linking up with the mexican drug gangs, and they're penetrating our borders. there have been members of the mexican drug gangs who have been caught with the hezbollah tattoos on their arms. but i think we, we made a big mistake in going after the wrong catalyst as to what's causing a good 90% of the problems today, and that is iran. and if you look at what iran's doing today without a nuclear weapon, just think what they're going to do once they do get it. ..

>> it went on for six or seven years. there's no end to a. i went to visit a hospital that they had for the vietnamese army, and it was hot, in the summer. had no air-conditioning so the soldiers are dressed in boxer shorts, barefoot, waste a. i stopped at this one, and you could see that he had been wounded three or four times, badly wounded. so i asked him what he wanted to do, and he said, he had been in the army for five years and he'd been wounded for six or seven times, and all he wanted to do was get back to his unit.

it was such a long war and they could stay in there and fight on both sides. the point from the south, they had the same strong feelings down there. it's amazing to me they're getting together because there's a time the south vietnamese really did not like the north. and i'm glad they are getting together. i think time heals everything. and it will do the same for the united states and our wars that we have now. >> ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for being with us today. [applause] >> is there a nonfiction author or book you would like to see featured on booktv? send us an e-mail at booktv@c-span.org. >> next on booktv jennifer griffin and greg myre appeared on c-span's "washington journal" to talk about their new book "this burning land," and take

questions from viewers. his is about 45 minutes. >> we're back with husband and wife reporting team. greg myre is the senior editor at national public radio, co-author of the new book, the new book by the husband and wife team here, "this burning land: lessons from the front lines of the transformed israeli-palestinian conflict." and jennifer griffin, his wife, national correspondent at fox news channel. the co-author of this book as b well. gray, let me begin with you. let'seg start with why the israeli-palestinian conflict continues today. guest: it has been going on for six decades. tenures ago, they were close to an agreement. but they have worked backwards -- 10 years ago, they were close to an agreement. we wanted to emphasize how they dug a deeper hole for themselves. hamas is in control of gaza.

relish solomons have expanded from 100,000 to 300,000 today so. a lot of the problems have multiplied and become even larger. that is one thing we wanted to emphasize. it's a deepening of the conflict. >> this includes your personal stories. you have live there. you have raised two small children. you there from 1999 to 2007. you said that israel has a thriving economy. but they cannot solve this problem. guest: one reason we wrote this book is we felt that there is a lot of talk in washington if we could just give back to the peace process. we always hear, if we just can go back to the peace process and get the israelis and palestinians talking as they did when you talk been -- itzyak

rabin was on the scene. during the time we live there, the psychological landscape between the israelis and palestinians changed to such a degree. you need to come at the problem with a new perspective as to how both sides were changed. >> -- host: what did they not understand about the conflict that you think they should understand, given that you were on the ground? guest: the way these issues have become more difficult. the economies were very much integrated. israelis and palestinians could travel back and forth. every day, palestinians were like commuters. they would come to work in israel and go home at the end of

the day. israel is would go to the west bank. there was economic integration to a degree. the kinds of segregation and divisions have become much more permanent and locked in place. these will be hard to reverse. you just cannot go back a decade and dust off the old plan. host: when you first arrive, was it that sparked the decline t three? there? guest: the spark that unleashed a lot of built up anger and frustration that the peace process had not gone as the palestinians and israel is had hoped. there was frustration on the palestinian side. we described in the first chapter or the first deaths on the temple mount bacchant

september of 2000. it is not that that's part or cause the intifada. but we bring to in this chapter is the back start of what made him go there that day. we have interviews and stories and the back story behind what motivated him to go there that day. and then everything that unfolded from that. you have to understand those initial days. greg is fond of saying it just takes a small spark in the middle east. look at what is happening in tunis. man set himself on fire. now you have a revolution in libya. there was a human rights activist who had been arrested in those early days and that is what sparked the protests. all it takes to the middle east is a spark. our point is that you cannot ignore the israeli-palestinian conflict.

