we're seeing now. >> at some of the problem, what we were talking about education are these other areas simply be the fact that once countries become rich they get lazy? >> well i hope not. i actually don't subscribe to that at all. and the court last year was the fastest growing economy on the planet. it had about 15% gdp growth. i mean, that is really mind-boggling for a country that is really close to western standards. ..

>> jarmon.

>> host: thank you for joining me here today, peter. your book, "the fear" is the third book in a trilogy regarding the zimbabwe. i will start with the most basic questions. what is the fear? >> it is the third in the trilogy it is an accidental book. i did not visit zimbabwe intending to write the book is based on reporting of 2,008 and 2009. when it went there initially, the elections of 2008 they spun out of the mugabe control and it looked like he actually lost and

would have to stand down. so i was going to do a story about the end of the 30 year rule and turned into something completely different and mugabe essentially declaring war on the people and luncheon dais launching a campaign of torture on the industrial scale it all for road journalist the ngos where suspended are closed for that period and a lot of the opposition leadership fled the country and their lives were in danger but i stayed for that period and of the year is a summation of what happened in the very, very dark days. >> host: you are from zimbabwe. although one chapter says you can never go home again. there has been talk of race

relations in zimbabwe and many people with the polarized situation and continuing to live a party and the of the american experience our african-american experience and mugabe understands very well to spin the story to maximum advantage. white rule and minority roles the family was white liberals living in a rural area my mother was the communal doctor and i went to a multiracial church.

what happened and then mugabe wins the election of the third black then prime minister at the very height the community never exceeded 300,000 it is quarter of a million a real minority. about five /1% of the population. and went mugabe came to power nine of the foreign observers did not expect him to come to power. and was seen as a communist and two thought when he came to power he did not

nationalize industry. and indited the community, appeal to them now embarking on a new nation whether you are asian are white or whatever to come together but we were the precursor and we saw ourselves at that point*. >> host: what happened? south africa did you merge and although he was jailed for over 20 years, there are problems in south africa but going down most people believe is the right path but zimbabwe is repeating over and over the the one

crucial thing is that he is still down we never got past the first and but happened to was mugabe has been in power over 30 years. he installed himself and became more and more dictatorial and authoritative and then dictatorial and very quickly established a one-party state with a total grip on power. from those early-- land was a big issue. we say as far as we read about the american press, may have a situation

again and then a disproportionate amount of land and going back 21980 with the white commercial farmers to ramp a highly productive industries and say we will not take you off of your may and. you should go back and grow food from this region and they did. that carried on essentially for nearly 30 years. then move against the farm. when we moved against the farm we dressed up in the rhetoric of addressing.

>> but to what extent have that already been done? that is one thing with denser they mugabe was in a position to do one of the only postcolonial leaders and seven africa for 10 years. but it never receive the support most thought they received an eye for the economic programs. to what extent is the failure of the international community to support those sorts of new efforts not only to put the boat but the wealth into the hands of the majority? given that agriculture was said economic engine mugabe does that have oil or anything but the curious thing is for the longest time, it does not seem that

public about lee and. i was told it was second only too racial discrimination as a reason for the war and the fact that it was a close second to as a family ruled country. but it is my belief that one of mugabe start achievements of the early years that what happened the logistics of education were quite good but mugabe spent on education and quickly became the most illiterate nation the most educated by far with a huge middle-class. what tends to happen when you educate people, they don't want to farm and a more. you do not want to toil in the field you want to go to an office seto the pressure

to go back to the land was not that big. it wasn't in the front burner. two or three efforts. there was considerable foreign money to back up land reform. but they never actually happened until 2000 when the land invasion happens. the amazing thing you don't read this very often because what they love is the ratio binary of these things but the mydb real target is not the 10,000 white farmers farmers, but the 1 billion black farmworkers who were up from the farm workers union which supported the opposition and was a big 1 million votes lock that he

had to break up which was the commercial farming structure which he did successfully. >> host: there are the stories of change although we had the same leader in zimbabwe over 30 years there changes of society your book does an amazing job presenting to us the view from the ground after the 2008 election. i think we were struck not only by the level of the year that people have experienced. can you talk about some of the people you met and spoke with that possibly for being in the opposition party. not even evidence, not many people were abused. >> guest: it is very, very extreme.

