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>> other than in people's imaginations it really does exist. located southern nevada 75 miles north of las vegas. it is in a much bigger parcel of land that is the largest federally restricted piece of real estate in the united states about the size of connecticut called nevada

test and training range. inside they're there is 1,350 square mile parcel called the nevada test site. that is divided into quadrants. quadra members have changed and shifted and have gone underground over the years but in essence it is number one through 30 with some missing mysteriously. area $0.51 just outside of the nevada test site in sight -- inside the crater parcel of the test and training range. it is there that that the basis of my book centers and that is where many of the most secret and most alarming perhaps national security projects took place but also many of the most fantastic was that kept us

a, arguably and kept us out of world war iii with the russians and helped our pilots in vietnam and great things went on there and continue to go on today. with that said i will read two paragraphs about what speaks to what the book is. when i was researching the book i could interview a total of 74 men who had greater, unprecedented access to area 51. 32 would your worked up the base for extended periods of time. 20 of them i tell about them in my book one of those is us cia pilot named ken collins he is flying the a 12 oxcart which was the cia original mach three that flew at 90,000 feet.

mach three is three times the speed of sound at 90,000 feet which is 17 miles up. this is in the 1960's so it was radical science and technology at the time and the spy plane was built to takeover after the youtube spy plane program was outbid by gary powers was shot down over the soviet union. >> collins push the aircraft and in another 45 seconds he would be out of the danger zone. nearing 85,000 feet, the inevitable tiny black dot began to appear on that aircraft windshield. sporadic at first like the first drops of summer rain.

only a few months earlier scientist at area 51 were baffled by those black dots. they were worried it was a high atmosphere corrosion until the mystery was solved in the labrador turns out they were dead bugs cycling around in the upper atmosphere blasted into the jet stream by the world touse superpowers' raleigh of thermonuclear bomb struck a they were killed in the blast and sent aloft 90,000 feet in the ensuing mushroom cloud as they gained orbit. when i first came across that detail i thought it was incredible. what on earth or that high earth are dead bugs doing circling around? i did not understand been 43 years old and not having lived through the cold war to the extent of my sources did, it didn't make much sense. in essence it is an analogy

of what area 51 is. it was set up to conduct espionage on the soviet union. the cia began building the base and 1955 with the u-2 spy plane because the cia wanted to spy on russia to see what they were doing. one of the other men i interviewed was harvey who just past two months ago which is an interesting side note. the men i interviewed are in the last chapter of their lives. but he explained to me what it was like to be the first man to fly over the soviet union in the youtube and yes he agitated nikita khrushchev greatly and

yes, there was a lot of fallout between the eisenhower administration and the soviets over the spying going on. wrap the same time, what hervey brought back in the film canisters of his u-2 plane was over 400,000 square feet of film and spy footage about what was going on in the soviet union. as he said to me, the cia could learn in fact, the soviets were not lining up for world war iii iras many members of the air force wanted to believe. you may call him an antagonistic in my book. if you consider the cia's job is to prevent -- present intelligence based on fact or speculation that is what

the two spy plane did for us. that is an important notion that the same time there'll other elements that were pushing science as the right in the book and here is where i get into the more dangerous areas and questions i would like leaders to be able to ask of themselves about whether or not pushing science is necessarily a good thing. right around that time, or if you back up after world war ii we had an atomic bomb then when we found out the russians already have the atomic bomb, there is a big movement to creating a bigger bomb which is how they got so high. the father of the atomic

bomb oppose that on moral grounds saying it was not a good idea to create a weapon that was larger than the target. in other words, this sermonettes -- nuclear bomb is so big it would not wipe out the military installation but a whole city. the thermonuclear bomb that ken collins flew through was 10 megatons. that was big enough if dropped on manhattan would wipe out all five boroughs killing 75% of the population down to washington d.c. over time. so obviously that is a bomb bigger than the target. in my book, one of the more interesting analogies it is area 51 veitch right to present war. but is what the cia was

doing but on the other side of the fence at the atomic bombing range department of defense was practicing have to have a nuclear war. this spy plane was called the 812 of scar although most people probably have never heard of it it could only be classified by the cia in 2007, 50 years after its drawings and a physicist to did those original drawings to help build that for the cia but the etfs etfs -- i.d.'s that you could have a war but not have one. but they probably have never seen or heard of the oxcart but the cousin is very a famous, i don't know if it