it may not be a front burner issue right now. you need to understand this conflict. host: you do need to understand what it means to both sides. do you think that is important? guest: absolute. will you have is the holiest destroyedjudea saism twice. and now you have one of the most important shrines in islam built on top of that. ariel sharon went up there to walk around. he did not go into the religious shrine. but walking around in flamed muslim passions. jews pray the western wall. that is the most explosive piece of real estate in the entire middle east. guest: you have to understand how layered it is and the proximity and also how small the place is.

we tried to paint the picture in the book. we take the leader there on that day when aerial shot walked onto the temple mount. i was there. the next day, friday prayers. jews were praying at the western wall. i did not understand that how on top of each other the mosque and worthy jews were praying. there is a beautiful picture. the last picture. it is in the old city. it shows an arab and a jewish worshiper passing each other in the old city. the above cannot see each other. they are covered. it is and amazing fatah. it symbolizes so much. walking down this narrow streets, streets that have been there since jesus walked the

same path. there faces are covered and they do not see each other. host: fast for to today. do the palestinians -- fast forward to today. this is the holiest offer the palestinians. israel might take it away. guest: absolutely. this is where diplomacy will have to comment. you have to be creative. there were notions that the mosque and the religious compound that had been there for 1300 years would remain in muslim hands. but that the ground below it be in jewish hands. talking about belowground would have one sovereign and above ground would have another sovereign. you're going to have to come up with some very creative solutions. this is the one spot for an

israeli leader to relinquish sovereignty of the holiest site .n judea's aism this is a difficult thing for any politician. host: you conducted a lot interviews while you live there. you got personal stories down to the specifics of this conflict. ,'m wondering from both of you is the end goal of statehood more important, or is the site? guest: it depends for whom you're talking about. i think what we're hearing now is interesting. in recent days, there has been talked about palestinians going for a vote about palestinian statehood. that will force israel's hand.

have shimon peres -- you have the shimon peres coming to the white house tomorrow. israel is concerned if the palestinians and go to a vote at the u.n. general assembly, that they will overnight have a state and if certain things are not discussed, that is going to put this conflict and take a turn that many israelis are concerned about. president bush was the first american president to declare that two states are two peoples was the goal of u.s. policy and that the palestinians deserve a state. that was a major step forward. we have seen so much movement. sometimes looks like the israelis and palestinians are locked in a tight race. it's been going on for ever. there is a lot going on. you need to predict what we try to do -- this is a very -- we

have to introduce you to characters on both sides of the conflict. you can actually crossed the front lines on any given day and report from both sides of the conflict on the same day. that is what we wanted to show. through the eyes of these characters that we have met, what are the issues, what drives them to fit what motivates them prove it will be the difficult issues ahead? guest: there are many good people on both sides and we profile many of them in the book who want peace. it is reason not to give up hope. tour elements that have a vested interest in keeping the conflict alive. i would point to hamas, who does not want to negotiate. this makes their argument and their cause stronger, that

israel should be destroyed. there are groups of settlers in the west bank who would like -- who believe that time is on their side. the more these settlements will become fixtures as part of connected to israel, and therefore they have a greater chance of remaining in place. host: want to move on to north africa. what impacts of those situations in libya had there? guest: the biggest impact was the change in egypt. the change -- the potential change of the government or the change of the government and the potential change of the relationship between egypt and israel and one thing in need to understand disease how nervous israel is our right now about what is going on around them, because this is a cataclysmic change we're seeing appear we

have had the same families in power in all these arab states. one interesting point is that for the first time in the history of the middle east, you're not hearing israel blamed for all the problems in the arab capitals. they are not turning around and the leaders are not able to say all their problems are because of the conflict not being solved. that is an interesting development. the situation in egypt is important for israel. there is the border between gaza and egypt. if the egyptians -- if the new egyptian government does not monitor that border, that is going to destabilize things in a serious way. i would say israelis are holding their breath as to the changes going on around them. they do not know about the regime in syria.

