>> the staffing level is now back up to about what i had a, or slightly above it, but, of

course, the regulated futures and options markets have grown exponentially in the 10-12 years since i was chair. and the responsibility for the over-the-counter derivatives market, which approaches $300 trillion, just in the united states, is an enormous new responsibility. i think that to be really effective and full implementation and enforcement of the act, the cftc needs more resources. >> thank you. senator roberts. >> mr. roth, regarding the registration of swap dealers and major swap participants, in your

testimony you mentioned the cftc's proposed rules allow provisional registration for swap dealers and major swap participants before all the rules are finalized. as each rule is finalized, they would revote review compliance with the new rule by each provisional swap dealer and major swap participant. do you think this process, this professional registration process, is the most effective means of registering new swap dealers and major swap participants? could there be a better or more efficient process, in your view? >> yeah, i think the professional registration process is workable in that it's an opportunity for firms to begin the registration process while allowing the cftc to face

in the requirements over a period of time. the provisional registration process provides submissions have to be -- there's not a deadline by which the submissions have to be reviewed and approved so i think there's a flexibility built in the system that will allow the process to occur while these rules are being phased in. so i thought it was a very workable approach. not to minimize the effort that will be involved for the firms to make this speciation i'm glad you added that last part. i noticed that your testament suggested the phased in approach to regulatory requirements for swap execution facilities, everything has to be an acronym in his house, so that is transfixed, for all interested sef on the same day. do you have any indication that the cftc will agree with your suggestion in absence of a

phase-in, how would one determine which sef would receive your regulatory services first, thus perhaps providing a competitive advantage to the earliest sef? >> in its full proposal regarding sef the ct see -- cftc propose the advantage we're talking about in our testimony. by providing all transfixed by the in by certain they would be able to continue to operate while the applications were being reviewed. i think the approach was suggested with our testimony is completely consistent with that which is again they should be allowed to continue to operate to the extent that they're contracting with nfa for one of the services while we phase-in that operation they should be allowed to continue to operate both to avoid an artificial competitive advantage for those that are their first. so i think the commission is,

pay zones rule proposal i think they're sympathetic with the and uncertain hope that they would be. >> i appreciate that. thank you, madam chairwoman. >> thank you very much. senator gillibrand. >> thank you, madam chairwoman for holding this hearing. thank you for your testimony, both of you. to areas of questions. the first is the issue of extraterritorial application margin but i don't know if you've seen it but a number of senators we sent a letter to, chairman gensler and to other agencies and regulators asking him specifically about whether they intended to have the same margin requirement on u.s. subsidiaries operating abroad and non-us firms. the concern is to create an enormous competitive edge for competitors if we have to satisfy these margin requirements on that issue. i would like your thoughts on

this issue. >> i haven't done much thinking specifically on that issue. you know, it was a subsidiary, a foreign subsidiary of a u.s. company that brought down aig. most of the aig financial products activities were in one, and they entered into an enormous portfolio of credit default swaps without putting forth collateral, without putting forth margin, without putting aside capital reserves are so, one should keep in mind about this issue that this can threaten the u.s. parent. it can threaten the u.s. financial system. >> can i just mention that regulatory arbitrage is always going to be an issue.

i think and chairman gensler alluded to this. if you look at the ct's experience in working with its regulations, the regulations create exemption for certain and be years if they're subject to rails or regime that is comparable to the u.s. regular toward regime. that part 30 regime has been in place for a long time. and has worked extraordinary well i think. what a key ingredient is again assessing the overall comparability of regulation and to the extent that a particular jurisdiction had margin requirements that were far less stringent than ours i think it would not qualify for that sort of reciprocal recognition. >> further to that question, if aig example, all other contractors the with u.s. counterparts, that was one of the reasons why -- and granted that all contracts in one direction assuming the realty industry would never go down and vowed to -- that assumption. but some of those contracts were with u.s. counterparts, and

under the regular framework that we talked about in dodd-frank, those u.s. counterparts would've capricorns as will and 100% disclosure. so if you know that's -- enough detail about the aig example, do you see those as being sufficient if we didn't have capital requirements for the u.s. agencies? >> aig financial products also had enormous credit default swaps commitments to european banks. i do agree with mr. roth, however, that international discussions, international harmonization can be a solution here. certainly when i was at the cftc we worked very closely with european regulators to try to harmonize, number one, harmonize

derivatives regulation, but also secondly, to recognize equivalent regulatory schemes are brought. and we entered into a number of memoranda of understanding with european countries, regulators, that recognized that they were -- that their regulatory scheme was essentially comparable. and i think that that is what the united states regulators and secretary geithner are working toward today. >> i agree that that is what they have said, and i also agree that we made efforts with memorandums of understanding, but, unfortunately, we've also heard from foreign regulators that they think that they're skeptical of the u.s. approach, that they don't necessary fall the u.s. approach or that they're skeptical about the pace of reform. and so my concern is that if we don't make a priority, because i

really believe we have to have international harmonization because if we don't there will be immediate regular arbitrage and that will be devastating to u.s. economy. if you billions of dollars of transactions that originate in the u.s. being conducted abroad, that's an enormous amount, or less investment in the u.s. and in oregon in a time and everything were trying to do here in washington is to create a greater opportunity for job creation. to make a greater landscape for economic growth. so what should our regulars be doing now, or what should the administration be doing now to make it more likely that we'll have harmonization in a timely fashion? because even chairman gensler said this morning he expects the regulatory reforms to take additional six months from his july deadline, but how do we expect to have harmonization within the next six months? and what do we do to make that more likely? >> i will ask you to be brief. >> thank you, madam chairwoman.

>> well, from my view and i've talked to both u.s. regulators who are working on this, and i've met with a number of e.u. personnel who were involved. i think there's a very good phase, strong effort going on right now, and i believe that there will be adequate harmonization. of course, as chairman gensler said, some countries are ahead of us. for example, canada. >> senator lugar. >> thank you, madam chairwoman. chairman born, in testimony before a committee at the time the dodd-frank bill was being drafted, we have many persons coming in, saying which is a regular business in the united states doing manufacturing, trying to at least get some pricing of commodities, or we are wheat farmers or corn

farmers or what have you. we are not aig, or we are not very sophisticated people. and as a matter fact they were drawing a distinction between persons in the backroom at aig or very sophisticated bankers trying to figure out how to game the system. and in due course as you pointed out, brought into a crashing halt. was there anyway drafting dodd-frank in ways recognized these more modest uses of swaps and derivatives as opposed to some defensive mechanism toward the cleverest of all may still be thinking of as were even talking today, about how to outsmart dodd-frank or the system we are talking about. in other words, the idea of transparency is very important, trading on exchanges, but is there any potential differentiation between the

sophisticated bankers and regular businesses and farmers? >> well, i think dodd-frank, title vii, actually recognizes the difference with the end-user exemption, senator. you know, commercial entities that are using these contracts for hedging purposes should be treated somewhat differently. but they, too, need transparency. they need protection against counterparty credit risk. so i think it's very important that the market as a whole should come under the regulatory regime. >> the end-user situation, nor did he believe doesn't make this differentiation so that this is not quite so onerous? >> indeed it. yes, not only does it allow them

to, and exemption if they wish from clearing, but also both the sec and the cftc chairs have said that margin will not be imposed on those contractors as well. >> mr. roth, you've described work of the organization and the great amount of additional application for paperwork that folks will be involved in, does this create such a burden that u.s. firms are likely to be competitively effective? in other words, have -- attempting to do the right thing, the united states as we see it, such substantial costs that we really are not competitive with regard to people abroad, leaving aside any desire of division, something that would be easier to do

