i'm a pretty cynical guy and i wake up every day and that's what i'm trying to do. >> host: it's my pleasure and my honor that you wrote this book and i got a chance to read, to be empowered by and to be charged my battery and energized. i talk about this book wherever i go. i encourage people to read it. because, you know, you're speaking for me and so many other people in the world that can relate to what you've said and you've become a clarion call for everybody. thank you for writing this book and we really wish you much success in all your ever denies. thank you, c-span, i'm armstrong williams with andrew breitbart. ..

>> welcome. my name is joe b. thacker, but the johnny appleseed society in urbana, ohio. we are located for this program in the johnny appleseed education center and museum and historic daily hall here at the university. we are here to listen to howard means talk about his brand-new book. this is his 10th book in its written a biography of johnny appleseed or john chapman and is here to tell us all about the book. the book is "johnny appleseed," the man, that's an american story. so i welcome howard. [applause]

>> thank you, thank you very much. my book was published only five days ago and since then i've done taping sessions with some of the nationally syndicated radio shows. this is the first live event for "johnny appleseed" and it couldn't have been in a more appropriate. not only because we are in the newly renovated johnny appleseed center, joe dusek was one of the first people i contacted after simon and schuster agree to publish the book here before it written a word of it and show has been atrophic hope from day one, one of the johnny appleseed society arthur humphrey come if you don't know who he is, has done wonderful research in the research on chapmans interruption to emanuel swedenborg at church of the new jerusalem and also gave freely of his time and knowledge once i was able to latch onto him. i say let's although might be

more a bloodsucking parasite. he was very generous with his time and knowledge. and while i digress at the beginning, i should also add one of the problems they face in this book from the beginning was when to refer to title character as john chapman and which refer to them as johnny appleseed. in general, chapman refers to the historical figure i'll appleseed to the myth that he became. the two were so intertwined that the distinction gets misty and sometimes a little worse than misty i'm afraid. that is generally what i'm trained to hold to hear in these comments. back to where we are -- urbana the city and the danube university, and so if you know actually are bursting with chapman appleseed's connections. urbina was very chapman met with attorney john chance to discuss possible legal proceedings concerning one of his orchards. one of the very where moments when the historical figure stepped out from behind the curtain and lets us have a good look at him.

for the record, chapman paced the room only to tincher doneness. john janus for his part went to this college grows in 1850 is the only sweden affiliated college best of the alleghenies, a dream -- both lament of a dream long held by john chapman. the first president of the college, my williams, was well acquainted with chapman, shared many common interests with him and reportedly committed to paper would almost certainly would've been the most lengthy and illuminated manuscript -- i'm sorry, portrait of chapman by any contemporary and that script has gone missing in so many things have gone missing. there's so many tempting moments that you just can't quite find the document and maybe i'll have the documents in your home and if so, let me know. the johnny appleseed complex, where we're meeting today is located in the combined bailey barclay hall named by francis

bailey come the philadelphia premiere considered the father of the new church in america and for bailey's word for master barkley, sister-in-law to john young who are thracian very convincingly almost certainly gave johnny appleseed dispersed east and swedenborg. the place calls with connections, direct and indirect. for indirect. prometheus, perhaps most rewarding of them all is the fact this museum happens to be the repository of the papers of florence murdoch, the longtime secretary of the new church library in cincinnati. because it was in those papers i was able to trace the history of how johnny appleseed happened to make his film debut. the story begins with december 1944 letter to murdoch from a laboring at the indiana historical society. the labor and wanted to let murdoch know the two studios, mgm and disney have been asking around about johnny appleseed. of the two, labrie clearly prefer disney take on the job, but she wasn't 100% certain. i only trust they did not do

something peculiar and horrible, movies so often do. three and a half years later the movie scrapped in disney's animated version of johnny appleseed's wife headed to theaters nationwide to murdoch was convinced something peculiar and horrible was exactly what the walt disney studio had done. on may 261948 come in the day before the cartoon classic melody time was released, murdoch wrote walt disney to correct the error of his ways. her letter begins on a high now, but murdoch praised the studio for celebrating johnny's blessing street, love and faith in an apple tree. but then the tone grows more heated. publicity for the movie had shown donnie on greatness by a sourpuss affirmation enniskillen can tap, johnny's guardian angel and from her doctor was way too fast and loose with the spirit world was central to the division.

