community and insulated with love and a father would say you can do anything you want. to let anybody define who you are. if you want to be a doctor be a doctrine that is what we did. we put the blinders on and put earplugs in our ears and kept going forward to what we wanted to do. [applause] >> my name is ashley, and i was wondering, when you were in college for a long time did you start to drift off even though you are doing what you loved? love? did you ever change a major quake in combat? >> some people do that. i didn't and people say being a doctor for so many years, you have to live those many years anyway. when i went to a university, there was a prescribed course that you had to take in the curriculum and you have to follow so i followed the creek on.

however some of my colleagues who are physicians now, they took two years and they went to chinese literature or art and they came back to pre-med and they just didn't go to medical school right away. in my situation i went straight from undergrad to medical school without any sort of deviation. >> thank you. >> are welcome. [applause] we have the last two questions. >> did you ever feel obligated to be a doctor because your father was telling you to do it or did you try to do something else or look into another field? >> that is a good question. not me but my other sister jeanette. and my father wanted us to be physicians because he felt by being a physician you are financially secure and you are safe. i have always wanted to be an obstetrician so there was a confluence of what my father wanted ie being a doctor and what i personally wanted which was being an obstetrician.

at doctor who delivers babies was an obstetrician so i was the first one in my family to become a doctor. i aspired my younger sisters. i motivated my older sister so that we all could go forward and do the best that we could do. [applause] and there is one more. >> my name is shirley evans and my question is out of the 5000 children you delivered is very specific memory that stands out to you the most? >> that is an excellent question and we will end on and on that. why? i didn't have an answer to that question a few weeks ago but i have an answer now. what stands out in my mind? of the 5500 or to babies are delivered i was asked to attend the wedding of one of the babies that i delivered 25 years ago, and i was there at the end of february. her mom was in a wheelchair. her mom was a paraplegic and that is why she came to me.

she had a complicated urgency. i delivered her mother. no obstetrician around would want to touch her mom but i said if you can get pregnant, with the help of god we will take you through it. we did and she delivered her lovely daughter so i was asked to be a guest at her daughter's wedding. when i stood up and saw her, the baby that i delivered walk down the aisle and her mother in a motorized wheelchair right next to her, it was such an overwhelming emotional time for me to say that if i weren't trained that will that young lady would not be there. for me it was a wonderful time to see that i do touch people. i do make a difference and is an obstetrician who touches a child before the mother touches it, you do touch and have a feeling of immortality. thank you very much for asking that question. [applause] >> to find out more visit the author's web site,

dr. thornton.com. up next on booktv howard means recounts the life of john chapman also known as johnny appleseed. mr. manes reports that john chapman who died in 1845 was a voracious land speculator whose western travels helped pave the way for future settlers. this 45 in that event took place at the johnny appleseed educational center and acm at urbana university in ohio. >> welcome. i am the director of the johnny appleseed society here at urbana university in urban eye, ohio. we are located for this program and the johnny appleseed educational center and museum in

historic bailey hall here at the university. we are here to listen to howard means talk about his brand-new book. this is his tenth book and he has written a biography of johnny appleseed or john chapman and is here to tell us all about it. the name of the book is johnny appleseed, the man, the myth and the american story. so i welcome howard. [applause] >> thank you, thank you very much. my book was published only five days ago and since then i've done some taping sessions with some of the nationally syndicated radio shows that this is the first live event for johnny appleseed and of course it could have happened at a more appropriate place. not only because we are in the newly renovated johnny appleseed educational center and museum. joe was one of the first people i contacted after simon & shuster agreed to publish the book but before i really had written a word of it and show

has been a terrific help from day one, one of the johnny appleseed society trustees sitting at the end of this row, if you don't know who he is, has done wonderful research into the roots of john chapman's introduction to immanuel sweden berg and the church of new jerusalem and arthur gave freely his time and knowledge once i was able to latch onto him. i eisai latch although he may be more inclined to think of it bloodsucking parasite but still he was generous with his time and his knowledge. while i am digressing, should also add one of the problems i faced in this book from the beginning was when to refer to its title character is john chapman and when to refer to him as johnny appleseed. in general, chapman refers to the historical figure while appleseed to the myth that he became. but the two are so intertwined things were a little worse than misty but that is generally what

