it will be harder. >> what do you see as a solution to the issue of personal liabilities to the states such as social security, medicare, long term? >> it's not complicated in the sense there's only a limited number of solutions that are possible. you can have a spectrum of social contracts to choose. should we raise the retirement age? yes. demographics is such -- you've seen the arables when we created social security, the life expect tab sigh was below the retirement age set. if an insurance company tried to get away with what they created, we'd sue them. nobody will be alive to collect their insurance, we'll sell it to them any way. we have not raised the bar with the problem we created. yes, raise the age for social security gradually.

it's you guys who pay the price, not me. [laughter] the other thing is we have to raise the threshold, the income level that is subject to the payroll tax. now it's capped and makes the payroll tax a regressive tax. .. mean by that? federal dollars deutsch to medicare, medicaid, social security and defense. defense spending we've got to cut, we know we can cut it by hundreds of billions of dollars without any real significance. on the insurance side we have to

raise premiums, cut taxes or stop providing as much stuff. we have to do that in each of them and the reason is not to be mean-spirited because i believe we can increase taxes on the wealthy. we shouldn't have extended the tax cuts. but the reason to do it is we have the dollars available to invest in the future which means education, infrastructure. those are the kind of things being squeezed out of our federal budget by an inability of our political system to limit the entitlement programs. understand all the cuts they talked at so far, i'm sure you've seen this. all the cuts they talked about so far come from to 12% of the federal budget that is non-defense discretionary spending. what does that term mean? it means nih, pell grants, the epa, sec, it means all the things we do care about and make ourselves competitive for the future. so the politics of the moment

have led us to keep separate sacrosanct the areas of spending but they are important. i'm the last person to say let's destroy the social safety net. just the opposite. but we are destroying our investment in the future. last question. i've given you everything i can. >> perfect segue. "the washington post" argued president obama is ideologically the equivalent of an early 1990's moderate republican. do you think that's accurate, and do you think there is a way that progressives can fully lay out a more coherent financial world view? >> that's harsh on him, calling anybody republican, kind of mean. [laughter] you know, but there's an interesting point buried in that statement. there is another spectacular book you should read by matt miller called the 2% solution.

in the sort of early parts of that book, he goes through -- matt miller is also a writer for "the washington post" and writes another book the tyranny of dead ideas that came out about a year ago. he compares and i think the 2% solution the sort of health care plans being proposed by john kerry and me because i don't know, george bush. that shows you when the book was written, to the health care plans proposed by president nixon. president nixon had a more extensive social welfare program than john kerry. john kerry is one of my favorite people. i really like the guy but it shows you how far the spectrum of our political discourse shifting of the course of about 15 or 20 years, and house or deconstructed our sense of what government could do or should do for people that came. now that addresses the first observation that moderate republicans 20 years ago were in fact more extensive in their social agenda than president

obama. that may be a fair point. what should we do in answer to simon's first question? get out there, participate. there are people, i don't want to name names but people say it really good things in the political world who deserve a lot of support who are articulating the different agenda. but even if it's 180 degrees, get out there and participate because citizen activism is good, and i will end by being bizarre -- declined comment about the tea party. even though i disagree with virtually everything they say of substance, it is grassroots politics, and that is what changes america. it's not politics. i used to make this point when i was in office. politicians, i'm hard pressed as a significant political movement in this nation that has been led by a like the officials. every significant social change has begun with a grass-roots politics and only leader in the game was embraced body elected

officials. so get out there and to the grassroots politics. thank you so much. it's been a pleasure to be here. eliot spitzer is the host of cnn's in the arena. for more information, visit inthearea.blogs.cnn.com. we asked what are you reading this summer. here's what you had to say. ♪ ♪ ♪ send a tweet using hashtag summer reading.

