these sort of intellectual antecedents and, for instance, french counterinsurgency theory that really did talk about, you know, the roles and missions and how you needed to refashion government to get at this sort of really tricky problem. and they placed an interesting role and advocacy and they've become in some ways -- it's been described by other reporters as kind of a farm team for the obama administration of foreign policy. >> what's your day job? >> my day job? i write for the "wall street journal"? i cover national security. >> finally, nathan hodge, what is the image on the front of your book, the young boy in the wrap-around and soldier. where did you get this image? >> i think the image conveys a little bit for how i felt about this mission as i observed it unfold which was kind of -- it was at times -- it brought to mind the sort of the ronald reagan saying, you know, i'm from the government. i'm here to help. yes, we are.

our military is there. they are there to help. they are there to do, you know, fundamentally humanitarian things and that's a mission that they've embraced. it's a rewarding mission. but it's one that also has some unintended consequences. so i wanted to at least share that there's a little bit of an ironic juxtaposition. >> armed humanitarians is the name of the book subtitled the rise of the nation builders. author is nathan hodge. >> next tomiko brown-nagin looks at the civil rights movement in atlanta and the differences between the activists who participated in it over three decades. this is a little over an hour. >> welcome. it is my great pleasure to introduce tomiko brown-nagin, the justice thurgood marshall school of law and professor of

history in virginia. professor tomiko brown-nagin holds a ph.d. from duke university and a law degree from yale university where she was an editor of the yale law journal. she received her b.a. summa cum laude from berman university. she served as a law clerk to the honorable jane roth of the united states court of appeals for the third circuit and to the honorable robert l. carter of the united states district court for the southern district of new york. at uva, profession brown teaches constitutional law, constitutional and social history and education law. she's considered one of the leading young legal historians and has written widely in the areas of legal history, education law, and the supreme court's equal protection jurisprudence. her scholarship has appeared in some of the foremost law journals within the legal academy. in february of this year, oxford

university press published professor tomiko brown-nagin's first book, courage of dissent, the long history of the civil rights movement, a social history about lawyers, courts and community-based activism during the civil rights era. this highly anticipated work has already garnered widespread acclaim. most notably for members of our community, the book features some of the lawyers who were integral players in the legal odyssey that ultimately led to the desegregation of the university of georgia. and this would be the subject of her talk today. if you have questions at the end of her talk, please use the microphones down at the front to ask the questions. and at this time join me in welcoming me to professor tomiko brown-nagin. [applause]

>> good afternoon. thank you so much for that kind introduction. and to all of you for coming out. it's an honor and a privilege to be here at the university of georgia, particularly, in this fifth year, the anniversary year, of the school's desegregation. i want to begin by, of course, thanking the american constitution society for inviting me to appear here, particularly to ashland johnson, who organized this event. she's worked so hard on bringing this together. and i appreciate that so much. i also want to recognize the cosponsors of the event, including the georgia history department, the african-american cultural center, the institutes of american -- african-american studies, and graduate and professional scholars. thank you all. i'm thrilled famously litigated

that desegregated the schools formally brown versus board of education and, of course, went on to become the nation's first african-american supreme court justice. because of his role in the legal history of the movement, the civil rights movement, many, many books that are written

about the legal history of the movement revolve around thurgood marshall and his conception of equality. well, my book is different. it begins with the question of, what would the legal history of the civil rights movement look like if the work of thurgood marshall and the work of the supreme court justices weren't so central to the story? what would we see. who would we see? and my book answers that question with this observation. if we move those familiar persons and institutions away from the center of analysis, we can see unsung lawyers and activists at the local level. people who contributed a lot to the social and legal world that we live in today. people who sometimes disagreed

with thurgood marshall in his conception of equality. people whom we ought to remember just as we remember marshall. and i say that because i think in remembering these people we add depth to the history of the rights movement. now my work, my book "courage to dissent" recalls the history of the movement in atlanta. and, of course, you all know that atlanta is a leading american city today. but it was also really important during the civil rights movement because it was the home to leading civil rights organizations including the southern christian leadership council and snix, the student organization, the student nonviolent coordination

committee. so what i would like to do is focus on particular on sncc and other ways of lawyers and activists who contributed -- who are unsung and who contributed to the history of the movement. i take a bottom-up perspective on constitutional law. and what i'd like to do this afternoon is discuss three-ways of unsung lawyers and activists who i argue in my book contributed to the civil rights movement in important ways. the first point i want to emphasize is that all of these dissenters, and i style all of these people dissenters have the same overarching goals of equality. but they had different priorities and tactics for achieving equality. they defined equality in

