>> actions speak louder than words. i vetoed 100 bills where the vote in the legislature was 117 period zero and i vetoed the legislation and its stock and i took on the debate in the discussion because of all of the implications that were going to literally kill people as a result of what i was doing. my favorite belli vetoed was a dog and cat exercise bill. [laughter] it was a republican bill that was going to require pet stores to exercise dogs and cats two hours a day three times a week. now i've got to tell you it's a great idea. it's where i would want to buy my dogs and cats but in vetoing the legislation i said a great idea. it's what pet stores ought to do is exercise their dogs and cats but if i sign this legislation the unintended consequence of this will be that at some point i will have to fund the dog and

cat exercise police and i refuse to do that. [applause] [cheering] i was more outspoken than any governor in the country regarding school choice. i believe the only way to reform education is to bring competition to public education, and that is an exciting -- [applause] that is an exciting notion to me. educational entrepreneur is unleashed on our educational system k-12 to deliver better products, better services at lower prices. it would happen. it's exciting. i took on the debate. i took on the discussion for six years to read actions speak louder than words. i proposed a full-blown voucher system for the state of mexico

that is the lead to if implemented would have brought about implementation of the legislature was to throw cold one democrat and that didn't go anywhere other than the date and the discussion that did go on and the fact that 35% of the mexicans supported school choice when i started that whole thing when i left office over 50% of the mexico supported school choice, so it made a difference. [applause] i would not be running for president of the united states if i didn't think that i could do this job and i didn't think that i could do a good job at it. so, but is it that is facing this country? what facing this country is that we are on the verge of a financial collapse and that's because there is no -- it is going to be a bond meltdown, it's going to be the bond market that is going to arbitrate this. but there is no free paying $14 trillion in debt when our

deficit this year is 1.65 trillion last year, the year before, the year is going forward what that says to the bond market is you can't prepay that. and this is going to come due and it is going to happen. it's written. the only way this is preventable , the only way is to balance the budget now. [applause] [applause] >> president johnson in the year -- all i have is my resume. if you heard about my resume, hope you believe what i'm about to tell you. 2013 gary johnson will submit a balanced budget.

2013, and to balance the budget, that means talking about medicaid, medicare, that means cutting the expenses for medicaid and medicare, reforming social security, defense starting with those topics. when it comes to jobs in this country, this is what gary johnson is going to do, gary johnson is going to propose the elimination of the corporate income-tax, and eliminate the corporate income tax. [applause] understand that the corporate income tax is a double tax. we all owned corporations. when money gets distributed to you and i as shareholders of the corporation at that point that money gets taxed. reestablish this country as the only place to start up, grow and nurture business. [applause]

gary johnson will propose abolishing the internal revenue service. [applause] [cheering] , eliminating the income tax and replacing and replacing it with a fair tax. [applause] which by all economists reckon a free-market economist slackening would be just that, very fair. everyone would pay, and would promote savings and would do all the things a tax system should do. and then the other thing, for the things, eliminate the corporate income tax, our own tax reform, bring certainty to

governments. look, there is no certainty in the government right now and because of that uncertainty, there are hundreds of thousands if not millions of jobs that are going unfilled because of the uncertainty in government. as the governor of mexico, business wants to sleep at night knowing they didn't have to send lobbyists to santa fe because johnson was going to take care of it. right now an example of certainty, because of uncertainty we are not building coal-fired plants in this country, coal-fired electrical generation facilities because of the uncertainty over cap-and-trade which by the way, i would never support cap-and-trade. [applause] cap-and-trade would devastate the economy. but because of that uncertainty, because those investors involved in building new coal-fired plants have that uncertainty, no

one is willing to step up and build because they have no idea what the costs are going to end up being. so there are hundreds of thousands of jobs right there in that state. talking about medicaid and medicare, i would propose that federal government block grant the states of a fixed amount of money and give the delivery of health care to the poor and those over 65 to the state. 50 laboratories of innovation, 50 laboratories of best practices, there would be best practices. 50 states all competitive. there would be best practices, there would be some real fulfill your, too. we would do everything we could to emulate a success because we are very competitive to do everything we could to avoid the failure. but the notion that washington knows best. come on, that is what has us in