the advertisements we have seen indicate the subject is treated in a relatively conservative manner except for the extraordinarily grotesque guardian angel, we are curious by what process of reasoning your city arrived at the strange conception. what to do? murdock at several exceptions. is it too late to make a change perhaps substituting the figure of a child with a traditional angel would seem out of place or if that is impossible could not the name be changed guardian angel to perhaps spirit of the frontier? let me digress once again. has anybody here ever met florence murdoch? in the course of doing this, i've got this vision of one of the dar types, sort of feeling forward about this hike on the very buxom in a dar woman always were completely blue dresses and made a. at any rate, it started stuck in

my mind the way. in any event, disney never replied in the second corrections murdoch requested was never made a mess just as well because that is guardian angel, and disney's "johnny appleseed" would never have the cushion to leave his farm near pittsburgh much less the ohio river in the northwest territory. a hostile environment and cut the muscle of the breath or chest, ludicrous on the face of it to join the pioneer. having last. worst based on even a hint of the intellectual depth and intensity that john chapman would've needed to wrestle his way into swedenborg's truth as

he obviously did. but that's hollywood. my 5-year-old grandson adored the cartoon as fibrils have been doing now for six decades, more than six decades. and what's more is the disney studio took the appleseed myth and push it over the top. the storyline was already headed that way and studio executives were more than prepared to defend their work. in a lengthy response to florence murdoch dated june 23, 1948 and on the wall behind me one of the wonderful treasures of this museum how it oquist comanager disney apartment explained how the animated film and particularly johnny's guardian angel came to be. johnny it oquist was a simple and unassuming man. he believed his mission of planting trees in the wilderness to inspired and firmly believed in a direct physical manifestation of heavenly beings upon the earth and thus it would seem to follow in oquist with

the johnny's divine interpretation might well take the form of a frontier angel. but it oquist didn't stop there. we believe, he concluded, that the johnny appleseed story, though presented with a certain whimsical humor is the nearest approach to a sermon on the subject of brotherly love and unselfishness ever attended in our medium of entertainment. i can't disagree with that. the cartoon is exactly what it oquist described, a sweet sentiment on brotherly love but this happens a lot of sermons to the man on whom it is built disappears completely almost in the treat being manifested. and that's for this but began because it's where i began. i was one of those fat girls who first learned about johnny appleseed from the walt disney cartoon treatment and this is the johnny appleseed i still knew back in 1989, long after his figures hold when a friend for a suggested they take on this project. as nearly two dozen years between now and then might

suggest, i didn't exactly jump at the idea. but there were a ted purdy and why take on a biography of such a known quantity? i didn't about the prospect often on nsa did the story got richer and richer until i guess they so compelled to jump into it. first of all the obvious discrepancy between john chapman and johnny appleseed, the man in the mess. robert price is paper hopes will soon be part of the archive and learning center the price to tackle the subject masterfully half a century earlier i think i've been able to write that story. that's in large part the legacy it is basically all of alliterative john chapman from memory. thanks to a friend i was able to do some polling for this book. only 40% of americans thought johnny appleseed ever existed,

he had any historical antecedent and fewer than one in four americans could identify the right half-century in which he had done his planning in the right part of the country in the two states were spent most of his adult life. i also did some informal asking around, very well-educated friends of mine. who is john chapman out of gas? that he would answer come he's a guy that murdered john lennon. [laughter] i was mark david chapman. in the end, i concluded in a citizen about, johnny appleseed might be the best-known american about whom most americans know almost nothing really all and i should add also that thanks to john zogby and zogby international, all of the polling data, including pages and pages of democratic -- demographic breakdowns is now in the position of cesium and education center, which is exactly where it belongs. there is also the sheer mystery of the best i've tried to think about doing this book thanks to

a whole host of researchers, including the other indomitable florence, florence wheeler who finally nailed down the chapman genealogy. we have these tantalizing hints of john chapman. we know where and when he was born. we know more or less when he died on the wiki's can certainly be made that whoever is interred at the chapman appleseed gravesite in fort wayne is not john chapman. we are promissory notes and apple orders in his hand. we even have the wonderful trading post ledger back in warren, pennsylvania that shows chapman purchased two small histories shortly after crossing the alleghenies with his brother, daniel in nearly 1797. histories of what? priest royalty? ancient rome? ancient greece? it would be fascinating to know. there is no way to no one for showing. trying to penetrate the mystery needed almost irresistible as date, let's be honest, the sheer weirdness of its principal