would be a huge change with regards to hezbollah -- that would be a huge change. all eyes right now on these other conflicts and it is not clear how the dust will settle. host: this is a headline from times."the new york what role of a plane in the middle east -- what role are they playing in the middle east? guest: it has been extraordinary what qatar has done. al jazeera has played a role in the arab world. they have the the u.s. military presence. they have decided that for many -- they have

contributed to an opening of discussion and dialogue in the arab world. it is an important thing. they have also avoided being involved in the unrest that you've seen elsewhere. host: we're talking about co- authors of this new book. we're talking about the new book and also the unrest in the middle east and northern africa. mike is a democrat. are you there? oops. i think we'll have to wait to see who else calls and. in.to see who else calls an caller: you folks are extremely knowledgeable and i appreciate your time. what i like to know and i've

been trying to find out, where is -- need the palestinians -- would need another hanan. was an excellent representative. we need her. guest: she's still very prominent in palestinian society, but less so on the international stage. she was a leading spokesperson in the 1990's. articulate, very persuasive. she was in some palestinian cabinets. have some friction with some of the other leaders and not a front-line political figure right now. but involved in developing education programs. she has a nonprofit that she runs. she still very active, but

you're not hearing her as the spokesperson. she was a powerful spokesperson. host: -- guest: she felt -- she and falling-out what the arafat regime and many of his cronies who took over afterwards. she was not in a good position with them. she would have felt the intifada did not serve the violent side -- it did not serve the larger cause. she is a woman of principle and i think she is funny she's better served working on women's issues in the palestinian area. tom, go ahead. are you with us? you are both back here in washington now. let's talk about what you're doing.

guest: i worked for fox news at the pentagon. i was in afghanistan if you weeks back. that is what we're doing. one thing we don't have a chance to talk about, the book talks about our personal life. working for two different news organizations in a tense time and also raising two small children. i gave birth to two daughters while we were living in israel. there were certain times when i would go to work with a flak jacket and a breast pump because i was nursing at the time. our girls were born in jerusalem. our second daughter was born on the eve of the iraq invasion. i checked into the hospital and they give us a certificate for a gas mask tent the babies. adults are caring around gas

masks for fear that saddam hussein would fire chemical weapons. that says so much about the psychology of the conflict. we say it is no exaggeration to say on the day they are born, israelis begin preparing for war. host: you are at npr. guest: i worked on the "addition" -- morning edition" program. host: our caller, tom, is back. caller: how is it going this morning? because of the uprising in africa, why do you think the uprising is so severe now? due to american change and status with the president and

everything? give me your notation on by the uprising there in africa and it seems to have been an uprising in the united states. guest: i believe you are referring to the north african countries that have exploded companies, libya, and egypt. something that has caught people by surprise. what you see in places that are frozen in time or the have one autocratic leader, there is not an allegory venue to practice any kind of normal politics where there are -- the views are suppressed. you can take one incident and things will explode. we mentioned this earlier with the episode in tunisia. someone was abuse by police and this touched this off. this is percolating under the

surface. as we a scene, it happened in half a dozen countries at least. guest: think also it is the advent of social media and the internet. a lot of these countries -- it was popular for these rulers and tyrants to keep their people separated from the outside world. you could keep them from knowing what was going on. that is impossible now in the age of the internet. greg mentioned the world with al jazeera in the middle east. qatar funded the station -- the satellite station that essentially was the spark for the revolution a decade ago. americans don't understand the role but al jazeera has played in the middle east. we have heard criticism of al jazeera during the early parts of the iraq invasion. there were seen as being anti- american. there were chandra -- there were challenging all the leaders.

that decade of freedom of information and speech and freedom of speech -- and freedom of the press, that was revolutionary. having access to twitter and facebook -- it was when one person said himself on fire, it was people in syria who saw what was going on and said, i want to be a part of this. this is the genie that cannot be put back into the bottle. this is the biggest change in the middle east since the end of the ottoman empire at the end of i.rld war r host: let's go to georgia on the democratic line, joan. caller: do you believe that the people of north africa and the middle east are still optimistic about how the obama

administration will handle things put he had a great opportunity at the beginning because he had some -- the last thing goes back to what you have been talking about with israel and the palestinians. the issue of water and water rights and how that plays. thank you. guest: i will answer the first question. if we think back, president obama went to cairo in june of 2009. he had been in office six months or so. he delivered a very big speech about the need for more open democratic arab world. it is not a coincidence. there was a lot of hope that things might change. i don't know that anyone thought it would come so dramatically and as fast as we have seen it. he was seen as inspiration. it is gone tricky. president obama has found you

have this often difficult choice between u.s. values and u.s. strategic interests. at times, they can conflict. i think the president's -- people in this part of the middle east and north africa do look to the united states. they are kind of wondering, would get full support to democratic opponents but does that mean military support? will we stand back of the obama administration is still figuring out its policies. people have the same issues. guest: in addition to president obama's speech in cairo, you have to go back to condoleezza rice who gave a symbol speech in cairo, talking about how u.s. policy in the millie's has long favored stability over democracy. she stated that the new doctrine of the bush administration was that they would favor democracy in these countries.

