off malcolm gladwell and others who work in the area of business and how we make the decisions we do. and this is his first time in print for the general reader. he's super well regarded by ceo's and fortune 500 companies and it's a great honor to be publishing him. >> we're previewing some of the fall 2011 books. >> richard northpatterson in "the devil's light," talks about the another 9/11 attack in the u.s. and he talks at the commonwealth club in san francisco. this is just over an hour. >> the program is presented in partnership with the lafayette library and learning centers, glenn seboring learning consortium and part of the

commonwealth's club good lit series underwritten by the bernard hoseher foundation and you can find it on the internet at commonwealthclub.org. i'm -- i'll be your moderator for tonight's program and it's my pleasure to introduce our special gift richard north patterson acclaimed of several novels. mr. partisan has written a new book "the devil's light" which explores the idea of a nuclear threat from al-qaeda. what happens when al-qaeda steals a bomb and tries to detonate it on the tenth anniversary of 9/11. mr. patterson answers that in a thriller that features of lineup of interesting characters including a u.s. intelligence figure named brook chandler who may or may not save the day. mr. patterson was a lawyer before becoming a lawyer serving at one point as an assistant attorney general for the state of ohio. he also worked as a lawyer with the securities and exchange

commission. he has been chairman of the organization common cause and has written for such publications as the times of london and the "washington post." many of his works have been international bestsellers and i dare say that "the devil's light" will join that list. please welcome richard north patterson. [applause] >> it's great to see and you have read your book. "the devil's light" doesn't refer to osama bin laden's flashlight but amid for a nuclear weapon, and this is a very serious subject and people who know your career will not be surprised that you've tackled this subject. your other books, for example, eclipse was about human rights africa and the geopolitics of oil and about the israeli palestinian duplicate. you're known for tackling

serious issues and presenting them in a thriller format. and this novel is thrilling. but you have said that you didn't write this per se and it's also to inform them and, in fact, you took two years to research this bhook you interviewed a lot of high government officials and also went to the middle east and one of your main concerns is to let people know about the threat of al-qaeda. can you talk about that? >> yeah. i mean, people worry about the iranians or the north koreans but the iranians, for example, the north koreans have a return address and if they were to start a nuclear exchange, israel could annihilate them but the real threat is from nonstate accuracy. people that you can find. people like al-qaeda who are dedicated to jihad. so the question becomes at that point, how might they acquire nuclear weapons? and this is what keeps our national security and counterterrorism people up at

nights. you have to look at what would they do if they tried a variety of ways. osama bin laden met with the pakistani scientist and nuclear engineer shortly before 9/11 drawing up specifications for a al-qaeda bomb. he's tried to get stolen soviet weapons from the chechens and he tried to get highly enriched uranium in south africa but pakistan has always been his focus and the reason why it's the most dangerous place on earth. it's the fifth largest nuclear power. they have up to 110 nuclear weapons it's estimated. they have more terrorist groups per square mile than any other place you can find in that region. as we might expect from the fact that bin laden hid there in plain sight for a number of years. their security service, the isi has close ties to former and current jihadists.

they helped fund and start the taliban to fight the russians back in afghanistan. they funded and started l.e.t., the people who did the mumbai attacks in india. as a counterweight to indian power. all those groups have connections to each other. the experts believe that they would be -- and they are inclined to plan operations against the west, both at home and abroad. so the question becomes then, how vulnerable is the pakistani arsenal? how might someone get a nuclear bomb? well, there's several ways. you can have a rogue officer taking over a facility. you could have the clan desti d destined -- clandestined powers. or you could have my scenario where a a bomb in transit from its secured facility to the

front lines in a nuclear alert to india is stolen because that's where it's most vulnerable. so anyhow, you have a combination of weapons. a country which is hostile, a security service which has ties to jihadists and a lot of jihadists have been indoned by the establishment military and security and you have something that is really a worry and nuclear terrorism i would suggest is one of the great national security fears that we have. >> and in your book, "the devil's light," you have osama bin laden as the character in the book. and at one point without giving too much away, he issues a pronouncement that essentially says to the united states, we are going to bomb your country with this stolen weapon. there's a lot more to that. and a lot more. but can you talk about putting osama bin laden in the book and why it was important to do that? >> yeah. i mean, first of all it's really

sad when the main character dies and america applauds. imagine my surprise. [laughter] >> but what i did -- i have seen bin laden in 2009 and 2010 planning this nuclear operation with a fictional operational name. it was really important, i thought, to have bin laden involved in this plot because he would be. he was still as we know now an operational control in touch with other folks around the world. and one of his geniuses if you will there are roughly 60 countries that have al-qaeda cells which he's built up. he was organizationally brilliant that way he was also -- if you're aware of that peculiar mindset and an inspiring figure. so in any event, he's the one

who has been obsessed with nuclear weapons as he's the one who issued a fatwa in the u.s. calling for use of nuclear weapons, he's pledged the death of four million americans. well, how do you do that? certainly not one of at a time. it seemed to me that he was -- he was essential to the plot and essential to the story. so the question is, how do you depict somebody who is very well-known and is not well-known and who you can't interview? and what i did do is i talked essentially to peter bergen who was the last western journalist to meet with bin laden. i talked to numerous people in the intelligence community and tried to get a pretty good sense of what it would be like to actually be in his presence. and those scenes are as realistic as i could make them. the other point i would make briefly is that everyone i talked to who have done