the situation that we are in. [applause] not 1 cent of tax went up when i was governor of new mexico. it was a promise that i made. without raising taxes, and without cutting benefits, social security can be reformed, and here's how. raise the retirement age, combination of all these factors and there are plenty of other suggestions and i've got into all of them but let me just cite three. raising the retirement age, means testing, and means testing could encompass the notion of here is what you paid in, you shouldn't get more back than what you paid in if here's your income threshold today. [applause] it makes sense. and then change the escalator

that's built into social security from the wage index to the inflation index. that in and of itself would make social security soluble into the distant future. defense. can we afford to cut defense spending significantly? and still provide ourselves with a strong national defense? i believe so. but we cannot continue to nation build. we cannot continue to build schools, bridges, highways and hospitals and other countries when we have the same needs here in this country today. [applause] we need to be vigilant to the war on terror. it's real. we need to be filled vigilant to military flat.

i was opposed to iraq from the beginning believing there was not a military threat. and if there were weapons of mass destruction, i thought we would have the military surveillance capability to see that happen and we could have gone in and dealt with it if it would have been there. i thought if we went into iraq we would find ourselves in a civil war to which there would be no end. afghanistan initially i thought was totally warranted. that's what our military is for. we were attacked. we attacked back. we are at war with al qaeda and after having been in afghanistan for six months, we have effectively wiped out al qaeda. that was ten years ago. let's get out of iraq and afghanistan tomorrow. [applause] [cheering] and for all the debate and the discussion we will have about

all the problems will cause, which will be completely war until the debate and discussion, i would just argue to you that we will have that same debate and discussion 25 years from now if that's when we finally decide to get out. we are bankrupt and worse yet, men and service women are continuing to lose their lives. libya and iran in an environment right now i have to issue an opinion on everything that happens as it happens, and by the week, i found my experience as governor to be blood boiling and i wouldn't be here right now if my blood isn't boiling over being able to discuss the issues, but libya, and opposed to our intervention in libya a through z. [applause] and it starts with a military threat. there was no military threat

from libya. [applause] where was the congressional authorization to go into libya? president johnson will pledge to make sure that he gets that check off from congress should that day ever come when he asks for an intervention anywhere because that is a great check. it's a constitutional check. why any president would do otherwise is beyond me. buyer in our constitution does it say that because we don't like a foreign leader that we should go in and topple that foreign leader? i don't think it exists. aren't we in this of war and lydia? and don't five of the country's right now in the middle east, fifer as an intervention that we have pulled off and libya? [applause] win does this end? let's end it now. so, foreign aid, i am opposed to foreign aid because we are

borrowing 43 cents out of every dollar to give away to foreign countries. [applause] but i think it's important to distinguish between foreign aid and military alliances. it's important that we maintain the military alliance is that we have come and of course they are the obvious alliances which include israel. [applause] but we need to maintain a military alliances from the standpoint of being able to reduce our military expenditures significantly and have other nations around the world take up and pay their share of all of it. [applause] all of these wanted infrastructure transportation

infrastructure projects in europe, healthcare, universal health care in europe, wheat subsidized that because they haven't had to pick up the tab. we are sending more money than any other country in the world combined, the and all the other countries in the world combined and we are only 5% of the world's population. and here is one that i did the other day on the back of and that can. the interest we are paying china on the debt on the money that the have loaned to us pays for their military expenditures for your. i believe in free markets, i believe in free markets. i think there's a magic to free markets. i think we all benefit from the lower cost of goods and services. so don't look to me when it comes to tariffs or the notion of free markets as an exciting

