and i am delighted that you are here. railways admire stand-up comics to get the immediate response after their performance and don't have to write their own minds. when you are being hunted by american men between 18 and 25 years old it is inevitable you would get a nickname if not several. khalid sheikh muhammed quickly became known inside the special forces community as ksm so i will refer to him as that. but ksm had another nickname inside al qaeda and it is so good i will tell you up front it was kfc. he got that because the eight pockets and buckets of kentucky fried chicken and in pakistan. he is 5-foot 4 inches and

weighs 140 pounds in college but after 9/11 when he was in other pakistani cities he ballooned up over 200 pounds and has a curse like the job of the hut that led to a lot of teasing inside al qaeda and called him kfc he did not like it. when perle was kidnapped ksm arranged for the man to sell daniel pearl to him. this is not that unusual as it sounds they are sometimes bought inside the terror network. they've brought a film crew then when it was up on the tripod he leaped onto the right shoulder of daniel pearl and began to sock away at his neck. i will spare you the grisly details. it took about a 11 minutes

for my former colleague to die. why did he do it? because he hated the nickname kfc. you wanted to show even though he was fact and in a leadership position, he could not only send people to kill and die but he could kill himself. he killed daniel pearl not because of anything that daniel pearl said or thought that to change his reputation inside al qaeda that gives us of small window into the man. . .

what are the choices that person makes to become a terrorist? how does that happen? secondly, i wanted to know, how does that function on the inside? what a silly to work? what are the internal dynamics? in third, what techniques in the war on terror work and don't work? it obviously leads us into the territory of interrogation rendition of what some people call torture. so those are the three things i'm going to talk to you about briefly today. khalid sheikh mohammed was born in kuwait on the coast. his father came in 1850. it was never a very important village and he became important

in many teen 50s because of oil production and the fact that a lot of tradition australian and south american engineers. but before the coming of the western engineers come as a small coastal village within thy fair chase for pearls, sold seafood. it was an arab seaside town. when the oil boom started attracting immigrants across the muslim world and the call of wealth or possible wealth from 50 reach the mountains of baluchistan coerces the region you will find on many maps. it's a country that no longer exists, but it goes into three different -- it's the people sprawls over three countries, iran, pakistan and afghanistan. in the street without a country migrated from any. others are like his father,

kahlid shaikh mohammed spot there, looking for money, a new life. his father comes in very quickly burchett, the peddler because he mom, preaching a radical version of islam, more or less at this time a new two people each people. he encounters this ideology in kuwait, most likely through saturday sources, what people loosely call the hobbits are, which were properly is no nice office on. this radical form of islam in the 1950s, 1960s is immensely appealing in that section of kuwait for two reasons. one, most of the rest there in the kuwaitis. they are displaced peoples. predominately palestinians. palestinians have much as deliver professional jobs and school teachers, police officers, things like that.

and the other displaced peoples, bangladeshis from the war between india, pakistan is looking for money, people from the far east, commonly muslims all were able to come into kuwait without a visa. but very surely this life, kahlid shaikh mohammed is four years old at the time. it's funny guys. the search for the death records. apparently his father died in 1969. the kuwaitis simply didn't keep records of births, deaths, marriages. it was interesting to them. so we have accounts of his father's death, but it's very sparse. his father dies and there's no welfare state, and organize charity in kuwait for foreigners at the time, so his mother takes the job washing the bodies of the dead and preparing them for

burial. it's a very low status, low-income job, but enables her to eke out a living. at the time she has nine children. khalid sheikh is the fourth mail. years pass on an khalid sheikh is doing very good at school, a somewhat rockish boy. and the family decides they don't have any money at all. they need one son to get an education and the one son typical of an air of families in the spirit of time to support the rest of them in the sunless khalid sheikh. ultimately he applies to the school in north carolina, chuan university, and historically that this church in north carolina. either the family has saved

money for my likely the muslim brotherhood of kuwait has disowned him. he joined the muslim brotherhood after two of his older brothers had joined at age 16. so we arrived in america are roughly 18 years old and is unprepared for what he sees. they interviewed the man who picked him up at the airport who drove him to murphy's or a feared what he remembers years later -- remember his khalid sheikh been surprised by what he saw. first you survive by the geography, intense scrutiny. we see trees in kuwait there behind walls. here there were trees everywhere. more surprising and more strange and more putting than the trees were the people in what they were doing. he was sitting in lawn chairs on their front lawn, visible from the road, growing up, playing