psychological studies of all al-qaeda principals argued, a, they are quite well-educated for the most part and they are by the standards of an mmp they are not insane at all. they are rationally rational people pursuing an utterly irrational goal. if they were barking mad, it would be easier to deal with but the fact of the matter is they're not. of >> the characters in your book the cia operative brook chandler they are aware that they are irrational people and your book sets up polar opposites in terms of where they live and their philosophies but not in terms of their maniacal, say, interests. and, for example, brook chandler, the cia operative -- i don't know who exactly that might be modeled after. and any number of people, but he tries to go after and find the

nuclear weapon and may or may not be successful and we don't want to give away the ending. but can you talk how much of the real life of the cia operatives are in the book and whether that played a part or whether you had to kind of hollywoodize it? >> oh, no. if i had to hollywoodize it, i really wouldn't do it. i just think this stuff is too important to be fooling around with things that way. i interviewed cia undercover agents, past and present to get a sense of their lives and how they think and what they would do. i had hours and hours and hours and hours, several meetings with two people remarkably helpful. one was bob baird, the former cia agent, a field agent who was portrayed by george clooney in syriana, a slice of bob i-life and remarkably harold hunt --

howard hunt, sorry. harold hunt was the guy in the opening red wig in watergate. but howard is the most decorated man in the history of the cia. he was a legendary field officer. he was stationed in iran when khomeini came in. he was station chief in moscow. he was station chief of berlin during the cold war. he ran the cia war against the russians in afghanistan. he was the one who was in charge of the smuggling of the arms and one of howard's most remarkable stories when he was in iran when khomeini took over, the revolutionary guard found him shortly after he was paying off a double agent who was in the shah's secret police and started stomping him to death and they were well on their way when howard pulled out a gun and killed them both and he made his way to the embassy and he didn't complain about his injuries because he wanted to stay on the job. eventually got out and when he

got out and back to america and the doctor looked at him and said, the only time i've seen internal injuries like this was a head-on car accident and those guys are dead and he lives in incredible amounts of pain. he's a very, very brave man. but in any event, bob and howard really tireless in helping me, you know, get things right. >> well, among the people you credit in the book as well, leon panetta, the cia director, of course. william cohen, former defense secretary. >> one of my best friends actually. >> one of your best friends, right. if you were to read the list before you read the book you would think that you were, you know, very well-connected, shall we say? [laughter] >> and might even have, you know -- >> some people think i can fix a parking ticket at least. [laughter] >> but you also interviewed for this book -- among the people

you interviewed was mohammed, who's often described as the head of hezbollah. and so you traveled and you weren't just -- this is not just an armchair literature. and you went to a very well-known palestinian refugee camp about an hour south of beirut? >> yeah, i went there. i went to another area -- i mean, both scary places. i mean, you can't imagine the conditions under which these palestinians live in lebanon. not allowed to vote, not allowed to hold jobs in most areas of work or professions. i mean, that in itself is remarkable. the man who was one of the spiritual heads of the shia world was an incredibly interesting man and i felt it necessary to speak to those folks, the sort of to advance my knowledge. obviously, the government wasn't arranging it for me because as he and i discussed, he was on until his death the terrorist

list of the state department. but, you know, nonetheless, conversation with hamas, with hezbollah, and others was very useful to try to create a rounded picture what would be a incredibly complex situation if you're hunting for a bomb in the middle east. >> well, and i'm wondering if any of the interviews that you did with people who most americans -- they may not even know the names. they certainly, you know, are aware of the dangers of being in the middle east, had any of she's interviews changed your mindset of the middle east and think wait a minute maybe u.s. policy is x, y or z? >> well, that's a complicated question and you don't believe, obviously, when you're talking to these folks or any folks when you hear from them, you know, i had an interesting conversation about the bombing of the army barracks and the bombing of the

american embassy in beirut. and, you know, he was alleged to have blessed those events before the fact. and he said, you know, essentially without saying much about that, you know, you were on our soil. we don't come to your soil. i condemned al-qaeda for 9/11. these were acts of resistance. you know, not acts of terror and that's the point of view and it's actually useful to hear that point of view when you're trying to figure out how these folks think. so you hear -- you hear lots of -- i remember meeting with a guy who was head of the brigade in the palestinian camp in the west west bank and he's got eyes like an racoop because they are

trying to kill him. he carries an m16 with him. i don't know that you can do this work in the complicated way it deserves without doing some of that stuff. >> right. i know your books have been -- as i said, they're international bestsellers. a lot of people read them including well-known people. john mccain is one of the people who loves your work. and your work has been translated, of course, in many languages. when you were in the middle east, of course, mr. patterson i loved blah, blah. come on in or did they -- were they even in a sense a little bit weary of having this novelist come in? >> well, you know, it's funny you sometimes to have jump through a few hoops. but when i was talking to the palestinians for exile, and when i was talking, you know, to the ayatollah fa-lalla. one thing that you're aware of

is that they don't feel their point of view is very well circulated in the western press. so to the extent that you show up and you can write and some day something you say will get in print, they're more keen to talk to you than other people might 'cause they have a feeling they aren't understood. that they are basically satteriz satterized and cast in terrorism is a one size fits all kind of way. and they're quite fine on talking to you for the most part. there is a priceless picture of me giving him a copy of "exile" and him giving me a dialog in the western world. i don't think he was a fan before i showed up i'll say that. [laughter] >> let me turn to somebody who might or may not be a fan of yours. on 9/11, you were actually in washington, d.c. >> yes.