i have been a war correspondent for decades. it must be premeditated-- premeditated but what was shocking with the democratic activist but what essentially happened is mugabe and his people end then with the chairmen and chairwomen and then to burn down their houses and pulling them into the newly formed torture bases which ironically because the schools have stopped working there was terrible hyper inflation and by 2008 the

zimbabwean dollar was high be evaluated within 24 hours. those who have not been killed, they were tortured on the industrial scaled. and now thrashed within an inch of their lives literally could not lie down of the flesh was ripped from their bodies the use of torture method where you be somebody on the soles of their feet so badly they could not stand. terrible pain in hospitals were working. people did die. and raquel day they were tortured civilians they severely been released back into their own community slam of them back or be

pushed on wheelbarrows or trying to walk at night that eventually come back with human billboards advertisements what happens if you oppose the regime. when they reemerge and this went on for months. >> host: and a journalist were pushed out but one of the things is i talk about the church and the churches' role. and the stories, thinking that mugabe cannot be torturing people he is a christian. there is a believe that his faith has driven him into war and politics and the

state as a leader because he does believe he has both the political and spiritual obligation broke out as a church and other institutions were raw they playing now to highlight the situations to uncover the problems and zimbabwe? >> mugabe himself as a catholic growing up in a jesuit mission station. he was so inundated with the solecism that he lived in the mission station he was abandoned by his father when he was very young and to run the mission station it was a substitute father so they wear a very active now the

war that wasn't thought was not just a war and then at that point* they back mugabe. but very quickly what happened to until we all too soon forget this, and then in 1983 he says of the brigade into there is trouble with the security issue to but with the civilian population would by current and we think there were 20,000 civilians. and the catholic church in

in reporting on the massacres and the district skidding turn of the country but the relationship with the catholic church started to change and he still went to church they were less trusting of him but the anglican church has split their is a pro mugabe priest who has taken over where he is no congregation they could not get to their church and have to worship on the lawns and in the streets and in the hall. >> host: there is systematic torture it is a

random not random gains you also describe a situation where the churches of the 10 to do anything about it but what infrastructure is in place where victims can go anywhere in southern africa? who is fighting for the people of zimbabwe and for the opposition victims? who was fighting to ensure the church and other organizations can operate? >> what happens that this particular time and what happens in advance of the elections, and the ngo, they do exist as well as a social ngo to provide medical help is put on notice they're very vulnerable has with those who are entering into the free election period it

is the uptick of violence what they do is accused of high treason and just recently those for watching with agility with the uprising auntie the end nine of them have been charged with high treason. and then others have been arrested as well and someone else arrested and now to say when our director he was arrested and accused of high treason so mugabe become

allergic to any criticism and it times like that it is difficult to provide the support there was no where to turn was hard to provide protection to 71 of the many things it is more illegal but three people better unrelated to be in the same room at the same time without permission from the state that is shocking of course, to most people when they hear that. can you talk about the ways in which the judicial system has been used to prop up the powers that is already in place? >> there is a parliament but

in truth ever since ian smith has relied declared the state's emergency but with the prime minister president to write laws and publish then a lot of laws are passed that way so you talk about one that prohibits anybody from gathering without permission and under that regulation he has door to the last three attempted rallies by the opposition. didn't have to give a reason they can just cancel. but then if you do gather you have committed a crime.

but not the time to bring the president's into disrespect but if you just criticize to say talk about egypt, you have probably breached that log that has very, very serious penalties it is an impressive regime we're in a complex situation where after the torture where mugabe declares himself president on the second round the two sides the opposition couple together and it is a worrying trend in africa now but when the zero convent loses it is a draw. but in zimbabwe he paid for the crimes. so what was supposed to

happen after the national unity is that that was a transitional period where all sorts of democratic reforms including the right of a political rally to have access to electronic media and what has been happen. >> host: what is the enforcement message? who was then charge of making sure? and that mugabe government has retained? >> and the party of education, health, and finances and spiraling out of control what has the international committee put forth?