is a military crowd, but the famous black bird of the airforce that went to mock three that stood for originally reconnaissance strike by president johnson bungled it so they did not want to correct him so they corrected the plane. reconnaissance strike when they decide to take over the espionage program, the idea was was to have this biplane to photograph what to follow-up the bombing with. that is one of the more interesting parts or provocative parts of my book that i hope people will read

to think about with the federal organizations that we have how they fight with one another on the secret programs that on balance keeps us safer and more secure. sometimes entering into the area of recklessness. i write about that in the book with some of the weapons tests that we did and then there is a program they had called project 57 in the days of the security guard who worked on the program at the area of 51 his name was richard working overtime to buy a new car agreed to moonlight on this project that is the idea the defense department had what would happen in america f in

1957 of one of the planes carrying a nuclear weapon would crash on new -- american soil. one 1/2 a dirty bomb environment over create an explosion? at the very edges of period 51 in the area 13 they decided to do a safety test and in essence set off a dirty bomb and contaminated 895 acres with plutonium that is still contaminated out there. the idea of what is keeping us say for pushing scions are reckless what is important it comes to gather is the enigma of area 51. and i could go on for a very

long time maybe you could keep me on track i will take some questions from the audience and we can start a dialogue. >> this is interesting because it goes to the heart of your book talk about secrecy and how off budget this operation was. >> how is area 51 justified but you write the cia certainly it is a large part of this comes from the atomic energy commission's democrats try. now known as the department of energy have changed their name four times. they think if you change the name enough people will forget about it. but the original part it is interesting. one of the people in my book

i write about at length although he has passed so he is all from the archives but the first man to run area 51 in his name was richard bissell and he is famous with cia lee jennifer unnerve -- legend for a number of things would ultimately had to step down for taking all of the blame for the bay of pigs. i explained i think he got the bad rap on that but so it goes when you work with that kind of a business but asking about the budget budget, finding out in my research richard bissell was a brilliant economist became the executor of finance for the marshall plan something like $13 billion at the disposal to help build europe and a friend came knocking at his door one night in washington d.c. by

a and name of frank wapner and they sat in front of the fireplace and he said we need some money for the group that the cia and because they had dat mutual friend come of this whole new better than to ask many more questions and agreed that would be all right. that diverted from the planned about two and a half years later but then area 51 was up and running. >> several people want you to cut to the little men. [laughter] by told her that a billion book in the history of the civil-rights movement and

people only wanted to ask about martin luther king hist private life there are seven pages in the book and who were the little men that were seen in roswell for the first chapter? can you comment on the ufo connection to you of -- area 51? ufos and aliens? go for it to her. [laughter] >> nobody wants to hear about war. when there is little green men to talk about. the first i have to say something about my sources it is important to me as a journalist for croix interviewed all lots of men for this book and the largest number that have never got nine record and they go on record using their names. there is one exception that

is a source that i write about in the last seven pages of my book that people want to know about. this source remains anonymous because of security and that program that he discussed with me has not been the classified classified -- declassified. is an interesting distinction as a journalist to make between being able to source your source disinformation against declassify documents as i did with the first 367 pages of my book the national archives, library of congress, classified documents with the cia, department of defense defense, i can go on and on. lot of late nights looking at documents. then there is a point* where

i make a shift the way i wrote the book come everything in the beginning is written in a traditional journalist floor where you annotate everything and make clear where the sources came from. in the very end i'd lean into "the reader", who i trust has read my whole book and i say that is not why area 51 is still classified. it has never been admitted to buy any organization in the government. that is a fact. that is blacked out or redacted. sometimes they refer to a as the site or test facility but it is only ever located in print twice by me and i think those were errors. so why keep it secret? i say here is why i think

the base is secret and it came to me through a source. in the last seven pages i tell you what the source said and i make very clear that this no documents to fact check while i did get what i consider to be corroborating suggested evidence in the archives, the actual story is from one man's oral history. the source was an engineer that means he had a top-secret clearance for handling nuclear secrets. i examined the sources medical records, war records , i looked at death documents and the certificates and awards given by the atomic energy commission and work for the commission as a contractor

across three decades and a member of the manhattan project. and he told me that in 1951 he was one of five engineers asked to solve what is called a wicked engineering problem. that means something that no one has figured out and needs to be solved. but solving that will create its own new set of problems. the source told me that he was one of five people who received the equipment from wright patterson air force base that was what originally crashed in roswell that was a circular flying shape aircraft. it was not from mars but from russia and was actually originally a third reich design. much of water rightabout discusses a program called operation paper clip put into effect after the war