character. the mid-19th century historian ohio college have been the oddest dirt in our history and he was certainly every bit of that. i read in my book that he had the eye of a speculator, heart of a philanthropist, the courage of the frontiersman in wondering instincts of a nomad. in fact, and on the self canceling nature. he wanted them but could never settle down on it. you were in a far-flung tertiary as hard as anyone could and then gave away half his stack in a fair percentage of his thin profits. but here is the larger point. the 19th -- early 19th century ohio is filled with characters from the pioneers who built homes and trees, famous scholars and legendary boozers, a rogue gallery of eccentrics and what really struck me was among all these people, chapmans eccentricities stood us as if he'd been painted neon purple. everyone knew him.

one realize what a singular person can't even a crackpot and was among the most beloved people in the frontier. that line of exploration in turn got me to the context of the times and not for the story really deep in for me. how westward expansion had become dammed up in the ohio river appeared beside the northwest territory was a huge real estate event waiting to happen when chapman arrived on the shores of the river at the end of the 18th century. the way the second great awakening thought overall it does with meanings meanings that grew 10 and 20,000 people had not evolved as many as two dozen preachers her rainbow coalition observers splintering reforming christian denominations. john chapman lives and often lonely life deep in the woods, but was also an integral part of all these forces swirling around him as a nursery men, real estate speculators and evangelists in the off year election of 1806 and settlers in

and around al creek, today's mount vernon got to go for the first time. john chapman was among the 15 eligible males who cast their ballots through a triumph democracy. wherever this polling place was. the second great awakening led me to another fascinating character, almost last in modern memory, emanuel swedenborg, the notice sweeter scientists can a man widely thought to have been the greatest mind of 18th century europe, and undeniably the transfer me news of john chapman's life. i suspect -- in fact i know many of you here in this town and school with which new church roots know as much or far more than i do so i'll spare you my ignorance in the subject. the story swedenborg and so told about from scientists is so rich i can resist retailing it. maybe this is well known and so i apologize for repeating a

story everybody knows. he was having dinner by himself at a london chophouse in 1745 when the room suddenly went dark in the floor began to racing with snakes. swedenborg writes a liftoff to the corner of the room and and sitting there in the old man offered in four words that started like tony so much been disappeared as the room returned to life. later that night the seemingly appeared in his dreams come identified himself as god, began revealing hidden truth of the bible. who can resist a story like that? that is what happened time and again in writing this book is something unique was around every corner. and that finally gets me to the mythic character, johnny appleseed himself in the final mystery about john and. the book is subtitled the man, the myth, the american story because i hope i adequately show that the myth of johnny appleseed keeps getting reinvented generation by

generation. in the late 1800s and early 1900s, he was a symbol of american innocence come a time before civil war had ravaged the land, before native americans had been driven into dismal reservations and westward expansion swept away the supposed ease of this country had been. two decades later, after the christian temperance union siege to her insider, johnny reemerged as a spokesman for the properties, not inebriate amongst america's favorite fruit. in the mid-1900s as we've seen the studio turned john aintree sermon on brotherly love and selfishness. advertisements the 1950s and 1960s praises financial shrewdness. oddly enough since israel finances were in a complete mess. by the mid-1970s, so called johnny appleseed the pot were blithely or otherwise traipsing around the countryside selling seeds and expectations of the new utopia stoned. in fact, frees johnny appleseed

will still get to something like 10,000 hits on google. amazingly enough. and so, this reinvention continues in zero modern interest in scaling back going local in preserving and conserving this creation we have been handed. two centuries before the simplicity movement, john chapman had created a lifestyle that was simplicity itself. their level of consumption that would drive the national economy back to a barter system avoid the test snuff, the occasional tool can be recovered mail or night under rigid roof, swedenborg books. that was all bearse resources he seems to have needed and the books he recycled to fare the well. johnny didn't merely with lately in the land. he barely touched it even though he walked it constantly. they get to be simple, get to be free, japan then we ought to be come the shaker hymn goes. when we find ourselves in the