you can also e-mail booktv@c-span.org. up next on book tv, andrea will explains the founding fathers interest in the bosnian agriculture from washington's official in oversight of its mount vernon estate to jefferson and adams study of agriculture and madison's understanding of conservation. she speaks of the home of 18th-century botanist john bartram whose garden was visited by many delegates of the continental congress in philadelphia. it's just under one hour. >> thank you so much for coming. can you hear me in the last row? good. it seems a little bit like coming home. i am pleased to be here. i'm going to begin telling you a little bit of how i came to write this book because i was born in india and german and lived in london some people might wonder how i dare to write

about the american founding fathers. there is a logic behind it so bear with me. i came to write this book really by accident when i was researching and writing my last book the brother gardener which is about the british recession and i never thought that would lead me to write this book about the american founding fathers and gardens, because i had never thought of america as a bargaining nation, and one of the reasons for that might be that my first impression of america were shaped in 1987 when i went on a seven week road trip from washington, d.c. to san francisco, and that trent really concerned every cliche a german teenager had in the late 1980's. the drive-thru's and the colossal billboards, and -- but what stayed with me the most is the roads that lead us in and

the vast fields. so it felt almost like man had imposed its grip on nature. and everything seemed to be on a larger scale of the and what i was used to so there were big houses on, not much of garden and a little lawn are around it. so i felt as american as this larger-than-life kind of industrial countries, and it was kind of further propose to living in britain where a devotee seemed to be obsessed with gardens and this is what i was used to in britain. this is actually the garden of my eight best british friend, and those of you who have seen this already because i asked them to send me a picture and she sent me a cd with 132 of

them. [laughter] so i promise and going to show it again. this is what i was used in britain. and in america i'm more likely to see this, someone trimming roses but america at its roots is as much a part in the nation as britain, just a little bit different. i not only discovered how important american trees and shrubs had been for the creation of an english garden that health plans had been for the making of america. more of the protagonist and the brother gardeners which john bartram, why don't have to explain very much here i don't think that he's an 18th-century american farmer, plant collector who lives here and from the 17 thirties began to send boxes of seeds and plants over to england and over four decades completely changed the english landscape. and it was through bartram that

i discovered this remarkable collection to the founding fathers and the founding fathers plants. he's a good friend of benjamin franklin and it was actually through his collection with benjamin franklin and the company in philadelphia that he was to do contact with english gardeners. but as i read on through the letters and manuscripts and accounts, i came across an account of a visit of the delegates of the constitutional convention in 1787 to the bartram's garden, and i'm going to talk about that a little bit later. and i found an invoice to george washington, who had ordered hundreds of trees and shrubs for his garden in mt. vernon to read james madison had visited, john adams visited and the jefferson found time to come here while and he was writing the declaration of independence. and therefore, romanticized the depiction of george washington

visiting bartram's garden, and you can see this is the kind of back of the house. so, but it was really only when i followed john bartram's footsteps through the appalachian mountains in october, 2006 that i understood just how important plants had been for the founding fathers. because bartram had ghana plan taunting and had gone to the appalachian mountains. so i went down to the shenandoah national park and i looked at my map, and i saw that thomas jefferson monticello was nearby and i felt okay, i will stop and have a look at the writer's, of the declaration of independence, and this is monticello. but when i came up to the mountaintop, i was just absolutely astounded because what i saw was the work of the revolutionary gardiner who crafted his ground as carefully as he had crafted his words.

and monticello brings together the vast duty of america with a productivity of the land. and this combination was useful, i think very uniquely american, and i think that monticello can be left like a monument to jefferson's beliefs and philosophy and really almost like his letters i suppose. so anyway, john bertrand monticello became the inspiration of this book. so i realize that america's past for presidents had all used nature in one way or another for their fight for america. was a journey of many surprises and gave me a new perspective on the founding fathers. george washington, who i had known as a revolutionary hero, president of the united states, but i didn't know is he was more likely to talk about trees