different ways. the first wave of dissenters were pragmatists. i call them pragmatists because they wanted to challenge jim crow, but without destroying the social and economic capital that the black middle class had built in segregation. who are some of these pragmatists. they were some of the black college presidents in atlanta, many african-american teachers who were the lion's share of the black middle class. and they also included a.t. walden, who was one of the south's first african-american lawyers. and here he is a portrait of mr. walton. mr. walton was the son of former slaves and sharecroppers. he studied at atlanta university with w.b. dubois. he went on to graduate with honors from the university of michigan law school.

he excelled at michigan while waiting tables for a local fraternity. he is little known today but walden really inspired a generation of african-american lawyers, including vernon jordan, a lawyer, the counsel to the president who i'm sure some of you have heard of. jordan called walden so impressive. he said, quote, i wanted to be a lawyer just like walden. i wanted to walk like him and talk like him. and hang out my shingle on auburn street just like walden. above all else, pragmatists like walden and the black college presidents prioritized voting rights as the path to black power. and here we see walden challenging the so-called white primary. the laws, the tradition of

excluding african-americans from the vote in georgia and elsewhere. and here is the result of his activism. in 1946, after the fall of the white primary, blacks lined up all over the streets in atlanta eager to exercise the franchise. and yet walden and other pragmatists and uncle tom's. why would that be? they didn't challenge segregation and he found housing for african-americans whenever he could. in the midst of a post-war housing crisis. and this has the effect of maintaining the color line. and as a result poor black neighborhoods remained intact. neighborhoods like the one where

this woman lived remained intact and really his decisions had the impact of exacerbating segregation over time. else was called an accommodationist because he never embraced school desegregation. of course, a chief way in which thurgo thurgood marshall. he was trying to preserve the jobs of african-american school teachers. but also it was because he was worried that in desegregated schools, african-american students would not have a nurturing school environment. so because of his skepticism of school desegregation, he didn't file a case to desegregate the schools in atlanta until 1958. although he promised thurgood marshall that he would file a case right after brown was

decided in 1954. he was carrying forth in prosecuting the uga case. walden was replaced as lead counsel on the initial case to desegregate the university of georgia which was filed in 1952. he was replaced because the ldf lawyers in new york thought he was too beholden to the white power structure to litigate the case aggressively. it fell to constance baker motley and donald hollowell to litigate that case in 1961 which was 11 years after walden initially started that fight and here you see horace ward who was the initial prosecutor in that case and donald hollowell on the right who litigated that case

after walden was replaced as lead counsel. moreover, walden and other pragmatists opposed the direct action tactics of the second wave of dissenters in my book. now, the second wave of dissenters consisted of street demonstrators and movement lawyers. and here a typical scene involving these demonstrators. they're squared off here in 1964 against the clan. these activists thought to achieve social and economic empowerment for black communities by desegregating public accommodations, by walking picket lines with unions, by engaging in red stripes and generally trying to reach the african-american community where it was. there are two lawyers, lynn holt and harold moore, jr. who became

allies of the student movement during the 1960s. and my book spends many, many chapters detailing the synergies between these lawyers and the student movement over the course of the 1960s. ..

i want to emphasize two points. they are first to students heard to date direct partly out of frustration with civil rights leaders and the civil rights litigation, the pace of civil rights litigation was too slow for them. by two, even as they pursued their new tactics, they didn't turn entirely away from the law and i want to read you a quote from john lewis that eliminates the nature of the students critique of a lawyer dominated movement. lewis said quote, we were all about a mass movement, and irresistible movement of the masses, not a handful of lawyers in a closed court to, but hundreds, thousands of everyday people taking their cars unbelief to the streets.