>> and the night before you interviewed ted kennedy for a book. >> yes >> i wonder if you could describe first of all that interview with ted kennedy but also, you know, within hours seeing 9/11 and what it instill in you? >> it was remarkable because i was going about my business. i was interviewing ted for a book on presidential politics and the gun lobby. and he was -- i mean, he became a dear friend, and he's a wonderful, warm generous man. he had people working to help me. we had a two-hour meeting he took his time with me. and it was really quite wonderful. i always so enjoyed being with him whether we were doing something like this or just in a social situation but in any event, i'm perfectly content with this, you know, day's work. i'm really feeling great. and i go home and the next morning i'm sitting in front of the -- i'm sitting on my bed

dictating my notes from the conversation with ted, and the tv is sort of in the background. and i look up and there's a plane hitting the world trade center, you know, where i had taken my daughter for dinner not all that long before. and i just couldn't make sense of it, like a lot of americans, you know, how in the world does an airline pilot fly into, you know, a plane. it just doesn't make sense at all and you think something badly and watching was a ghostown and i couldn't get out and it was -- i was struck as, you know, the world really had changed and i was not in new york which was horrendous but they hit the pentagon. and that certainly had a profound effect. everything really stopped in washington. but the remarkable story getting back to ted for a moment -- at the end of our meeting he said to me, you know, everyone knows how i feel about guns, which is poignant. he said but, you know, you really should talk to john

edwards because he has to deal with this in a different part of the country and you would really be useful about him. i don't know edwards and i don't know his people. don't worry about it and i'll take care of it. 9/11 comes along. and the u.s. senate and my make-believe is here and i'm stuck here until they're running the planes here. thursday morning i'm in my hotel. the phone rings and it's john edwards. he says i hear you're a friend of teddy's teddy wants me to talk to you and i always try to do what teddy wants me to do so what do you want to know? [laughter] >> and i thought that it was remarkable to ted that in the middle of a national emergency, and a real crisis that he had remembered that he had made me a promise and he falls through. to be his friend was to experience many, many acts of consideration like that.

>> yeah. and that's a great story. as one reads your book "the devil's light," 9/11, of course, is a central part of the book and one sees -- you know, reads about the towers going down and a relatively minor character in the book perishes that day and it becomes the driving force for the character's, you know, next events in their lives. they do certain things related to 9/11. >> right. >> when 9/11 happen, did you know right away oh, i want to write about this in some context or did you want to distance yourself? >> i experienced it as any american experienced it. it is a shocking event and you wonder what had happened and how america should react to such a thing. and then, of course, we got involved in the iraq war in particular and the whole question about whether that was an appropriate response to the terrorists' threat or something

else all together. but i think when i thought about 9/11 and i thought about the generation of americans who were changed by it, and i learned some time later that there had been a great influx of young people wanting to go into the cia after 9/11 because of that very thing. and my character book chandler is one of them. and i feel genuinely that one of the after-effects of 9/11 was an efuse of talent into the agency which ironically wouldn't have been there. it all came together the wonder of nuclear terrorism, 9/11, al-qaeda. my interest in the intelligence world and hence "the devil's light." >> a reminder you're listening to the commonwealth club of california radio program. we're talking with bestselling author richard north patterson about his book "the devil's light." let's take a question from the audience, but before we do that, i just want to say, in your

book, "the devil's light," the characters say a lot of things that i don't think people, politicians and others could ordinarily say for public consumption. one of them, for example, is -- you have people cia intelligence people saying, you know, al-qaeda -- they're a good organization, you know, tactic wise. >> right >> they're full of brilliant people. one of them, i forget the name, one of them calls osama bin laden a genius. now, one question from the audience, if al-qaeda is so smart, how was it that we were able to send in a few navy seals and take out their most famous leade leader? >> but on the other hand, look at where we are between 2001 and 2011, 10 years after the fact. we have al-qaeda franchises, if you will, in over 60 countries. we have al-qaeda of the arabian peninsula being a real menace in

lebanon. we have a continuing fear of al-qaeda striking. so bin laden may be dead, but think of the talent that it took to fund and build up from nothing, you know, a bunch of different people a widespread clandestined of 60 countries with the cia and the musad in the intelligence outfits of various western countries worrying about you. you know, he's certainly overmatched but he was no fuel. indeed, one of the reasons that i think al-qaeda has been so intent on acquiring nuclear materials is they are looking for an equalizer. they are looking for a game-changer and, you know, all they could do is try to pursue

the act of asymmetric warfare so that's why it's such a worry, you know, how, you know, the death of bin laden affects them in the long run, i don't know. i have bin laden's operative saying to him, you know, the years since 9/11 have not been kind to us in many ways, you know, and you do sense to some extent, depending what happens to the middle east the world is moving on. the reform efforts in egypt and tunisia, who knows how they will end. it shows a hopeful alternate than jihad and the fantasy of an islamic kalifet. >> speaking of which we have two