with kids, taking a hosted wishes us a different window. what surprised them with so much of american family life had been in public. this is not the kind of thing that would happen in the arab world. the more time he spent in north carolina, the more he was persuaded that americans are really backward. they did things that should be private and public. they trusted each other very quickly and they didn't go out at night. after darkest and most social locations that have been in many arab countries. in the next states, and murphysboro at the time, they had one pizza parlor, no cars. the pizza parlor closed at 9:00. the town was asleep. so far from an ip and aladdin and friendly, it was so fhm.

it is the day when americans are busy. so he was more and more alienated by america because it wasn't an arab country. these are very small observations. these things by themselves do not make any terrorist, but it does that and not odds with the country. there's nothing schwan did other than make an attempt chapel service that made him part of its larger community. in fact, one of the things i learned in writing shrimpy as there's nothing civilian colleges do to integrate, it explain this country. we taken for granted everyone knows these things. when the fbi searched the car of the 9/11 hijackers left behind dulles airport company found a small spiral bound notebook in a very careful arabic script was the description explaining differences between shampoo, conditioner and body wash. we think we are usually

understood. from another culture, another time, we are puzzling. even explanation is in order for foreign students. naturally he spent most of his time in college with not just other arab students, kuwaiti or students come he didn't even ask for not kuwaiti areas. after transfers to north carolina. he studied engineering for about 15 or 20 people. all of them are kuwaiti arab from chuan. he emerges as someone on a campus of the mullah. technically it's not a mullah. what they mean by that is he is an enforcer. he'd make sure the other students in his crib do not violate the small come in.

scary times of islamic law for what they believe to be islamic law. for example, the cuff of your pants cannot recover your ankle. it is forbidden ever to wear shirts because they've exposed me and so. even when they would go to the gym and workout, they they would be fully covered. enforcing all these differences kept them apart from the american college campus. i met a number of people come ons to desmond went to college and remember him. either way, they mostly remember him fondly. he's a comedian, member of informal troupe known as the friday tonight show where he put on plays and skits and very successfully and very humorous way imitate various arab leaders. but his audience was the other 20 kuwaitis, arab students. i couldn't find anyone who wasn't a kuwaiti arab, who wasn't on some, who knew him

well in school. he had a lab partner digester very broken english. his professors should never have been very good in math and science, but never had a single substantiated conversation that anything that didn't involve molecules and formulas. so he was in north carolina for almost four years, but he became into contact with americans on a clancy bases. it is as if you are changing planes in a strange city and what is the airport. have you met the people of cincinnati? not really. we pass by them. that's what he did in basically four years. he isolated himself in belief believed the borders, the social perimeter to limit contact with americans. sometimes events intervened. one of things i learned, he surprised me was he a criminal record in the united states. i'm surprised other

investigators in the government internist. he liked to drive at high speed with an expired drivers license and he was sort of rare through the street of greensboro and other parts of north carolina. maybe he saw too much of dukes of hazard. i don't know. he would occasionally crash. one day, two women are talking a part car, some urge of confidence that could go on in the living room i would imagine when their cars smashed by kahlid shaikh mohammed. their injuries are so severe they sue him. i found a cup of the lawsuit. their last name is christian. ultimately they win the case. they were aborted more than $10,000 in 1985, which is a substantial sum of money at the time, said their injuries were severe. he never pays. he dodges sheriff, plus the law.

but i tie to the christian women's attorney, stephen jay king and he remembers case and bursting into his office at the translator in a small posse of other arab students to lecture him about the avian iraq war and why america is wrong about israel. israel turned out to be a very important point in his radicalization. more so than i would've thought. you look in the cell qaeda communications can i very rarely mention israel. it just not as a core concern of al qaeda is. but it was a core concern of tsm's probably because the social group in kuwait was predominantly palestinian in this initial indoctrination to radical islamist to the palestinian message. sometimes when you talk to arab reporters, he claimed his mother or grandmother or palestinian is a flat-out lie. his mother is from the mountains of iran and ethnic pollutes and his grandmother was most likely the same.