place just right, they will be in the valley of love and delay. could there be a better 42 word summary of john chapman's life quite long before all but a handful of people realize what a fragile creationist circus, chapman and appleseed were there, too, cuddly nature as if she were a newborn baby. that may be the greatest gift to both our own time. john chapman is pressure urging him in the bible, but swedenborg. all things in the lenox instrument divine origin, close to such forms in nature has enabled them to exist there in perfect unison chorus i'm tired of things. however it came to be, by god's hand are nothing more than a cosmic accident and whatever label one comes to the challenge, creation care come evangelical environmentalism, secular cream, planetary survey list, this globe of ours does need someone to show us how to love it better and as he always was and might come a johnny appleseed is waiting out there even now at the razor thin line between present and future, men

admit, real and imagined, ready to lead the way. a lot of factors propelled chapman and appleseed the man in the myth. the new church, natural tendency to exaggerate it story, times, the fact so few threads held the man to the railroad. but i also think john chapman -- this time as me in the that john chapman and so played a central role in the transformation. he liked to tell stories about himself, about his escapes, amazing feats of stamina in the sense he was his own wondering stroll. while he talked a lot about many subjects, for an essential loner, but one thing john chapman almost never talked about are the actual details of his life. he was well-known for rain when he died there in march of 1845. he'd been living in and around the pleas for more than a decade and married in a 300 plus word obituary. asked about a minute then come

in the obituary writer had no clue to where he had been born or where he lived before coming to indiana except a vague sense he was somewhere in ohio. in fact, the obituary says he was -- lived in the area of cleveland and while chapman can reasonably associate 16 or 18 towns in ohio, cleveland is not one of them. that's how it was all the way along with john chapman. people recalled his. a marathon run at indian leaders, their legendary acts of kindness recipes horses come a few bits of clothing to pioneers, even worse off than he was. they know that the virtual stained, kiss of the wilderness. about the essential man, they knew almost nothing. it says that john chapman had been reversing for the part of johnny appleseed along. i'd like to read a short epilogue with which i close the book and i promise i won't spoil

the story. do not take long either. the epilogue is called my johnny. a close friend, a lawyer with the studious heart has a vision of john chapman building his closures, planting the seeds, and then to read the whole night long and rapturous concorde with whatever he can see is the universal design. i can see that. chapman, appleseed, whatever you call them. contact him through every tree, every leaf, every rock, every of these great and small, every atom of creation. how could he not tauro enjoy? johnny's famous loneliness may not have been so lonely after all as william dean howells once wrote quote, it is believed was true and we are in this world surrounded by spirits, evil or good some of which are evil or good behavior with our company, then harmless, loving half crazy

man walked with the angels of god. i can also see henry david thoreau and chapman commit two children new england living deliberately in nature. indeed at the very moment william wirth's cabin in fort worth was digging the foundation for his famous cabinet. for all of his intellectual independence, he never cut the lifeline. boldin was within easy walking distance of the world you do with a. even if he was rhapsodizing on life in the west, he was still carrying laundry home to his mother. not so chapman. from her early 20s on, yet no tether last. in an article for the december december 1927 that heritage magazine come he might be compared to john calvin, and the the great indian portraitist. i like that.

certainly a story would not have been with the rosaries work on a relentless critique of the industrial revolution. chapman lifted critique of the nature you love to give himself over to vibrated through his entire being, like walt whitman chatman sing the body electric. years ago i spent a long night with the washington d.c. emergency psychiatric response team. iraq men and women tending to the certifiably insane who had been de-institutionalized for area hospitals. most of those they treat them it for the city's parks often short walk from the capital of the white house. the assortment convinced they were men who had been by demons. then essentially been at the moon. one man told me when he walked down the street and saw the stars overhead he was convinced each was part of a galactic space fleet that was looking to him for direction. if i turn right, they'll turn right cared if i turn left, they'll turn left. what if i turn the wrong way he said to be paired with an imperialist in the middle of the

intersection the sky filled with stars. i can't help but recall those people when i think of johnny appleseed. they were dressed roughly the same and not just the cast of clothing sometimes with telephonic meeting. they spelled horribly as john chapman probably did. voices explode in their heads, brains on fire can occasionally i is almost good as they talk for server-side do. their modern definition, john chapman almost certainly was insane at the old adage goes, if you talk to god expert. contact steve, schizophrenia. i think the office wavered much of this book at how light shines for the truth of what a simple joy is to turn away from these birds walk among the walnuts of locusts and hawthorns to wait beyond the windows, beckoning me to join them. there is a pleasure in the path lis was lord byron wrote in charlotte harrell. society none intrudes. and so it surely was for john