rather than about politics. thomas jefferson, once i had seen monticello, i realized what a revolutionary gardiner he was. and then there was james madison, father of the constitution, but i didn't know is that he's actually the forgotten father of american environmentalism because he tried to rally the americans to protect nature and the forest. and then there was john adams, in paris and in london, second president of the united states. what i didn't know is that he was also a passionate gardener and he also went on a garden tour in angola and with thomas jefferson, and then another little sleight of george washington on his plantation. so, all four of them regarded themselves for most as gardeners and farmers and not as politicians, and when you read

through the letters, you will see that almost every single letter will mention at some stage seeds, gardens, harvest times, that just talks all the time about this amusement. so it's very much time as part of their life, and their passion for plans, nature, agriculture is deeply woven into the fabric of america. very much aligned with their political thoughts. so they didn't just create united states in a political sense. they also understood the plans for the making of this nation. and as such, we can look at those rows of cotton plants as a symbol of america's economic independence from britain. we can see towering trees and the reflection of a nation that is strong, a young, independent.

native species with patriotism and planters and their gardens, and drawn from the natural world brought plans into politics. so i think it is almost impossible to understand the making of the united states without looking at the founding father as governors and as farmers. and this is played out on many different levels. so the first most obvious level is really the economic level is the importance of good agricultural crops for the country's self-sufficiency. it works on an ideological level which is the jeffersonian vision of america as an agrarian republic. it works in terms of national identity because america's spectacular landscape becomes very much invested with patriotism, and it works

literally and symbolically because they all use their gardens as a canvas for their political statement. let me take you to the summer of 1776. america declared independence. manhattan west soldiers stroll the streets. the commander of chief and new york is facing 30,000 british troops. the largest fleet that has ever arrived on america's shores. washington has about half the manpower, and it has experienced battle and seen the ships as posing as the ones which are sailing towards new york. so there he is, george washington. as this city is bracing itself for the first and largest battle of independence, he's actually thinking about his garden in mt. vernon.

one evening just a few days before the battle of new york he sends out his generals, pushes away his military maps and sits down and writes a letter to his estate manager in mt. vernon, his plantation in virginia. with the chaos of the cannon looming, he is asking his estate manager to design a new garden, and he is talking about trees like this spring crabapple some, oaks and pines and the magna leah. what is even more remarkable than the timing which i think is quite remarkable is that he is asking only for the native species. so, at the moment, at the very moment as the young nation is threatened by the almighty british army, george washington seems to think that he should

create an all-american guard and with no english trees are allowed to grow their roots in the soil. he continues this idea after the war of independence and returns to mount vernon and 1783 he builds the shrubberies around it in the form of the house, and the shrubberies are all planted with native species only. but we have to replete remember and remind ourselves that what he is doing is extraordinary and remarkable because until then, american gardeners were trying to recreate the old world. so they wanted to have european plants, and we can see that when we look at john bartram. so he was growing here from all 13 states but his customs or english to read a few french, a few german and the few american

customers he had wanted to have his european plants which john bartram had received from his english customers so, washington is really the first american to create an all american ornamental garden, and the question is why is this important? i think it's important because he's making a very deliberate choice. when he returned from the war of dependence, he knows that he's a revolutionary hero and he knows mount vernon is going to be the most visited private home in the united states, and she is going to make sure the first thing the visitors see is an all-american guard and and this is a painting of mount vernon and you can see on the side of the shrubbery which are planted in need of species and this is his view from his house and if this is not a celebration of america's landscape and american species, i don't know what else it should be. so, john adams and thomas jefferson explore something very

similar when they go on a garden tour in 1786 in england. at that time, john adams is the american minister in london, and thomas jefferson is the american minister in paris and in the spring of 86 adumbrates to jefferson and asks him to join him in london to assist him with the trade negotiations with the british. but they had no luck. the british peace to the americans and had no interest whatsoever to assist their former colonies. they were so rude jefferson speculated it might be the amount of meat consumed by the british and this is what jefferson says that when the character is susceptible of civilization. [laughter] so what would you do in a moment like this? go on a garden tour, what else? because jefferson despite his aversions towards the british had to admit they had created the best gardens and they must