not so interested in the years. now, it's important to appreciate the contacts of the statement. he made it at a time when mainstream civil rights lawyers including thurgood marshall were very negative on direct action. the beginning of the students movement, thurgood marshall said to the students that the way to change america was through the chorus, not in the streets. he told the students they were going to get someone killed if they continued with their tax kicks. he told them they were a baby and whites in an atlanta committee t. walton agreed with that assessment. so this is a contact in which the students pushed back and said no. anyone can serve. we don't need to be mediated and

we're going to do around thing. now, as it turned out, there is a problem. the students preferred pics off and landed them in jail and style, they realize that they desperately needed representation. they needed lawyers because if nothing else, we know lawyers can get you released from jail, right? so in the middle of their movements and excitement about political tactics, the students really something we all know or at least we know our hope is true and that is that lawyers can't live with them, but you also can't live without them. so the students turn back the lawyers, sought new allies and realize that they could find allies who are interested in their tax takes.

and those lawyers are lynn holt and howard moore junior who answered the call. and now i want to tell you a bit about the lawyers. their approaches to litigation really eliminates the value of looking at the legal history of the movement from the bottom up. the first lawyer title talk about is lynn holt, who collaborated with scores of community-based organizations in the south, including and its atlanta affiliate, the committee until for human rights. now, lynn holt was charismatic. he was called the snake.your. because of his style, he was a rabble-rouser, and that this lawyer and he was proud of it. and they think it really comes through in these photographs with a hot and a very long cigar he called the clint eastwood

kind of a style of cigar, quite evocative. holt identified as a lawyer he wanted to catalase social visits. he said the movement should the employer's should follow. his goal is to fortify the participatory democracy. he latches the courtroom as political theater. the interesting thing is biography is a key to understanding why lynn holt chose this approach to lawyering. lynn holt had attended law school at howard university during the 1950s, which was a golden age for the institution. this was when thurgood marshall and other lgf lawyers mooted their argument, the argument they would make you for the

supreme court at howard law school. imagine how exciting this was to have thurgood marshall and all of these lawyers in the mix, especially for someone like lynn holt, who wanted to be a civil rights lawyer. he was right there in the midst. in an important way, it turned out he had the privilege of fetching coffee and see which is for thurgood marshall doing a little bit of legal research for those lawyers as well. imagine being so close to someone whom you admire it so much. he was intent on going to work after he graduated from howard, but he did not do that. am i less that? he became very troubled by lbos school desegregation strategy, how it played out in cedric county, virginia appeared the

school board close the schools for five years rather than comply with the school desegregation decree and for all that time, local children did not go to school. lynn holton was a virginia lawyer had an office in norfolk, witness the impact of the school closing as they traveled back and forth throughout the state and the woodcutter prince edward county in a cellblock boys and girls, eight and nine years old standing around doing nothing. these are the children of black agricultural, who themselves have not been well-educated and lynn holt told me he thought this was another lost generation and he concluded the school desegregation litigation and post-extravagance cause i'm black communities and the naacp

officials hadn't properly cared for their client and he also questioned the narrow focus on school segregation anyway, given the material deprivation of these communities. so it's within this context he developed his commitment to movement lawyering. he said that he would lawyer in a different way. he would set the objectives, the goals of the people first. he explained, lawyers were no longer the central agents to approve the cause of freedom and equality through their own special arena. their primary task was to find ways of helping the black people themselves enforce the constitutional promises of freedom and equality.

now, my book recounts how lynn holt pioneered the use of a tax code omnibus civil rights used to facilitate the movement's goals of desegregating public accommodation consistent with this comp that of movement lawyering. the omnibus civil rights action was unique in that it challenged segregation in many, many venues all at once, rather than on a piece of mail basis. and let me describe what i mean. he complained, under this complaint filed danville, virginia revealed that it is tax segregation in the danville memorial hospital, the city are becoming a city housing projects and many other state-controlled entity. the idea here is that the sound of his education he advanced the

students goal of freedom now. they were uninterested in waiting and challenging jim crow but i did. that was inefficient from theirs and point. so by filing the suit, the students with evil to have a lawsuit that would hopefully tear down jim crow must quickly. at the same time they would continue their protest in the street and that of segregation into different forums. the student movement in atlanta filed one of these on the base suits per se in 1961 and the complaints caption reflect to the flare of the lawyers who filed on their own or without a lawyer. he was the caption. a suit to exhume much of the

cancerous racial segregation that is festering within atlanta, the student said. now, thurgood marshall probably would've left out the cancerous part, right? and they described as the desegregation policies themselves and equally provocative terms. they called them quote insulting, degrading, and necessary, foolish and set to. and again you could imagine thurgood marshall another lawyers would find it unconstitutional. the students with their provocative style won their case. in 1962, a federal district court struck down all ordinances requiring segregation into theaters, arenas and public calls and other publicly funded, finding them unconstitutional under the 14th amendment. the students had filed this