i'm trying to hold to hear in comments. back to where we are and where we are, urban the city and urbana university. as all of you know here are both bursting with chapman appleseed connections. urbana was where chapman met with john james to discuss a possible legal concerning skin turning one of the sources. one of those rare moments when historical figures steps up out from behind the curtain and lets us have a good look at him. for the record chapman pace the room while he chewed on nuts. john james for his part -- as the only affiliated college west of the alleghenies, a dream held by john chapman. the first present of the university shared many common interest with him and reportedly committed a paper would almost certainly would have been the most lengthy and illuminating

manuscript -- portrait of chapman and his contemporaries but that alessa's gone missing. so many things have gone missing, so many tempting moments that you can't quite find the document. maybe you all have the documents in your home drawers and if so let me know. the johnny appleseed complex where we are meeting today is located in the alien berkeley halls berkley hall's name for frances bailey. the printer considered to be the father of a new church in america and for bailey's work hester barkley sister-in-law of john young who arthur has shown convincingly certainly gave johnny appleseed his first taste of swedenborg. the place crawls with connections direct and indirect. for me please perhaps most rewarding of them all is the fact that this museum happens to be the repository of the papers of florence murdoch the longtime secretary of the new church library in cincinnati. because it was in those papers that i was able to trace his

history of how johnny appleseed happened to happen to make his film debut. the story begins with the december 1944 letter to murdoch from a librarian and the indiana historical society or good library and wanted to let murdoch melded to studios, mgm and disney, have been asking around about johnny appleseed. of the to the library and clearly preferred disney take on the job she was not 100% certain. i only trust she wrote that they did not do something peculiar and horrible. three and a half years later with the mgm movie scrapped and disney's animated version of johnny's life headed to theaters nationwide, murdoch was convinced that something peculiar and horrible was exact and what the walt disney studio had done. on may 26, 1948, the day before the cartoon melody time was released murdoch wrote walt disney to correct the error of his ways. her letter begins on a high note

with murdoch praising the studio for celebrating johnny's blessings three, love, faith and the apple tree. but then the town grows more here. publicity had showed johnny goaded on to greatness by a sourpuss -- in a skin cap and for murdoch that was playing way too fast and loose with the spirit world that was central to swedenborg. quote the advertisements we have seen indicate the subject was treated in a relatively conservative manner except for that extraordinarily grotesque figure of the guardian angel. we are curious to know by what process for reasoning your studio arrived at the strange conception. what to do? murdoch had several suggestions. keep in mind this is one day before the movie would be released. is a two-faced to make a change perhaps substituting the figure of a child if an angel would seem out of place she asked disney? or if that is impossible cannot

the name be changed from guardian angel to perhaps spirit of the frontier? let me digress once again. has anybody here ever met florence murdoch? in the course of doing this i have got this vision of her as one of the stalwarts types, you know sort of barreling forward, very buxom made. dr. women were completely loose dresses in my day. that just sort of stuck in my mind. in an advanced disney never applied and the last section -- second corrections were never made and that is just as well because without his guardian angel disney's johnny appleseed never would have gathered the come hsinchu lead this nonexistent farm near pittsburgh marks was crossed the ohio river into the wilderness of the northwest territory. in disney's the old settler johnny john appleseed and johnny's angel poor johnny is quote such a sawed-off scrawny