have looked a rather odd pair working together through the gardens because you have thomas jefferson all tall, thin, dressed up and french and it curled up here, covering almost 7 inches over john adams, a bit more stout. but despite the differences, and one being compared to a candlestick and a cannon ball, but despite their differences, they both absolutely adored gardens and they were both gardeners come and maybe in a slightly different way, you have john adams who is a hands-on gardener, who loves getting his hands dirty whenever he is away from his garden which is just south of boston is terribly missing his farm and his garden into his orchard or his garden and whenever she is involved in political battle, he says are

would rather be digging in my potato yard. so he has a volatile temper and is working off his temper by digging in the dirt. jefferson, a little bit more theoretical i would say. he spends time coming up with a letter to garden designs that never quite make it from his notebooks to the soil. he's an obsessive list maker who is writing long lists of different types of vegetables. he writes down harvest times over the years and counts the number of copies that could fit into a glass. [laughter] but we also know the accounts that he is actually out in the garden. he's sowing, he's really not doing as much back breaking work as adams is doing but they are out there enjoying the kind of

physicalities of it. so, as they go on their garden tour which is not allegedly true because if you have a look at their itinerary, you can see that the troubled every day between 40 and 50 miles. so, that is quite a lot you have to cover in the day and they see several gardens. so these are big landscaped gardens, so they don't have a lot of time to stroll around. they are literally taken off as many gardens as possible, and what they see our so-called ornamental farms which combine the duty with the working and cultural elements. so he would seek shrubbery but at the same time, he would also see pastor and this is of the valley you can see there are some sheep in the garden.

they went there and had a look at this and it is this combination of the useful with the beautiful very much time with their vision of america as a continent of duty but also vast land that would seek the nation and jefferson and adams would incorporate these elements in their garden in america. but one of the most exciting revelations for them was to discover that the english garden was not in college at all. in fact, the english garden was densely populated with american trees and shrubs, and i am going to just look through effusive you can get an idea of what kind of plants the english garden is like for america. the english gardener loved american evergreens because it didn't only have four makers, evergreens, they saw the

flowering dogwood as the french trade. what they saw where the plants that a grown over the past five decades from john bartram, and over the course of the garden to jefferson and adams discovered the english word rather crazy about american trees and shrubs. so in this strange twist of irony at the very moment, as with the colonies declared independence, the english garden was actually filled with american trees and shrubs, so jefferson who had for so long admired the english garden now could find it easy to get he liked the english garden because it was kind of american. so he could create one in monticello without feeling unpatriotic. well, let me give you a slightly more speculators example about the importance of the plants in the shaping of america because it is speculation to argue that

a visit to john bartram's cardinger changed the course of history. it seems a bit more than pure coincidence what happened here in the summer of 77 when the delegates of the constitutional convention visited the garden. they had assembled in may in philadelphia to work on the future of america. one of the most controversial points during the convention was how the power to the larger and the smaller states was to be distributed, and until then each state had one vote but now the largest state favored proportional representation because the would give greater leverage in congress and surprisingly the smallest states wanted to keep the one state, one-vote rule.

it was overturned and by july, the convention was at the verge of collapse. then someone suggested a visit to bartram's garden. on saturday the 14th of july, 77, seven delegates arrived here at 6 o'clock in the morning and it was by then run by john bartram's son, william, and i know it is obsolete but i am still going to show you a picture of bartram's garden. the delegate spends three hours here. they add my ear the trees and shrubs bartram's had collected from all 13 states and wherever they turn the basically saw yet another specimen from yet another part of the country. it seems america's entire floor was assembled here so the trees john bertram had collected from lake ontario to the flowering

shrubs william had collected and florida. here in bartram's garden, they saw the trees and the shrubs from the state's racing together with the branches intertwined. today's leaders on monday, they met again to vote on the so-called plan. the connecticut plan was a compromise which suggested that the house of representatives should be based on proportional representation while in the senate each state should have equal vote. the had previously voted on the plan and they had dismissed it. but to everybody is astonishment, this time round of the voting took a surprising course. three delegates [inaudible] and alexander martin from north