if you polices, only adversaries are the people these of the the international community those two handed off the zimbabwe conflict and then to say the point* man on zimbabwe and south africa has a great tie in the region would sort it out and they would do it to the community and the cessation not do a reform but in practice but then the important ones the zimbabwe

broadcasting television and absolute complete monopoly from mugabe. you cannot have the independent radio stations. that was established on the basis that all of these things would be allowed. >> host: i have to push. it is striking in your book the situation is that people find themselves and telling of the father and his wife and his four year-old and his four months old. i am sorry. and he says i will run this

way. you run that way to save your life of the mugabe forces closing in on their home. south africa is in charge of ensuring the safety of people and injuring six government is not in reach. stories like that how was it possible people are turning a blind eye to what is happening? >> technically the torture that i described that is what led up to the establishment of the hybrid government. subsequently it has not been quite as bad but that case but to show that as his wife and kids tried to escape. i came across that as someone standing around as the opposition counselor in

the mugabe area and hundred came at night for him. and they have charged with spears and rocks with all of these people but then and said you better kill me because i know who you are now. they will come back to get you. why would you say that? i would say the error of my ways. [laughter] why would you say that? he said because it was true. [laughter] so there is a bravery almost to this in same degree. >> host: so can you describe you had to ask why.

why to the opposition party in a few tries to do with the national structure you will be noticed and you may be beaten or killed, why are people so opposed to the mugabe government? >> zimbabwe has collapsed. going from the high standard of living to one of the lowest they have lost all freedom at that point* is in the there really are democratic. there are countries that institutions where people are that an educated, it is more than just an election to establish a real democracy it is big middle-class and accountants

and a big firebrand society people cared about this where democracy could work they really are democrats and they decided to do it in a vain of margin mr. king and whatever the opposition would not be violent they pretty much hard to that but they have not been rewarded so with the body count going up, they don't fight back. the international community has a intended to ignore them.

>> announcing the civil-rights movement for so long the cameras were not there. no photographs nobody knew violence the african americans were experiencing and then the cameras did show up in which was so important to give the movement a boost to let the people in the north know that this is what people are experiencing. when will the calvary show up and when will the media take notice? you are a journalist, zimbabwe is your home. when do you think the tide will turn? >> television in particular, you cannot just walk in and decide year-old to it tomorrow. >> the barack attempted to

keep out the media and. >> they were allowed and has been very difficult but also, the interest in the story has not been there. my worry is that to some extent, i covered the last 56 years of apartheid. you talk about civil rights the camera at his turned up. the future of south africa almost a place on people's television screens because it ran night after night after night with this during images. that drove the story and if your screen goes dark it is much more difficult to keep the issue alive. but my worry is the reason that apartheid was such a big story it had white people involved beating back of a when you have the south

africans disparaging the black on black violence the international media stopped being so interested in then they get interested with the white farmers it is a sexy story with a wider demographic. and that it is principally about black people, there is a different news judgment coming into play and that is my experience on the ground. >> host: to cover both stories in your book and i find that interesting. i first went to get into identity politics. i know after working in zimbabwe, and when the guerrillas in the room is a race.

and if criticism of mugabe the racially motivated criticism? i was once in a conversation where i took exception to the terms being used -- used to describe mugabe. he may be a dictator, autocrats but at least in this country used to describe people who do not hold title and would they be used as often if they were a white to dictator? talk to me about that. talk to me about identity how that plays natalee into the history of zimbabwe but the current politics is it just led by the white farmer?

with the postcolonial ganes? is that why zimbabwe has been left hanging out there with no future? >> the black opposition working his way to the union movement mugabe book like to make it a race. if there are 20,000 whites it is a lot is minuscule and although many elderly the talk about this zimbabwe diaspora. but the black diaspora is absolutely enormous

especially with middle-class. so taka ratio someone like me is a white person but i was born and grew up in zimbabwe. i never left africa until i went to university per car have a strange hybrid identity and we would send each other christmas cards with snow where we never sees no. [laughter] is weird and no it is far more whites but what is happening and what i find so ironic is of the black diaspora they have that experience elsewhere. now from montreal or london or sydney and the children are being born and grew up there.