where america pelage third reich scientists to head up the aerospace programs and much of the military programs and who designed the apolo rockets for kennedy but russia did the same thing. they pillage to the scientists they could get their hands on. so the flying desk according to the engineers was something that had crashed in new mexico and the intent was for it to be a hoax. that stalin, and 1947, talk about the rise will crash, stalin did not yet have the atomic weapon, a truman did. they were bitter rivals. staal and made a move and fired a warning shot to say

you may have the atomic bomb but i have psychological warfare and then through war of the world's he wanted to send the flying disc to land in new mexico and have people come out that look like aliens. the engineer told me that their child sized pilots inside were the result of ghastly human experiments in the soviet union and that is what he told me. i repeat it in my book because i write the uncensored history of very of 51. many people take umbrage with our. a couple of the guys in my book and not happy and i understand. they have said we were john wayne out there saving the free world. no one likes to hear about this possibly kind of gas leak goings on in the

desert. this is what my a source told me and i stand by his veracity and it is what a lot of people are very skeptical but at the same time want to know more about >> host: i will ask one follow-up. the reason if it was not aliens to keep this such a deep dark secret was what? >> for keeping this reverse engineering the disk or the russians were doing this and caught red handed, why keep it a secret? wouldn't that be a victory as look at what they have done? there is evidence some of the papers that were captured from joseph mengele and that would have been a great victory for the united states? >> guest: that is a

question that i asked my source repeatedly. i interviewed him over 100 hours across 18 months and now it has been more than two years. we would discuss nuclear weapons things that i would fact check and at the end of our several our interview i would say can i ask you another question about the subject we are not allowed to talk about? that is the question i asked often. remember, keep in mind this individual also participated in the program so according to him a first hand witness reverse engineer the aircraft and that child size aviators. he finally gave me an answer which are right in the book and said because we were doing the same thing. the idea the american scientist also wanted to

push scions and did not want the soviets ahead of us in any program whenever it may be. another note, another journalist said how do you accuse united states government of such horrible things. my answer was, and i write about this while i don't claim to speak to the technology of the flying craft door the medical experiments of the alien looking person what i do write about what the atomic energy commission did during its tenure in during the reckless human experimentation they did, president clinton put together a commission in the 1990's after one reporter revealed the atomic energy commission had then

experimenting and injecting retarded children with plutonium in a state school in massachusetts. everybody says how horrible but people don't want to hear about that and turn the other way to say that is horrible and go on. i believe what my source told me and what he told me, the reason he told me is because it is a matter of conscience. the other four engineers are dead. it is just him. if the debate or discussion ensues, ast to whether or not this program could go on, or how long it went on for i feel that is an important discussion and why i chose to write about it in my book. >> host: you're listening to california radio program

and our guest is annie jacobsen author of the new book detail in her investigation as the area known as area 51. the contents and activities are much less shocking than the speculation than why does the government maintain secrecy? >> guest: we touched upon that but i will also say i take "the reader" through the '80s, one of the last programs i write about was the f-117 bomber the diamond shaped stealth bomber that was developed that area 51 after the air force took over but what has been going on since the war on terror began? it is out of my need to know and i didn't have any

sources tell me what is going on there now because that is obviously of national security concerns fighting the war on terror but a place where the drums are tested and i also writes another interesting story from about 1998. when they drowns, they are familiar with them now, but they began as the espionage platform that only carried cameras. they were used in the serbian bosnian conflict and not interesting to many people other than and the cia. but the late nineties the unknown -- unknown terrorist named a son of bin laden appeared on the scene and the cia considered assassinating him with a drawn and they would attach missiles to the drone. it was a radical idea and they got together with the air force and they decided

to engineer the hellfire missiles that are so accurate the hellfire comes that you push a button and it goes but first i have to test a. the president's concern at the time was this osama bin not a character is known to a lot of talk and hunting with middle eastern royal family is and what if somebody important is at his compound when we attack with the predator drawn? so they built a mock up of the bin laden afghanistan farm and that is where they practiced how to possibly assassinate without collateral damage. but at the end of the experiment, the state department got involved and a lot of legalities about assassinating someone and decided not to do it. >> host: how could area 51