carolina, all of whom had visited bartram's garden. and they must have changed their mind after the visit because until then, they have all voted differently. so we don't know how or if this visit influence to them in their decision making. what we do know is the three men who changed their mind who made a great compromise possible hit all worked in the bartram's garden in all 13 states. so i leave it up to you to make that decision. but let me tell you something that is less speculative which is the importance of agriculture for the founding fathers. they all believe that agriculture should be the foundation of the american republic. jefferson, for example, said i think the governments will remain virtuous as long as they are chiefly agricultural. they were all experimenting with

proper occasion and jefferson designed the clout. washington was the first american to collect in a specially designed closing and it took me really by surprise to discover that america's first four presidents had been utterly obsessed with maneuver. [laughter] he wanted a farm manager who as he said monk as like convert everything he touches and to maneuver as the first transportation towards gold. jefferson called a pamphlet a charming a treatise, and i think it is a more delightful picture than john adams as the american minister in london in his carriage driving out on the road jumping out of his car into a pile of maneuever one of the same time the investors marching through the corridors of the palace in itself he's standing

in a pile of maneuever tearing apart the dung declaring with him and believe that this stinking pleyel was not equal to one. [laughter] so this obsession might seem a little strange to us but it's very much a part of their political agenda. so of course, forming the provided the livelihood of most americans at that time. but they believed that the independent farmers were bigger foot soldiers of this nation and with the elevation of the small farmer as the garden of liberty seemingly mundane such as collecting the maneuever became an elemental part of nation building. supplanting, plowing, vegetable gardening were much more than just profitable occupations.

they were important political act that of freedom and independence. there is the improvement of agriculture that his eight republican endeavor and medicines that the more prosperous farmers live in the country the more free, independent and the more happy they must be with society itself. at the same time nato give the distinct national identity which i think very much resonates today because after the war of independence, the 13 states had to mature from being just a war alliance to be a truly united nation, and was the constitution that brought them together economically, legally and politically, but it was america's spectacular landscape that provided this ceiling of nationhood. so here are antiquity and ancient ruins and the new world had to find something that was

better here than in the old world. and they found it in america's rugged mountains and forests. this is the perfect to completion of a strong young nation throne of the shackles of tierney, and the founding fathers understood that very early on an early 17 80's jefferson wrote a book which was called the state of virginia, and he wrote about the passage through the blue ridge mountains that this was one of the most stupendous views of nature and the natural bridge was the most sublime of nature's work. so they really understood how america's natural scenery could be used as a reflection of this strong nation and we wanted artists to paint what he called the natural wonders and jefferson asked the to paint the

national bridge so that he could present to the caprice and this to the world the cingular landscape which from bungling european would represent. laughter koza, as the previous generations have regarded as america's untamed landscape as the hostile environment and as much to the settlement and farming it now became an object of the plight. so artists began to paint america's landscape. until then they are concentrated on the historical resolution and in just going to show you a couple. this is thomas cole and another forest seemed so nature becomes this object now. the question is what does it all mean today when we work through the founding fathers and states and gardens? still visible of this life is. if you go to mt. vernon, for the simple, and walk along the green

and see the shrubbery entirely planted with native species that it's very much and all american garden, and john adams garden can be read in the same since. in the summer of seven to 96, adams was redesigning his garden, and he was concerned with the appearance of the establishment that was approaching a new state washington was considering to retire after his second term, and adams was considering at the office of the president himself and the picture of his farm was rather modest and jefferson's plantation the of several thousand acres and only heather of 500 acres. but nonetheless, he was very much inspired by what he had