business in some other country? >> to discuss it in sort of general terms, any form of regulation imposes additional costs, and the balancing act obviously always is that in a long-term perspective, the more well-regulated, not overregulate but well-regulated jurisdictions are the ones that thrive over time. and that's a difficult balancing act and there's always temptation i think to move one way or the other and miss the mark by overregulate or under regulating, but the additional regulation imposes additional costs. the question everybody has to answer is whether over a longer time those additional costs are a good investment. >> are you going to be able to identify, as we have a future hearings, as we shortly will, be able to quantify those costs or offer us some metrics so we understand that this is reasonable, excessive, out of

reach? >> we certainly can provide updated information on what the costs are. frankly, the problem, just another thing we do in rulemaking. sometimes when you're trying to do a cost-benefit analysis it's hard to measure the impact is something you prevented. you know, how many firms didn't go under? how many customers were not defrauded? is an inherently difficult process of trying to measure a negative, and that complicates the process but we can provide additional bad at it becomes available on the costs. >> thank you very much. thank you, madam chairwoman. >> thank you. senator boozman. >> thank you, madam chairwoman. mr. roth, i want to follow up on senator lugar's line. a lot of our agribusinesses, a lot of our, thinking of a manufacturing business that makes motors, you know, pages on

material that they use for that i don't think they understand the impact of what can happen. i guess my question to you would be do think there's enough clarity at this point, is there enough information out there that's the correct statement? >> senator, i certainly think until the final definition of the term swap dealer and major swap participant are promulgated, certain firms are not going to know which side of the line their own and, therefore, don't know what additional cost will be taking on or not taking on. so i think to the extent the question is how much can people expect -- >> impacted. >> i think it's hard to do that into you know what the final definitions are. >> i guess the next question then is if that's true, how can they make the necessary changes that they're going to need to do for compliance? >> and i think the approach there has to be that's what

think it's important to face and regulations in a time that gives -- a rule people cannot comply with is a bad rule. and i know that from personal experience because i've written some some of them. [laughter] and that's what i think the phased in approach is so important. and that's i think the commission is very consistent with the and supportive of the concept of facing these regulations in and they have to be phased in in a way that takes into account the importance to the public policy and the difficulty of coming into compliance. firms have to have that done. you lose credibility if you have rules that can't be complied with. >> thank you, madam chairwoman. >> senator thune. >> thank you, madam chairwoman, and i want to thank you and the ranking member for holding this important hearing today, and i appreciate the panels that are testifying. we have a lot concerns about dodd-frank, and hope to correct

some of those. i think it's important that this committee here work together to try and monitor the work is done by the cftc, the fed and the sec to make sure that these troubles with the bill, the concerns we have are not compounded. and i'm in particular concerned about the limited definition the cftc is looking to in state for the definition of swap used. there's been some discussion of this already with the first panel with chairman gensler but there's a lot of elevators and local cooperatives were provided information to produce addictive the. including them in the definition of swap is will only raise prices for producers and limit their chances to engage in modified hedging. so, i say that just sort of a preparatory remark, but i'm interested in knowing, i think the press answered by the previous panel, but if you could

shed some light on whether you think that farm cooperatives poses systemic risk to our economy, and should they be regulated? >> well, i certainly think that they should be trading and regulate markets. and it's important to have the dodd-frank derivatives reforms in place to protect them by providing more transparency, protection against counterparty credit risk. open and fair access to markets. >> mr. roth, comment on that? >> i certainly agree with the chairman, former chair said. if there's a farmer's co-op out that poses a systemic risk to the economy, i haven't bumped into a jet. >> okay, well put. i'd like to ask about the fact

is the cftc odd to consider when making these new capital margin requirements. obviously, should they consider whether institutions is an important, i think that's probably a given. but should they consider the economic cost of tying up capital margin requirements? >> well, i think there should be some cost-benefit analysis done, but i think in terms of assessing the benefits of having margins and collateral requirements, we need to focus onwhat happened in 2008 when the lack of such requirements played a significant role in bringing the financial system to a standstill. >> do you think they ought to

consider the benefit of price discovery that comes with having many investors in liquid markets? >> absolutely, and that's why transparency is necessary, and price discovery is best effectuated through exchange trading. so, i think the higher the percentage of transactions that actually go on exchange where everybody, all market participants, all commercial entities can see what the prices are, the better. >> should end users who are hedging financial risk be given an exemption? >> and exemption from clearing? they have been given the exemption. if it had been up to me, and it wasn't, i would have been concerned because, of course, they won't have the protection of central clearing, which

reduces counterparty credit risk. they won't have the benches of transparency, which would reduce their cost. but congress and the president of the united states made that decision, and i accept it. >> will users who are not or should users who are not systemically important the allowed to have less capital? >> less capital themselves? >> right. >> i think you need to distinguish between capital requirements and margin requirements. i think they need to put a margin. i don't think the capital requirements of small participants is a significant. >> final question. my time is running out, but i direct this to either one of you, but deeply the position limits proposed by the ctc will raise costs for smaller investors with money and

commodity mutual funds? >> in a financial crisis inquiry commission discusses this. we saw it in the summer of 2008, and it certainly made the financial system much more fragile. >> mr. roth? >> i would assume that the imposition new regulations generally increases cost somewhat. the question is always is there an offsetting benefit to the regulation and escape the judgment is whether the, whether there is excessive and whether

it is hurting the overall economy. >> thank you, madam chairwoman. >> you're welcome. thank you very much to both of you. we will excuse you and ask our third panel to join us. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] 's's in a few moments a hearing

on the possible radicalization of american muslims in prison. 

>> next the second in a series of hearings on the possible radicalization of american muslims. this one focusing on prisons, house homeland security chairman representative peter king says there are cases in which radicalized inmates have planned and launched attacks, or attempted to join overseas islamic terrorist organizations. this is two and a half hours.

>> good morning. the committee on homeland security will come to order. the committee is meeting today to hear testimony on the the extent of radicalization of muslim-americans in the united states prison system. the chair wishes to remind our guest today that demonstrations from the audience including use of signs, placards and t-shirts as well as verbal outbursts are a violation of the rules of the house. the chair wishes to thank our guest for their cooperation in maintaining order and proper decorum. as far as property corn, let me welcome a new member to our committee, it's always good to have another new yorker on the committee. and even though you on the other side of the aisle we look forward to working with you. that you for your interest in this issue. also at this time make unanimous consent request, congress and keith ellison has asked that a statement submitted into the record of the hearing.

without objection, it is so ordered. >> as ranking member, do you see -- >> yes, mr. chairman, i would also like to welcome our new member from new york who is on the right side of this committee. i also would like to get into the record letters regarding our hearing. i would also like to enter an article entitled present islam in "the age of sacred terror." >> so ordered. >> good morning. today we hold the second in a series of hearings on radicalization of muslim-american community. specifically on important issue of the threat of islamic rattle cassation in u.s. prisons. i welcome our distinguished panel of witnesses. it firsthand insights into this problem and we appreciate the ways to share the expenses with

the committee. the issue of the islamic radicalization in u.s. prisons is not new. this is the third hearing on this palm in recent years. this is hitting which is necessary to cut the danger remains real and present. especially because of al qaeda's extension to intensify attacks within the united states. a number of cases since september 11 have involved terrorist, radicalized islam in american prisons and subsequent attempted to launch terrorist strikes here in the u.s. upon the release from custody. they've also carried out terrorist attacks overseas. just last year senator john kerry chairman of the senate foreign relations committee released a report which said quote, three dozen u.s. citizens have converted to islam, possibly for al qaeda can. i will say that again. dozens of ex-cons became radicalized muslims inside u.s. prisons have gone to yemen to

join an al qaeda group run by a fellow american anwar alloc he is terrorists have attacked homeland several times and it acknowledged to be al qaeda's most dangerous affiliate. there are other cases, a 27 year old somali from minneapolis who has been indicted in federal court for fighting in somalia as part of al-shabaab. according to family members and court records, he was a gang member who it had been convicted for a number of crimes including assault with a deadly weapon, release from prison where he was radicalized he began his islamic ways in minneapolis and was on his way to fight in some way. the obama administration recognizes prison radicalization is a serious threat and prisons are a fertile ground for recruitment. janet napolitano and other state and local anti-terror partners are quote collaborating to develop a mitigation strategy for terrorist use of prisons for