there was a point of time where mixed signals were sent to democratic activists in these countries, the arab countries and capitals. the groundwork for what we're seeing as a series of revolutions was laid during the bush administration and fall about a speech by president obama. now i think what we're seeing from the white house and state department and pentagon is the that i don't think anyone believes they can control what is going on in the middle east right now. they are trying to remain engaged in a way that the democratic movement emerges from this period of tumult, that the u.s. will be seen as a friendly player who wants to help and not hinder what is going on. more host:, an independent caller from new york. -- mark, an independent caller. caller: much influence to the

united states have in these people fighting for their freedom? what do you think that president obama decided to help them and go against allies that had been there for years and years, who have been suppressing the extreme islamists? now those leaders are out and you don't know what we'll have. guest: i was there for the first gulf war when the iraqis were pushed out of kuwait. it was overwhelming support for america. america was seen as the one country that could do something. there was pro-american graffiti on the walls of the embassy in kuwait. to give you a sense of the steam -- what esteem americans were held at the time. i think you've seen a waning of american influence and mixed signals.

u.s.-supported some of these leaders who were unpopular. there was always a sense of a choice between an autocratic leaders like mubarak in egypt or islam as extremists. it has gotten very hard, for the u.s. to make clear its position. i will say that i think this administration -- if this hadn't administration -- but this administration had decided to back the bar, he would still be in power. hi think lingering in the state department and in the white house's-was the lack of intervention that occurred when the iranian people tried to

interfere effused back and they were pretty well squashed by the iranian regime. i think you have to look at european interests. and it was really the french and the british wanted an ally as they go to go in and do something against gaddafi. there were people let the pentagon advising against this. each country has been a case by case basis. i think what the administration has realized is that this is a jeanie des you cannot put back in the bottle. trying tomply shepherd this process as best they can, even though it is likely to be claimed as the regime. host: we are talking to jennifer

crittendon, greg myre, husband and wife team. they understand you were just talking to secretary gates. guest: yes, secretary gates has a long history and relishes it with libya because he was debbie director of the cia -- deputy director of the cia, in the 1980's. he was definitely trying to caution against regime change in libya because he saw how difficult it was. one of the firm lines he has drawn is no grown troops in an african or middle eastern country. and he also cautioned the of the day on capitol hill that regime

change often takes 10 years, as we have seen in iraq. host: we will go to andrew in florida. caller: i just want to make a quick comment about educational causes and university in the states. with the news media, how is it possible to be a more current events? when you came back to the states and went to a friend -- went to friends and family and tried to describe the situation, the older generations -- was in the older generations or the denver generations that could not complete?

guest: i actually think that this book, which really gives you an updated look at the israeli conflict would be great in conference. -- in classrooms. [laughter] there are many people who have followed this conflict for a long time and it answers a lot of key questions. my experience, after going to the pentagon and i have spoken to a lot of military personnel, i am amazed at how much americans know about the world economic -- the world that we've been -- the world that we live in as a result of iraq and

afghanistan. we have had in nearly 1.5 million people who have served in the last decade and they come back with a lawrence of arabia attitude toward the middle east. guest: i will make one little counterpoint there. there are fewer american journalist based in the released today than there were on 9/11. that has to do with the economics of newspapers and television, but it is still a interesting fact -- an interesting fact based on the drug involvement of the last decade. host: can you speak to the cost of having you in israel and palestine? guest: you have an office there and you need people to support you there.