questions from the audience related to israel. one of them relates to israel's influence on u.s. policy. one of the main characters in your book is israeli, a woman, who actually is involved with brook chandler. >> those were the fun scenes. i want to point out that they're there. this is not all grim. [laughter] >> no, in fact it gets into quite a few scenes with them, but it also like real life goes over politics and so forth. and they talk about different things. but the question from the audience is, how -- one of the questions is, how influential israel is to u.s. foreign policy and in terms of this book that you've written, you know, can you talk about that because you do explore that issue in a book? >> well, in terms of the proposition placed on the table by this book, combating nuclear

terrorism, they're both concerned about it and they both ought to be. the destruction of tel-aviv would be the destruction of israel given its geography and all the rest and the destruction of new york or washington would alter our view of our futures of democracy, our commitment to the middle east, our commitment to civil liberties and all the rest. so we both have -- we both have a profound concern with nuclear terrorism. but they're concerned about them. we're concerned about us and there's a history of destruction between the cia and the musad, you know, feeling on behalf of the u.s. that they sometimes try to manipulate us to our ends which would be a shocking thing for an intelligence agency to do. [laughter] >> so we do have a cooperation but, you know, with the musad but it's also edgy. the broader question of the

israeli/u.s. connection to foreign policy is a very tricky one. and when you address this kind of thing, as i have, you have to be really, really careful because you're going to make somebody mad. but, you know, there certainly has been an effort on behalf of support of israel here in the united states to make a -- confine the discussion of the u.s. national interest vis-a-vis israel, under very narrow bounds because they are supporters of israel pure and simple and that's fine. i try to distinguish when i talk about this about a profound commitment to israel's right to exist, you know, and to never forget what happened which is, i think, a moral commitment of the highest order. and the indonance of the particular policy of any particular israeli government,

vis-a-vis, our international interests, i certainly think we have a deep moral interest in israel. i do not always think that the policies of benjamin netanyahu, for example, are either in the national interest of israel or in the national interest of the hundreds the degree to which one is able to say that or feels that in view of domestic u.s. politics is very limited. so i'll talk to people in our national security community who will say these things to me candidly but they're very, very reluctant to say things publicly. so until we have a healthy dialog about what steps with the palestinians as case one are really in the long term security interest of israel and the u.s. and have an open discussion of it, that's going to be a problem area in u.s. foreign policy. to me what israel really needs -- all you really need to do is look at the map is

guarantees a border security. they don't need just peace they need security. and if you look at what's been discussed for the parameters of peace between israel and the palestinians, it involves a nato or international guarantee including american troops, but to guarantee their borders which i think would be very helpful. netanyahu says that isn't enough. i want my troops stationed along the border. forget that that's a nonstarter. what he's implying international troops and u.s. troops can't be trusted to protect israel and at some point you have to worry that he is catering to a coalition of folks who are among the very religious who believe that israel is not just the territory that they -- that they have now, but the west bank. that this is biblical. and whenever someone thinks of thelon cal is not a basis of foreign policy but that's kind of what we're with right now.

in a way we suffered on both sides of that question. arafat was hardly nelson mandela, to say the least. [laughter] >> you know, i do regret the composition that netanyahu coalition -- i probably ought to leave this one there. >> okay. well, i mean, that is -- that is -- those issues are raised in your book. along with other issues that one doesn't often see in the american media. when the muslim world is talked about. one of them, for example, is the sunni/shia divide. >> uh-huh. >> how deeply felt that is to the point where there's, you know, of course, blood animosity in a lot of ways. for example, zarqawi who was killed, this jordanian terrorist who was killed in iraq several years ago -- i was reading his book and he professed more hatred for shia than for jews. and, in fact, the characters in your book talk about this. and it's one of the things that

makes the book a lively one. but can you talk about that, you know, the kind of -- >> yeah, it really is remarkable. for zarqawi to say what he said is something. because he didn't like jews much either. but, you know, he was -- he was about the business of killing shia in iraq. i mean, that was one of his priorities. and indeed there's a distinct antagonism between al-qaeda and the iranian regime in hezbollah because they are primarily shia and not sunni. and that is deeply felt and i sort of go into the genesis of it. but i can't begin to explain why it is that important, you know, some 1400 years later. i only know -- or 1500 years later. i only know that it is. so one of the strains that runs

through my book is the calculation that if al-qaeda, on bin laden's part, if al-qaeda does something which causes a military reprisal, an indiscriminate reprisal, it falls on al-qaeda. it's a win-win situation and the west strikes a blow against the west and iran strikes a blow to the west and that's a win for them and that's intensely felt. >> i want to get a little bit in your personal life, not too personal but a little bit of personal. and that is the fact that you were a lawyer. you were trained to be a lawyer. and around age 29 you decided to write a novel and so at that point you hadn't really written, you know, publicly any way a novel. and lo and behold, you know, years later you're one of the

world's bestselling novelist. your books are described as international best sellers not just "new york times" best sellers although the "new york times" has seen many of your books. but can you talk what you would want to write fiction as a lawyer and a very successful lawyer at that for many years and this is the kind of tail end of that. are you happy being a novelist and having given up those lawyers? >> i'm sick. i'm going back. [laughter] >> you know, there's people who suggest unkindly that the march from lawyer to fiction writer is a extremely short one -- [laughter] >> you know, i enjoyed my legal career a great deal, and i learned a lot from it. it was very useful as a lawyer. i learned interviewing skills. i learned more about linear