radicalization and recruitment. the reality of the radicalization threat emanate from our prisons was demonstrated again last month when michael fenton was radicalized in an illinois state prison pleaded guilty in illinois to attempt the juice of a weapon of mass destruction. since he was planning to assassinate our collie, represented aaron shot, and destroy the federal courthouse an office building in springfield, illinois. tomorrow in new york, one was radicalized in a new prison, scheduled to be sentenced was leading role in a conspiracy to attack troops transports at an air national guard base in new york, newburgh, new york and to attack a synagogue and jewish community center in new york city. today will hear about kevin james, a radicalized form performed a hobby group called gis and hatched a terror plot

behind bars in california's folsom prison. it was operational. spreading from the prison to local mosque resulting in a plot to attack u.s. military recruiting center on the 9/11 anniversary and the jewish temple on yom kippur. jose padilla, note as the dirty bomb plot. while on the inside was led to a radical. pda move to the middle east. he was sent back to the u.s. in 2002 to attack our homeland with a bomb made of real active material and ignite gas and apartment buildings bringing down. prison radicalization is not unique in the training. last week the british home secretary emphasized the growing threat of islamic radicalization and unveiled its new counterradicalization strategy to thwart terrorist increment passionate recruit me behind bars but just as home-grown al qaeda terrorist attacks in britain including the 2005

somewhat attack in london, the 2006 liquid explosives plot to blow up american planes fly out of britain, and the 2007 car bomb attack on the airport were emulated several years later in the day states with the attempted. subway bombing, september 2009, fort hood murders, september 2000, in the attempted times square bomber inmate 2010. we must assume the same of prison radicalization. i repeatedly said the overwhelming majority of muslim-americans outstanding americans. get the first radicalization hearing which this committee held in march of this year was met by much mindless hysteria led by radical groups such as their allies of liberal media. countering islamic radicalization should not be a part, i would urge my democratic colleagues to rise above partisan talking points. i've had to work with the obama administration. it was the president's own

deputy national security adviser, denis mcdonough said just three months ago, quote al qaeda is increasing attempting to recruit and radicalized people to terrorism through the training. the threat is real and it is rising. al qaeda is trying to convince muslim-americans to reject the country and the fellow americans but that was the presence of deputy secretary national security adviser. the department of homeland security formulate a comprehensive plan to stop radicalization, terrorist radicalization and recruitment and american prisoners. so i ask democratic members to join with the obama administration in a belgian the reality and the severity of these threats and work with us here in the committee. we look forward to your assistance and again i think the witnesses for being here today. i look forward to testimony and i would recognize the distinguished ranking member tom mississippi, mr. thompson. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman. i welcome our panel of witnesses today. as you know, the united states

has the highest incarceration rate in the world, more than to put 3 million people are locked up in america. approximately one-third of these prisoners have some form of religious affiliation to islam is the fastest growing religion among prison. about 80% of those join a religion while in prison turn to islam. study showed the typical inmate who converts to islam is poor, black, upset about racism, and not particularly interested in middle east politics. in preparation for this hearing, my staff spoke with a representative from the bureau of prison, the state prison officials from across the country. i regret that none of them are here to testify today. the bureau of prison and state officials informed us that they routinely require religious staff, including a mom, rabbi increase to undergo rigorous

that income including british credentials, background checks and personal interviews. they tell us that any religious book and recorded message used must be screened and guards monitor the services. when we asked about radicalization i outside influences, they told us that prisons do not have internet access, and all non-lethal mail is opened, read, sometimes since but judging from these accounts, it would seem that opportunities for radicalization are few. and the evidence bears that out. according to the congressional research service, up to 43 violent attacks carried out by muslims since 9/11, there were only two clear cases of radicalized released prisoners plotting a terrorist act. judging from this evidence, i think it's safe to conclude that

the risk of terrorism originating from muslim converts in u.s. prisons is small. limiting this committee to oversight of radicalization to one religious, religion and ignores threats posed by violent extremists of all stripes. and there are other threats to be concerned about. according to the national gang intelligence center, a study on january 2009, approximately 147,000 documented gang members are incarcerated in federal, state and local jails. operational gains within these prisons pose a security threat, not only within prison walls, but also in our communities. the ability of leaders of these criminal enterprises to control and direct operations outside of prisons should not be ignored. further, the violent right wing

of many of these gangs must be discussed. let us not forget james byrd was dragged to his death on a back road in texas by right wing gang members who were radicalized in jail. clearly, willingness to use violence, undermine order and commit mayhem does not depend on religious beliefs of political ideology. in may, the committee gave -- held a hearing assessing the threat to the nation security following the death of osama bin laden. at that hearing we learned about terror aspirations launch attacks. earlier this month an american-born spokesman for an al qaeda released a video called on muslims to commit violent acts on american by taking branch of the gun show loophole. he told his viewers that in this country you can buy a fully

automatic assault rifle without a background check at most local gun shows. and he is correct. in march the gao reported that almost 250 people on a terror watch list were cleared to purchase firearms last year alone. in that hearing the expert testimony underscored that our greatest threat may be from lone wolves and solitary actress. his video has given these potential actors encouragement, advice. mr. chairman, as we consider a threat to this nation security, let us focus on eliminating known security gaps. we are not endangered by people are already locked up. in assessing risk we must look at the evidence. we are placed at risk by gangs who use prisons as a base of criminal operations. we are a place at risk by lone

wolves exporting a gun show loophole. i look for to working with you on your legislation and close this known secure get. working together, we can reduce the risk to our nation, and dangers people roaming the streets of america. i yield back. >> i think the ranking member for a statement. now we'll hear from the witnesses. i would ask each witness to try to keep your opening statement to five minutes. and then they will be followed by a series of questions from the members of the panel. our first witness this point is patrick danny lee the, during his service, mr. dunleavy investigators improvement passionate recruitment. is the author of an upcoming book the fervent show soil of jihad. i would add that mr. dunleavy is a very long distinct record for his activities in counterterrorism, working undercover and again, doing

outstanding job in the new york state criminal justice system. and without i recognize mr. dunleavy for five minutes. >> chairman keene, ranking member thompson, to see which numbers of the committee, it's a privilege to appear before before you to discuss the threat of radicalization in u.s. prisons. the prison population is vulnerable by the same agent responsible for radicalizing americans outside of prison walls. despite appearances, prison walls are forced to outside influences access those on the inside and inmates reach from the inside out. individuals and groups that subscribe to radical ideology have made sustained efforts to talk to inmates for indoctrination. in 1968 a sunni group was founded called, one of his goals was to establish a model every prison that would adhere to its

ideology exclusively. two of its first conference in newark state prison system, is regarded as the leader of the movement, despite the fact that his curly serving a life sentence for shooting two police officers. the michigan branch was led by another who died in october 2001 shootout with fbi agents seeking to arrest him. he died in prison prior to conversion. as his ideology moves through the correctional system in the '70s and '80s, it gained increasing number of converts, eventually assuming ideology was the dominant force in the prisons. then in the late '80s and '90s there was an influx of foreign-born inmates from the middle 80s, some of them were incarcerated for having committed violent acts against nonbelievers. individuals you have either killed, bombed or stolen money in the name of all law. they had international connection with terrorist

organizations such as egyptian and islamic jihad, al qaeda, hezbollah and hamas. after they were arrested and incarcerated they walk into the prison mosque and were hailed as heroes. they were inspired by the muslim inmates and by the muslim chapel. some of them were given a position of the civil service chaplain as their administrative clerk. this gave him access to a phone that was not monitored by security personnel. one of them, outside the, while serving his sentence in a correctional facility conspired with other individuals on the outside to bomb the world trade center in 1993. the jihad had come to america and one of its architects was an inmate. in 1999, several law enforcement agencies received information regarding radical is islamic activity in the prison system. authorities learned of which are

during pain -- a jordanian born in may. his group was interested in recruiting inmates in u.s. prison. he said his group intended to get inmates trained in the middle east after their release from prison and then have them return to the u.s. to participate in jihad. not surprisingly the jordanian born inmates prison job was the chaplain's clerk. the initial exposure to extremist jihad islam may begin in prison. however, it often matures after the release. 2009, four x. inmates were arrested for plotting to bomb synagogues in new york and shootout military aircraft with a single missile. they did not know each other while they were incarcerated. they met each other after their release was attending a local mosque connected to the prison ministry. that mosque was founded by omar. in 2003 whom are gave an interview.

