means recounts the life of john chap man, also know as johnny appleseed. he died in 1845 and was a great land speculator paving the way for future settlers. the 45 minute event took place at the johnny appleseed education center and museum in ohio. >> welcome. i'm the directer of the johnny

appleseed society here at urbana university here in ohio. we are located in the johnny appleseed education center and museum in historic bailey hall here at the university. we are hear to listen to howard means talk about his new book, his 10th book, and he wrote an biography about johnny appleseed or john chapman. the name of the book is "johnny appleseed, the man, the myth, and the american story. " i welcome howard. [applause] >> thank you, thank you very much. my book was published five daying ago, and i've done tapings with some of the syndicated radio shows, but this is the first live event for johnny appleseed, and, of course, it can't happen in a

more appropriate place not only because we're in the museum. joe was one the first people i contracted after simon agreed to publish the book, but before i wrote a words of it, and joe's been a terrific help from day one, author humphrey helped and he gave freely of his time and knowledge once i was able to lanch on to him, and i say latch, but maybe more of a blood sucking parasite. [laughter] while i'm digressing at the beginning, i should also add that one of the problems i faced in the book from the beginning was who to refer to john chapman and when to refer to him as johnny appleseed. in general, chapman refers to

the historical figure and appleseed to the myth he became, but the two are to intertwined that it gets worse than misty i'm afraid. i'll try to hold to that in these comments. back to where we are, urbana the city and the university, both are -- as all of you know, are bursting with appleseed connections. he met with the attorney to discuss possible legal proceedings concerning one of his or chards, a rare moment when a figure steps out from behind the curtain and lets us have a good look at him. he paced the room and chewed on nuts. john james for his part donated the land in which this college rose in 1850 as the only affiliated college west, the fulfillment of a dream long held

by john chapman. the first -- shared common interests with him and reportedly committed to paper what would have certainly been the most lementdy manuscript and portrait by the contemporaries, but that portrait has gone missing as many things have gone missing and so many tempting moments you can't quite find the document. maybe you have the documents in your home drawers, if so, let me know. this complex is located in the combined bailey halls. the printer considered baht the father of the new church in america, and also, sister-in-law law to john young as author showed convincingly gave johnny appleseed his first taste. the place crawls of connections direct and up direct. for me, at least, perhaps the

most rewarding of them all is the fact that this museum is the repository of the papers of florence merdock. because it was in those papers i was able to trace the history of how johnny appleseed made his film debut. the story begins in december 1944 a letter to merdock from a librarian. the librarian wanted to let merdock two studios, mgm, and disney asked around about johnny appleseed. of the two, she preferred disney take on the job, but not 100% certain. she wrote, i only trust they do not do something horrible. movies do. three and a half years later with the mgm movie scrapped and disney's animated version of the his life headed to theaters, merdock thought something

horrible is what was done. on may 26, 1948, the day before the cartoon classic was released, merdock wrote walt disney to correct the error of their ways. he praised them for celebrating his blessing, love, faith, and the apple tree. then the tone is heated. publicity shows he goated on to greatness by a coon skin cap, and for merdock, that was too fast and lose for the spirit world centralled to the vision. "the advertisements we have seen show the subject is treated in a relatively conservative matter other than the grow tesk figure of an angel. we are curious to know what reasons your studio arrived at this strange description."

this is one day before the movie is to be released. is it too late to make a change? perhaps substituting the figure of a child if the angel is out of place, or if that is impossible, could not the name be changed from guardian angel to spierpt of the frontier? let my digress. anybody here ever meet florence merdock? i got a vision of a stoward woman. they had a little -- she stuck in my mind that way. disney never replied and the last second requests were never made. that's probably just as well because without his guardian angel, disney's johnny appleseed never would have gathered the gumption to leave his