ramzi yousef, whose cousin -- his nephew who was later behind the february 1993 plot at the world trade center towers also claimed an interview with an arab paper that his grandmother was palestinian. but again, not true. they feel a kinship with the palestinian cause and yet they keep encountering americans who are not jewish, who admire israel as the sole democracy in the middle east, as a place where lots of different types of people, including muslims get human rights and the rule of law. any venture drivers and bus tour operators were able to tell asm and some of his classmates there at eight elected members. that is a statistic that just rolls off the tongue apparently. it is recalled by one of transfix classmates how often they heard this, they are arab

muslims look to to israel's parliament, how many jews are elected? and that's really bothered him. on a return visit to kuwait coming went to see his old high school principal in this principle recalls a conversation that he now hates america and he hates america because of our support for israel and that it's irreversible, every american is encountered. remember, he hasn't encountered all that many, is pro-israel. and that is something that astonishes him, shocks and. when ksm encounters another point to be a comedy is not intrigued by it. he doesn't need to debate it. he's angry at the existence of an alternative point of view. ultimately it's a totalitarian

mindset, but also shows how ill-equipped he is for the intellectual debate necessary for the scholarship. it allows you to succeed in science because most scientific questions, seek them into physics, which is really that assist in my view, there is one answer. in politics and literature in the so-called humane sciences, there's not one answer that's right or certainly not an answer that's right that we all know and universally accept. and so, he never tries to debate -- when he was at the chapel service and shy one, it's actually dean in charge of making sure the students attended chapel. i asked him and he also asked the classmates, is there room for discussion in this chapel services? it wasn't a religious service at all. it was usually an academic lecture and a nice way to christianity. i said, did he ever debate the sun learned in the quran are

they simply presented themselves, to the ever debate anything that was being taught? remember although moses and jesus appear in the program committee. very different forms than they do in the christian and jewish holy books. the account of moses that the christians and jews have is virtually identical on language and translation, whereas the account of moses, for example with completely different. and so, you would if someone trained in the quran would debate, write about moses, for example, or some of the other prophets. jesus figures for the quran than any other prophet. again, the encounter jesus and the someone is very different. you think he would engage in debate or any of his classmates would come in the kuwaiti arab classmates, but none of them did. the lack of intellectual curiosity is just fascinating.

the intolerance for another point of view is something that the schools, north carolina, nt and she wanted nothing to remove the aspect of his personality. this leads to a turning point. in 1986, shortly before ksm graduate in chemical engineering, i believe from north carolina amt, a man comes to speak, former rabbi, now a member of the israeli knesset named koan. call on his notorious notorious earthiness from any point of view were found in the jewish defense league and he is a very hard-line on palestinian palestinian arabs. he thinks the palestinian arabs should go home as he calls it, leave gaza and the west bank, to syria, jordan, egypt, wherever they like. what he called the land between the two rivers, on the jordan river should be the land of the jews and everyone else -- at

least muslims should be. ksm does not a few strong. he thinks is evil. why are quran has a view that's exactly opposite of ksm's. he thinks all the "black tide: the devastating impact of the gulf oil spill" should leave, either die or go to your period is almost indifferent as to which of the two dictate. the point is they should leave. the matter meets antimatter in greensboro, north carolina. it was interesting if in a single footnote in the 9/11 commission report, referring to the cia's interrogation memo into which the ksm says as his first assassination america is my crime. the rest of the footnote says the cia briefer did not believe him, made him immediately curious. and so i began investigating. there's a lot of links between the 1990 assassination four years after his speech in new

york city and ksm. let's go through a couple of brief funds. the man who drove the getaway car for the murder is the same one who chose the getaway car for the world trade center bombers in 1993. the man and a hotel with a video camera was supposed to videotape the moment of glory, two shots to the body of marker hong. the man is also an intact on that track in the night to 93 world trade center bombing. and so, there are about four or five different people involved in both the cajon assassination in an 1893 bombing of the world trade center. that upon the world trade center is run by randy used as.