he at the time had a cabinet department of corrections where he was director of minister of services. in its into he went on to call the 9/11 hijackers heroes and he went on to say without justice there will be warfare and they could come to this country. he said the natural candidates to help press such attack in his view are african-americans who embrace islam in prison. in other words, prisons were a prime place to recruit terrorist. as result of that the department justice lost an investigation for hiring islamic clergy. in its report among its recommendations, they said that there was a need for a verifiable body that would certified islamic clergy prior to hiring. to this day, no organization has been appointed to fill that role, nor has there been any formal determination as to have a vetting process would take place. or with the standards of vetting would be. the result of that inaction brings forth to cases.

a new york city correction in monocyte in 2007 was arrested in 2010 for attempting to smuggle dangerous continent into a manhattan house of detention. and administrative hearing in march of this year, he asked for his job back. he was firmly known as spent 14 years in newark state prison for murder. how was he hired? nenew york city corrections was aware of his criminal history when they did a background check, and they said that although a felony conviction would disqualify a person from becoming a correctional officer, that rule did not apply when hiring chaplains. he only served passionate was a certification of endorsement body and the city in this case relied on the share of new york. that organization is connected with the muslim alliance of north america list among their leadership october and others. the same organization also certified another prison imam.

in 2003 he was indicted by the u.s. attorney office in new york for providing material support to a suspected sunni organization in iraq. the inmates clerked at the time was a convicted islamist terrorist. jihadi fletcher finds its way into prisons even though it is prohibited. anything can be gotten in prestigious if you could try to wrap it up. about 20 seconds. >> including a pda or smartphone. i would not be surprised to find a copy of al qaeda's inspired magazine in any of the prisons. and i would just close my comments at that point. thank you very much for allowing me to speak. >> thank you very much, and for come and i hope the ranking member that realizes there was not an accident like that. there's at least two of us. [inaudible] [laughter] >> now we have a transplanted new yorker on next witness kevin

smith who was actually raised in my district but had the good sense to move away. kevin curtis serves as the deputy district attorney for san bernardino, california. easy for an assistant in a state attorney for the central district of california will be prosecuted kevin james and his co-conspirators who were convicted of one the most significant domestic terror plot since 9/11. i will say however the highlight of kevin's curriculum came earlier when he attended the university of north thing. without your recognized for five minutes. >> thank you very much. chairman king, ranking member thompson and distinguish goods of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today. by way of background, i've worked in law enforcement at the local and federal prosecutors since 1996. from 2000-2007 i served as an assistant united states attorney with the united states department of justice working in the know states attorneys office for the central district of california.

in july 2005 i became involved as the lead prosecutor in the investigation and prosecution of a group of individuals who were involved in a conspiracy to wage a war of terrorism against the united states government i murdering u.s. military personnel and jewish persons in southern california. these individuals were members of a group, gis which was gray within the california department of corrections prison system. today i intend to discuss the jis case and the conspiracy which was engaged in by jis founder and leader kevin james. his chief operatives or so later of washington, and two other cell members, gregory patterson. let me begin by discussing kevin james and jis. in approximate 1997, kevin james

founded jis based on his interpretation of islam while serving a prison sentence in the california department of corrections system. in fact, he remained in prison throughout the conspiracy and the resulting investigation your he preached it was the duty of jis members to target for by attacking enemies of islam or infidels. james identified infidels as the u.s. government and jewish and non-jewish supporters of israel. james recruit fellow prisoners to join they also sought to establish a cell or group of jis memos to wage war or jihad against the perceived infidels outside the prison wall. kevin james also created and disseminated throughout the prison system that document referred to as the jis protocol. in the jis protocol james stated that muslims must be allowed to govern themselves by sharia and that jis must which the

educational as well as the organization war or jihad. the jis protocol described jihad as the only true antiterrorist action, and a defensive battle against the aggression of theological impostors led by zionism. kevin james also wrote a document called no to writing move which was essentially a proposed press release to be disseminated following an attack by jis. james wrote that on missions that were to be done for leaving impressions the document would be left behind, and if 187 which is the california penal code section for murder were involved, a videotape would be sent to all major new station with a jis member reciting the document. washington, a convert to islam met kevin james in late 2004 after washington was transferred to the new folsom prison. at the folsom prison james recruit washington into jis. washington sworn an oath of

loyalty and obedience to james. he was paroled in late 2004 and not have the ability to carry out a violent operation on behalf of jis outside prison walls. james asked washington for the document known as blueprint 2005. he required washington to recruit five special operation members, preferably felony free, and trained them in covert operation. acquire two pistols with silencers and appoint a special operations member to find contact to learn to make bombs from a distance. armed with instructions from james in washington got quickly to work. he went to a mosque in california when he met gregory patterson, a convert to islam and another diapers washington recruit both into jis. and they swore an oath of oil -- loyalty. the operational cell now have three members and they begin to select targets for the attack.

ultimate deciding recruitment centers in southern california and a jewish temple. they documented their selection of targets in a document known as the modes of attack. the cell have access to a shotgun but also to fund or jihad and to purchase an additional fire arm they engage a number of gas station robberies cases of over 10 robberies in the southern california area. ultimately during the investigation, or during the conspiracy, patterson dropped his cell phone, local law enforcement were able to initiate an investigation based on the dropped cell phone. federal law enforcement on the fbi, u.s. attorney's office got involved at that point in time and were ultimately able to successfully indict kevin james, levar washington, gregory patterson on the charges of vicious conspiracy to wage war of terrorism against the united

states government. each of these individuals ultimately pled guilty to that charge and received federal prison sentences including 22 years for levar washington and 16 years for kevin james. it is my opinion that the jis case is an excellent example of the building of a federal and local law enforcement to work together to secure our homeland. thank you very much. >> thank you, mr. smith at our next witness is michael downing who is the deputy chief and commanding officer of los angeles police department's counterterrorism special operations bureau. he was appointed lapd in 1982 and in may of last year he was elected as president of the leadership and counterterrorism alumni association, and at the outset, we also express regrets of the committee. one of the lapd officers was killed in afghanistan march of this year, a reserve officer who is serving in afghanistan.

we look forward to your testimony. we thank you for flying all the way from the west coast to be with us today. chief downing. [inaudible] >> thank you for the opportunity to discuss the los angeles police departments view and strategy of his most important phenomenon relating to the evolving threat of muslim-american radicalization in the united states prisons. much has been written about this topic over the last five or six years. and just as we have seen a large surge in homegrown violent extremist targeting innocent civilians with violence, are plotting against the united states, we've also seen a surge in both converts and radicalization of those converts towards the violent acts. fortunately, there still remains a phenomena of low-volume. however, the radicalization of even a small fraction of the population holds high consequence for americans and innocent people around the

world. we have the largest incarceration rate, the largest prison population if any country in the world. and prisoners by their very nature are at risk and susceptible to recruitment and radicalization by extremist groups because of their isolation, their violent tendencies, and their cultural discontent. los angeles is known for its outreach and engagement with the muslim communities and the commensurate strategy to overlake community policing on top of communities that are either isolated, vulcanize, feel oppressed or are not integrated into the social fabric of society. the muslim communities are its greatest strength as a counterterrorism strategy. but in this context we recognize that islam expresses itself differently in los angeles than it does in the united kingdom, than it does in your. even than it does in san diego or minnesota or new york. there is no one organization institute or individual that's become half of the puma.