chapman to go easy in this busy world, to whack those pathless words and feel that dappled sunlight on your skin, to shine in the simple. that's johnny appleseed to me. and that is what i have to say. i decide to take any questions anyone has any think there will be some. i'm going to throw out the first question because i've been somewhat criticized in print and on media and perhaps rightly so for suggesting he was almost certainly insane. does that strike those of you who know the story is almost as well as i do is completely over the top? would anyone want to venture an opinion on that? yes. [inaudible] >> -- and i think that the impression that we have of john is probably a lot like a lot of people in our lives that aren't

the norm, arturo typical but at the same time operate in society and certifiably phase, but maybe just someone who operates differently for not just at person. >> it might've been the ron word. it's a word that i threw around too casually, perhaps. and now it's in print and 12,500 copies. but am i going to do? live with it i think. questions. we had a makeover here. would like to start up the question? >> i also have been studying john for twice as long as you did and i am just fascinated that you seem to have found twice as much information that i have been half as much time the jury dedicating yourself fully to. i'm curious how many troops did you make like so many places did you go? how many years did you devote?

this is nonfiction and you need to do research into things that are not that well-known. i'm just curious how you did that. >> funny story. as i said earlier, this book started in 1989 when a friend said to me, you have to read a biography of johnny appleseed, john chapman. and i thought he hadn't done anything about it. when a cynical enter my files, i don't think i pulled off lexis-nexis on, those old tractor pull printers nothings who do on the side, horrible equipment. so in terms, the actual writing -- the actual writing is probably 14 or 15 months. the research was done without i'd say. i had a a backlog of material i've been saving string all along. and where i went, basically everywhere he was known to be, except that creek you mentioned.

i think i missed some of these creeks. arthur pointed me to some of these places. who in you have to wait 45

minutes at a bare minimum by vacate your books and burn them out. and for the first month of my life i disappeared and the library of congress. a beautiful place if you've never been there, please go. it's digitized. if you find about you lot, press the button and its on-demand printing. arthur holford's. one is david arthur holberg has this eight volume, love and flame history of in america. it's magnificent staffing for 15 bucks it shows up at your door five days later. pretty amazing stuff. anyone else? please. ratepayer. think you've got a microphone coming your way.

>> i wondered if in your exploration of material available, like the murdoch records here and other places you've been, did you sense there is much else that has not been discovered that some other writer may come along and say, and wonder what else is new and i haven't done about john chapman is yet to be discovered in britain about? >> i think there definitely is. for example, one of the things i was hoping -- i think there is a chance that he was baptized by william hargrove, a famous baltimore new church preacher in brownsville, pennsylvania in 1806 of 1807. i can't remember which year. 1806, kind of a mass baptism took place in the modern mongolia river and there were or 40 people. they are in theory at the frank

something something, the state historical society of baltimore, maryland state historical society. i go there and open up his journals and it has 1806. the reference was on the back john chapman in the page number corresponded exactly to 1806. i knew he recorded the names of all those he baptized. well, this is john something chapman who live somewhere else. for john chapman's all over the place. part of the problem with chapman kept naming themselves. it trades you crazy amount of females are elizabeth selig at place. but then i had a cup of coffee two months ago. kevin baxter, who graduated this institution and kevin sendak could be a repository in

monterey, california and by then it is too late for me to find it. but i think the grenades and library people did a spectacular job. but you know, there's more. i mean, look at the letter to elizabeth chapman wrote to her has been on her desk that essentially in 1776, may of 1776. a spectacular letter that read in chunks for 150 odd years. as a pair of letters claiming trunks around here not maybe by chapman that only keep giving a lot to paper by john chapman, but those who knew him. in summer as the milo williams manuscript and the milo williams manuscript is a mother lode for those who want to pursue this. i couldn't have. i just couldn't find it.