the nephew and best friend of kahlid shaikh mohammed and the mastermind of the attack in fact kahlid shaikh mohammed himself. records that the justice department find a single wire transfer, which they don't pursue a not explain a moment i, from khalid sheikh in doha, transferring money to the world trade center bombers in the t. 93. now, why don't they pursue it? after the explosion which killed seven people if you include the unborn son of monica smith, wendy died in the world trade center bombing, when you sort through -- when the fbi sorted through the rubble, the ultimately found a piece of a truck with the vehicle identification number that led to the bombers. but in the course of that investigation, which they codenamed trade bomb, by the way, did very strict orders

currently from the clinton white house not to investigate any overseas leave. so the connection to ksm was never fully explored by the lead fbi investigator in the trade bomb case, jesse fox. and that is something that irritated investigators at the time because they saw lots of foreign investigations. instead, the bombing was portrayed as a random group of people who spontaneous came together for reasons perhaps in the unity to carry out the first major foreign terrorist bomb in the united states and advanced there. years later as the investigation deepened, defined other connections. the man who killed them, and feed the center one of the demands of the world trade center bombers is released from sing sing. in fact, that's their first command. that can't be a cause events. our these men connected?

the so-called blind sheikh abdul rahman who is now in prison, but at the time was teaching at the mosque of peace in new jersey, just across the river in the world trade center. so khalid sheikh mohammed sets in motion the assassination and then he travels briefly to kuwait and then to afghanistan to join his older brothers. two of his older brothers have now joined the extended community that is according the airport at the jihad, soviets in afghanistan. because mixing for a moment here. the cii and u.s. government supported seven different afghan factions to race fighting the soviets. the arab factions of the bin

laden was one of the leaders of one of the smaller attractions come in the arab factions were never funded by the u.s. government. they were never funded by the cia. they were in fact funded mostly out of saudi arabia is other donations from gulf arab states. they had it difficult. the acting is just one country back. the saudi backed mujahedin wanted to create an islamic state in afghanistan. so the true groups to work together. they had a common goal and liked to kill soviets. although there are very few reliable accounts of areas fighting soviets. they spent a lot of time fighting each other. one thing that releases the car bomb was something called the camel bomb with explosives and allowed them to detonate against afghanistan. into this mix is ksm and he goes

to see the founder would later become the al qaeda training camps on a hilltop overlooking the refugee camp in pakistan and from the hilltop you can see into the mountains of afghanistan, about 40 miles away. and through him he needs the number of people, but the last time, the osama bin laden. he probably needs bin laden also bin laden denies that was his first meeting. he begins developing a web of social connections to finance terrorism and sees the beginning of the terrorism career. the world trade center bombing as a challenge put out by 1991 five dead by israeli intelligence by the way, u.s. intelligence said there a lot of these to take seriously. the challenges they are to bomb the world trade center, which at

the time they believed was literally the center of the world trade in a sort of imagined in your city with a market you take out the market and trade stops. the idea that the name simply made you marketing gimmick for port authority never occurred to them. so k. sim -- ksm became famous for carrying out the attack, which further reasons was considered impossible. and now he is a choice. you can join al qaeda for a major terror organization or can set out on his own as a terrorist entrepreneur. and interestingly, he does. he has his own work offenders and plans to carry out his own tax in 1994, we find him in the philippines plotting to blow up 11 airliners simultaneous raid over the pacific. nsa detailed in "masterminhd" he

plans to cope with the pope and president clinton separate attack. he later makes an attempt of the pope's life in 1998. both the pope and the president of the united states remain ongoing targets for ksm and frankly for al qaeda. so, these attacks fail, basically as the philippine police stumble onto a burning bomb parts in the kitchen sink of an apartment building in the district of manila and he has to flee. ultimately in 1995 in islamabad, pakistan. either way, the idea that bin laden was killed in pakistan is not strange and you can agree that two thirds of all senior al qaeda operatives killed or captured anywhere in the world, two thirds or captured or killed in pakistan. that's more than iraq and afghanistan combined.

so to the certain extent, we can think of al qaeda as predominantly pakistani organization, certainly in its location in a few safe houses, secure communications in a place to coordinate fundraising and training, pakistan has long been their base. by 1996, early 1997, khalid sheikh ran out of money. his best friend rents the use of his nephew three years younger as they grow up together. one day in high school at the shimmy up. khalid sheikh had the idea of ripping down the kuwaiti flag from the front of the school and get this cousin to shimmy up the flat pool and rip it down.