the expression of islam and the prison system is a subject which brings great concern. it's generally known that the majority of prison converts assembly back into what they were doing prior to going to prison. however, it is the exception cases to that rule that happen will continue to strike fear in the hearts of america. it's a great concern that up to three dozen african-american prison converts travel to yemen to train with al qaeda. we talked about the case, the gis, jose padilla, richard reid, michael finn, all examples of prison converts plotting to commit acts of violence against innocent people. there are several ongoing cases whose story is yet to be built. the common denominator is conversion to a radical form of islam within prison. if islam expressed itself in the california prison system as it expresses itself in the los

angeles region we be talking about the strength and i to islam brings to oppressors in terms of behavior and value-based living. however, this is not the case. it's not the case because of the men in which many prison populations are exposed to islam during the disguise and dysfunction, danger and exploitation. instead of providing a balanced peaceful contemporary perspective of one of the great and peaceful religions of the world we are left with a hijacked cut and paste version known to the counterterrorism practitioners as prislam. as a matter of practice the american correctional chaplain position recommends one chaplain per 500 inmates, yet we are saying four, five, and sometimes six that ratio. the qualification of chaplains are given.

there are different standards were some are allowed into correctional institutions, others refuse entry. the type of materials, effective policies and practice are designed to great understanding of what perspective faith-based has is me lives by way of measures to facilitate their purposes. there's radical materials inside the prison system's steel. anwar a lock his maternal is inside the prison system. the noble carron, english version with chapters entitled the call to jihad, holy fighting in lost causes in the prison system. the spiritual bluster of our qaeda who wrote the milestones along the road is in the prison system. meetings are not properly monitor because the ratios of chaplains and prison guards to these things. of dying people, purpose and strategy and leaned forward is a

solution to mitigate this risk. and into policing world, to teach committees how to build crime resistant neighborhoods focus stakeholder resources around three dramatic area to high-risk people, high risk places, and high risk activity. this model can be translated into the prison system. furthermore, it needs to be looked at from a whole of government, all of community approach utilizing nongovernmental offices, dated community volunteers and leadership organizations. with the muslim-american ummah in the united states be proud of what converts are learning about islam in prison? i would say in some cases they would be shocked and dismayed. ..

and they realize they have this threat. americans at that time said we are okay. we have good immigration policies. two years later we saw a huge ram up in this threat. as we begin to uncover rocks we see more of the problem. we have not uncovered the right types of rocks in the prison system. we have the fusion centers, we have the g l 0 infrastructure and suspicious 6 committee and reporting activity and today in my seven county area that the fusion center sits on we are

getting 15 to 20 suspicious activity reports in seven presence of month that evolve into a three or four open cases and year and that is only seven and 33 correctional facilities in the state of california. we do have a problem. prisons are communities at risk. thank you. >> thank you very much, chief downing. next witness, professor burg s hass hassim. he kept at the university of mexico for 13 years. he has published several books and magazine articles which i read regarding prison organization and violence. we recognize his testimony. >> i think the committee for its attention to this important matter. the crux of my testimony is that prisons have not served as a

major source of jihad radicalization. three sets of facts support this conclusion. first, u.s. prisons now confined 1.6 million people. each year 730,000 inmates are released. second, from 9/11 through the first half of 2011, 178 muslim americans have committed acts of terrorism or were prosecuted for terrorism. third, for 1 78 cases, there is some evidence of radicalization behind bars. putting these sets of facts together, if prisons were a major cause of jihad radicalization we would expect to see a lot of it but we don't. why not?

in my research i have identified seven factors that have inhibited prisoner radicalization. first, over the last 30 years, u.s. prisons have been able to restore order and improved inmate safety. for example prison riots were once common in prisons have all but disappeared. the homicide rate in prisons has fallen by 90%. a byproduct of its restoration is the appeal of radicalization is reduced. second, correctional leadership is consciously and successfully used the the mission of observing or inmate radicalization into a organizational practices. rather than waiting for its facilities to be penetrated by radicalized groups, correctional

leaders have energized the effort to defeat radicalization. third, increasingly in recent years correctional personnel coordinate and share information with external law-enforcement. fourth, inmates cannot communicate with potentially radicalizing groups on the outside. the internet is unavailable. mail is inspected and censored. fifth, a large body of evidence has shown terrorists come from better educator backgrounds. u.s. prisoners have low education and come from 4 communities. the profiles of criminals and terrorists are different. 6, a surprising finding has come out of my research that there

exists a modest level of patriotism among inmates. it is a case that inmates are hyperconcerned with their own self-interest. still inmates express some level of loyalty to the country. this makes prison a hostile environment for jihad radicalization. finally in recent years, many correctional agencies have improved their screening and supervision of clergy and religious volunteers. if prisons were a major cause of terrorism we would see elijah proportion of jihad terrorists linked to them. that is not the case. still, a small number of prisoners have been radicalized behind bars and attempted terrorist activities.

as law-enforcement continues to work collaborative lee with each other, the threat of terrorist activity in and from prisons will continue to be diminished. >> thank you for your testimony. mr. dunleavy, you talk appeared -- chaplains in state prison. our staff has visited maximum-security prisons and we have been impressed by steps taken at the federal level but 97% of prisoners are in state and local prison that you gave the example of the imam who was arrested and convicted for smuggling razor blades to rutgers island. you have been certified as a

chaplain by the islamic leadership council which is located outside my district and i know it somewhat well because leaders are in my office. the fact is an organization such as that certifying a chaplain who is a convicted murderer certified to be a chaplain in the state prison system. has that situation improved at all? >> i don't think so. because there is no standard. one of the recommendations after that investigation in 2004 was for there to be a certified ecclesiastical body -- >> he was serving in 2007. >> that is correct. cities and states were relying on their own standards, in some cases no standards. there was no communication between a corrections department and a police department with respect to organizations or individuals that were then

hired. >> prof. useem does not believe the threat is that significant from the prisons. yet chief downing, you say the subject is of great concern and an important phenomena and revolving loan be a threat of radicalization in prisons and prisons are in fact communities at risk. have a person on the ground who has to deal with this issue every day you consider a serious issue. >> very serious issue that we don't yet know the scope of a problem because we haven't had the collection mechanisms in place to really understand the depth of the problem yet. in the l a reason -- region with 70 correctional facilities we get 15 to 20 reports a month. they may not all be terrorist reports but they developed into open cases which is of great concern because we have educated the prison guards and

institutions on what to look for and how to report it. >> i'm not asking you to devote anything about the ongoing investigation but in your written statement you say there are several ongoing cases whose stories are yet to be told but the common denominator is conversion to a radical form of islam. our you concerned about ongoing cases related to islamic terrorists? >> we are. we have ongoing cases involving convert present radicals that are out in the community now. that story will be told when the case is prosecuted. >> in the kevin james case it seems there was a perfect confluence of a radical form of religion, organized gang members and almost an assembly line of radicalization in the prison from post prison to radicalize more and attempting to carry out plots.

can you say what makes -- a religious radical as opposed to a gang member or neo-nazi? >> the analysis needs to be a comparison between individual who has committed to jihad on the outside of prison and one that has been in the prison system. in the state of california you can't be in the prison system unless you committed a felony. so those individuals who are committed to jihad in prison have stepped outside norms of societal behavior. they have already crossed that line often with violent backgrounds and experience with weapons with mount washington being a perfect example. we have an individual committed to jihad and already has stepped out and attacked the outside where we consider the norms of society conducting criminal behavior. so the jihadists mentality is basically overlaid on an individual who knows how to

access weapons and knows how to communicate even in the prison system and outside the prison system. when that individual steps out of the prison has happened to washington after being radicalized and being -- becoming a member of j i f -- jis, this is an individual who has operated on the criminal side of the law and is very committed to carrying out violent acts. washington is a perfect example because in six months time he had recruited two additional cell members. they have acquired weapons. they were committing of the gas station robberies to fund their jihad and selecting targets. within six months period of time which is very fast and shows the convergence of criminals sophistication as well as commitments to jihad. >> the ranking members recognize.