secrets be kept from american presidents? >> that is a very tricky and uncomfortable question for this journalist. in the very beginning of the book i explained something i found pretty shocking when i learned it. the atomic energy commission actually has a system of secrets that run parallel to the president secrets of the national security system. that is not the way the constitution was written but what the atomic energy act of 1946 allowed. when the charter was written, right after world war ii, they created a system of secret keeping this the s secret slang is called born classified. those who check into this

say in a long list them to have one answerable authority. fact is the case and by the atomic energy commission could do so many things. those bond test sending bugs at 90,000 feet. that thermonuclear test involves 12,000 people in the pacific ocean and nobody knew it was going on when it happened. secret keeping is an important part for some reasons but also not a good situation for others. this source tells me the story in the end that tells me, i asked him, president clinton looked into the atomic energy commission, how come he did not find out -- find out about the rogue program that involve roswell?

he said he almost found out the he did not have the need to know. >> host: one question that goes back to the www.story, why would they said they aircraft to roswell on the mexico instead of a more populated area? >> that is not an answer that i have. of the thing that i write at the end is i am very clear about saying he said this. according to the engineer, there is some places in the epilogue where i speculate and i go to other sources and ask them like a physicist. could we really have had a still say flying disc? the physicist who invented stalls for the cia to recall some time in the 1950's kelly johnson who invented.

the planes for the cia had a radar test a round shape aircraft at the end of the day they decided it just wasn't appropriate for a pilot to fly. it was dangerous. i have as many questions as i have answers but not to about one. >> host: you're right in the book, the roswell airbase was an important base and white sands, that was not and an important area the most important area in the united states. that is where the nuclear scientists were working and where weapons were being assembled and roswell was at the base of the 509, the bomber group. one of the guys i interviewed who is an

amazing legend colonel acorn who was 92 and at home according to his secretary, writing a paper on my book 55 he just did an interview with the cape cod times talking about his role in my book. he is credited with the concept of overhead. and the first post war and nuclear test was a 1946 in the pacific, operation crossroads. colonel record was in charge of photograph hangs those bombs from the air. it was amazing because he explains all about the base of which they left it can -- camera equipment was fraud as well because at the time that was the only military base in the country that had bombers that could carry nuclear weapons.

that area could not have been more important to national security in 1947. >> host: is a possible that many ufos were actually and are u.s. military aircraft united states has been lying about? >> absolutely one thing i could source was the cia, the passion with the www.starting in the 1950's, created their own ufo department based on the classified documents. it is funny to read through them because the guys at the cia were still gentleman's buys a fancy themselves on the ground where science and technology uc in the memo where they have to do with a ufo why can't the air force

handle this? but our to act area 51 the u-2 spy plane accounted over 50% of all ufo sightings on the west coast. it flew at 70,000 feet and when it was in the sky it looked like a giant sold were circle and then in the '60s when the c.i.a. plane was flying at mach-3, even higher and there is a couple of great accounts from some of the guys in my book like kernels later a world war hero who are bright about was a commander of the base in the '60s and explained how often a commercial airline pilots fly on the west coast at dusk at

30,000 feet and they would see ox cart fly overhead at 90,000 at mocks three and people in the plane would see it and the pilots would radio ufo. colonel slater has to send the fbi to wherever the plane was landed to make some of pilots and the people sign that they would be in serious trouble if they told people about that. this only added to the ufo lowered and mythology. >> host: five oxcarts crashed as they went out to get the titanium cover and obviously the secret people went out to the desert and people saw them and it looks like it was something secret. it was but just not a flying saucer. so why has area 51 become

such a popular element with popular culture? >> most assuredly because of the conspiracies attached to it. we have talked about the ufos and aliens but there are two other serious that have embedded themselves. they are the lunar landing was filmed at area 51. i interviewed a lot of conspiracy theorist and also buzz aldrin. the second man on the moon and his testimony was a little more believable. [laughter] but that is the journalist in me of. but the link is that at the nevada test site, the neighbor to area 51, the giant craters from the atomic bombs, i was lucky

enough to go there with a couple of the guys in my book. these atomic bomb craters, the cavernous things that look very much like the surface of the moon. interview one-man named ernie williams who was eighth two were guide for the apollo astronauts in the late '60s and early '70s allowed to the nevada test site to put the mockups on their backs but the point* was to roam around the geology of the lunar landscape and i have great photographs of that but this gave way to the conspiracies of the lunar landing and also was conspiracy theory told me it is filled with underground tunnels and they connect to