you needed translators and an armored car. host: security? guest: not really, we needed an armored car and five decades. guest: in iraq and afghanistan you paper mobley $1,000 per day for security surrounding them. guest: where we were people did not necessarily always want our opinions, but in iraq and afghanistan, they targeted you. phone.let's go to the a call from maryland. caller: i read j-post and here

ts each morning. i am surprised at how diverse the views are held even by his release. they seem to have a broader and more diverse discussion that we often have here. i wonder if you have gotten into your broken in to both sides of the discussion even happening in israel. guest: we absolutely do. the point you made it is a verbatim what we have said many times. the paper you mentioned is a very liberal newspaper and a very good one. jay post is on the conservative side in israel, but they both

have very good articles, discussions, and opinion pieces. it did strike aus that the daily discussion in israel is often lacking here in the u.s.. you are looking at the right sources and getting a range of opinions. had see thosewe hav kind of debate secure the u.s. guest: the characters that we introduce you to are part of that society that are not going along with the flow. there is one person who goes around the west bank and monitors the settlements and the expansion of settlements.

on the palestinian side, we have with the military units, the paramilitary units during the intifada. there was a point at which he felt that the intifada had failed. these are events that are documented in the characters that we introduce you to in the book. host: today in the open court wall street journal" -- guest: what we see in lebanon, which is always a complicated and confusing story,

affectively, a hezbollah is in control of the government there. they have had elections. the prime minister is aligned with hezbollah there. i was surprised to see this headline commission are now as opposed to a couple of months ago when his blood got in control of the government. the u.s. -- when hezbollah got in control of the government. the u.s. is a little concerned about where it could go if we send arms to hezbollah. we witnessed two wars, one in 1996 and another in 2006, where a of hezbollah and israel were fighting across that border. guest: back in 2006, and we have

a chapter in the book about this, about the war between israel and hezbollah, we spent 34 days on the border documenting the katisha katyusha -- the katish fighters. we wanted to beef up the strength of the lebanese government. what you are seeing is they are finally catching of to the political changes that are happening on the ground. host: a man wearing an explosive bolts was arrested as he tried to enter the offices of the largest opposition group. how does that factor into the whole situation in the mideast? guest: and jordan is like all of

now of the country's right n surrounding israel. normally, you have the king of jordan and a monarchy there. in the countries that are facing protests, the monarchies and seemed to be doing a and better than other families that have held onto power in a tyrannical way. they have managed to hold things together. there have been protests, but things have been mild compared to some of the other capitals. the problem with jordan is that there is a town in jordan that is very radical. your murder -- you remember how zarqawi, who was one of the

leaders the we-he was a leader for al qaeda. there are tensions between protestors, a radical islamists , and those trying to power, such as the king. host: let's go back to phone calls. caller: as long as the leaders are planning a hard ball, there is no peace. people go on and on forever.

my other point, i am very concerned -- and the world, not just the u.s. should be concerned. they have brought 150,000 army mercenaries. he said he will release them to europe as soon as he is done with them. he is paying them $300 for each person they killed. guest: we have certainly heard a lot about these mercenaries to be annoyed. it is not clear surely how extensive their role is. guest: i have to jump in there.

host: go ahead. guest: in terms of the mercenaries, they're the ones protecting him and it is the reason he is holding on to the capitol right now i have heard reports about him and i do not think we know what will happen if the fighting ends in libya. but i can tell you about an interesting town in eastern libya that is well documented, a radical town that should be watched carefully. that is where we are covering the surge in iraq. confound all of the paperwork of the suicide bombers that were designating themselves in iraq. they found the 19% of them came

from one village, one town in libya. the u.s. military did not know why. my colleague from "newsweek" went to darna a few years ago and he documented the very anti- american an atmosphere and how they were recruiting in this town. these are things that have to be wise -- how to be watched. if libya turns into basically a failed regime, that is a very dangerous situation. host: since you just got back from africa, what you to comment on this headline -- and guest: this is an

incredibly, incendiary situation. you have this pastor in florida who has taken it upon himself to burn the grant. it is a very incendiary thing to do. it has left to -- led to the death of several civilians killed by a raging mob two days ago. it is a very hard situation and it is hard to understand how this pastor in florida can justify burning the karan when we have more than 100,000 troops in can justify burning the karan when we have more than 100,000 troops in