>> thank you very much. mr. dunleavy and mr. downing, you both have talked about the issues around prisons and perfect that so much of what is happening is the cause of lack of resources. are you saying in the state of new york the reason chaplains are not vetted like in the prison system and the federal system is a matter of resources? >> no. i don't believe that is the case. >> so why aren't chaplains vetted? >> that is a good question and that question has been asked since the report in 2004. what are the standards? who will establish the standards? is there an islamic organization -- >> not just from the chaplain

period. my point is if you knew in 2004 that are problem existed where chaplains could be certified without the bureau of prisons in new york having some standards, here we are eight years later and we still -- do you know why they don't have any standards? >> i have to go back to the fact that the report did not say all chaplains. it said islamic chaplains. >> is there reason islamic chaplains -- >> because of the fact the individuals -- ummah was not just an imam. >> i am trying to get to the point. is there a reason new york doesn't that islamic chaplains?

>> i think new york does. the new york state department of corrections does but the need for standardization between new york state, new york county, federal prisons within new york state, you need national standards for the vetting. >> weakness or whatever the issue is is something those units of government have created by not coordinating the standards. >> agreeing on a standard. that is correct. >> we all agree there are bad people in prison. your comment about someone getting out of prison, trying to promote a terrorist cause. there are a lot of people who get out of prison who do bad things for a lot of reasons. if we look at it from that

perspective we all agree. whatever it is that is causing people to do bad we need to fix it and if there is a terrorist connection to it and we closed the loophole we should. if we look so merrily at that we have a real challenge. mr. downing, in your work in los angeles who were the most dangerous people in prison. >> gang members are certainly dangerous. >> gang members. described the gang members to this committee. >> los angeles, los angeles is probably the gang capital of the united states with 60,000 gang members in this city of los angeles and 400 different gangs. they are violent and territorial and they have a culture that is

exclusive and they are vulnerable and they are recruiters. >> so in your experience, those really bad people, those gangs continue to operate when they go to prison. >> very much so. >> so we have a lot of gang activity. that is an ongoing enterprise in a lot of groups. primarily state prisons. >> that is correct. >> if we are looking at radicalization, are you saying those radicals, bad people are gang members primarily in percentages versus what we're looking at today? >> the structure is interesting. when you go into a prison you

are on the blood side, or this evolve will muslim side which is getting more attention but not enough. many of the gang members are moving over to that side. kevin james recruited a rolling 60. on the outside who were vicious enemies but on the inside became aligned with an ideology. >> i appreciate your indulgence. we understand but the threat as of this day in terms of the most dangerous people that we have incarcerated, many of those individuals who are affiliated with gangs based on what you said. the area nation, those individuals who basically operate their activities out of the prison. am i correct?

>> yes you are. >> thank you. >> recognize the gentleman from california and former attorney general. >> i must say the political correctness in this room is astounding. as someone whose district includes the new folsom prison where the plot was hatched to commit the crimes in southern california and as someone who represented the areas at one time where those crimes were carried out, to ignore what that is is astounding. absolutely astounding. let me ask the experts we have on gangs, held many of the street gangs in new york or california have an ideology dedicated to the destruction of the united states? >> none. >> none that i know of.

>> mr. downing? >> none that i know of. >> as serious as the gang problem is and i spent most of my life working on it, have you come across leaders in various gangs who have indicated their specific purpose is to undermine the institution of america and in any way associate themselves with any transnational terrorist organizations? mr downing? >> i will say both represent a type of insurgency. one is to overthrow the united states and kill innocent people. the other is to survive in the shadows of society. >> mr. smith? >> things like that need to be made between a radicalized jihadists and a gang members serving prison time, even the mexican mafia gang member. a gang member is interested in

enriching themselves personally with their criminal activities. it is a selfish motivation. that is their aim and their general roll. when you contrast that with individuals like lavar washington they're not engaged in criminal activity is anything but a means to carry out violent jihad. in that lies the difference and the danger. >> isn't the name of a terrorist attack to produce the greatest amount of terror in a community? that is to try to do the greatest amount of destruction, both physical and psychological, as opposed to gaining economic benefit? >> absolutely correct. one of the accepted tenets of terrorism is the need to create

and exploit fear in the population and that is what a jihadists, what a terrorist seeks to do by targeting innocent people. >> mr. dunleavy, you were asked some questions about why we properly that certain chaplains. isn't that the crux of a problem? we have a religion which is an accepted noble religion, one of the great religions of the world, that is being subjected to a radicalization by a certain percentage of its advocates and there is no standard to make the judgment with respect to someone who is teaching or preaching in a prison that may be of a radical version versus an non radical version? isn't that the crux of the problem? how do we have a government try

to sift through that? >> getting back to the question where it was said the question was asked who is the most dangerous inmates in the prison? my answer is the inmate who you know little or nothing about. when you have an inmate of middle eastern descent who may have been wahabi sullivan. there was an ignorant and the lack of knowledge between administrators as to the actual religion of islam. what is the difference between a sunni, a sufi, shia. there was the need to learn. if you don't know, you can't establish standards and that is the weakness that would not come any further since that 2004 report. >> five years ago the head of the prison system in california came to me and asked to have a meeting with the chairman to talk about his concern of the

radicalization of muslim prisoners in the california prison system. subsequent to that, we had a hearing. it was a year earlier -- later when democrats assumed the majority. and congresswoman jane harman conducted a subcommittee for the purpose of looking at the kevin james case. i might just note for the record there was no objection on the majority side and no suggestion that we were somehow involved in an improper pursuit of the truth or that we were somehow wrongly confined ourselves to that particular case and not dealing with all the other cases in the united states. i salute congresswoman harman for her efforts but i wish we would see it reflected now and bipartisan support. i think the chairman. >> the gentlelady from texas for

five minutes. >> i thank the chairman and that do think the ranking member for astute presentation that they gave in their opening statements. i would like to acknowledge a colleague, congressman keith ellison is debate was initially submitted into the record. and very briefly let me define what my political correctness is. it happens to be this document, the constitution. i won't read it because i know everyone probably knows it by heart. john marshall said a constitution in tended to endorse for ages to come and consequently to be adapted for various crises of human affairs. he was one of a number of individuals who tried to interpret why we need this document because without having a stated vision of what america could become he knew we would be

facing a number of crises and we face them today. i want to thank the witnesses for their service and they're critical analysis that is extremely important. but my eighth --angst with this topic is it lends itself to a myriad of analysis. i want to cite two individuals. we have in a previous hearing, a series of altercations with law-enforcement, drugs, traffic offenses. nothing we would applaud but he was not a hardened criminal and had not been in prison for a number of years but he did end up in yemen and he wound up in the yen in jail and became radicalized. or maybe we should talk about vernon merrill to the chairman

has listed for us. thank him for that. he writes a letter and he says prisons are fertile recruiting ground for radical muslims and their introduced by louis farrakhan. he was arrested for bombing and abortion clinic as a christian militant. my point here today, information is welcome. condemnation is not. mr. dunleavy, are you familiar with a christian militant? >> yes, ma'am. >> might they want to undermine this country because right now constitutionally the right for women to choose is a constitutional right. people disagree with it but here's an individual attempting to undermine the protection that are given to women. would you suggest that that might be compared to trying to undermine this country? >> that is a possibility?