thinking, which is plotting. i learned how to take a complex set of messy facts and make them coherent a narrative which might be persuasive to a judge or jury. i learned a lot about human psychology and your clients will tell you the damnest things. and so -- and i also learned to write. there's a theory that legal writing is nonsense with dependent clauses that will put you to sleep that will put it to sleep. as a lawyer you're writing to america's tired and cynical audiences and you want to make it concise, and persuasive and you want to grab them with the -- with the nub of your presentation on page 1. so it's all good. the difference is that -- i mean, a lawyer is kind of a inbox job and you have an inbox and it's somebody's problem and

you go about the job of fixing it. but as a writer you have self-assigned work. you get to decide what to care about. you get to decide how to spend your time. and the most wonderful thing about the writing career for me is that my interests have merged for my work. i learned a lot from it, met great people because of it. made friends because of it. and because i chose this maybe curious path of reaching out to different subjects rather than trying to sort of, you know, replow familiar ground because it's commercially safe. it's been a great career for me. >> and one that has put you in the spotlight in a lot of ways. i know some of your books have been optioned for television. and this book -- >> i have all the horror

stories. [laughter] >> right. and i think a lot of people here in listening and watching probably know or are familiar with those horror stories. but this book, you know, has a lot of basis for a screen play certainly. i mean, have you gotten offers already for this book? >> i mean, i've had movie deals, a lot more movie deals than movies, which is typical. i say the movie deals are like sperm, many are called but few are chosen. [laughter] >> but i mean, i expect i may get something. but, you know, hollywood is a funny place. you know, a few years ago, syriana didn't do so well and the kingdom didn't do so well. i mean, hollywood is filled with people who are profound analysts of the marketplace. so they say, well, there's arabs in it and arabs don't work. i mean, i'm serious. you hear that. there's arabs in it.

sorry, you know? you know, if i'd known i would have put like italians in the middle east. [laughter] >> but maybe they'll do it for me. [laughter] >> you know, i do have a movie deal with exile with pampment pictures a very good studio which tries to do serious filmmaking so, you know, there's a thought but -- i mean, the things is people, you know, always ask me well, has your book been turned into the movie but the book is such a thing but the movie is really what you're after. and i've never cared, really, because the stuff they do, i'll be happy to add the check to my kids' tuition fund. but the book is just what i made. i'm not constrained by budget. i'm -- i don't have to ask anybody what to do in the book. i don't have, you know, a studio head saying, geez, shouldn't

your male character be a female and so on and so forth, you know, or vice versa. so if it happens, yes, it's like being hit by a moon rock. and if it doesn't, it's fine. >> well, speaking of female characters, brook chandler's girlfriend in this book does resort to violence. i think i can say that without giving too much away. >> yep. >> and she's attractive so that has everything going right there for hollywood. angelina jolie, maybe? >> actually, that scene was inspired by a dinner party where we had a husband and wife over who had been field agents. and everybody was talking about their work. and she was talking about how it's possible to kill somebody with a number 2 pencil and i sort of remembered that. i also remembered never to sit next to her.

[laughter] >> but, yeah, i am a romantic, i suppose. and i've never objected to relationships in real life or in books. and i do -- in addition to dealing with whatever subject i'm dealing with, i really do like to give people a good story. and i also like to create characters who are complicated, dimensional and in whom you have a real interest. you may not like all of them but you wanted to read about all of them. so all of it is very important to me; otherwise, i'm just writing a tome on nuclear terrorism and that's not my intention. >> with your indulgence, let me read what you wrote about osama bin laden in the book, that's page 66 for those of you who have a epcome of the book. in the flesh the man radiated energy and purpose yet he retained the aura of a poet with his gaze came an air of calm and

stillness. and let me flash forward to the character, the militant in the book who at one point writes this and this is poetry, the devil's light flashes golden in the black sky of doom, cloud in the shroud of ashes, our foe vanishes in to the past. so there's some -- you know, these are two passages that describe men who are prone to violence, of course, but yet have a poetic side to them. can you just -- >> yeah, that was a big part of bin laden's persona. he wrote poetry. and he is -- it was always described in personal dealings with him as, you know, rather gentle and considerate far from a screamer man. zawahiri, on the other hand, i gather was not a pleasant person or is not a pleasant person to be around at all. much more rigid, much more

didataic. we're talking about the pleasant characters of somebody who planned 9/11 so i don't want to push that one too far, but i think in portraying bin laden, it was important to get him right and see him as his acolyte who was going to put his life on the line for the plot would see him is an inspirational figure. that only makes sense because you're not seeing him when you're the reader. you're not seeing him through the american's point of view. you're seeing him for the point of view of somebody who's actually experiencing by his experience and you want to understand how that could possibly be. >> one of the things your characters from the west and the middle east have in common is that they're having to use different identities. brook chandler -- >> yeah. >> has to change his name. and the woman tops change her name and the characters, the

militants who also have to change. these characters are almost from the same family but different -- >> there are certain psychological similarities between, you know, people on either side of the terrorism divide. if you're working undercover. the ability to lie and assimilate a whole alternative identity and be fine with that and to bring it off is not given to most of us. i dare say there's probably not a single person in this audience who could do it. i know i certainly couldn't. you know, psychologically there are certain -- including an incredible commitment to an extremely inconvenient life because to go undercover is to give up a lot. and i have brook early on talking about the cost of that life, which he's painfully