seen of jefferson on his garden to work in england, and he wanted to build or recreate an ornamental far. together the kind of useful and the beautiful. the first thing he did is he made a part. it is a deutsch which provides the same security as a cents or wall so it keeps out cattle but allows sweeping views of the surrounding countryside including fields but also mountains. so, what adams is also doing is either opening or what he calls the prospect so that he can see the meadows and the western mountains. so the still getting america's landscape. the plants that devotee ladens, his wife, compares to 100 citizens in contrast which would

ban from the garden that was to monarchical. by the end of december, 7096, adams finally named to the garden after many years and i am going to read how she explains why he called it a peace deal. this is what he said in a 73 of the 14 years the peace and michel petit which i have contributed to preserve and the constant peace and tranquility which i have enjoyed in this president. so even remained as a kind of political meaning for adams. but let's have a look at monticello. he predicted a garden that was very much a reflection of what he believed america was a strong, beautiful, independent agrarian and sublime, and

monticello is a listing of tapestry of the things that had occupied him. flexible, the majestic view across the rolling landscape which is his celebration of the american landscape and the plants to lewis and clark brought from the expedition which were reminding the promises that lay in the west. there were fields near the pleasure ground, which were jefferson's manifestation of his belief in america as an agrarian republic. and then there was the such double tariffs. 1,000 feet long. this was of the experimental part, the scientific lab of monticello because jefferson very much believed that the introduction of the new useful species was an important patron of the task. and he said the greatest service which can be done on any country is to have a useful plant to its

culture. and it's important to him that when he is judging his services to the country, he is of course like another list and on this list includes the declaration of independence, but he also includes his introduction and the olive tree to this country. so he thinks this is as important as the political act. during the last years in the white house, he creates this ornamental farm in monticello and it's a carefully staged and sleep and a slightly different than of monticello. you can see here the kind of wiggling lines. these are the parts of the road that go up to the mountaintop. and she is sending his visitors on the rather complicated networks of the roads of the mountaintop. imagine you spent three days running to northern virginia and the untamed forest to much of a.

and the thing you really want to see is in the drive we going straight to the house. he leads you on this kind of the tour of the mountain, which starts at the contant forest at the bottom and then about halfway up he introduces the first agricultural element in the than a carefully planned 18-acre growth passed the vegetable tariffs to the long and then the flower bed. so it is a journey from the rugged to the defined savitt is very much a journey from the wilderness to civilization. and what we have to bear in mind is that while america is stock, in order to avoid the war and pressure britain and france, jefferson's introducing the

anbar duet in 1807, which bans all foreign trade. so suddenly, home production becomes incredibly important again and it's almost like if he wants to in print this on to monticello that this is as you can see almost like a necklace of fields just below the pleasure ground. let's have a look at james madison montt to earlier. like jefferson, madison created a garden for his retirement he had seen what happened to washington and jefferson when they retired and he had seen the presidential homes becoming a very important part of the itinerary in virginia, said he knew he would have lots of strangers turning up at the gate, so everything he did in the garden was very carefully planned. so what would happen is that visitors would arrive at the front of the house which you can see here and step into the

house, walked through the parlor and they would be led to the back. when they were standing in the back the would see the centerpiece of the ornamental landscape which is a flat, huge, beautiful lawn, which was literally embraced by the american forest. so when washington had gone into the forest to to to native species out and plant them in the shrubberies, medicine is the biggest further. he is letting the forest come very, very close to his house and he is celebrating the american source. the most extraordinary of all, and this is an interpretation of montclair they did a rather bad job on the trees. but have a look at the six buildings on the right-hand side. because what you would see right in the middle of the ornamental landscape would be a model slave

village. and these buildings, these six buildings are very unlike the usual slave cabins which madison, but we come had elsewhere on his plantation. these four buildings which were very sturdily built, gemini, a glass in the windows and they ate off decorative plates. we know that is very much part of the entertainment of guests to wander over to the slave village and have a look around. so we're other plantation owners separated their slave quarters from the main garden, either by placing them elsewhere on the plantation or fences or walls, mabus and places it right there in the middle of his ornamental landscape he puts a well-designed village into his garden. so the question is why did he do that? i think that he did that because