fellow despite being by all accounts exactly the average height of his time at five feet nine inches and weren't no pioneer he noted notwithstanding the fact he walked across the mountains mountains of pennsylvania, survived earl winters in a hostile environment and quote ain't got the muscle or the breadth of chest, budha chris on the face of it, to join the pioneer purveyed heading west. worse there is not a of intellectual depth and intensity that john chapman would have needed to wrestle his way into swedenborg's troops as he obviously did. but that is hollywood. by fibrograndson adore the cartoon as five euros have been doing now for six decades, more than six decades and it's more of the disney studio took the appleseed myth and pushed it over the top. the storyline was hardheaded that way and studio executives firm more than prepared to defend their work. and a lengthy response to florence murdoch dated june 23, 1948 and along the wall behind

me, one of the wonderful treasures of this museum, how it'll angel crestor was manager of disney story department explain department explain how the animated film particularly johnny's guardian angel came to be. john nato quist was a simple and unassuming man. he believes his mission and planting trees in the wilderness tube be divinely inspired and firmly believed in the direct physical manifestation of heavenly beings upon the earth. thus it would seem to follow he wrote that johnny's divine interpretation might well take the form of a frontier angel. but he did not stop there. he believed he concluded that our interpretation of johnny appleseed story though presented with a certain whimsical humor is the nearest approach to a sermon on the subject of brotherly love, unselfishness ever attempted in our beating and entertainment. i can't disagree with that. a cartoon short is what he

described a sweet sermon on brotherly love that it has had to do with a lot of sermons and disappears in the truth being manifested. that is really where this book began because it is where i began. i was one of those five girls whose first learned about johnny appleseed from the walled disney cartoon and this is the johnny appleseed i still knew back in 1989th long after i was five years old when a friend first suggested i take on this project as a nearly two dozen years between now and then might suggest, it didn't exactly jump at the idea of. other work had tired he said why take on a biography of such a known quantity? but i didn't put the prospect off and on and as they did the story just got richer and richer until i almost felt compelled to jump into it. there was first of all the obvious discrepancy between john chapman and johnny appleseed the man in the myth. robert crises papers hopefully be soon be part of the archives

tackle the subject masterfully half a century earlier but i think i've been able to add to that story. what is more than need is far greater now large part to legacy of the disney cartoon version of johnny appleseed's life which is basically all but obliterated john chapman from the american memory. thanks to a friend john zog he i was able to do some polling for this book. only 50% of adult americans thought johnny appleseed had ever existed and he had any historical -- and fewer than one in four americans could identify the right half century in which he had done his landing and the right part of the country in these two states where he'd spent most of his adult life. i also did some informal asking around among well-educated friends of mine. who is john chapman i would ask? my favorite answer, he is the guy that murdered john lennon. [laughter] that was mark david chapman.

[laughter] in the end i concluded and i say this in the book, johnny appleseed might be the best known american about whom most americans know almost nothing real at all. and i should add also as an aside that thanks did john zogby and zogby international all that polling data including pages and pages of demographic break downs is now in the possession of this museum and education center which is exactly where it belongs. there was also the sheer mystery of odalys it looked at this and tried try to think about doing this book. thanks to a whole host of researchers including the other indomitable florence, florence wheeler who finally nailed down the chapman genealogy we have these tantalizing hints of john chapman. we know where and what he was born, we know more or less where and when he died salt though the case can be made whoever centered at the chapman gravesite in ft. wayne is not john chapman. we have promissory notes and we

even have that wonderful trading post ledger back in warren pennsylvania that shows chapman purchased quote to too small history shortly after crossing the alleghenies with his brother nathaniel in the early 1797 but history of what? royalty, ancient roman aging greece? there is no way to know unfortunately. trying to penetrate that mystery made writing the book almost irresistible for me as dead, let's be honest the sheer weirdness of its principle character. the mid-19th century historian and ohio called chapman they the artist character in all our history and he was certainly every bit of that. i read in my book that he had the eye of the speculator, the heart of a philanthropist, the courage of their frontiersmen and the wondering instincts of a bedouin nomad. in fact he had almost self canceling nature. he wanted land that could never

settle down on her. he ran a far-flung there should business and worked harder than anyone could and then he gave away half his stock in a fair percentage of its profits. but here is the larger.. the 19th century, early 19th century filled with characters, piraters to build homes inside of trees, famous brawlers and legendary boozers a rogue gallery of eccentrics and what really struck me was among all these people chapman's eccentricity stood out as if he was painted neon purple. everyone knew him. everyone realized what a crackpot he was in it he seems to have been the most beloved people, frontier. deadline of exploration in turn got me into the context of the times and that is where the story t. been for me. how westward expansion have become ramped up in the ohio river, the fact the northwest territory was a huge real estate event waiting to happen when chapman arrived on the shores of the river at the end of the 18th century.