lawsuit amid continuing protests, linking the political type just as lynn holt had imagined and as you can imagine the students were very happy with lynn holt and the way in which he contributed to the very idea of what the movement should be. because of his support of the movement, he was beloved. mary king compared him to quote and i bullishness of the underground railroad. james foreman called him far ahead of the conservatives legal profession and carmichael called them one of the great unsung heroes of the civil rights movement. certainly lynn holt ought to be remembered. now let's talk about junior he was there on the left. howard moore junior was six

general counsel, a native son of atlanta. he had been inspired to attend law school when thurgood marshall came to atlanta and wowed the crowd with the speech. he said to himself, i can talk like that. and so he could. howard moore, just like a tivo than before him, horace ward and other ambitious african-americans had to go out of state to law school. that was because at the time he was excluded from the university of georgia because of his release. he went up north to boston, university. when he graduated he came back to georgia. he really wanted to be a member of the georgia bar into the dose in his home state and city. he joined the bar in 1962.

and when he did, he was only 10 full-time black lawyer practicing. not in atlanta, but in the entire state of georgia, which might strike you as pretty incredible. those numbers, by the way, didn't improve very much until the 1970s. anyways, what's he joined the bar, he went to work for donald hollowell who was on the right. another legendary lawyer who is very important. hollowell was more a centaur, although when they first met each other, it was an odd encounter that he told more that he was a lawyer and moore said, that's bull. he actually said something a little more colorful, but fortunately he set it to himself

he got himself a mentor. the point is lack lawyers were very, very rare, inconceivable that a black man could be a lawyer at the time. nevertheless, he went on to make each mentis and pat. as general counsel he represented three social movements come antipoverty movement and in the peace movement. he filed actions that stand sensitive areas of law. so you advocated housing cases for impoverished clients who are subjected to summary evictions. he got to know these clients because the students in the atlanta movement were in atlanta's ghettos, trying to help people find way out of those conditions. the students helps people obtain social services,

balanced-budget, all sorts of matters and more handles related legal cases. he also worked on behalf of conscientious tears who are anxious to avoid service in the vietnam war. he represented school desegregation plaintiffs at least until he became quite a critic of school desegregation. he handled criminal proceedings, including capital cases. he filed first amendment actions on behalf of all manner of demonstrators cut its roster of clients included carmichael, cleveland sellers, julian bond, some of the most prominent to visit in 60. they had an empathic learning style, which endeared him to his clients. he was called the lamp, one volunteer called him a big lovable teddy bear. she said more altogether corrected us under pressure and it worked with me, try to get myself together.

this is a typical testimonial about how important moore was to the movement. he told me he'd do the practice of law as a crusade for justice and he was quite rave, which made him a good fit for his roster of clients, including julian bond. and then mr. bond is. julian bond in 1965 was elected to the church a house of representatives. he campaigned on an antipoverty platform in atlanta's core communities, communities like the one you see here. he has an adorable kitty. and yet, when it came time for bond to be seated, his colleagues refused to cede to them, refuse to him in.

why would they have done that? because bond had endorsed the statement opposing the hypocritical vietnam war. even though the u.s. government had not lived up to its commit to democracy in the u.s. and it is for this that on had been called unqualified for public office. he had committed treason with these words. he was asked to repudiate the statements. it is important to know that these requests came not only from length, but the entire black establishment in atlanta. howard moore recalled the leadership in the black community was 100% against julian bond. now, as they say that, very mind that as these actions are taking place in january of 1966, most

americans still supported the war. that or king would not publicly press opposition to the war until 1967. and for snake was on the leaking rad that antiwar sentiment. bond was under intense pressure that stood out. he said, i hope that throughout my life i shall always have the courage to defend. his supporters back him up, saying what could be more patriotic than the expression of dissent in america? a country born revolution. this photograph is a picture of bond in the chambers for his colleagues who are refusing. he argued the right to express

can vent is the keystone of democracy. members mobilize and supported him and he actually required to stand for reelection while he had been undefeated. and his constituents backed them up. they supported him. he was reelect the. in the meantime, howard moore filed a lawsuit, challenging this explosion ultimately he won more knit team of lawyers prevailed in the case. in fact they send their gilded and important supreme court decision, upholding the first amendment right of elected officials, which is one reason among many that surely howard moore junior deserves to be remembered. and now, let's consider the third wave of dissenters who, in my book are personified by