is zimbabwe itself that is interesting is the struggle going on for over 10 years everybody feels the pressure so there is a kind of bonding in the trenches is one of the opposition leaders by no means. >> you hear a lot about him. but the one coming out of zimbabwe it is looking at as the rabble rouser who edges the polls on they get very

nervous he was from a rural black constituency and he does not see some of looking back but the fact is so do his constituencies so would everything gone outside democratically summon her as a black constituency has the offensive and race is less and less important for crop i guru been the days of rate -- wage roll out and still looking at roy bennett to say how does this work and try to figure out the race anglo the story he was imprisoned and i saw him with his own constituencies

that is more about class and race. he was living among his constituents those from the highly educated parachuting into the election and then going on to the capital they were not around race is only being used by mugabe now and as i described in the book, like a pin data hid gives it a black whenever the issue to reemerge and the stale bonbons come out but he has been in power

over 30 years and at a certain point* the issues on the ground has been in power. the nation reflects his decision. >> host: let's talk about bad. i think there is a lot of confusion whether or not this is a reflection of mugabe and a reflection of the international community and the undermining of his government with the dynamics that are going on in southern africa. we talk about mugabe as of this one man but zimbabwe is a role between 10 and 15 people and in some instances mugabe has stepped down not wanting to be quote-unquote in power and then have to prove allow that. >> host: there is some momentum in fact, from the

beginning of the book where he loses the election that he feels deflated. and then when who wants to step down so she could go shopping and they could have a nice life again. and imelda marcos of zimbabwe. and they cannot discuss it more and i do not believe that mugabe is the autocrat. he has a group of people around him he is a very good delegator to ration out there to put on the fatigues and lets it be known how things to be turned out. and then to even see the

word has anarchy comment what those with gains of thugs running around it is more fascist and has been at the top of it for a very long time. son end of the original comrades who have survived. they have been dyed or fired but not everybody around him that nobody will stand up to him or bring bad news but in that situation but with the world views his star is to get more remote from the reality. says things like now these

days we have family forecasting it is pretty good. the crops have not grown and we need to get in front of it otherwise tens of thousands of people will die in the minister say no. but then the famine hits. especially as he gets older. that disconnect with reality has become greater. >> guest: it is interesting men of the former liberators all our people that were involved what involved in the government and can you talk more about that? that is something that many people saw recognize. they believe mugabe was involved with the struggle and from the struggle that made it impossible for him

to roll zimbabwe inouye that would help all people. >> guest: that is half right. if you are in the liberation try to put ourselves you go to war to get universal suffrage in your people believed he make the sacrifice and get the nation free with universal suffrage. and 10 years past but at some point* they want to vote so than what comes from the territory if you go to zimbabwe you are forgiven for thinking it ended

yesterday because constantly they try to keep that alive. that is a function of legitimacy you tip your bucket and you did not fight denied any access to power. it can make you very mess dynamic if you're not careful. that is what has developed. mugabe now, it he is an iconic figure if you like it or not. he has been dominating the political stage to such the extent that he has all of the oxygen out of the room which is the difficult for what happens when he dies. he is 87 but even mugabe will not live forever. but he will not nominate a successor which is often the

case of the autocrats. they do not want to discuss their own mortality. one 1/8 times anyone starts to look like they will succeed, he destabilize is. the 23 people within the party has blood on their hands. sell in fact,, those things could be destabilized once he starts. it is not just that the international community, the policy is not wait until mugabe dies, but that could be the policy. >> host: i wonder the other question that many people, who are the people that are still voting for

him? the then have a pretty good showing kumbaya what is the impetus to follow party my god be? -- mugabe? are they also in the rhetoric of the struggle of the liberation struggle? >> guest: mugabe action vote collapsed from zimbabwe which has the lowest lifespans they think in the world which is 38 tora 39 by yet thousands of people who are hundred and 10 years old. part of the problem so added to that you have intimidation who so they could say to him if they do not vote for pierce he will

not get any food aid or this or that so it was intimidation by increasing the number of polling stations. then you could say they to go to the village head to say you know, who you are. then to wait with no option. and then the actual figures in a free and fair election where the opposition has access to the media so of the real blow under those circumstances.