the way that the second great awakening swept over all of the camp meetings the true 10 and 20,000 people and often involve as many as two dozen preachers from a rainbow coalition of every splinter and reform of christians christians in nomination is. john chapman lives and often lonely life deep in the woods but he was also an integral part of all these forces swirling around him as nursery men, real estate speculators and evangelist. in the off year election of 1806 when southerners around elk creek today's mount vernon got to vote for the first time, john chapman was among the 15 eligible males who wandered out of the woods to cast their ballots. imagine the scene at, these people wondering what is about? a second great awakening led me to another fascinating character the noted swedish scientists, a man widely thought to have been perhaps the greatest mind of

18th century europe and undeniably the transforming music john chapman's life. i suspect and in fact i know many of you know as much or far more about swedenborg than i do, so i will spare you my ignorance on the subject. the story of swedenborg himself told about his ration from scientists to music is so rich that i can't resist retelling it. maybe this is well-known so i apologize for repeating the story. he was having dinner by himself in the evening at the london chophouse, 1745. when the room suddenly went dark and the floor of began rising the snakes. swedenborg looked out to the corner of the room and saw an old man sitting there and the old man offered him four words. don't eat so much. then disappeared as the room return to life. later that night the same man reappeared in swedenborg's

dreams and identified himself as god and began to reveal the hidden truths of the bible. that is what happened time and again in the course of writing this book. something unique was around every corner. that finally gets me to the mythic character of johnny appleseed himself and the final mystery about john chapman. the book is subtitled the man, the myth back the american story because i hope i adequately show that the myth of johnny appleseed keeps getting reinvented generation by generation. in the late 1800's and early 1900's he was assembled of an american innocence, time to for civil war had ravaged the land, before native americans have been driven to dismal reservations and westerberg expansionist swept away this eden this country had once been. two decades later after a women's temperance union, johnny reemerged a spokesman for the health properties that the

inebriating ones of america's favorite for it. in mid-1900's as we have seen the disney studio turned johnny into a sermon on brotherly love and unselfishness. advertisements and 1950s and 1960s praises financial shrewdness. at the enough since his real finances were a complete mess. by the mid-1970s so-called johnny appleseed's were traipsing around the countryside sowing seeds in expectation of it you -- new utopia. the phrase johnny appleseed and the pot will get you something like 10,000 hits on google. and so this constant reinvention continues into our own time in a distinctly modern interest in scaling back going local and preserving and conserving this wonderful creation we have been handed. two centuries before there was a simplicity movement john chapman had a greater lifestyle that simplicity itself. a level of consumption that

would drive the national economy back to a barter system. snuff, the occasional tool a rare tavern mail, the swedenborg looks. that was all the earths resources he seems to have needed and the books he recycled did fairly well. johnny didn't barely live lightly on the land, he barely touched it even though he walked to constantly. and when we find ourselves place just right it will be in the valley of love and delight. could there be a better 42 word summary of john chapman's life? long before all but a handful of people realize what a fragile creation this earth is chapman and appleseed were there too cobbling nature is if as if she were newborn baby. that may be the greatest gift of both to our own time. john chapman had scripture urging not just the bible but swedenborg. all things in the world exist excess from a divine origin