>> all of which even the

music is supported by strict interpretation of islamic law. they loved the life. the idea that he might leave it although he could get a decent job as chemical engineer fairly easily based on his extensive connection not only with government officials but with rulers of those countries. budget he never considers going straight and reluctantly talks to his friend to get a meeting. him and bin laden do not get along. a very different personality. and kay e.s.m. is the

independent movie producer with a lot of ideas bold and exciting be he needs men and money and bin laden has a reservoir of people ready to die for the cause. but also a lot of technical facilities and those that make passports to make false identities and statehouses and careers for moving money and enormous amounts of money to fund the operation and a technical team to support the operation and also the established propaganda arm. bases in the utility in each other. bin laden is a venture capitalist. there is no major attack carried out in history that was solely the aba called

bin laden. he funds other people's ideas. it does not tend to origination himself k. e.s.m. is full of himself but does he have the discipline? no. to give if money to do what i do is great. he was to be the entrepreneur wants to be financially desperate. says cia had attracted to doha between the plight of the cia and fbi in rome of all places decides to go through the formal process of extradite him from his apartment which is supplied by the minister of religious instruction later becomes the interior minister which is a euphemism for intelligence. here he is supported on the

payroll and the cia warns the fbi if we do this officially thrown open documents k. e.s.m. will we told he will plead. however they are prepared to snatch in the middle of the night and the fbi says that is not legal how do we put him on trial? who shall arrest him? we see the beginnings of the fight to capture ksm 1996 the warfare today with the war on terror which continues to this day. they take the law enforcement approach and ksm gets away. the other approach 9/11 would have happened and he would have been in custody and all of his plots would

not have happened. the 1998 embassy bombings killing 224, i uss cole killing 24 people, 9/11 attacks killing 3,000. the bombing killing 200 people in bali and so on. none of those would have happened. alternately he joins al qaeda. it is like the zero entrepreneurs joining the fortune 500 company and he does not like it. bin laden does not make it easy for him. the process is very different from 10 e.s.m. e.s.m. -- ksm makes quick decisions and goes back to fix it. osama bin laden likes to

brood and according to detainee's thinks three or four days just for the code name of an operation that is only known inside al qaeda but will spend days and-- . bin laden is terrified of making a mistake and likes bureaucracy and process and he has a shura councils like the board of directors even if it is your anonymous against them on and they cannot overrule him. but he likes everybody to have their employer and to take their time and afraid to make mistakes. they're very different. somehow the two people begin to work together on one of the most complicated and most effective terrorist strikes in the history of the world. 9/11. from the beginning, it is a man jarret -- managerial nightmare for ksm. one of the pilots born christian and converts to

islam studies in germany and falls in love with the non muslim german girl. and it is of matter of public record they are deeply in love with each other. and to have reason to suspect that in a few months he will die. and if he has told his girlfriend everything he knows, we don't know. she was interviewed extensively with the german version of the fbi. july 2001 she persuades him to break all security and take a one-way ticket and there she meets him at the airport and he disappears to her apartment for several days. he has all of the operational secrets four

9/11 in the final stages of the attack and do they still go forward? will he spilled the beans? alternately they sent the man who desperately wanted to be the 20 of hijacker now living in guantanamo and his job is to talk him into the woman he loves to go back to the united states and die for islam. we don't know what he says but he does it. this is a number of moments in the 9/11 plots for it has been stopped. stopped buy a maryland state trooper and all of the turning points drive ksm crazy. at each time he wants to stop the operation or reconfigure it, bin laden although he hates to make some mistake was made a

decision hates to reconsider it. so the plot mumbles forward button but that is what makes it possible even ksm was ready to pull the plug. after the 9/11 attacks al qaeda initially thinks the u.s. is afraid to strike and ultimately scatters into pakistan were many are later killed or captured. at this point* head of military operations and his friend is killed by a predator drawn 2001 and six stages of a series of daring attacks than march 2003 a reveal the story of how we found it which is a very

funny and strange story involving cellphones, a text messages and a crazy character who had dinner with ksm but could not remember his address and had to wander around in the night. eventually he is captured in the home of a prominent microbiologist, a famous pakistani society. and in the home is the leader is the largest political party in pakistan it is like catching a the unabomber and the home of two hollywood stars. pakistan has no connection. after he is captured he disappears from view and it is hard to get an account what happens between march 2003 as a timber 2006. ksm disappears into a series