walter rights activists and a lawyer who represented them. now, this third wave of dissenters really brings the book full circle because just as students had challenged the first wave committee's pragmatists, the third wave challenged his students. in fact, they challenged the entire society. and in my book, apple may not use who is shown shown on the cover and then the slide personified this way the dissenters. apple may not be as was the daughter of alabama sharecroppers. she arrived in atlanta during the 1950s. she worked as a housekeeper. she lived in public housing and she later found her political voice than the welfare rights movement during the 1960s.

not is and others like her, as she rose -- they rose to challenge the second wave and others in the civil rights movement, made it clear that the formal equality of the civil rights act of 1964 and the voting rights act of 1965 were not enough. they were not enough. mathews another sad because jim crow had left a legacy of the racialized poverty. ms, ms. mathews and other women, mostly women and the welfare rights movement which protest for affordable housing and inadequate income. they also were vocal critics of many politicians, it including the new black political class

selected in the wake of the voting rights act of 1965 k. unique in the right to vote alone was not enough if the representatives were not responsive. mathews another is five feet for a responsive political structure for accountability. and listen to her voice. she said, quote, many of those who profess to want change don't hear nothing about poor people. if they had poor people at heart, she said they could make it bigger. they forget about you. they forget about who they are and where they come from. and there she is talking about the people who are the good by people like her. what is her priorities this school desegregation. she filed a lawsuit to challenge the atlanta public schools. she wanted school desegregation.

and she met resistance, not only from white, but from blacks. now recall that pragmatists like dt walton had opposed desegregation in the 1950s, mostly to protect the black middle class, but also out of concern for his demands. well, it turned out during the 1970s, the local naacp in atlanta upholds school desegregation and for much the same reason. they decided to settle the school desegregation case that was ongoing in atlanta in order to preserve the jobs of african american school teachers principals. they were concerned about employment discrimination and also that they were concerned that black students would not have a good environment and desegregated majority white

schools. now, even as matt is challenged his death, prominent lax in atlanta's community supported the settlement. this included dr. benjamin mei who had become the president of the atlanta board of education in 1969. an occluded maynard jackson who would he come mayor of atlanta. andrew young supported the settlement. lots of african-american -- prominent african-american leaders. but this does not stop mathews another wedding in atlanta's housing projects from pushing ahead. they challenge the settlement and name it he resisted and say lawmaking who is the head of the local naacp. he defended it with these words among others. he said if i have to choose between sitting beside whitey and a job that pays, i want the

job. matthew shot back quote, why should our children be pawned for a few greenbacks? and us, you can deduct mathews and her neighbors were concerned about their children. she knew they needed they would matter the wealthy, but they did want the opportunity for their children to climb out of poverty and the dot that teresa had to do that was to get a good education and the associated racially schools without opportunity. so they pushed ahead, hired margie. teens who was a lawyer says he did with the aclu to back them up in court, challenging the settlement. mathews confronted and other women confronted powerful lawyers in court rooms.

and again, i went to shared mathews voiced a few because i think it is quite powerful. she said in the courtroom, i represent poor people and i think their children need equal education as well as the rich person's children. she continued, i would ask the court to let us poor people be in on the decision as lack and poor people because we are the ones that live it. we are the ones that her children go to the ghetto schools. and she also said, you don't know how it makes another feel when her children go all the way through 12th grades and come out can't even spell her name. now, margie haynes didn't win her case, but even as they say that, i will emphasize that

courage dissent isn't just winners history. in fact, i think it is important to write the history of societies losers. the voice of ethel may not be as in her neighbors, it seems to me, is critically important to adding to legal history, especially the rights movement, and again because they insisted that we remember that jim crow and poverty were interwoven and left a legacy. now, i will conclude by drawing out the larger lesson that i think one can learn from the bottom-up view of constitutional history of civil rights. but i want to offer three possibilities. the first is this.