nonexistent farm in pittsburgh, cross the ohio river into the northwest territory. johnny appleseed and junny's angel, poor johnny is a scrawny fellow despite by being the average height of his time of five foot nine inches and was not a pioneer which was noted despite the fact he survived brutal winters, and apt got the muscle or the chest to join the pioneer parade heading west. there's not a hint of the intellectual depth and intensity that john chapman would have needed to wrestle his way as he obviously did, but that's hollywood. my 5-year-old grandson doored the cartoon as 5-year-olds have done for more than six decades, and what's more at the disney

studio took the myth and put it over the top. studio executives were more than prepared to defend their work. in a lengthy response to florence dated june 23, 1948, and on the wall behind me, it's one of the wonderful treasures of this museum, how the manager of the story department explained how the animated film, particularly johnny's guardian angel came to be. he wrote, was a simple and unassuming man believing his mission of planting trees in the i believedderness to be devinely inspired and believed in the direct physical manifestation of heavenly beings on the earth. it seems to follow that johnny's devine interpretation might take the form of a frontier angel, but he didn't stop there. we believe, he concluded, that our interpretation of a johnny appleseed story, though presented with a certain

whimsical humor, is the nearest approach on a sermon of brotherly lovable ever attempted in our media of entertainment. i can't disagree with that. the cartoon is as described, a sweet sermon on brotherly love, but as what happens with sermons, the man on whom it is built disappearings completely in the truth manifested. that's where the book began because that's where i began. i was one of the 5-year-old who learned about johnny appleseed from the disney treatment, and this is the appleseed i still knew after being 5 years old when a friend suggested i take on this project. as nearly two dozen years between now and then might suggest, i didn't exactly jump at the idea. other work had priority, and why take on a biography of such a known quality. i nibbled off and on, and as i did, the story was richer and richer until i guess i felt

compelled to jump into it. it was first of all the obvious discrepancy between john chapman and johnny appleseed, the man and the myth. robert price whose papers will soon be hope of the archives of this museum and learning center, price tackled the subject matterfully half a century earlier, but i've been able to add to that story. what's more than need is far greater now, and that's the legacy of the disney version which is basically all but obliterated him from the memory. i was able to do polling for this book. only 58% of adult americans thought johnny appleseed ever existed, had any historical reference, and only one in four americans could identify the right half century in which he had done his planting in the right part of the country, particularly these two states, where he spent most of his adult

life. i did informal asking around. who is john chapman, i'd ask in my favorite answer? the guy who murdered john lenno. [laughter] that was mark david chapman. i say this in the book that johnny appleseed might be the best known american about whom most americans know nothing real at all. i should add also that thanks to john and his friends, all that polling da faith traditions including pages and pages of demographic break downs is now in the possession of this museum and education center which is exactly where it belongs. there's the sheer mystery of it all trying to think about doing this book. thanks to a whole host of researchers, including florence wheeler who finally nailed down the chapman genealogy, we have these tent den ten that liesing

hints of john. we know where he was born and more or less died. a case can be made who is at the grave site in wayne is not john chapman. we have apple orders in hand, even that wonderful trading post ledger back in warren, pennsylvania showing chapman purchased two small histories after crossing with his brother in early 1800s. it's fascinating to know, but no way to know unfortunately. we are trying to penetrate that mystery made it ire resistible for me as did the sheer weirdness of its character. the mid-19th century historian called chapman the oddest character in all history. i read in my book he had the eye of a speculator, the heart of a

philanthropist, the purge of a frontiersman, and the wondering instincts of a nomad. he wanted land, but could never settle on it, ran a far flung nursery business and ran it as hard as anyone could, and gave away half his stock and fair advantage of his profits. the 19th century, early 19th century ohioist is filled with characters, pioneers building homes inside trees, famous brawls and boozers, a rogue of gallery of people, and what struck me is among all these people, chap man stood out like he was painted neon purple. everyone knew him, realized what a singular person and even a crack pot he was, and yet he was the most beloved people among the frontier. that line of exploration got me to the context of the times where the story deepened for me,