>> anyone who goes about killing in the name of god is an ideologue. and i talk about daro salaam, there is the world of islam and the world of the infidel and there is no middle ground. >> what i am saying is when we look to be informational we should include an analysis of how christian militants for others might bring down the country. we need to look broadly, do we not? >> i don't know that christian militants have foreign country backing. >> i don't think that is the issue. the issue is whether their intent is to undermine the law of this nation and i think it is clear that that is the case. if not then your distinction is not answering the question. let me go to mr. useem. you make some valid points. you indicate we are more astute

and i want to ask this question about the nation of islam. do you know what the nation of islam is? do you view them as promoting in current twenty-first century the undermining of this nation? can you tell us what the nation of islam is? >> the nation of islam is a religious group that practices the muslim religion. >> they recruit predominately in the black community. >> that is correct. >> are there underpinnings to your knowledge about improving lives and trying to straighten out? is that your assessment? >> that is correct. >> i don't want to put words in your mouth. that is the underpinning whether or not you agree or not. >> can i add a point? >> if you can quickly. >> prisons -- >> and you defend your position about the oversight, intensity

of oversight in prisons that have bought massive radicalization going on. can you defend your proposition? can you defend it now? [talking over each other] >> extensive oversight in prisons today that are left violent, if you will, riots. >> the gentlelady has expired. >> answer the question. [talking over each other] >> prisons are much safer, more orderly and more secure. rates of violence are down. walk into a maximum-security prison now is orderly and safe. not all but most. that has promoted the ability of officials to maintain and look at extrapolation. >> i was going to add --

speaking and the jis case. >> the gentlelady's time has expired. >> i appreciate the time and thank you for the witnesses coming in, discussing a very important issue, what is happening in united states prisons. what i would like to start off with, if you could tell me a little more about the radicalization process in the prisons themselves. could you comment on that? house someone becomes radicalized? >> it is not too far from power a gang member goes through the process to become a gang member whether there is an orientation or an identification or an indoctrination process and the type of radicalization that goes through but the charismatic leaders and materials and association that contribute to that. we have evidence where we see

some convergence with the gains. we have a higher african-american prison population that is being converted and we have seen this come out on the streets in terms of convert mosques coming up in different communities as well. >> thank you for that. mr. dunleavy, can you comment as well? >> the process of radicalization, particularly islamic radicalization in the prison system is very selective. it is a filtering process. it does not occur with 500 inmates yelling jihad. the facilitators and recruiters who are in the system have the unique ability of profiling. they are able to spot an individual who walks into a cell block the very first time and they can tell what that person

-- they know he has the propensity for violence including committing crimes. he is somewhat by himself. he brought a sense of purpose to his life. they do this profiling wind and the first day they meet him and then they begin to convert him and move in when he is going to be released to an islamic mosque that they have recommended to him and from there he continues to move into an islamic center in virginia or florida and from there to overseas travel for continued study. so it is a process that starts in county jail and move through the state system. >> doing some research, we found that due to the insistence of the justice department, the bureau of prisons is forced to play louis farrakhan's nation of islam videos in chapels for

muslim prisoners. is that correct? >> i am not aware of that. >> can anybody comment on that? and sharia law, radical islam, would you agree or disagree that radical islam would place sharia law as the primary law of their religion? would you agree or disagree? >> absolutely. >> that is a central tenet to their agenda. >> yes. that is what some of the material that is in the prison system, videos and lectures are about the creation of all worldwide muslim domination of sharia law. >> kevin james case, that was -- >> could you also comment, that supersede the constitution of the united states?

>> it absolutely does. only one document. >> i agree. the reality is for a committed jihadists sharia law is god's law and the only law they have to follow. everything else is man-made law and that is not something they feel has any authority over them. >> i would agree. i would offer this. in our out reach and engagement with muslim communities we recognize and muslim communities recognize that the law of the land is the constitution. there may be sharia principles in their communities that they look at similar to jewish law but the rule of law is the constitution of the united states. >> that is correct. i would add the muslim community in the united states is relatively prosperous and well-educated. they do accept the constitution as the law the land.

>> specifically radical islam you would agree sharia law would supersede the constitution of the united states and radical islam -- >> that is a distinction that needs to be made. what i am talking about is from a radical jihadists mentality. not mainstream. >> you would have to put violent radical. >> the gentleman's time has expired. mr. clark is recognized for five minutes. i didn't see that. my good friend is recognized for five minutes -- an extra 30 seconds. >> thank you very much, mr. thompson. let me look at the conditions. when i was in texas i chaired the budget for the prison system, pretty good sized prisons system. spent a lot of time trying to see what conditions there are

and whether it is taxes or anywhere else, the conditions--rates that we look at and all of you are familiar with it. when you go in there, we are talking not only about the prisons at state level but look at the federal level and looking at this particular issue, when you look at the majority that we have, state prisons compared to federal? how do we address the issues you want to bring in or the issues of criminal gangs, mexican mafia or whatever it might be how do we address the issue when most of the prisoners are in prisons where we deal with budget cuts and deal with issues like that? how do we address this issue and

not forget about criminal gangs that most of them are going to stay here, they have to come back and get part of our society. how do we address this issue? this is an issue that is important to some folks but i am looking at the big picture. how do we address all these positions we are facing right now? whoever wants to take it. >> first thing you have to do is set a national standard. all prisons have the same circumstances. we have the resources in place. you have what enforcement agencies and correctional agencies and parole and probation agencies that need to work together but there has to be a standardization. >> five years ago the homeland security held radicalization, it

is noted there is no consistently applied standards and procedures in state prisons to determine religious materials that are appropriate for prisoners. have we seen any improvement in the last five years? >> i don't think you have on the state level. each state is marching to its own step. >> may i speak to that? there have been significant improvements including in the state of texas, much safer and more secure. what hasn't been done is documentation of these changes. there is no work that i know of that compares documents, standards that are used that are very helpful. >> a don't think it is as

potentially complicated as it might seem. the particular group we are talking about, this particular radicalized inmate represent a small proportion. >> that is exactly my point. that is a small portion. what about the larger population, prison population that we have, the united states, more people in prison than any other country. what about the larger picture? >> it is a small portion with greater exponential danger to the community. the reality is there are procedures in place in state institutions. to look at all these different mexican mafia and the like.

not as if they don't have the institutional wherewithal to examine and investigates these but it is just another group. not that we have to reinvent the wheel to evaluate the danger presented by these radical prisons. >> i have 30 seconds left. the point is, many other groups we have to look at. anyone who poses a threat to our society to make sure our streets are safe. >> correct. my opinion at this particular group of radicalized inmates presents an exponentially greater danger to innocent individuals on the outside. >> a few seconds. could adjust allowed -- >> i promise an extra 30 seconds. >> may i introduce these into the record? >> i yield to the lady. to introduce nothing else.

[talking over each other] >> that can't be restrained. mr. chairman, i would like to submit on an fbi law-enforcement bulletin regarding two prison radicalization, showing a statement on texas-based white supremacist gangs, bigotry behind foreign and also the cartel, aryan brotherhood sector, black guerrilla family and mexican mafia to show the balance for the need of an extensive review. that is bidding to the record. >> it is so ordered. i would remind you that they could have had hearings on any of these issues at any time if they wanted to. i never heard these groups that these hearings until we held our hearing on ready -- muslim radicalization. with that i recognize the gentleman from the united states attorney pennsylvania, mr.