it seems to me that decentering the supreme court that jan and even legendary players like thurgood marshall from the legal history of the solar rights movement opens that a much broader, deep her and synthetic interpretation of the history. one can really see how dynamic movement was. it was so much more than a few marquee legal cases such as brown v. board of education. the lawyers whom i have spoken about, margie haynes paid, lynn holt, howard maurer, these are figures whom it is important to recall. they were created. they offer models of social change that are different and important respects from the model that thurgood marshall embraced. and i say that in part because there is a literature -- a

political science literature that are accused of civil rights lawyers are actually ill-served by reliance on the court, by affirmative constitutional litigation. and that is because it turned out that the supreme court would not or could not enforce its own decree. meanwhile, the movement was so focused on the law that it tended not to mobilize politically. well, what i argue in my work is that these lawyers did not fit that description. they were very savvy. they were able to use the courts and constitutional concept to their advantage, even when they were skeptical of those same

concepts. a second lesson here is that i am telling a different story about accommodations. silly man like will then who is dismissed as an uncle tom and i lbf on hand and by students on the other because he didn't tell you their lines looks more complicated when we consider him in his own time on the ground from his own perspective. within that context, his choices look more reasonable. what he was trying to do it with the practices were trying to do is reconcile the theory, philosophy is a voice and booker t. washington while battling white supremacists. moreover, i think it's very notable that the criticisms of school desegregation in particular that waldman offered

came to be shared by lots and lots of people in the rights movement, all of whom thought something more complicated than integration. so of course people came to understand that one needed nurturing teachers with good curriculum and representation of school boards, for instance. above all else, i would argue that a bottom-up perspective on constitutional history shows that a whole range of people, not only these unsung lawyers, but organizers, demonstrators, women and men in interaction with national institutions helped to shape and give meaning to the constitution. there were people on the ground yet every law shapers come a lot, even lawmakers if you begin to consider their role in the

passage of the landmark solar rights legislation. now i talked about a few people are public figures and there are be familiar with them. john lewis and julian bond. there a lot of people in this book who might talk about where that's familiar were totally unfamiliar. nowhere, michael simmons, martin walker, ev do this, and armor, these people are all history makers. and i hope that one day, when a group is assembled and their names are called out, people will be able to raise their hand in remembrance of them, saying that yes i remember that whole may mathews and howard maurer, lynn holtz, et waldman, all of these people who have to create a more vibrant democracy, a more perfect union. all of them want to be remembered along with justice marshall and i hope that you will. thank you. added forward to your questions.

[applause] if so please come forward if you have questions. >> is based on? >> i believe so. >> what explains atlanta advancing civil rights and a better pace than let's say memphis and birmingham crack i've heard this mentioned by others that if you compare atlanta, birmingham and memphis, let's say 1955, they are all about the same in size than let's say stature. but atlanta becomes the leading

city at the southeast. is it because atlanta handled immigration better than the others? a larger more dynamic black middle class? i think that's a know it ties into talking about, the movement in atlanta, sort of singling it out. it did have a remarkable role nationally that seem to have a bigger impact than let's say those other two southeastern cities. >> well, that's a great question and i will and do you by noting that when i first started this project, i chose atlanta because i thought it would yield a success story. one because i understood that the white city fathers viewed themselves as racial moderate and because of the relatively large black middle class like

black middle-class, one would see a pretty rapid mincemeat transition from jim crow to regime civil rights. and i think that the premise that you articulate their and this idea of success certainly is a story that can be told. and yet, i would emphasize that what atlanta was able to do better than many cities was pr. the mayor hartsville was very keen in the business leaders in atlanta were very keen on minimizing violence and transitioning when there were crazies in such a way that atlanta preserved its image as a

moderate 50 in contrast to a birmingham or in contrast to little rock, for instance. so it's the case that school in atlanta once the school desegregation case was actually filed in 1958, that the schools were desegregated by august of 1961. so as these things happen, that's a pretty -- relatively short transition. and yet what i would emphasize is that desegregation occurred on a token basis. their only nine african-american students and when one starts to think meaningful desegregation atlanta, i don't in the record books that different from any other city. and one could talk about lots of others areas and make the same

observation. so yes, atlanta has a great representation and it was able to transition and a way that maintained it image of moderation. and i would emphasize that obviously did those still today a successful african-american middle class and that's really important. but at the same time, we should remember that there were people who were left behind and that's an important story to tell. >> i just had the question by referring to ms. mathews comm3 >> i just had the question by referring to ms. mathews comment about trading and her children's education for somebody else earning a dollar. to what extent do you think our fears have either been borne out in subsequent civil rights litigation or have her fears than answered in a positive