aware. i was talking to a guy who was undercover who never did tell me his last name because -- that was not for me to know, but, you know, he's saying, you know -- and i have brook say this, more or less, i don't need lying to reporters because that's what they pay me for but it is wearing that lie to the guy in the next apartment or the woman i just met or people who have known me for years, you know, that's what really gets you down. and in the case you've given up your whole life or a big chunk of your life. >> now, your book came out, i guess, two days after -- two or three days after the announcement that osama bin laden had been killed. >> yeah. >> at that point, has there been no images shown of bin laden but subsequently we've seen images of him. and they show a person who to use a boxing metaphor who is on

the ropes, physically on the ropes and in many ways not quite the bin laden of the public imagination. did it surprise you after doing all your research and, you know, where you're talking to people about who bin laden is, did it surprise you that, oh, wow, this is really the bin laden that is populating my book? >> well, what surprised me the hell out of me was where he was. i think with the exception of the people who held the very closely held secret of where he was, everybody thought he was in western pakistan. everybody. i mean, and a few people voted for yemen but, you know, when i thought about it, i thought pakistan had to be right for all sorts of reasons. and my book lays out some of the conditions in which it would be right, the close link between the isi and jihadist groups. the long time associations

between al-qaeda personnel and leaders and the isi and their associations. between and among the isi and the other terrorist groups, he pretty much had to be in pakistan and he could not be there without the knowledge and indulgence of the help of someone. i'm not saying, you know, the pakistani security establishment is a monolith. you have to think that for pakistan, you know, giving up bin laden is not all that popular thing to do. the united states is not beloved in pakistan. ..

in the question is whether you knew it but was going to rant when he wrote that. >> i had a very interesting experience. in fact, i'll tell a story myself, which is why not in the consulting business. in two on four, my wife nancy and i are at the democratic convention in boston as i was doing research for the race. and obama had just given his select to find convention speech and his name was on everyone's lips and i ran into someone i knew it was that the obama campaign.

he said he wanted me barack obama with the media. i said that's very cool, sure. can i bring my then friend, nancy. yeah, fine. so we sit down but then state senator obama remarkably enough and we have about a 40 minute conversation. i wasn't surprised he knew a lot about the things i was concerned about because they are things a politician would know about. but nancy kucera, educational consultant overseas company conversation about problems in education and he knew a lot about that. what was most interesting was beating his -- i have known in the last and i know a lot of folks in politics. what she really appreciate if you listened. he really takes a fan. he turns around and we were having an actual conversation. the five minutes he knew about

this. you can understand why these folks have to sort of store up a lot of knowledge on the go so deep because there's so much stuff to think about and deal with. but he was remarkable initial order was so interesting. i came out and i said to nancy, you know, that may be the politician i've ever met. there's no way he's going to drink the kool-aid and run a 2007. [laughter] obviously the business of race and race in america and race as a factor of politics was on my mind, but he certainly raised that as a potential national figure. whereas he wasn't the reason i wrote about the race. he certainly was somebody i thought about why this writing. to any chance she'll do a follow-up novel with obama as they carried her?

>> you know, the problem with doing that is you really are constrained. as much as i do research, i like to make stuff up. [laughter] so he's been have to get along with having like one life rather than to. >> return to jupiter in the double site because he's not really in the book. it's >> you to your something terrible? you know, i always worry within the american president about what's going to happen -- the

people who are -- you have any mental institutions are allowed to acquire guns in their something deeply wrong. so i thought about god. in fact, a cassette recording of a generic president year. it saddens me to say that. that's why. >> well, you said you've known the last four presidents, so that includes upon the course, but obviously george w. bush. did you any talk about literature, perhaps having his political life thrown into the pages of fiction? >> i should say that i nail his dad rather better and in the

second president bush through him. there are enough differences in points of view on some issues that i don't know that it would've been very useful to sort of go there. he was always very fun to be around. he's a life like i and you can see why he succeeded of the politician. now, we never talk about -- we never talk about this stuff. you know, he and his dad are notably different personalities and they're both interesting in their own way. >> given your interest in the world and a mention at the outset that you are a former -- had a kind of cause and the fact that you write about a lot of different subjects, do you

have -- after for example researching subjects, do you want to go and essentially tell people, listen and this is how the world really is. when you take out her desk and change. this is the u.s. government, foreign policy or that kind of exasperating to stay in that fiction world clanks >> i do go out in his speech and i do hope my books will have some effect. i get letters. in fact, by a factor of 10 to one, more letters about the israeli-palestinian book and people telling me thank you. you've really cause me to look at the conflict in a more nuanced way, which is deeply appreciate. that said coming for it in about a number of problems and they've all got worse i think. so i do have some sense of my own limitations. i can't say abortion is over or

conference has gotten better. capital punishment is still a morass. you know, it's been four years since i wrote -- middle east peace between israel and palestinians have yet to arrive. so i may be the literary equivalent of putting into a friend who invites me to giants games to sanest box and every time a cute alias. [laughter] but yeah, maybe i have a passion for hard issues. >> are you ever tempted? i know this is something that is a no-no for writer is, but are you tempted to revisit your novels and say, you know what come i really didn't like an ending. let me twist that a little bit and put out a to point number? >> you know, i just started don't second-guess myself. i think it is as strong a book as i can. i reread a lot, rethink a lot