how west ward expansion was dammed up at the river, the northwest territory was a huge real estate event waiting to happen when chapman arrived at the shores of the river in the early 18th century, the way the second great swept over all of this. and the rainbow coalition splintering and reforming christian denominations. he lived a lonely life deep in the woods, but was a part of all these forces swirling around him as nursery men, real estate speculator and evangelist. in the off year election of 1806 when settlers around mount vernon got to vote for the first time, john chapman was the first of the 15 eligible males to cast a vote. what a triumph and people

wondering out of the woods to vote. also, another character almost lost in memory is the noted swedish scientist, a man widely thought to be the greatest mind of 18th century europe and undeniably the transforming muse of john chapman's life. i suspect, in fact, i know many of you here in this town and school with such rich roots know as much or more than about sweden borg than i do, so i'll share -- spare you my ignorance on the subject. his history is so rich i can't resist retailing it. maybe this is well known, so i apologize for repeating the story everybody here knows. he was having dinner by himself late in the evening at a london chop house, 1745 when the room went dark and the floor began rising with snakes. he writes that he looked off to

the corner of the room and saw an old man sitting there and the old man offered him four words of add violation. don't eat so much, and then disappeared as the room returned to late. later that night, the same man appeared in his dreams, identified himself as god and revealed the hidden truths of the bible. who can resist a story like that? that's what happened time and again in the course of writing the book. something unique was witting. that gets me to the mythic character of johnny appleseed himself and to the time mystery of john chapman. the book is subtitled the man, the mist, the american story because i think i adequately show that the myth of johnny appleseed gets reinvented generation by generation. in the late 1800s and early 1900s, he was a symbol of american innocence, a time before war ravaged the land, before native americans were driven to reservations, and west ward expansion swept away the

supposed eden this place once had been. johnny reemerged as a spokesman for the healthful properties, not e inebriating ones of the fruit. advertisements in the 1950s and 1960s praised his financial shrewdness. oddly enough since his real finances were often a complete mess. by the mid-1970s, so-called johnny appleseed's was around the country side selling cannabis seed and a new ewe utopia of the stoned. the phrase johnny appleseed of pot gets you like 10,000 hits on google. amazing, isn't it? [laughter] so this constant reinvention continues into our own time and

modern interest of conserving this wonderful creation we have been handed. two centuries before there was a simplicity movement, john chapman created a lifestyle that was simplicity itself, a level of consumption driving the national economy back to a barter system of widely practiced. snuff, the occasional tool, the books, night under the roof, that was all the earth's resources he needed, and the books he recycled to a fairly well. he didn't live lickly in the land, he barely touched it even though he walked it constantly. the gift to be simple is the gift to be free is the gift where you ought to be as the old hymn goes. when we find the place we're supposed to be is when we're in the love. this is such a fragile creation. they were there coddling nature

like a newborn baby. that might be the greatest gift of our time. john chapman had scripture urging him on. all things in the world exist from a devine origin clothed with forms in nature as enable them to exist there and perfect their use and correspond to higher things. however it came to by by god's hand or nothing more than a cosmic accident and whatever label one comes to the challenge, creation care, evangelical care, planetary survivalist, this whirling globe of ours needs love better. as in life, johnny appleseed is waiting out there now at that raiser thin line between present, future, man and myth, the real and the imagined readily to lead the way. a lot of factors proposed chapman the man and the myth, the new church, tendency to

exage rate a story, the times, so few threats held man to the real world, but i also think that john chapman played himself -- this dawned on me -- that john chapman himself played a role in the transformation. he liked to tell stories about himself, his escapes, stamina, and in a sense, he was his own wondering minstrel. he talked about many subjects, the one thing john never talkedded about were the actual details of his life. he was well-known in fort wayne when he died there in march of 1845, living in and around the place for a decade by then and merited a nice 300-plus word o ware. the writer had no clue how old he was, where he was born, where he lived before coming to ipse, other than it was in ohio. it said he lived in the area of