light in subsequent right civil litigation? >> that's an interesting question. well, i can say this. in atlanta, the perspective of the african-american middle class one out, that disarmament was put into place. atlanta was able to have an african-american school superintendent. it's the school board initially 50% african-american and soon the majority african-american pit the same truth of the city council. and over time, chief mayor and over time atlanta, like many other cities became a black

controlled city. and the theory that the african-american middle class hyatt was the same race representation controlled african-american would yield progress for the entire group. and what ms. mathews is challenging -- he was challenging the premise as early as the late 1960s and the 1970s certainly. and i can tell you assertion that was the case and evolution of the atlanta school board became clear that having the same race representation was not enough to make the city schools

in search of my four children who have the most need. and of course, those are typically going to be the children of the william julius wilson called the truly disadvantaged. so the africans americans who are living in poverty. so i do think that her fears that these majority black school systems would not necessarily yield the progress that the black middle class promised were borne out. and the story of atlanta, the idea of community controlled schools is not just an atlanta story. so it is a story that an approach to education reform that was attempted all over the nation. and in part on eisai detected i should say that it was

attempted, embrace, but also it became the approach out of necessity because atlanta, like so many cities had to deal with white flight, with a contract team economy. so it is a very complex circumstance, a part of why the african-american who took over the cities were not able to achieve all they hope by the time they actually gain power. i think that ms. mathews fears were borne out in politics and the political arena. >> i really liked your bottom-up approach to history. i think that's really valuable because it lends texture and an

understanding of what actually happened. and it makes things seem more contingent and more contested than they were, then the sort of dominant narrative has. so where does the dominant narrative comes from? on the lawyers and thurgood marshall, are they just more prominent and is that what makes a dominant narrative voice that -- what explains that clicks >> well, a number of things i would say even i mention that my book is not just winners history. so the dominant narrative is consistent with winners history. of course we want to tell the history of the naacp lawyers, i've thurgood marshall and his conception of equality because

we are proud in this country of brown v. board of education and its role in cleansing constitutional law of jim crow and mayors some debate about contributing to all of the changes -- subsequent changes in the law. so to the extent that we value the work of marshall and the history is being written by those at the mall schools, one would expect that that particular narrative would be dominant. the constitutional law, as many of you will know, we don't talk

so much about inequalities as they relate to economics. so while it is not a suspect class. there's not a lot one can do it at commemorate? if you're taking terms of mainstream and just it's hard to fit into either muth approached into that dominant narrative because the bottom-up approach is more complicated as you say. it is hard to tell and narrative that is about success and a narrative of progress when you have apple may mathews police have not narrative. so that is a large part of it. and of course it matters who writes history, rate click set as a tremendous part of it, too. other questions?

>> i probably didn't have to come tonight for this, but you mentioned that had the dissenters -- well, you talk about what the dissenters would've preferred that is meant to look like as opposed to the mainstream leaders. i wanted to get your personal opinion on whether or not you think the movement would've been better served had the dissenters had their way. i guess a very large or robust fashion. >> so that is a complicated question in part because a part of what i'm arguing is that the dissenters disagree with one another. so i can only answer the question by referring to particular dissenters that particular historical moments.

and so, i'll start with the paramus says. i do think that the critique of school desegregation that was offered was valuable. plus, when i think it may teach education law and policy, when i think about what makes for a good school, good education, i don't just think about putting students in a classroom and just letting them be. of course it takes nurturing teachers and it's thinking about the curriculum. another criticisms of school desegregation across the way in which the process unfolded, related to the destruction of

culture. so things like mascot and all sorts of things that might seem small to us, but from a perspective of students who have certain traditions, i think they are large. dusty that extent i think those critiques for valuable. now, as to the second wave of dissenters, movement lawyers and not do this, certainly the emphasis on an approach to learning that is connected to communities resonates with me very much. now the trick without business. it can be difficult to engage in impact lawyering and remain it to communities.

impact lawyering, class actions, because those cases take on a momentum of their own that's driven, to a large extent, by the court and not so much by the plaintiffs, which is why, which is why, which is why often litigated cases that were so -- the skill of them doesn't compare to the scale of round v. board of education and yet they are important cases. yes, i would suggest that if one is going to listen to that kind of dissent, one has to be committed to a variety of approaches to lawyering as well as to integrating political tactics. when i say political tactics, i don't only mean lobbying.