and at some point you just have to let it go and move on. the one thing i did because my first was published in 79 in my first novel was 93. so to reissued in 1979 book am i looked at it, i realized i was different guy in 93 stimulus and 79. huckabee won cringe example. something like i was dating a couple girls i didn't want to see. it really struck me wrong in 93. echo my god, that was lame. and so i went back and excised a few things. i mean, having had a more or less fully formed consciousness hour after that i committed some more errors. >> by their subjects -- you

mention you've written about a lot of subjects. either subjects about to tackle but in the sense you are free to go there because it is not beyond your abilities, but somehow to charge to stay clear commend the other novelists have done the deed already? >> you know, for the time you've written about partial-birth abortion and israel palestine comes as bad as you can do. i don't know if i can find anything worse than those. even if they tried. a book i thought about doing and i don't think i'm ever going to do with this thinking about doing something related to afghanistan. i mean, i honestly thought other than peril of being around afghanistan in late middle age, that everything that could be said about afghanistan, you know, pat levison said monaco. i'm a site that i could bring something novel to it, probably best to do something else. that was my position of feeling i was superfluous. oddly enough i didn't feel in

the israeli-palestinian context that anyways. i don't think that i have been. people still ask me to speak about that or read about it. you just have to pick your spots. >> pick your spot exactly. the middle east is really the world is a big spot to pick. whether parts about this book you actually had originally included, for example, maybe something about u.s. politics that you ended up excising from the book? >> you know, there is a lot that a deal with in this book. it could have dealt with the impact of a threat to al qaeda to destroy a major western city, which is one of the plot points in the book by how that affected the u.s. political scene. i chose not to do much of that company really wanted to keep the focus on the story at hand and keep driving forward.

you know, given the current recruitment story, dishonest, poisonous, utterly unhelpful book, you know, i can well imagine that if there's a potential act of nuclear terrorism that the finger-pointing and potential scape came to pick up away. i've got to say even faced with all sorts of national peril, you know, like a dataset we obviously have to do something about. the intellectual dishonesty is self-serving quality of our political leaders really is quite special. >> well, we will break for the applause from the audience. and of course, you had no more than the average person because of your doings -- personal doings with political figures to

tell you perhaps offhandedly, off the record, here's what i really think. >> i only hang out with in a fund. >> okay. but yet, you know, these conversations you have with politicians and others, do you find their way in the book perhaps then let me read something to people when a character who says the devil site, a major u.s. intelligence figure he says early on, quote, america as a nation had no clue about what the this is about. most americans still don't, talking about the middle east and post-9/11 world. and book chandler, to hear shall we say or perhaps not of the book says is a nation where he kicked it to wishful thinking and the staggering from crisis with the foresight of a two -year-old after 9/11 we

invaded iraq country and too often used the wrong interrogation techniques on the wrong people all because their leaders last contact with the truth. so yeah, you are spreading the word. the >> it seems fair enough. >> certainly does their feelings held by many people, but she don't have to be a member of the national security to feel that way. i know a lot of americans feel that way. and you know, you got nowhere to turn. i think i also have them say that the neocons sit around the room and tell each other things until it becomes the world any believe what they're saying is true and the democrats are like men manic depressants. you never know what wind there going to be in. tea party folks think the president are worse than al qaeda. so not a lot to choose from. [laughter]

but it's unfortunate that at a time when we are facing problems so serious, whether it is this one are the divisions in our society and the decline of our middle class and all the rest, that we don't have a more honest political dialogue among our leaders then i think we do. >> more applause. [applause] let's take a question from the audience. the question is, what do you think will happen to al qaeda after osama bin laden that? are they more or less dangerous? you can answer that, but let's hear you revisit that. >> i think in the short term they are more because they are going to be looking to establish their bellavance, whether it's directed by fellow jury orbiters. and they also seem to have a

taste for the spectacular. you know, if they did with hamas did for a while in israel, they could be bombing shopping centers. for some reason or another if they have a passion for the big gesture in the way the quote success, unquote of 9/11 would be proved to take it for them. i think certainly in terms of their danger of a terrorist threat, it is continuing. it is worse than it was after 9/11 because of osama access and organizing. and i don't think you find anybody's saying we can sort of relaxed now. the long run depends on a lot of things. it depends on whether we can use our counterterrorism matters. when kerry was talking about that in 2004, he was dismissed by some of his critics talking about police work, where you can invade terror. you have to detect and counter

terror. we don't have enough arab speakers and a lot of things we need. it may be true there true there is less a chance to maids in new york city. i wouldn't be surprised if that were true. so, there's that. the results of the broader question and abilities. i mean, how good or bad are things? it has to be fixed. that has to be job one. more broadly, there's question for regional security for israel. what kind of societies were going to have now in countries like egypt, which are going through change. there is an old saying, if somewhat cynical saying about these emerging democracies. one man, one vote, one time. anyone can hold an election once. the question is that the rebuilding institutions are made to vote meaningful.