>> grace elizabeth hale, in your book, "a nation of outsiders," you devote a whole chapter to j.d. salinger and the catcher in the right. wide? >> well, i think he is interesting because his character, holden caulfield is way the first extremely popular rebel figure who really comes from and delete at least opera no class background in this postwar period. he is not alienated because of his race or because of his class background, or because he is a bohemian. is a prep school dropout. he's a resident of a very nice new york apartment. and this is really the dawning of a new kind of rubble. >> what was the effect of the book in 1951? >> it was really huge.

the book's style was very different from a lot of published fiction at the time. it was a kind of sliding almost bratty sort of dialogue style that really caught the eye of young people, people of all ages but especially younger people. and the book really made quite an impression on readers at the time. and really throughout the '50s and into the '60s, today as well for that matter. >> subtitle of your book, how the white middle class fell in love with rebellion in postwar america. besides j.d. salinger, "catcher in the rye," what other rebellious figures were out there? >> well, if the initial postwar period and white middle class folks were really attracted to a host of different figures that the experience, mostly through popular culture, through television, through magazine reading, "life" magazine, especially. those sorts of venues. and also the movies.

so particularly in the '50s rock 'n roll, the birth of rock 'n roll, particularly folks like elvis presley, certainly a huge favorite of young people, and some of the older folks as well across the country who really made a name for himself acting very deliberately putting on a performance of blackness, a black style, black address that is, black musical styles, though he was of course white. and other figures followed him. so rock 'n roll would be one place that people really fell in love with rebels. also used movies, james dean of course, rebel without a cause became a kind of catchphrase for the rebels of the era, that phrase would certainly apply to holden caulfield as will produce a folks who don't have a political problem. they don't have a class problem. but their alienated all the same. so all of dean's movies, marlon brando, many of his early movies, the wild ones where he makes that wonderful line, young

waitress asked him what he rebuilding against, and he says what do you got? so those are places you see rebels. and then also bohemian becomes more popular at the time. "life" magazine does a great job of bringing peoples from the sort of fringes into the classrooms across the country and the people are able to pick up their "life" magazine and look at pictures of beatniks and beat writers like allen ginsberg and jack kerouac, and look at writers like jackson pollock. and folks about it wouldn't have done that much about unless they happen to be interest in the art world or in poetry to sit with at most middle-class white americans wouldn't know that much about. >> william f. buckley is the ultimate outsider? >> well, he is an interesting figure because he goes to yale in the late '40s. he is at yale, and he would not have been an outsider most places in america, but he really feels very much that he is at

yale because he believes that the liberal, liberalism of professors really dominates not just the campus with academic offerings, that there is a kind of intellectual orthodoxy at yale that is constructed by these liberal professors, and that you really don't have much room to stray outside that. and he comes to school from a very conservative family, a family that half of it has roots in the deep south, and the other half not, but a very conservative catholic white family with a conservative politics. and so he brings those politics with him to yale, and feels very much that he is a rebel against that yale ivy league liberal culture. >> we've been talking quite a bit now about the '50s. what's the effect of all this, this white rebellion? >> well, i think it begins to grow in the '60s and people begin to make the leap funding

interest in people they see as being different or rebels into imagining themselves as rebels or outsiders. and you see folks making that leap, particularly young white college students through the folk music revival, really a very important venue for that kind of thinking. people start out maybe listing to the kingston trio or even harry belafonte, and before you don't have graduated to live at congress, scratchy library of congress records and other field recordings made. and then before you don't have bought a guitar and they're picking out songs in the bedroom and thinking about how they can cast themselves as kind of a folk music you. the ultimate example of that would be bob dylan. but there many, many other folks who don't become famous but to take the guitars to washington square park and sort of put on the folk and enjoy the music, try to find a way to play it in

what they think of as an authentic manner. and this leads a lot of kids into new left politics. >> who are the new white and negro's? >> well, i use the term because at the time in the '50s and '60s its use pejoratively by southern traditionalists and segregationists. they call anybody who's interested, who is white who's interested or supporting the civil rights struggle of cellblocks, they're often called white negroes, southern shares yell that at white actors, those are used, or writings to the student nonviolent court in committee folks, folk singers like pete seeger it hate mail calling him a white negro, white bigger. so i use that phrase to describe those white mostly middle-class folks who take up an interest in black culture and black politics and again sorry with rock 'n