i mean protest had ticks of what the students are interested in to one legal program. a nasty mathews and her approach to dissent, yes, i think it's important to think about the ways in which the legacy of jim crow incurred poverty. and course we do talk about those issues, right? we don't just historicizing species it does for instance we talk about the achievement gap. we talk about massive incarceration and also at those issues that relate to that legacy, but they are not historicizing and i'm not sure we speak about them in a way that is sent to the, that is

sympathetic -- sympathetic to the apple may mathews of the world. one of the things i think is important by the way is that ms. mathews and others like her -- i've only spoken about her, but i do think that she refutes in a powerful way to sense that as a poor don't really care about their kids are the education of their kids. she had these women who litigated to school desegregation case, were involved in the school desegregation case were motivated entirely by a concern about the welfare of their kids and get a lot of the rhetoric one hears about education policy and again, i do work in this area is very far removed from

that reality. other questions? i really love this part. >> i think you touched upon to some extent, but one trend that's occurred in the metro atlanta area and a lot of other places throughout the country has been the resegregation of a lot of public schools, largely among socioeconomic lines nowadays. do you think that we should be working in light of the historical perspective you mentioned, should we be working towards reversing that trend is resegregation or if it even worth addressing? i wanted to have her thoughts on that. >> scheuer. there is a great deal of literature that demonstrates a concentration of poverty, undermines educational

achievement. the literature strikes me as very persuasive and as for that reason might and it is important to try to break up those concentrations of poverty. now, having said that and i will also add that i think it's an portent. a value racial diversity. it think it's important for a number of reasons. to us, and endorses a general matter both of race-based integration and ses-based integration in schools. now, having said that, i too think we've learned that there are better and worse ways to try to engage in those kinds of reforms and it strikes me one of

the lessons of this history is that, you know, there many different communities and those communities should have the ability to choose their approaches to education. thus for some students, and integrated education might be valuable and they might not mind some of the social inconvenience, discomfort that comes along with that as they are integrating into an overwhelmingly white environment further students, that's going to be really harmful and harmful to their education. and does, i think in this is my bottom line, i would hope that

increasingly we could consider some kind of approach to breaking out those concentrations of poverty and integrating schools that focuses on choice. note that looks like -- any choice within public school systems, which is different from vouchers or other kinds of programs although i'm not saying i'm opposed to that. what that looks like a crack is so not exactly sure. other questions? [inaudible] [inaudible]

>> right. that's a good question. one thing i will say is that there have been cases in the state court where change has been made along the line that you suggest. so federal constitutional law is not the only constitutional law. states may constitutional law as well. and you know, i can only answer your question by saying that it depends again on how programs are implemented and designed. it really does, which may not satisfactory answer, but i do think that's the answer.

other questions? very good. well, thank you so much for coming. this has any thrill for me. [applause] >> thank you. [applause] >> we are here at the national press club talking with kristie miller about your new book "ellen and edith." >> i've been writing about women in politics for the last 25 years and these two women were very instrumental in that discussion of the wilson administration, each in a completely different way. alan wilson, charles childhood sweetheart got into the white house, taking off his.

after his stroke from edith wilson help to stay in the white house, said they were very powerful women in their own day. >> tell me what to do two women have most in common personality wise? >> they had very little in common except there were both completely devoted to woodrow wilson and what he needed and wanted. >> was there anything surprising new found in your research while writing? >> well, he had a girlfriend, too. and theodore roosevelt similarly said he would've got them as they? you with lake to paris. >> ditty of a crush on with each way for registering one? >> chester in wednesday the first really believe it could harm him politically, so she acted as though the girlfriend were a family friend and basically co-opted her. the second wife did not have any intention of sharing him with

anybody and the relationship really had come to an end before she came on the scene. >> had it either or both influence his politics and his policies? >> i wouldn't say either of them influenced his policies. he was a very deep thinker. he was not only professor at princeton can do to president of princeton. he driven a number of the excavator intellectual president. his first wife really helped him write his speeches. she knew a great deal of poetry. she critiqued his speeches. she told him when he thought he wasn't being clear enough and contributed a great deal to his thinking over all. the second wife really had not had that kind of education, but she worked very, very closely with them all during his presidency and when he suffered a massive stroke 18 months before the end, she knew his mind so well that she was really able to carry on, even though he was ill. >> thank you very much for your time. >> tha