of secret prisons from thailand and romania and near warsaw poland. we don't know because there colder continues to prosecute ksm interrogate years. men under criminal indictment are subject to investigation oddly enough to not like to talk when things are on the record so there are limits to the accounts of this period but we do know certain things for a fact based on documents released that ksm was waterboarded march 2003. half of all outcry that captures talk without course of measures that all. the other half are put on the staircase of increasingly severe

measures. and they are not that severe. one is the bellies lot. you have to have written permission 24 hours in advance before you slap the detainee in the belly. there is a very specific description and how you for your hand and the gap between your fingers and you can stop them wants to get them to talk. fed does a working 912 slap them again you can fill out a form and wait 24 hours than you may be able to slap him a second time if the fingers are properly spread. it is a very bureaucratic process. there is a board certified physician in the room at all times as a translator and an observer. interrogators are rarely, if ever along with their subjects. you have seen reported in

"the new york times" that ksm was waterboarded 183 times. that is technically true but very, very misleading. it really means water was poured on his face 183 times but it was not 183 separate sessions. waterboarding is the top of the case and it has been extensively studied. tens of thousands of u.s. servicemen have been waterboarded with escape and evasion school and there is a lot of medical examination. there is no peer review steady anywhere in the world that shows the americans using waterboarding lease too any permanent or irreversible physical or mental problems. none at all. the list of subjects between 20 and 30,000 have never

been able to find any serious physical or mental problem as a result of waterboarding. but ksm knew the rules and new they could all main pour the water for a maximum of 40 seconds. so he would stick is handout to count off the seconds mocking his interrogators. one of the problems with publicly announcing the of limits is your enemies know the system. but ultimately ksm breaks. maybe out of boredom may be because he does not like having a towel over his face and water poured over him but he does. a lot of people say when you are water board you will say anything to make it stop. that might be true. but it is a useless observation because when your waterboarded you're not being asked any questions that the interrogators don't

already know the answers. ask the questions because they are testing your veracity and willingness to offer the truth. once you begin to cooperate this new move into debriefing then you meet a totally different set of characters. i shall remind you that the people who do the waterboarding have been waterboarded themselves. they have received extensive training of words of 200 hours and part of that they have been waterboarded themselves. they know exactly what the subject is going through because they have done it themselves. ksm breaks and begins to talk. when he offers information into questioning that information is checked and cross checked. they'll write everything he says to take it as gospel. good information is reported

to have access to his favorite foods, an extra: , then inflammation -- bad information is punish. the air-conditioning becomes very cold and very quickly prisoners realize the parameters. cooperation is rewarded lack of cooperation is punished. do i think ksm was tortured? after having looked through hundreds of pages of documents released by the cia inspector general's report and the legal memos by the justice department, i say no. torture the classical definition is a permanent irreversible change of well being. such as amputating a healthy limb, gouging the eye or ripping out a tooth without anesthesia. their countries that do this for information. we are not one of them. those countries torture. we do not permit me or irreversibly affect someone's well-being mental or physical.

we simply put a subject under a period of stress that he cooperates to provide life-saving information. the kinder your to the subject common the harsher your to the innocent american who may be picking a per child from school are going to occur to store for food and never knows when the bomb will go off for the machine gun will burst onto the crowded bus. the nicer you are to the detainee it is a trader -- trade-off. they may not know nothing of politics but if you go too far, he also eliminate the possibility of the subject co-operation. that is a balance. we could talk more about this

incautious -- questioning but to look at the benefits we hear this is unsightly and so on but look at the benefits. the u.s. embassy plot was stopped to kill the u.s. ambassador in singapore into a tax deal streisand and israeli embassies we're stopped for crow 44 people arrested. sinking u.s. warships off of the straits of gibraltar we're stopped the brooklyn bridge empire state building chicago's sears tower and seattle's space needle library tower downtown los angeles and a series of gas stations in baltimore all we're stopped. based on interrogating and debriefing ksm. how many of these plots

would you like to see succeed by giving up the waterboarding option? how many people do you want to trade we don't water board someone who has devoted his life to terrorism? thank you very much. [applause] >> you said you would do with questions issues going too far can be counterproductive but one of the talking heads on msnbc interviewed several interrogators to said waterboarding has counterproductive effect to cause somebody to hate america by intuitively sounds in the case of ksm that you could increase the hatred for america and any way but would you comment?