other military bases across the country. i found out there are a lot of underground tunnels certainly at the nevada test site under area 12. area 11. one of the tunnels is 4,500 feet deep. that is very deep. starting in the late 1950's, the department of defense would use these tunnels to explode nuclear weapons to see what would happen two different pieces of military equipment, what could survive. that is for the methodology comes from. >> host: nobody would ask about this unless they read the book which is talk about the scientific recklessness that i have not heard about before it is we did a high of the two thermonuclear tests that they knew in advance could damage the ozone layer but wanted to

see what would happen. troupe? >> guest: when i first heard about this and made me wonder when i was growing up in the '70s we could not use aerosol deodorant because it was turning the ozone and i thought i don't think it is the deodorant when i heard this. [laughter] i heard the story from the nuclear weapons engineer who wired the bomb. there were two nuclear tests that were code-named taking place in johnston island in the pacific. not area 51. but the crew that worked there wiring the nuclear bombs went down there. the idea, the president's science adviser, james kelly and, he had such power and persuasion with the president that anything he did he did not have to

report to congress later in his memoir he admits maybe that was not a good idea. at the time james killian authorized the two headed nuclear weapons test, thermo nuclear bombs one was set off 20 miles up the other was 50 miles. but 28 miles is right around where the ozone layer is. and at the time i found in the declassified documents there was discussion among the scientist what might have been and could we make a hole in the ozone layer? this was an actual discussion. the answer was yes. we could, but we believe the bomb turbulence would close up the whole of it was made. so they went ahead with the test. >> host: a question about sources if everyone did -- interviewed is sworn

to secrecy and how do believe at and you have top-secret clearance then what makes you think they told you the truth? >> guest: what is interesting is some of the things i have been talking about like project 57, the dirty bomb test spreading plutonium, people said that exact question. but that is not classified. those documents i located in the atomic energy commission archives. i even located photographs. but it did not look like anyone have looked at them and i have a difficult time trying to find them. but once i could find someone who had knowledge of that, and was able to talk freely about the program and he could give me some key

words to allow me to look up the program and access it. it is called project 57 but everything was classified under 57 project. all of the programs i talk about except in the end have actually been declassified. but of what of them are hidden horror people are not interested in them by themselves. part of what makes my book interesting is i try to give you the whole landscape of area 51 and the nearest neighbors and what was going on there. >> host: another one about the aliens who were according to your source not aliens at all. for their autopsy's done on the roswell victims? another story is they lived

but were in a coma and why does it still remain classified? >> the first part? >> host: were their autopsies? >> guest: i don't know. they arrived as bodies according to my sources that area 51 and they were comatose but still grieving. one died shortly thereafter. the reason why it is still classified according to my source is what we touched upon earlier that the government decided to embark upon its own program. i will also say one of the most interesting and disturbing pieces of information that was shared the individual who was the head of the program, he was in charge of the manhattan

project and the president's science adviser and was in charge of the program that really is the mother of all black operations which is the manhattan projects. all other projects trickle down from the original idea with analogy and secrecy. >> host: you also point* out the manhattan project, the size and budget even the vice president had no idea that was under way. what was the budget? >> guest: it is in the book. [laughter] it was a huge. the plutonium or uranium being processed at the time in 10 is a common out what -- outfit pulled more power of the united states

electrical grid on any given night and the entire city of new york city but yet nobody knew it was there. that is how powerful a black operation can be. the vice president you refer to win originally going on was harry truman. he had no idea about the nuclear weapon until he became president. the part -- person who told him was nanavar bush. >> host: why name it area 51? explain. >> guest: that is the subject of a great debate. even my named sources say that is just a squadron they came up with fred according to my source at the end, the reason it is named that because in 1951 the original equipment and remains of the crash came there. >> host: have you been

called a conspiracy theorist? and that has been cast so why it also includes investigative reporters. do you get thrown and with those? >> guest: i will let you decide. but i have been accused definitely of being part of a government conspiracy to hide aliens because my theory does not push the idea that aliens visited earth. did get a letter from the a group in the u.k. furious with me last week when my book first published. they said even we don't believe you. [laughter] >> host: en the truth is still out there. why does area 51 not show up 10 the wikileaks? >> guest: that is news to

me. i do not know about that. see me afterwards. >> host: a lot of the book, taka reverse engineering it comes out with roswell, reverse engineering that went on, one of the greatest secrets was the big hand delivered by one iraqi pilot 211 of my favorite stories i tell it through the eighth highest of one engineer who worked out of various 51 on a number of projects. in 1966 and it made headlines when one iraqi air force pilot defected from iraq to israel in a soviet mig and at the time november the western world ever had their hands on the soviet-made.