marino. >> thank you for being here. excuse my back and forth because of the angle here. am i pronouncing your name right, mr. useem? >> useem. >> i have a few questions. i applaud you and your study. i know how difficult it is to question people. i'm a former district attorney and u.s. attorney and have been in federal and state prisons interviewing people so i know how that operation works. have you utilized any studies involving convergence of non moslem gang members to jihadists? >> i don't know of such a study. >> the you discern the mission of gang members as jihadists which is most dangerous, which one is most dangerous to the overall security of the united states? >> the point was made earlier that banks --gangs are out for

their self-interest but jihadists are up to damage, that explains why jihadists radicalization in prison is very difficult. they tend to come from individuals guided by their self-interest. >> just for the record i do referred to gain members in quotes. terrorists to a certain extent as well. would you agree that inmates are not overly truthful when being interviewed and have a tendency to tell the interviewer what he wants to hear? you did state here, on page 3, paragraph ii, you were talking to one islamic inmate who said there is no way you have a

radical group in this prison for more than five minute without corrections knowing it. al qaeda has proclaimed they seek to recruits. these people are going to tell you what you want to hear and certainly you have to weigh that with a pound of salt. >> that is absolutely correct. our study was more than talking to inmates. they may not have told us the truth. we talked not only 2 inmates but security people. what was striking to us was the consistency of responses. >> just recently to federal prisons, that i have visited before, concerns among the officers, private conversations outside the discussion with

administrative individuals, the conversion of individuals who were not muslim. the conversion of gang members, not so well educated gangs members into jihadists. do you believe that a terrorist will share with you his inner prison hierarchy? >> no. >> the institution of the recruitment/mission? >> i don't believe terrorists would tell us that. >> not to mitigate or pick apart your research because i know how difficult it is, i want to go to mr. smith. we have somewhat of a parallel background. the number one issue as a former u.s. attorney that you are faced

with in the criminal justice system. >> as an assistant united states attorney counter-terrorism was our number one priority. i spent the majority of my time although i worked on other matters like the united states attorney working on counterterrorism and national security. >> mr. dunleavy and mr. downing, you each have 18 seconds. would you like to respond? mr dunleavy? >> i think the recognition that radicalization occurs in prison is necessary. we have to acknowledge that something exists to effectively deal with it. >> mr. downing? >> one issue is targeting innocent civilians for waging war on our country. the other is living in the shadows of society and conducting criminal enterprise for profit. >> i yield my time.

>> now i recognize the gentleman from michigan, mr. clark, for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chair. just for the onset, i want to talk from personal experience. i grew up in the city of detroit, in the inner city, born and raised there. that area has a reputation, maybe it is tougher than growing up in new york or brooklyn or something. there's one issue that many young men, and in my opinion too many young black boys end up going to prison. when they would have been better off if they had gotten treatment

for their mental illness, for drug addiction. they had a chance to learn how to read they wouldn't have ended up in prison. we have a problem with our sentencing policy. but needless to say, by closest childhood friend spent decades in the penitentiary. once these young kids go to prison they become hardened criminals by virtue of their time in prison. the focus of this hearing in the sense that we are looking at what is wrong with the prison culture and howard can we change and improve it, it is the right focus. to put it in the context of islam distractors. let me get to the point. i asked someone who served time in prison why did they convert

to islam and why do other young men convert to islam? essentially two reasons. number one for protection. to protect myself from other inmates and prison staff. and number 2 these young men were tired of their past. they wanted to break away from their criminal past and become a new man. so they become muslim. my question is this -- how can we change the culture in prison so that for those convicted felons who will be released are rehabilitated, they go back -- don't wind up going back into prison or committing crime on the street? that is a waste of money and taxpayers can't afford it. and it is a waste of lives. i have seen it happen. we talk about political correctness. i am a member of congress and my

friends are rotting in prison and those who have gotten out have never been the same again. some of them did commit crimes and they should have been punished for it. but others were in the wrong place at the wrong time. they wouldn't snitch on their friends. they have never been the same again. i know that firsthand. we have a problem in the prison system. we have got to change it. we can't waste our money where housing these people, making them worse off, having them come out and commit crimes and then go back to prison. it costs the taxpayers billions of dollars. political correctness of side, i am a democrat. some of you who are tea party members, we have to stop. we as spending too much money incarcerating young black men who lives could be saved.

it is not about islam. it is about the sentencing policy. it is about the prison system. we have got to change that. i am not really descanting where the chairman of coming from. this is the right focus. what is going on inside our prisons is wrong and we have got to change it and stop the present industrial complex. we are wasting too much taxpayer money. tea party members, we need your support. we need to stop the waste. will waste of money and the waste of lives. these young men are going to islam to protect themselves. they want to change themselves. are there some that folks? there are like in every other faith and every other organization. i know i am making a speech but in that is the question. let's improve the prison culture so that these young men are

rehabilitated. if they are going to be released, if we are going to sentence them for life and punish them that as a separate issue. >> gentleman's time is expired but each witness is allowed to answer. >> i would like to speak to that. having been a kid who grew up in portland, it is a hard neighborhood to grow up in. if you talked to my friends who were 16 years old and told them i would be the new york state department of corrections for 26 years they would have had no doubts. they would have thought would be on the other side of the law. i know what you are talking about, growing up in a bad neighborhood and going into prison and coming out and the need for rehabilitation. this is different. our adversaries know the full that they have in the prison environment. they are able to select that same individual you are talking about who wants to be rehabilitated, who wants to change and add purpose to his

life. they select him and convert him and indoctrinate him and send him over. >> the gentleman's time has expired. the gentleman from alabama recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i appreciate your willingness to have this hearing today to focus on these issues that are of great national importance. my question is for mr. downing nor mr. dunleavy. i apologize i am speaking to the side but that is the way my table is set up me being a freshman with the least seniority. no longer but we are looking at each other. after chairman king announced the subject of this hearing he received the following letter from a state prisoner who converted to islam while serving a sentence for sexual assault as the minor and now claims to serve as an imam for his fellow prisoners. committee staff confirmed the authenticity of the prisoner and his letter and referred it to the fbi. it reads -- i had to miss a

little bit so if i cover things that were covered let me know. i am in jail for eight more months and then i will be free. i am a muslim and because of america's war on islam i am the enemy of the united states. the profit said all muslims are one brother and so a duty to one another, the holy koran says fight those who fight you. 5 virtue of my face the united states is my enemy and i feel commanded to fight for my muslim what do americ of bullets.

i have a question his credibility in terms of what he knows about islam leader louis his teachers, where did he get his training? that is the problem we are talking about. some of the prison inmates become spiritual advisers in very short-term. that is part of the problem. it is not islam. >> in the letter he mentions he is an imam. how does an in maybe, and imam in the prison system? we have civil service chaplains. if you get to this ideology, radical islamic ideology, it

states that the imam is elected by the congregation and inmates will elect their own imam to supersede the authority of the civil service chaplain. >> next, please comment on the propensity of al qaeda prisoners in federal civilian custody like the 1998 east african embassy bombers to attack the united states district judges like leonard sand and federal correction officers such as louis pepe. as our judicial system and law enforcement under threat? >> it is quite apparent that it is definitely one of the threats posed by a violent radical jihadists. the reality is whether they are behind bars or on the streets they don't turn off the belief system. the government of the united states is a target for violent

radical jihadists. representatives of that government weather in the courtroom, united states district judge or correctional facilities, state or federal correction facility, or staff and correctional officers are at risk because they represent the government which is the enemy of these radical violent jihadists. >> finally a question for each of you. on the basis of your professional experience with the subject what would you encourage congress to do about the problem of prison radicalization? >> i would try to meet the recommended ratio of chaplains to inmates, 1 in 500. i create consistent policy and procedures for the materials that are going into these prisons and monitor those and audit those and make sure those prisons staff are educated and oriented to what this thread is that they have a responsibility to not only share the information with federal, state

and local authorities but to know how to report these activities. >> anything you others wish to add? >> the point is we would do much better if we improve our capacity to release inmates and transition them out so they have meaningful futures when they leave. >> thank you. the gentleman's time has expired. the gentlelady is recognized for five minutes. >> i appreciate this opportunity to come and listen. this is my first congressional hearing and when i was a candidate i wanted to come with an open mind for the issues facing our country and this gives me an opportunity to hear both sides of this debate. where i come down on this is i don't see a reason to draw a distinction between the threats of gangs in prison and radicalized jihadists because they're both threats but different kinds of threats. there are more people killed on the streets of