closed with forms of nature has enabled them to exist and perfect their use and correspond to higher things. however came to be by god's hand or nothing more than a cosmic accident and whatever label one comes with a challenge, creation and evangelical environmentalism, secular rain planetary survival is this globe of ours does need someone to show us how to love a better and johnny apple side is waiting out there even now at that razor thin line between present and future, men and myth, the real and imagined ready to lead the way. a lot of factors propelled chapman into appleseed. the natures, the natural tendency to exaggerate a good story, the times, the fact that so few threats help man to the real world but i also think that john chapman played -- is dawned on me as i was working on a booa

central role and the transformation. elect to tell stories about himself and about his escapes come estimating feats of stamina. since he was his own wandering minstrel but while he talks a lot about many subjects especially foreign essential loner the one thing john chapman almost never talk about where the actual details of his life. he was well-known in ft. wayne when he died in march of 1845. it been living in and around the place for more than a decade and married a nice 300 plus word obituary. how old he might've been, the obituary writer had no clear and no clue to where he had been born or where he lived before coming to indiana except a vague sense that it was somewhere in ohio. in fact i think his obituary says he is -- he lived in the area of cleveland and while chapman could reasonably associate with a 16 or 18 different towns in ohio, cleveland is not one of them. that is how it was all the way along the john chapman. people were called as heroic

feats, marathon marathon mike brown to the knight forest. they remembered legendary acts of kindness, few bits of clothing to pioneers even worse off than he was. the new massive virtual miss a virtual st., john the baptist, of the wilderness. but about the essential man they knew almost nothing. is his if john chapman had been reversing for the part of johnny appleseed along. now if i might i would like to read a short epilogue of which i close the book and i promise i won't spoil the story. won't take too long either. the epilogue is called, my johnny. a close friend, lawyer with a heart had a vision of john chapman building and planting his seeds and twirling the whole night long and ranchers concorde with whatever he could see it as universal divine. i can see that.

chapman appleseed whatever you call him right about swedenborg swedenborg. god talk to him through every leaf, every rock and every beast big and small and every creation johnny's famous loneliness might underpin so lonely after all as william dean howells once wrote, quote if this belief was true and we are in this world surrounded i spirits, evil or good, which are evil or good behavior and likes her company then are most harmless loving have crazy man walked daily with angels of god. i can also see henry david thoreau in chapman living deliberately in nature. indeed at the very moment john chapman lay dying in william morse cabin in fort worth digging the foundation for his famous celebrated -- but for all his intellectual independence thoreau never hit cut the lifeline.

he was within easy walking distance within the worldview that is now. even as he was rhapsodizing life in the woods thoreau was caring laundry home to his mother. not chapman. from his early 20s on and make it before he had no tether last. in an article from the december 1979 american heritage magazine edward hoagland suggested chapman had left a diary behind. he might be compared to john james audubon or george catton and the great indian portraitist. i like that. certainly diary would not have been relentless can treat of the industrial revolution. chapman lived his critique the nature levin gave himself over to vibrated through his entire being like walt wittman. years ago i spent a long night with the washington d.c. emergency psychiatric response team, heroic men and women attending to the certifiably insane who have been answered

lush -- institutionalized. most of those they treated that night were living in the city's parks often short walks from the capitol or the white house. these were women convinced they were men who'd been by demons. men essentially baying at the moment. one man told me that when he walked down the street and saw the stars overhead he was convinced each star was part of an intergalactic space fleet that was looking to him for direction. if i turn right they will turn right, if i turn left they will turn left. what if i turn the wrong way he said to me? we found them paralyzed in the middle of the intersection. the sky was filled with stars. i can't help but recall those people want to think of johnny appleseed. they were just roughly the same in odd bits of cast off clothing sometimes with meaning. they smelled horribly like john chapman probably did. their brains were on fire and occasionally their eyes glowed as they talked as his was said to. by monarch definitions john chapman almost certain he was insane.