with the arab nations flew in what the soviets flew. it was a very big deal to them and help them to win the six day war but what did not make the news is after they were done, and they made a deal with the cia -- cia to bring the big two area 51 and tv barnes is on the team to reverse engineer that big they took it to the nuts and bolts to figure out what made it fly. at the time we were engaged in the vietnam war and the pilots over there were getting shot down with this terrible ratio nine /1. we were losing against the big. so there was of halts on the dogfights while the engineers worked on the big at area 51. after the reverse engineered

that was called the technical phase then they began the tactical phase they put the mig back together and began to fly it in the mock dogfights in the skies over area 512 figure out how to beat the mig air-to-air combat. what is not known until now or only to the men who worked on the program is that was the birth of a famous top gun fighters go go -- wi-fi tours school. >> host: some of the top-secret projects one general desai is basically to go joyriding? >> guest: it is a controversial story one general who was in charge of the f-117 bomber program who became enamored with the mig and wanted to take it for a

flight. it went out of control and crashed in area 2520 miles away. where he crashed was write into a place where another secret program was going on. surprise. surprise. we have good mig program f-117 program, area 25. area 51. and a general who is dead. newspaper reporter was leaked information that the general have been flying the mig and the program was founded and it allows the other secrets to remain hidden. >> host: there is a number of questions about the advanced technology created such as mach-3 speed aircraft said why this has

not been released commercially. it is of the current commercial aircraft solely all-out a fraction compared to what area 51 technology have half the century ago to one commercial aircraft? >> i did interview robert abernathy who developed the mock three engine and it was super interesting talking to him. minder standing that it takes so much jet fuel to fly mocks three, up spy plane had dealt the shaped wing filled with fuel to get from one coast to the other in a little over "60 minutes." i don't think that would be cost-effective on a commercial airline with no place to put the bag. [laughter] >> host: and midair

refueling. >> that is tricky. >> host: and a couple of planes were lost. >> guest: i will say one other thing. i became a big fan of the cia science and technology department because the stuff they did in total secrecy without getting any credit. to refuel the oxcart it was such the incredibly fast flying plane come it had to fly at the absolute slowest speed an appeal tinker had to fly at the fastest at the same time and the oxcart to was almost stalled and that is how slow it had to go. >> host: why do think the government was prompted to do declassify and this stuff? >> guest: an interesting question they did not

declassify all of this but the age 12 oxcart and i don't know why. half-assed some people why and they have different answers and none of which is of a question. because if you try to keep the base secret it would make sense not to declassify of one of the major programs. but that is how i was able to speak to the original source and how i was introduced to the next to the next of the different sources to make up the narrative of my a book and to whom i am very grateful because it is an honor and privilege to talk to these men who are really a group of cold war heroes, and test, engineers, physicists, who were not only among themselves and now you have an interesting window what

it is like to be someone who does all of this work for absolutely no glory. >> host: there is a story you tell in the book that is possibly the most frightening part. it is a stage to attack on area 512 test parameters for security although they have not about this place for ever and watch it by satellites. they decide to test security a finer stand correctly, without telling anybody at area 51 and during the time of a nuclear test? >> guest: that's right. i could put that story together because the actual mock attack on the guard gate area is still classified. but what isn't is the fact the nuclear test weapons

engineers were trying to get a nuclear bomb into a shaft to exploded on a weapons test. the story came from the guys on the other side of the fence working on a nuclear bomb not from those that area 51 who cannot talk about it. but there was a weapons test going on and they measure to get the bomb into a hole which is the next number of years and has to get to a certain depth before it is considered secure or it could still be hijacked. there is different layers of security and the gentleman in charge of the program, my source was in charge and he waits for it to get down the hall and he here suddenly we

are under attack. they had to treat that as if the russians or enemy forces were attacking because it made no sense of the rise. but as it turned out, it was a test from the security people to see what it would be like, how the guards would respond so they flew a helicopter over the guard gate and vermont shooting act it. the alert went to the white house and according to the source, the nuclear submarines on the west coast were also put on alert. >> host: with a live nuclear weapon in the hall at that time. >> guest: the test went on buy the way. >> host: many people say many of the projects near area 51 including the f-117 was the