like washington and jefferson, he has problems to reconcile the idea of slavery with his belief in equality. he also knows that he has -- there will be lots of foreigners scrutinizing the slave quarters as low as visitors from the north and i'm going to write about this because he has seen that happen to washington and jefferson for not placing a model village in the midst of the garden he presents himself as a slave under whose sleeves are happy and careful, never mind the other slave cabranes elsewhere on the plantation. some, but i but like to end with something which is very different to do with medicine that was for me i think the greatest surprise when i was riding which is that even the environmental movement can be traced back to the nation and the founding fathers. 1818 medicine said in a widely circulated speech that the

protection of the environment was essentials for the survival of america. he did not subject to live in harmony. he said if a man wanted to live off nature in the long term, something had to change. and he said that nature was a very fragile economic system. he condemns them for their explication of the destruction of the forest and feared natures balance might be unhinged and he says something i think it's extraordinary that men had to return to nature what men took from nature, and these are radical political views because this is a time when most people still believe god has created animals and plants entirely for the views of mankind and at that time madison says humankind could not expect major can be made subservient to the use of man he says man has to find a

place in nature without destroying it suggesting as important today as they were when he spoke them. thank you. [applause] >> i would be happy to take questions if you dare. laughter to estimate the first question is always the most difficult one, someone has to bear to ask the first one. >> [inaudible] >> well, put it this way. it gave me the idea, but the research itself i had to basically plow through the letters of the founding fathers because i think what happens is

we historians tend -- writing history very subjective thing just by choosing what you choose to tell kick. anaheim fish if you look at the biographies of the founding fathers see from the 1940's and 1950's you would have not really written about adams standing in a pile of maneuever. that would have been almost blasphemous because the revolution, so when you look through the sources you don't really see a lot of them being gardeners, so i can basically come back to the letters to kind of pull out the bits of dirt historians had ignored, so i think what helped me was the research i have done in the book on american trees and plants. that helped me, and the idea for example helped me in that chapter about the garden tour of jefferson and adams and garden

tour because of the john bartram collection. any other questions? yes? >> when you talked about the delegates 6:00 in the morning, that what the impressive now. [laughter] [inaudible] did they have any description of their trip? >> de miniet i think 5:00 in the morning in the unclean tavern; is that correct, joe? yeah, with 22 ridges and they came out here across perry and met at 6:00. the haven't told william bartram about their writing, and there's a wonderful description where he is literally standing i think barefoot almost his arms, his sleeves, digging in his garden

with the delegates all kind of trust of my sleep, and there's a description he gave little bit taken aback at the beginning and very quickly collects himself and then shows them around for three hours. >> okay. over and there. >> tuna with your next book is going to be? [laughter] >> my next book is to do with gardening believe it or not. my next book is about venus when it moves between the sun and for six hours you can see it as a black dot facing the sun. it only happens once a century with eight years apart and in the 18th century that is the only way to measure the distance between the earth and the sun and holds the key for the whole side of the solar system, but you can only measure it several

astronomers in the northern and southern hemisphere work together, look at it at the same time, collect their data and then calculate, so it's the first scientific global lender, and so, 200 astronomers brought together in the 18th century at a time of the seven year war, france, england, the american colonies, sweden, russia, italy working together, so this is a kind of right across the world. for me it was a very logical collection point and the brother who gardens kept on the endeavor i described the story from the perspective of the botanist but to the endeavor is sent to tahiti on the transit venus. and the second book, sure enough, benjamin franklin is involved, as a kind of like propped up in both books and i feel this is an interesting

subject that the earthly pleasures now have a new pleasure. [laughter] yes? >> i was particularly interested in your discussions of the astonishment of the district of columbia. could you talk about that a bit. i was surprised there was so much disagreement on the founding fathers as to what it should be and particularly jefferson said it should be an organic and not important place. >> yeah, i basically -- yeah. i didn't talk about that today because it is a whole story of itself but i'm probably going to take three minutes to answer this question. so, the first four presidents of the united states on all passionate gardeners you would just assume that you are going to find the most amazing stuff about the white house garden. i didn't find anything, which you then think my god, my whole theory is not working here. i came up with a theory which i think it is quite neatly.