indeed, something happens again. the muslim brotherhood obviously is very strong and well-organized in egypt. you just don't know how that's going to go. to the extent that there is -- the palestinians have a better life and this is a lot of this, hezbollah had soared into the body politic of the benefits and a or syria to demand that the government is like eventually decides to cut off arms from air into hezbollah is part of a land for security deal. of those things do bear ultimately on how al qaeda is because the more anger, more unemployment, the more frustration there is among people of the middle east, generally the better they do. that of the middle east is, the

worse. how that's going to play out your nose. >> we have time for one more question. your career has taken you a long way. i mean, at one point in your career you at the sec's liaison to the watergate special prosecutor that d.c. perhaps a little bit. you mentioned earlier that started this conversation. you said a lot of things in your life that could be described as surreal, certainly nixon's time that watergate was surreal. >> well, this is the final question then. any similarities between nixon and bin laden? >> i take that question back. >> all joking aside, personality the way it takes to get to the top of one profession. >> i think nixon was a really

remarkable figure because he was the most unnatural politician. i mean, bill clinton is amazing. watching him is just astounding. nixon had none of that. you could see the message from his brain to his mouth time to a smile. [laughter] aegis was completely uncomfortable in his own skin. anyway, the remarkable determination he had to achieve the presidency in the face of not being unnatural was really remarkable. the problem is that his demons and discomfort it enough. it is quite possible -- and you know, i don't want to be juvenile. but it's quite possible in certain ways that if you ignore what it is was a better integrated human being, you know, just in terms of someone

who has self-awareness and such. on the level of fanaticism, as dennis watergate is coming there is no way compares to really wanted to kill hundreds of thousands of people. nixon was tragic as they think most people agree. he was a person of great kids sing great demons and they gave him. >> thank you very much, richard north patterson, best-selling author of the soon-to-be 19 novels, the most recent "the devil's light." we also thank our audiences here on internet, television and radio. it's presented in partnership palazzi library in quincy bourque winning consortium as part of the commonwealth lit series underwritten by the bernard gaucher foundation. i'm jonathan curiel and not as meaning of the commonwealth club the place where you are in the know is adjourned.

[applause] >> thank you very much. [applause] [inaudible conversations] >> for information on richard north patterson and his work, visit richard north patterson books.com >> in your book, you talk about one of those life-changing moment. you are watching the justice thomas, anita hill hearings, what happens to train six clicks >> well, just graduated from college. it was like my permits for her. i ipod in my first laugh i learned in education about judaism, but i left feeling like i just learned how to chant. i was hoping for a spiritual experience. i didn't get it.

i felt the exact same way a college where i was in american studies major in the stuff i was reading this income danceable and it was charging. who was chomps like in its lack of comprehension to a person who doesn't understand that language. and it was demoralizing and i graduated less skilled, less motivated and i was a waiter. my education was their lack of an education. and so, i was waiting tables right after graduating from college and it missed my lunch shift and i go home. >> your friends as a way waiter you doing this? >> it was embarrassing, humiliating, best thing that ever happened in my life. the people i was always up to and trying to impress were looking down on me. i started to pay for my own. >> your parents cut you off? >> it was brutal.

that's why i dedicated the book to my father who cut me off and clarence thomas at the same time. both of their guidance in my life: faded. >> that's a good segue. >> well, i went from a weight chart that started watching, wanted to refer the tape down of clarence thomas. i watched the television sets and the television said tony this is is a bad man in the newspapers told me was a bad man. and i remember alan archdale, patricia schroeder balking at the steps, saying we're going to take a stand against the sky for a serial harassment. i was a spectator who wanted to see somebody mall, lions mauling and i watched the entire game. i went from wanting him to be taken down to wondering what's

going on here? on and understand what i'm watching here. i don't understand the color commentary that's on the screen, where they say this is outrageous. i didn't understand the bumper stickers they were going by ministries, saying i believe any data. i said i believe any of what? i don't understand what's going on here. everything i knew, everything i picked up a college in my american studies cultural marxism oppressor and oppressed, black people are always right. white people are always wrong. i didn't understand how ted kennedy, the ted kennedy, how howard metzenbaum, joe biden in the series of white privilege men could sit in judgment of this man who was the son of grand parent who are sharecroppers who raised them. he did a great dane right including allowing for anita hill to rise through the ranks

of those legal profession for jobs with them, where she never had a relationship with tenet on. he did nothing untoward and she was party to take that. i do not understand how it could be used by other privileged in the historic provision, what the mainstream media took them down for the naacp and the urban league and other black liberal fads and seemed to relish the tape down. >> career mentors? were going to get to later his brutally murdered. you have this mentor and it was around that time of indoctrination. >> the smartest person ever met was this guy named mike. i was delivering pizza in high school and he was just different, alternative and the smartest guy at our new.

in hindsight he wasn't the ethical guy. he took the sats and got them 1600. he was the smartest guy you could ever meet. any job that of you see santa barbara. and while i was going to college, he was floundering and doing drugs. during the period of time that he was my mentor, he was taking me to alternative bookstores to read about left-wing ideas. you know, he very much was sent to the class struggle. and when i started to have these epiphanies, when i started to get my job, i was aspiring to be an intellect and trying to understand his world view, trying to embrace struggle come at a certain point my dad said something that nobody told him. you need to get a job you do need to clean up, get your act together, stop doing drugs. there is a certain point where he started to challenge my mentor. i was able to beat them at the

game as sat scores. i still was about 400 points below him on that level. i started to gain self-confidence, self-respect that i could call them out on his best behavior. and i just started to move away from the sky and i got a phone call once a site is starting to move toward independence and away from the technology that absolutely dominated the skies consciousness. i got a phone call that he was murdered hotel room in los angeles and i imagined it was during a trip deal that went bad. to this day, think about how i never cried about that. >> you know, think about your parents. think about your story and how you had to negotiate with the professor to give you a higher grade secret graduate because he