roll and then moving through the folk visit revival and into the support for some of them in support for civil rights organizing. >> who are the insiders? >> i think those would be the ultimate outsiders today, wouldn't they? the people of claim the center would perhaps, are not a very large crowd, but would perhaps be the ultimate outsider give you think about it since outsider is soap opera. i think that we are really a nation that thinks about difference these days, i think that's one of the things that romanticization of outsiders helped change. in the mid '20s century, there is really a very powerful sense of white middle-class culture as universal, white middle-class way of life as the way that almost all americans live or the norm, the way we should live. and his love of outsiders really has a positive effect of helping people to see different and recognize difference. it may be goes overboard but by

the time that george w. bush running as an outsider for president. is a man who went to an elite prep school in new england, harvard and yale, a graduate of both of those institutions. son of the present and yet he runs as very effectively as an outsider. so what are things i want to highlight is just how much that means our understanding of how outside and inside center and margins has changed, if we can see somebody like george w. bush as an outsider. >> who do you consider to be outsiders today? >> i don't ask what i do think about in terms of who i think of as an outsider. i'm interested in why people see themselves as outsiders and why they positioned themselves that way in public. so i think it's interesting that obama is one of the recent presidential candidates who really hasn't pushed himself or run or constructed a narrative of himself as that much of an outsider, a special in his more recent writings and in his performance during the campaign.

and i think race has a lot to do with it. he's trying to downplay his differences as an african-american and as for the more recent successful candidates for president who didn't pursue a kind of narrative of himself as an outsider. think of bill clinton, actually ran as an outsider. we've already mentioned george bush. so i think that's interesting. certainly a group that is very much working the outsider shtick today would be the tea party. very, very energized by that sense of opposition to a kind of corrupt mainstream america that has gone astray. >> how did you grow up, white middle-class? >> i did. i did. >> were you attracted to outside causes or events of? >> i think it's really hard to be a young person in america since the '50s, especially since the era of holden caulfield and not see herself as an outsider. and certainly i was attracted to

that. i would off to college from atlanta, suburban atlanta where i grew up to the university of georgia, which at the time was breaking out with all kinds of crazy bohemians and musicians. rem was playing for free in venues around town. people thought it was the music of capital of the nation. so yes, i certainly enjoy that. and so he took part in it. >> what do you teach your at university of virginia's? >> i teach 20th century u.s. cultural history and the history of the u.s. south, and to work for the history department as was the american studies program. >> how did you get attracted to that area of study? >> well, one of my daughters incest mom, you're the greatest job in the world, you get to watch movies all day. and i said, if you live your life correctly, someday you can have this job as well. in all seriousness, it really is a wonderful joy being able to spend your time weeding 20th

century literature and poetry and watching films and listening to music, and i've just always been profoundly interested in the period. started out in the early part of 20 centuries and the '30s and then kind of leapfrog into an interest in the '60s and '70s. and have a one of the decade, i mean the century yet. >> professor dyer, one at the end of the semester do you want to students to take away from one of your classes and what you want people to take away from "a nation of outsiders"? >> i want my students to take away the ability to think historically and critically about the categories they use to make meaning in their everyday lives, to think about ideas and concepts as having a history and not just people or nations. so for example, if a going to talk about racism, i want him to be able to understand that that doesn't mean the same thing in 1860 as it does in 1890 as it

does in 1960. that that is a concept that changes over time, and the concept of racial identity as well changing over time. that would be one example. but i want him to be able to think about ideas and concepts and categories of having a history. so the folk for example, that doesn't mean the same thing across time and space. i think it's interesting to think about these kinds of things. >> this is the book. it's published by oxford, "a nation of outsiders." it's grace elizabeth hale's second book. subtitle "how the white middle class fell in love with rebellion in postwar america." >> get the book tv schedule e-mailed to you. to sign up use our website, booktv.org and present the alert button, or use your mobile phone. text the workbook to 99702. standard message and data rates appl