i am interested to know how does the interrogator take a position that interrogation using waterboarding is counterproductive? >> host: that is a great question. the msnbc interview i have seen all u.s. army interrogators. they were not interrogating high-value targets like ksm that was part of the cia program. now other targets are in the custody of the u.s. navy. the army interrogators look at low level taliban figures or iraq. but your view is splintered along agency lines. the fbi and law-enforcement thinks of making a case. lawyers have written them so say complex set of rules and

they are very cautious of the rules that have rules of evidence were chains of custody and these are the things that upset the fbi. if you prosecute using the civilian court, they are right. interrogations' must be conducted in such a way as to avoid tampering or spoiling the evidence during the case. there are some military am predominately army people who feel the field interrogations' should be the model. and this is senator john mccain few as we follow the 1940 army manual that is great except the and the field manual has a certain limitation. you can never shot at a

detainee or make false threats. you cannot play good cop bad cop. these are all forbidden 1940 emanuel. if you get arrested and suspected of graffiti, you can we interrogated by your local police using all of these techniques and somehow our constitution and that society continues but if you question members of taliban and oxide it and play good, bad cop you have violated the field manual and have done of bad thing and the constitution comes tumbling down. it is ridiculous but based on her the people stand on the issue and sit in the bureaucracy. cia is mostly interested in stopping future attacks. they are concerned how they get their. they think there is a

certain amount of life-saving information inside the heads of the detainees and their job is to get it out it may be counterproductive but there is a consciousness to the process step number seven they take a detainee into a room to throw him against eighth false wall that collapses and falls back about 6 inches. there is a doctor and you needed vans permission but that is another technique designed to elicit cooperation emperor grow only three people have never been waterboarded. khalid shaikh mohammed is one of them. of their manual that was captured in afghanistan 2002 requires them to hold out as a matter of personal honor to hold out as long as possible. if you don't do something

severe they have not met the test of their honor and cannot cooperate. it is an interactive process. i am not in favor of torture per se but i don't think what the u.s. government does is torture but you need to create stress in the subject to extract a life-saving information. and if you don't create enough stress and don't get the animation and people die, how would you explain to the families who lost somebody because they got on the bus at the wrong time? we could have found out about the plot but we may have had to pour some watcher on his face lower keep him in the air-conditioned room for hours or. what is the explanation to

the family? it is a trade at -- trade-off. critics imagine they live in a world of infinite need sapped you can have the most humane and gentle treatment possible. by the way if you look at the cia reports that a public and look at the lab period bureaucratic precautions nobody would find these measures are harsh. but if you do believe they are, you must be honest enough to say there is a trade-off. if we don't do these things this is information they will not get. the question becomes how many innocent civilians do you want to die to prevent waterboarding? >> you had mentioned briefly

there were several other times when ksm got away there were trying to catch him can you go into detail? especially about how specifically he was captured at the end. the pakistani is? cia? how does that come about? >> and they are fishing with a fish and that is where most of kriet people are captured. and then make sure and the harry tested photo he woke up sleeping on of floor of the spare bedroom of the house. that is a joint operation but the intelligence originated with the cia.

partly through a walk-in. anyone who was that the spy museum knows that they are not trusted by a cia our embassy personnel. there are all kinds of reasons. sometimes it is a foreign service to test the agency procedures to discover who is the intelligence officer in that delegation? sometimes it is offering false information for money but they announced they would see ksm later for dinner that night which is very unusual. watkins almost never say they have the information that they will have been a few hours they tried to stretch it out and get a few payments. he was given a secure cellphone number and at the restaurant he sent a text that i think it's hilarious

i am with ksm. it sounds like a message between two high school girls. hours later he calls the number and announces he just got out of the car that dropped off ksm he is picked up by the cia official case officer and they drive around the expensive neighborhood try to find a the house. he does not know the number or the name of the road. they look and the dark to see a building they recognize and drive in circles for a large chunk of the night and this cia officer thinks it is a wild goose chase then about 2:00 in the morning he said that is it. alternately with the cia paramilitary team and other members on loan from the embassy and the pakistani police, they raided the house. there is