anyone else? yeah, please. >> john was known as a storyteller. was your favorite story you quoted in the bible? i guess it all ties in. >> the favorite story? well, he's told it, but others told it to as the mansfield to mount vernon run. do you know that one? the years 1812. the war of 1812, the tribes of ohio are making common cause with the british for everybody thinks. there is an event that takes place -- a horrible event that takes place in mansfield. they are rounding up greentree indians to send them to this very place right here, greenspan indians, to send them to urbana to march so they'll be out of the british influence that they can't really, you know, sign

them up for the cause. they march two miles away and inter them and burned their village. one girl, 12 years old, i think she happens to be visiting from another tribe. her father comes to take her away. they shoot the father, behead him, scalp him. soldiers are drinking whiskey out of a scope. it is a scene beyond description in terms of horror. and of course they were avenging, the revenge cycle. so, word comes in meanwhile the american -- the garrison of soldiers and mount vernon have sent their troops to march the screen 10 indians to urbana. so there's not enough protection of these indians are on the warpath, so they have this meeting. i have to find this in the book. they have this meeting somebody has to wonder people and mount

vernon. and this great man greatly steps forward and says i'll do it. so he runs presumably through the night and stopping at all the cabins along the way. a major see if i can find this real quickly if it's a wonderful -- he said one of two things while he was doing this. if i can find this quickly enough, which i probably can't. rat. give me just one second. this is bad airtime. here it is. so he runs -- okay, he leaves mansfield about 6:00 at night in gathering the darker he rents the all the way to mount vernon, which happens to be a most

exactly 26 miles by a miracle, exactly the marathon in the plains of marathon. many nine to five back again. and he told the stories himself. he didn't mind telling these stories. there were two different memories of what he said. when pioneer sun remembered and screaming fight, fight for your lives. the mints are murdering, scalp in mansfield. not bad. the other pioneer remembered him calling this message. the spirit of the lord has a trumpet in the wilderness and song for behold the tribes are round about your doors and divine flames followed after them. imagine saying that after running 15 miles. apparently he's at a time and again. he didn't have to say in the way that. could he have done it?

marathoners have earned 52 miles in six hours. he had 11 hours. no wonder that was better than he did. he's in excellent physical condition. above these stories, there is the possibility something is true about them. another when he would like to tell if he escaped indians by pulling his cameo in an ice flow. in the next you knew he was so relaxed he fell asleep in a hundred miles down river he finally pushed the canoe off and came back up. he told that story a lot. as i was doing this, he came upon me more and more. there's a certain complicity in the minutes and i don't know. i speculate in the book that well, how do i put it? in order for them is to be born, but it had to die in a way.

there is nothing holding him. he had his father -- his father day after he moved to ohio, but his stepmother and half brothers and sisters were living to 80 miles away north of marietta in the duck creek settlement next to what is now dexter city. 80 miles was an afternoon stroll for johnny appleseed. while the handle these histories, there's a wonderful history of washington county were officer placed. no mention of john chapman. everybody else appears to me, which leads me to believe he never went back to visit his family. so i don't know what it was. there's a bunch of possible reasons for that. anyone else please, ask up. turn on for hours. sally, yes please. >> i was kind of curious, did

anybody ever do studies as far as he spent a lot of time with quakers and so, you know, being sweet and i can find has anyone ever not claim them as one of his own, but in a sense part of their community in a sense because they say with people a lot. >> there is a story somewhere. now, that was a universal who got very mad at him and threw this book down. i know the quakers wind in and out of the story but now, i don't. i never saw evidence of that. i just opened this up. that was a wonderful part about writing this but. every time you turn over a coming-of-age story to be told.

there's all these persons were talking about earlier that leonie baldwin and connections johna chapman's -- john chapman's mother first cousin discount preferred and the fascinating characters are likely to find, sort of a amoral benjamin franklin, an absolute genius who is always was a complete rate. but, you know, ended up cutting pages and pages edited manuscript because i get so fascinated by these people anyone else? yeah. >> is there any mention this

book about make sure there is a viable state on the foot about not killing mosquitoes around the campfire? been absolutely. thanks for mentioning that. we have this hindu ascetic quality to them. these are stories they should have mentioned some of these. the famous story receptor and the rattlesnake or the rattlesnake that had any tag insight into it and came back and the only recorded instance of its kind in animal and came back inside dad was devastated by what he had done. putting out the fires of mosquitoes wouldn't be undone. their sister and i missed.