cleveland, and while chapman can reasonably be associated with 16 #-18 different towns in ohio, cleveland is not one of them. people recalled his heroic feats, a run through the night forest of indian raiders, remembered legendary acts of kindness, rescuing abused horses, giving his clothing to pioneers worse off than he was. he was a saint, a john the baptist of the wildernd, but about the essential man, they knew almost nothing. it's like he was rehearsing for the part of johnny appleseed all along. now, if i might, i'd like to read the short epilogue of which i close the book, and it won't spoil the story or tack too long either. the epilogue is called my johnny. a close friend, a lawyer with a heart, has a vision of john chapman building his bramble

enclosures, planting his seeds, twirling the whole night long in concord with whatever he conceived of. i can see that. chapman, appleseed, whatever you call him, god talked to him through every tree, leaf, rock, every beast great and small, every atom of creation. how could he not twirl in joil? his loneliness was not as lonely after all. if his belief was true, and we are in this world surrounded by spirits, eel or good, which are evil or good behavior invitings to be of our company, then this harmless loving uncouth half crazy man walked daily with the angels of god. i can see henry david thoreau in chapman. he layed dying in a cabin and

thoreau was digging his cabin. for all intellectual independence, he was within easy walking distance of the world he always knew. even reflecting on life and the woods, thoreau was carrying laundry home to his mother. not so chapman. an article for the american heritage magazine in 18 -- 1789 it was suggested if there was a diary, he would be compared to the the great indian portraitist. i like that. it would have not been a relentless critique of the revolution, but chapman lived his critique, the nature he loved and gave himself to vibrated through his entire body.

years ago, i spent a long night with the washington, d.c. emergency psychiatric response team, heroic men and women tepidding to the insane deemed institutionalized from area hospitals. most of those they treated that night were living in the city's parks, short walks from the capitol of the white house. these are women convinced they were man castrated by demons, men bane at the moon. one man told me when he talked down the street and saw the stars overhead, he was convinced each start was part of a space fleet looking to him for direction. if i turn right, they turn right. if i tern left, they turn left. what if i turn the wrong way, he said to me. he was paralyzed in the middle of the intersection. i can't help recall those people when i think of johnny appleseed. they were dressed somewhat the same. they smelled horribly and john

chapman probably did. voices exploded in their heads, brains on fire, occasionally their eyes glowing when he talked. by modern definitions yes almost was insign. as the old add yag goes if you talk to god in prayer, but if god talks to you, it's scrit -- schizophrenia. what a simple joy it is that walk among the woods and beckenning me to join them. there is a pleasure in the pathless woods lord byron wrote. there is a society where none intrude and it was for john chapman to go in this busy world, walk the pathless woods, feel the sun on your skin, shine and be simple. that's johnny appleseed to me, and that's what i have to say. i'll be glad to take my

questions anyone has, and i think there will be some. i actually -- i'm going to throw out the first question because i've been somewhat criticized in print and medium, and perhaps rightly so for suggesting that he was almost certainly insane. does that strike those of you who know the story as almost as well as i do as completely over the top? anybody want to venture an opinion on that? yes? >> i think -- >> oh, i'm sorry. >> i think that the impression that we have of john is probably a lot like a lot of people in our lives that aren't of the normal, are not neurotypical, but at the same time operate in society and not certifiably insane, but maybe instead just someone who operates differently

maybe like an autistic person. >> maybe it was the wrong word, that's a problem, maybe it's a word i threw around too casually. it's in 12,000 copies, what am i going to do? live with it i think. [laughter] we have a mic over here. who wants to start with a question? yeah? >> i've also been studying john for probably twice as long as you did, and i'm just fascinated that you seem to have found twice as much information that i have in half of much time that you were dedicating yourself fully to. how many trips did you make, how many places did you go, how many years did you devote? this is nonfiction, and you needed to do research into things that are not that well-known, and i'm just curious how you did that. >> funny story. this, as i said earlier, this book started in 1989 when i

friend told me to write a biography of johnny appleseed, john chapman, and so i thought i hadn't done anything about it, and when i gone through my files i had old things i pulled off on the tractor pull printers, you had to tear off, just horrible equipment, and i had a fair amount so in terms of the actual writing, the actual writing was 14-15 months. research was double that i'd say, but i had a backlog of material that i had been saving strange all along. where i went basically everywhere that he was known to be. except -- except that creek you mentioned. i think i missed some of the creeks, but i mean, and author pointed me to some of these places, but, yeah, you have to get on the ground. you have to see the places on the ground, and, you know, i thought, well, what's the big