notion. as governor of new mexico, i cannot tell you how many bills i vetoed that i called corporatist pieces of legislation or legislation that advantage to individual groups, corporations that were well-connected politically as opposed to legislation that would have treated everybody equally. i saw all this all the time. quest communications in new mexico, free trade for communications, that's the title of the bill. welcome the reality was anything but. it furthered the monopoly. was anything but competition. the toe. count on that. education. i talked earlier about free markets and education believing that we need to bring competition to public education. what is the number one thing -- back up. federal government, a jetty. federal government is each state 11 cents out of every dollar that every state spends. of course that's the state

giving washington 14 cents comes back 11 cents but it comes back with 16 cents for the strings attached so it's really the - to take federal money when it comes to education. so what is the best thing the federal government can do to improve education in this country? that would be to get abolished. [applause] [cheering] return education to the states. this laboratory of innovation laboratories of best practices, there would be best practices. alladi get that coming to me as governor of mexico. i'm going to lobby and do everything i can to bring about a full-blown voucher system to bring competition to education. the free-market when it comes to energy. energy should be free market driven.

if we embark on safe and responsible to land in this country which we should do, in 15 years it's a very reasonable that we would be producing 50% of what we consume when it comes to oil. when it comes to -- [applause] when it comes to natural gas, a huge resource converting our fleet over to natural gas mix all the sense in the world. there are going to be a slew of gas-fired electrical generation facilities built. this is what we should be doing. when it comes to the green space, we should continue when it comes to the green specks that the best in the green space is that when it comes to -- when it comes to wind, solar and by

no fuel, and i do not input ethanol and biofuel, it's my understanding, it's my belief that a final takes more energy to produce than what it produces. [applause] but there are some exciting areas in the green space. the bet is that every five years it becomes 100% more efficient, that is not happening, but if it were, in 15 years, the green space would provide 15% of our energy needs. so, we have to rely on traditional sources, coal come back to coal. we need to be building a coal-fired facilities in a free market system for nuclear energy i don't know if any nuclear plant built right now in a free market system for nuclear energy because no one will underwrite the liability that goes along with that, but it's an exciting notion that the new nuclear plants are a 50 year plant with

one fueling, that's an exciting notion to me. integration right now is a really big issue in this country and as a border state, i think i have some knowledge on immigration. immigration touches on immigration and it also touches on other issues that we have in this country starting out with the fact that we have created a welfare state in this country. we need to reform our welfare state. our mexicans coming across the border and taking entry-level jobs from america? absolutely not because we as americans can sit at home and collect a welfare check that sets less money or the same amount of money for doing nothing. reform welfare. if you can work, you will work. [applause]

we are educating the best and brightest kids from all over the world right now, and because of our convoluted immigration policies, we are sending them back to their countries of origin as opposed to them staying here and ultimately starting of their entrepreneurial businesses having eliminated the corporate income-tax where else with a start up their business? but we are sending them back to their country of origin rather than them stay here where ultimately tens of millions of americans would have been employed as opposed to tens of millions of indians which i'm afraid is what we have been doing. i am glad the google is a u.s. company and not a russian company. that said, immigration is a good thing. we are a country of immigrants. we are all immigrants. we all have a lineage of emigration. so when it comes to immigration, i think we should make it as easy as possible for someone who wants to come to this country and work to get a work visa, not

citizenship, not a green card permanent, resident status but a work visa that should entail a background check and a social security charred that applicable taxes get paid. for the 11 million illegal immigrants here in this country right now let's recognize the number one reason why they are here illegally is because of the government. it's because when ronald reagan's that the amnesty program in the 80's, he coupled that with putting government in charge of quotas matching that businesses with employees, and that was a breakdown from day one. you can't get a work permit and come into this country and work and yet you know if you can get across the border even illegally you will get a job because you have dozens of friends and family that lives across the border. so with regard to the 11 million illegal immigrants here with some of the grace period whereby we can document. that's how we secure the borders. give them a work visa back rent

check social security card and then when we passed the laws that are easy to comply with, then we need to have a result to enforce the laws submitted a one strike you are out. if you're in the country working illegally and we made as easy as possible for you to get a work visa and you don't have one you get arrested, deported and you won't come back and work in this country again. look, we are republicans. everything should be a cost-benefit analysis. we shouldn't turn our back on anything when it comes to cost benefit. what are we spending our money on and getting for the money that we are spending? building a fence across 2,000 miles of border, putting the national guard arm in arm across 2,000 miles of border is going to be a whole lot of money spent with very little if any benefit whatsoever. and then, let's look at border violence with mexico. border violence with mexico is drug related.

