for him he said he would cut off the food aid and wouldn't allow the u.n. and ngos to go into those areas so there's a lot of reasons to vote for mugabe other than just enthusiastic about voting for mugabe for a lot of people with the question of survival. >> host: i want to talk about what happens next in an interest in your forecast but the women in zimbabwe in two different ways, i noticed certainly the brutality towards women is quite severe and disturbing. so i'd like to hear you talk about that.

but on the flip side, one of the things i found interesting about the book is how women in your life played a role in the story. your mother, your sister came on the journey with you so i reflected talk about women so often in places where there's conflict in the divisiveness of the women are ground zero for the violence, they are taking care of children, too who also are victims of this sort of situation. you talk a little bit about zimbabwean women. >> guest: these zimbabwean women are a formidable population and they have been educated as i said of the general population, and they are extraordinary women. you are right. there's this incredible feisty lawyer who goes in to defend all sorts of opposition people and constantly harassed and she's a

5 feet but absolutely feels -- you should see her in court, astonishing. the wife was tragically killed in the course of the even talking about who was enormously influential won him. one of the women who see deputy president if mugabe buys while he is in power she will at least nominally takeovers and she's also strong and the one hiding in the moment is the minister of home affairs and is supposed to be in charge of the police looking for her to arrest her last week so you're right, the women play a very important role on all sides actually awful. >> guest: she lives in london

now and she can with me and made it much easier for us to be -- we didn't look like journalists were writers or whatever. so a terrific sense of humor and a great asset in helping floridian considerations and so people remember she was like teaching and had a music program and so that made -- that made it easier troubling your honor. >> host: i got the impression and you can tell me if i'm wrong about this pluggable impression that there's a lot of people in the diaspora from different countries experiencing turmoil and there are one of two ways people handle it, the move on with their lives and the move to new york and wherever and they are successful and to the best they can given the fact they are not in their home country and there are others that go back and is some slight you and your

sister plays a part of your destiny in the and it happens in zimbabwe and you want to be a part of the solution in zimbabwe, and i always wonder why is that? would you can blend in very easily -- >> guest: it's a jury good question and in many respects i should say to myself i need to move on but it's zimbabwe is such an amazing story, the narrative is so compelling and the tragedy is extraordinary and the people are so amazing and it's sort of affected by yet and lots of american friends and it affects them in the way that other countries don't affect them. i think there's a larger point which is the difference between the way that immigrants believe

it exiles, so looking for economic opportunity because they come from the poverty or they tend to be very positive blended in the new americanized whatever it is, people have been dislocated in the circumstances that render them homeless. they tend to have this attachment to the homeland and i will tell you something that's increased that and i'm fascinated someone should do a ph.d. is the impact that it's had on them because what used to happen is the shawl would fall 300,000 iranians are - america and it's hard to call home. it's expensive, you can't get a line, letters expensive, and eventually quit quickly the next

generation. but now they leave and they are all im'ing each of 30 million have more contact with people back home than they were when they were living there. so they keep up that contract and it is very high metabolic rate even once they've left. >> host: so we've seen what happened in north africa. it's been striking and the best of our scholars and academics didn't see that coming so many people believe this will be an opportunity oliver africa for people to really be able to take the reins of power and ensure it fruitful destiny for their country. and i wonder what you think the prospects of that are in zimbabwe. you've discussed the facts i believe that election is a little bit late but there is supposed to be an election

repression may be on the uptake who's left? who's left to really fight? >> guest: what's happened is the new constitution and the new election is supposed to take place after the optimal conditions free and fair. that's clearly not going to happen. so mugabe wants to push ahead and have elections just with things as they are to intimidate people, whatever. but the south africans have to stop that and that's where we are on that front. zimbabweans will be watching what is going on with enormous interest and encouraged by it, but there is one big problem and its effecter in egypt and places where i think sometimes isn't emphasized enough which is you can have your uprising and that's fine, but what makes it crucial is whether it succeeds or not is how the security

forces react. if the egyptian army had wanted to come they could have cleared the square in an hour. the would have killed people, but if there had been institutional determination it would have been over. that would have been that. and in zimbabwe for various reasons they didn't. in zimbabwe if you try to have mass protests and go up in arms against the ranks of peace and the army of soldiers, you won't be putting the stems of flowers down their gun barrels because there will be live ammunition fired at you and that is the problem that mugabe has the security forces that have remained very loyal to him and to his party. they've looked after them. the big game changer that's happening, just coming on stream in a big way now is they found probably the biggest discovery of the diamonds in history and eastern zimbabwe. and mugabe and his people have, you know, got pretty much exclusive access to it.

so that is completely rebuilt five his party and suddenly they are washed with money and that makes me feel quite bleak about the immediate future. >> host: what can or what should the international community to? there is a lot of talk on both sides about our intervention in libya. there is also a lot of discussion about, you know, whether or not the united states should have been supporting what was going on a more in egypt years before liberation actually occurred. what should the international community to? we all know the fine lines, the balancing act. what would you like to see? >> guest: at the moment we've got the aren't even sanctions, and little travel restrictions on about 200 people. >> host: and has to do with their ability to travel and shot and that sort of thing. >> guest: it's almost not worth having because it is nothing. and the key to the resolution in ziwe