deal about walking across the river and pennsylvania turn turnpike? you get out, look at the edge, and go, oh, just think about all of this. that was part of it, and then, frankly, google has made life so much easier. every county in ohio, i think i can safely say indiana, has a history of the county done between 1855 and 1880 and often two or three. google digitized all of these histories, and i thought when i started doing this i would be spending months at the library of congress, which for me is about a 65 mile drive, and 130 round trip and got to take the metro to the library of congress and wait for them to bring you your books, and for months of my

life i thought i would disappear to the library of congress, beautiful please if you have never been there, please go. it's digitized. if you find a book you want, press the button, it's on-demand printing. author -- author david holbrooke had this 11 volume history of transportation in america that you can just -- i mean, it's magnificent stuff and for $15 it's at your door five days later. pretty amazing stuff. anyone else? please. yeah. i think there's a microphone coming your way. >> i wondered in your exploration of material available like merdock records here and other places you've been, did you sense that there's much else that's not been discovered? that some other writer could

come along and say i wonder what else is new that we vice president known about john chapman, is it to be discovered and written about? >> i think there definitely is. for example, one of the things i was hoping is i think there's a chance that he was baptized by william hargroove, the famous baltimore new church preacher in brownsville, pennsylvania in 1806, kind of a mass baptism took place in brownsville in the river, and there were 30-40 people. hargroove's papers are in theory at the state historical society in baltimore, maryland state historical society, and i go there, and i open up his

journals, and it has 1806, the reference was, i looked on the back, john chapman, and the page number corresponded exactly to 1806, and i knew he recorded the names of all those he baptized. well, this was john something chapman who lived somewhere else. there were john chapmans all over the place. the problem was all the chapmans named themselves john. all the females are elizabeth. they are all over the place. that, but that may -- then i had a cup of coffee two months ago, keech baxter who -- kevin baxter who graduated from this institution said that could be in california, and by then it was too late for me to find it, but there has been i think the library people have done a

spectacular job, but, you know, there's more. there's always more. i mean, look at the letter that elizabeth chapman wrote to her husband on her death bed essentially in 1776, may of 1776, spectacular letter that laid in trunks for 150 odd years. there's letters lying in trunks around here not maybe by chapman, but by those who knew him, and somewhere is the mila williams moon ewe script, and that's a mother load for those who want to pursue it. you got to find it. i couldn't. i just couldn't find it. anyone else? yeah, please. >> what was your favorite story that you included in the bible that -- or not the bible -- [laughter] in the book. >> the favorite story, well, he

told it, but others told it too is the story of the -- the mansfield oregon run. do you know that one? okay. the year is 1812, it's the indians are, you know, war of 1812, the tribes of ohio are making common cause with the british or everybody thinks. there is an event that takes place in -- it's a horrible event that takes place in mansfield actually. they round up green tree indian indians, descend them to urbana to be out of the british influence. they march them two miles away, detour them, burn their village, one girl, 12 years old i think she is, happens to be visiting from another tribe, her father

comes to take her away. they shoot the father. they behead him, scalp him, soldiers drink whisky from his scalp. it was a scene beyond horror. they were seeking the avenge of the avenge of the avenge cycle. word comes that indianed -- oh, meanwhile, the garrison of soldiers comes to march to urbana. they have this meeting, and i have to find this in the book -- they have this meeting and say somebody has to go warn the people in mount vernon, and, you know, this is clear-eyed man bereavely steps -- bravely steps forward saying i'll do it. he runs presumably through the night and stops at all the

cabins along the way. can you wait one second? let me find this real quickly because it's a wonderful -- he said one of two things while he was doing this, and if i can find this quickly enough, which i probably can't, rats. give me just one second. this is bad air time. okay. oh, here it is, here it is. yes. so he runs from he leaves mansfield about six o'clock at night, gathering dark, runs through the dark all the way to mount vernon which happens to be exactly 26 miles by a miracle, exactly the great marathon, and then he made a run back again. some accounts have him running back again. he told these stories himself.