as the old adage goes if you talk to god in prayer, if god talks to you at a schizophrenia. [laughter] i think the woods that surround the office where i've written this book of how light shines through the trees and what a simple joy it is to turn away from these words and walk among the walnuts and buckthorn deadweight eon my windows beckoning me to join them. there is a pleasure in the pathos woods lord byron wrote. there is a society where none intrudes and so it surely was for john chapman in this busy world to walk those woods and feel the sunlight on your skin to shine and resemble. that is johnny appleseed to me. and that is what i have to say and i would be glad to take any questions anyone has. i think there will be some. i am going to throughout the first question. i've been somewhat criticized in printing on this medium and i perhaps rightly so for

suggesting you is almost certainly insane. does that strike those of you who know the story as almost as well as i do as completely over-the-top? does anyone want to venture an opinion on that? yes? >> i think that the impression that we have of john is probably a lot like a lot of people in our lives that aren't of the norm and at the same time operate in society. not certifiably insane but maybe instead just someone who operates differently. may be an artistic ers and. >> that might've been the wrong word. that might've been the real problem. is a word that i threw around to catch that perhaps. now it is in print, 12,500

copies. what am i going to do? [laughter] questions? we have a mic over here. who would like to start out with a question? >> i have also been studying john for probably twice as long as you did and i have just been fascinated that you seem to have found twice as much information that i haven't had as much time that you are dedicating yourself to. i was curious how many churches you make the american you make and how may places did you go? this is nonfiction and you needed to do research into things that are not that well-known and i'm curious how he did that? >> a funny story. as i said earlier this book started in 1989 when a friend said to make you know you want to write a biography of johnny appleseed, john chapman. i thought i hadn't done anything about the one i started going through my files i had old things ought that i pulled a

lexisnexis on, those old tractor pulls, horrible equipment. i had -- in terms of the actual writing, the actual writing was only 14 or 15 months and the research was double that i would say. i had sort of a back log of materials. i've been saving string along. where i went basically everywhere that he was known to be, except that creek he mentioned. i think i missed somebody's creek. and arthur pointed me to some of these places but you have to get on the ground in to see these places from the ground. i thought what is the big deal about walking across the alleghenies? driving across the alleghenies in the pennsylvania turnpike for years. you get out and start your car and you look at the etching usa oh, just think about all this.

that was part of it, and then frankly google has made life so much easier. every county in ohio, think i can safely say and indiana, has a history of the county between 1855 and 1880, often two or three. google has digitized all these histories and i thought when i started doing this i would be spending months at the library of congress, which for me is about a 65 minute -- 65-mile drive -- drive. you have to take the metro to the library of congress and wait 45 minutes at a bare minimum while they get your books and bring them back up. for months of my life i disappeared to the library of congress. is a beautiful place by the way and if you have never been there please go. is digitize and if you find a book you want to press a button and it is on demand printing. arthur whole birds, arthur davit

folly and come 11 blame history of transportation in america that you can just -- it is magnificent stuff and for 15 bucks it shows up by at your door five days later. pretty amazing stuff. anyone else? i think you have a microphone coming your way. >> i wondered if in your exploration of material available, like the murdoch records here and other places you have been, to 2 cents there is much else that has not been discovered that some other writer might come along and decide to wonder what else is new that we haven't known about john chapman that is yet to be discovered and written about? >> i think there definitely is. for example, one of the things i

was hoping so much, i think there is a chance that he was baptized by william hargrove, the famous new church in baltimore new church preacher and brownsville pennsylvania and 1806 or 1807. i can't remember which year. 1806, pay. a baptism to place and brownsville in the river, and there were 30 or 40 people, so it turns out hargrove's papers are in erie at the frank something something, the state historical society in baltimore, and i go there and i open up his journals and it has 1806. the reference was -- i looked in the back, john chapman in the page number corresponded exactly to 1806. i knew he had recorded the names of all those he baptized.

this was john something chapman who live somewhere else. there are john chapman's all over the place. part of the problem is chapman's name each other's john and nathaniel. drive you crazy and all the females are elizabeth. you see it all over the place. but that named -- then i had a cup of coffee two months ago. kevin baxter who graduated from this institution. kevin said you know that could be a repository monterey california and by then it was too late for me to find it. i think that library people have done a spectacular job that there is more. i mean, look at the letter that elizabeth chapman wrote to her husband on her deathbed essentially in 1776, may of