what happened is when they decide there's going to be a new capital in the district of columbia, washington and jefferson have two different ideas how this capital should look-alike and i agree that capital should be a reflection of the power of the federal government only that washington believed the federal government should have a lot of power there should be a strong federal government. jefferson believes the federal government should be as invisible as possible, so washington wanted to have this grant, amazing how big capital kind of sweeping and has a big market plan like four or five times bigger than boston and new york and philadelphia while jefferson believes it should be a very small town which organically grows from the middle. then when it comes to the white house, the design that

washington was the architect comes up with is to brandon has a 60-acre presidential park in washington who dot i's and the first president to move into the white house's john adams but he lives there for four months and doesn't have time to do anything so jefferson is the first to move in as a gardener to do something. and doesn't do anything because quite frankly for him, when he arius he sees the building and that is exactly what he wants to convey. so he spends his whole presidency try and to demystify the office of the president. so, he -- this is a man who is dressed beautifully in the french couture and sell. he dresses down so visitors say the toes are sticking out of his slippers, linen is sold, his hair is the shuffle.

he is intimate dinner parties and round tables, so everything he does kind of is going to be in demystifying and he doesn't do anything in the garden because he thinks this garden shouldn't be at the site moving power and the only thing he does in the white house garden is to put a wall around it to me get only 5 acres, so his legacy and the white house garden is to make it small because that is a reflection of powered. that was a very long answer to a short question of. sorry. any more questions? >> okay >> arne duncan x thank you. [applause] to find out more, visit the author website, andreawulf.com

what are you reading this summer? book tv wants to know. >> i'm susan collins, senator from. i've always been an avid reader. i usually have a book going here in washington and one in maine as well and the book that is most recently finished reading is scott brown's memoir. he's my colleague, the senator from massachusetts. this truly is an extraordinary book. it's very well for threatened -- well written and gives me insight into why scott brown and his difficult childhood. it's amazing that he has accomplished as much as he has. given what an impoverished and difficult to childhood that he had a. anyone who loves sports will love this book because in some

ways coaches and basketball saved scott brown. a book that i am reading right now is michael connelly the fifth witness. this is a series of books that involved a lawyer who is largely practiced his worn out of the back of his car. his lincoln so they are often known as the lincoln collier series. it's great fun and moves right along and it's a nice break from all of my briefing books to read this right before we go to bed. faugh this summer i am going to read my first e-book and i realize probably everybody else has been reading the books for years, but this is my first one and the one the repurchased cutting first stone is supposed to be a terrific book and i am looking forward to reading it. it also has the advantage that can travel with me very easily. and finally, i am looking

forward to the summer reading david brooks's new book called a social animal. i think david brooks is absolutely brilliant, and i am looking forward to learning more about his insight. understand from talking to him he did a great deal of research on the brain gathering together of many studies and it's going to be a very compelling book. >> gretchen morgans and joshua rosner talk about the 2008 financial collapse and the role played by the mortgage companies freddie mae and freddie mac. this lasts about an hour. [applause] >> thank you so much, david. we are really thrilled to be here at politics and prose as

you know an iconic institution in washington, and it's just a thrill to be here with you and engage customers as well. that's a really fantastic and it's wonderful to meet david and to see in person those incredible institutions that everyone loves so much in washington. now, josh and i have been a little bit on the book tour. the book came out may 24, and among the questions we always get or often get from interviewers, by years of the book, e-mail, and my e-mail account at the time, what surprised you the most about your reporting and the investigation that you both did to come out with this book? we all know that there have been a lot of books about the financial crisis. many of them recount the event