he didn't mind telling the stories, but what was wonderful is there were two different memories of what he said. he would stop at every cabin, and one pioneer's son remembers him screams, fly, fly for your lives. the indians are murdering and scalping at mansfield. not be. the others remember him calling out this message, the spirit of the lord is upon me anointing me to blow the trumpet in the wilderness and sound the alarm for the the tribes are devouring flames. imagine saying that after running 15 # miles. [laughter] apparently he said it time and again. he didn't say it on the way back. could he have done it? in fact, marathoners ran 52 miles in 16 hours, he did it in 11 hours. he was 26 years old at the time, great physical condition, and

there's the possibility something is true about them. he escaped the indians by pulling the canoe into a passing ice flow. he was so reflaxed, fell asleep 100 miles down river and comes back up. that's the story he liked to tell a lot. that's why -- that's why as i was doing this, it came up on me more oh more there's a certain myth, and i don't know what it was. i speak late in the book if you read it, i speculate in the book that, well, how do i put it? that in order for the myth to be born, the man had to die in a way, and i -- there was nothing holding him to a sound. he had his father, well, his father died two years after he moved to ohio, but his stepmother and half brothers and sisters were living only 80 miles away in the duck creek

settlement now what is dexter city i think. that was an afternoon stroll for john. there's a wonderful history of washington county where all of this took place. there's no mention of john chapman or johnny appleseed appearing at all. everybody else appears in it which leads me to believe he never went back to visit his family, so i don't know what it was. there's a bunch of possible reasons for that, but just -- anyone else? please. ask up. i can drone on for hours. [laughter] >> i was kind of curious, did anybody ever do studies -- he spent a lot of time with quakers, and so, you know, i can find that connection, but i was

curious if any quakers or anybody has never claimed him as one of their own, but just in a sense part of their communities in a sense since he did stay with people a lot? >> you know, there's a story somewhere -- no, that was a universal unitarian if that who he got mad at through this book at. i know the quakers wind in and out of the story, but, no, i don't. i never saw any evidence of that. that's another -- back to frank's question, another thing to be discovered. just open it up. every time you turn over a rock, there's another story to be told, and there's all these sort of -- we talked about earlier, sally, maybe that was you, all these family connections. john chapman's mother's first

causen was count rumford, and as fascinating character as you're likely to find, a sort of a-moral benjamin frankly, an absolute genius who was a complete rake, and but, you know, i ended up cutting pages and pages out of the final moon -- manuscript because i'm fascinated by these people. eyes on the prize as my wife kept reminding me. [laughter] anyone else? yes, back there. >> any mention in your books about feelings on nature? i know there was a story about the rattle snack that bit him, about not killing bugs around the campfire? >> oh, absolutely. thank you for mentioning that. he had a hinduism quality to

him. these are stories i should have mentioned, the famous story where he presumably -- [no audio] the other story about, yes, putting out the fire so the bugs wouldn't be burned. you and i push them towards the fire, and he'd put out the fire. there's this pure quality. as i say in that epilogue, he really did see -- another story while he planted apples by seed. he talked about this. because the apple then feels the grafters knife as surely as the human limb does so you can only

plant by seed. it's an inefficient way to plant apple trees as you know. apple seeds are fascinating. every apple seed continues the yes kneltic material for every variety of apple ever made, so if you plant an apple seed, if you have a gala apple and save the seeds and put them in the ground, your chances of getting a gala apple tree is one is 100,000. what's more, apple trees when you plant by seed revert to their native state, and that state is central asia where they had to do great battle with a canopy, so they grow to 70 feet and take 30 years to produce a crop. it's not an efficient way to plant apples. many of you know michael's take on this, the frontier of bootlegger, unintentional fit. interesting story. ap w