>> host: in the circumstances you talk about how not of the a sustained the regime to know who is to but also they use their power but then to have a letter to say he is fine, let him pass without harm but something like don't beat him on. >> guest: right. of that village head would show up as a percent blah, blah, blah but they try to live their lives and get food. put to cut off food aid so there is a lot of reasons to vote for mugabe the other

than just being enthusiastic. some people it is just a question of survival. >> host: what happens next? but the women of zimbabwe, i noticed surgeon laidback brutality towards when men is quite severe and disturbing. 10 then to things that to how the women in your life played a role the mother, your sister, i would like to talk about the man in. so often those of the conflict and divisiveness win in our ground zero the most impoverish come a taking care of children who are also victims broke the talk about the zimbabweians

when they are a formidable population. they have been educated as part of the general population and you are right. there is one incredible a feisty lawyer and it was constantly harassed and she is five ft. to but you should see her in accord. she is astonishing. and she was tragically killed. the woman who is the deputy president knows if mugabe dies while she is in power she will nominally takeover

so she is also very a strong hiding at the moment with minister of home affairs and supposed to be in charge of the police but they were looking for her to arrest her last week. you are absolutely right. that women players have a very important role on all sides. >> the women in your life comverse sister? >> and a mother came with me and made it much easier for us we did not confirm and was a great traveling companion with a lower and 10 situation and was like a d. j. that made it easier to

runaround. >> host: their people from the different diaspora experiencing turmoil and one of two ways that people handle it. they move on with their lives to move to london or new york and they are successfully doing the best that they can get that they are not in the home country. and others that you and your sister have determined that part of your destiny is that you want to be part of a solution. and why is that? why can you blended very easily? why? in many respects but the narrative is so compelling

and the story is so extraordinary and the people are amazing. anybody who travels to zimbabwe is affected. people go there for the first time and it affects them the way other countries don't. there is a larger point* the difference between immigrants be cave and exiles behavior so those are right that a country looking at economic opportunity they move forward and americanized whatever it is those who are dislocated from where they are from and those that rendered them homeless. they tend to have this

continued attachment and something very interesting much has increase that i would like to do the ph.d. on them buy the talking about this job would fall talk about the iranians arriving and letters take forever and eventually the next generation but now zimbabweians it leave now they e-mail and i and each other now have more contact then from when i was living there. >> and to see what happens with north africa with the best of the scholars and

academics who did not see this coming. [laughter] to believe this will be an opportunity all over africa for people to bring in the reins of power and whether prospects are in zimbabwe? there should be election who is left? >> guest: what is supposed to happen is there a new election blah, blah, blah clearly that will not have been. but they could still set a limit of intimidation but

the south africans have to stop that. that is where we are on that front. but zimbabweians have been watching north africa with encouragement and our encourage but the one big problem in those that are not to identify the nav you can have the uprising but what makes it crucial is if it succeeds is how the security forces react. of the egyptian army wanted, they could clear to rear square in one hour. but if they have the institutional determination it would have been over. but in zimbabwe but if you try to have the mass protests to go up against pranks of the policemen and the army of soldiers, you will not be put stems of

flowers down there done barrels because they will we too busy to fire live ammunition. that is the problem mugabe has the security forces that remained very loyal to him and his party that look after them. the big game changer is that the best discovery in eastern zimbabwe and mugabe and have the most exclusive access. and suddenly they are awash with money and that makes quite bleak about the immediate future. >> host: what can or should the international community do? there is a lot of talk on both sides with the interventions of libya. some of those years before the liberation actually

occurred. what should the international community do? it is a balancing act. >> at the moment they are not even in sanctions. >> having to do with their ability to travel and shop? >> it is almost not even worth having. but the key to resolution is still south africa. that is a regional power and zimbabwe depends on imports and exports and if there was the political will, it could be resolved in weeks or months. >> host: why don't they? they're trade union from south africa has enormous power frankly and have been very clear the zimbabwe cr