1776. spec to your letter that didn't come -- that laid in trucks for 150 odd years. there are letters lying to and trucks around here not maybe by chapman but by those who knew him. and somewhere in the mile williams manuscript in the milo ansett -- manuscript is a motherload for those who want to pursue it. you have got to find it. i couldn't. i just couldn't find it. anyone else? >> john was known as a storyteller. well-wisher favorite story to include it the bible -- or, board, not the bible. [laughter] in the book? >> the favorite story? he told it but others told it to, the story of the mansfield to mount vernon run. do you know that one? the year is 1812.

the indians are -- the war of 1812. the tribes of ohio are making common cause with the british. there is an event that takes place, a horrible event that takes place in mansfield actually. they are rounding up green tree indium to send them to this very place right here, green town to march into urbana so they will be out of the british influence so they can't really sign up for the cause. they march them two miles away and they interthem. they burned their village. one girl, 12 years old i think she is, happens to be visiting from another tribe. her father comes to take her away and they shoot the father. they them and scalp them. the soldiers are drinking whiskey out of the scalp. it is a scene dionne description terms of horror and of course

they were avenging, and attends an event cycle. so work comes the indians are on the warpath. meanwhile, the american, the garrison of soldiers and mob vernon had sent their choose to march these green town indians to urbana. there is not enough protection so they have this meeting, and i have to find us in the book. they have this meeting and somebody has to go warn the people in mount vernon. this clear-eyed man bravely steps forward and says i will do it. he runs presumably through the night and stopping it all the taverns along the way. that may see if i can find his real quickly. it is wonderful. he said one of two things while he was doing this and if i can find is quickly enough, which i probably can't -- rats.

give me just one second. here it is, here it is. yes, so he runs -- he leaves mansfield about 6:00 at night and it is getting dark. he runs through the dark all the way to mount vernon, which happens to be almost exactly 26 miles. by a miracle, the marathon for liberties and the plains of marathon. then he might different back again. some accounts have him running back again. he told the stories himself. what was wonderful, there were two different memories of what he said. he would stop at every cabin and one of the pioneer pioneer sons remembers him screaming, fly for your lives.

the indians are murdering and scalping in mansfield. the other pioneer remembered him calling out this message. the spirit of the lord is upon me and appointed me to blow the trumpet in the wilderness and sound an alarm in the forest for the hold the tribes of the heathen or around the doors devouring -- imagine saying that after running 15 miles. and apparently he said it time and again. he didn't say on the way back. could he have done it? in fact alter marathoners to run 52 miles in six hours. he is 11 hours. nobody knew the woods better than he did. he was 38 years old at the time i believe and in excellent physical condition. with all the stories there is a possibility that something is true about them. another one elect to tell is he escaped indians by pulling his canoe onto an ice floe on allegheny river. he was so relaxed he fell asleep

in the canoe and 100 miles down the river he comes back up. he told that story a lot. so that is why as i was doing this it came upon me more and war that there is a certain move complicity in the myth and i don't know but i speculate in the book that well, how do i put it? in order for the myth to be borne the man had to die in a way. and there was nothing holding him to it. he had his father -- his father died two years after he moved to ohio but his stepmother and a bunch of half brothers and sisters were living only 80 miles away north of marietta near what is dexter city i think that is 80 miles which was an action and stroll for johnny appleseed. while they have all these histories, there's a wonderful

history of washington county world is to face. there is no mention of john chapman. everybody else appears in it, which leads me to believe he never went back to visit his family. socom i don't know when it was. there are a bunch of possible reasons for that. anyone else, please? i could drone on for hours. sally, yes please. >> i was kind of curious, did anybody ever do any studies as far as he spent a lot of time with quakers, and so sweet board can find that connection but i was curious if any quakers are anybody has ever not claimed him as one of their own but just as in a sense part of their community and a sense because he diwi