i espouse legalizing marijuana. legalize marijuana -- [applause] and arguably 75% of the border violence with mexico goes away because border violence is prohibition related. that's what it's all about. if we can't connect 28,000 deaths across the border with disputes being played out with guns rather than in the courts i don't know if we ever will be second, as governor of mexico, everything was a cost-benefit analysis. do you realize that half of what we spend, half of what we spend on all enforcement, the courts and prisons is drug related? and to what end? we are arresting 1.8 million people a year in this country. we now have 2.3 million people

behind bars. we have the highest incarceration rate of any country in the world, and this is america. freedom, liberty, and the suppose it personal responsibility that goes along with it. china has four times the population of the united states, a communist of orator in dictatorship, and they have 1.5 million people behind bars. i would ask you to look at this issue if you haven't and see if you don't come to the conclusion that i have come and that is that 90% of the drug problem is prohibition related, not use the focus. but for the drug law, i think we now have 30 million americans that would otherwise be tax paying law abiding citizens. when i say legalize marijuana, it is never going to be legal to smoke pot, become impaired, do harm to others come and get

behind the wheel of a car, like alcohol, it's never going to be illegal for kids to smoke pot or buy pot, like alcohol, and under which situation is it going to be easier for kids to smoke pot and ipod? that exists today britain by pot virtually everywhere and the person that sells marijuana cells harder drugs or a situation where you have to produce an ied in a controlled environment like alcohol to buy marijuana. i think you can make the case of the latter. thank you very much for having me here today. [applause] thank you. [applause] thank you for your activism. thank you for your activism. republicans, the republican party is the only party that's going to get us out from under the problems that we face right now. republicans have to have control of the senate.

republicans have to remain in control of the house, and republicans have to have the presidency, and unlike a few short years ago where i think we blew it when we passed the prescription health care benefits and ran up record deficits, we cannot let this time. we need to do it -- thank you for your activism, thank you for the invitation to speak with you here this afternoon. [applause] [cheering] [applause] ♪ ♪ [inaudible conversations]

♪ [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] ♪ >> and now, ladies and gentlemen, one of the brightest members of the united states congress from but the 11th district of the state of michigan, congressman thaddeus mccotter. [applause] church of [applause] ♪

>> in detroit rock city, yes. >> great to be here with you today. - thaddeus mccotter, the servant of michigan's 11th congressional district sovereign citizens. lamb also by profession a simple country lawyer from detroit. [laughter] and before i took the opportunity to share with you the solutions to all the world's problems in the next 20 minutes -- i would like to thank you for what you do for the republican party. when you do for your communities and what you do for our country. every single one of you is an air of lincoln and ronald reagan and have taken their mantel at the expansion of human liberty, taken time from your own lives to make a difference in the life

of our nation. and all of you asked for in return is the hope of good governance. and for that, i think you very much. we come to the republicans is of course an individual matter. i, for one, came by the very strange route my mother was a very moderate eisenhower republican schoolteacher, my father was a schoolteacher who happened to be a very adamant reagan democrat to read emphasis on the ladder at a time. but as we grow up we are instaled with principles and moral teachings from our parents. my father did not have an easy life. his mother died when he and his brother and sister were young. my father could not take care of them. his sister was sent away and my

father and his brother, frank, were raised in the st. francis home for volleys. and yet throughout the entire time that i knew my father, he never complained about his lot in life. he always worked hard and never expected or asked for a handout, and he taught us that there's an inherent dignity and work and that no one is better than you and that you are better than no one.

>> we drove out the an arbor, the home of the university of michigan. this is 1972, and my father drove through the streets of ann arbor, and pointed at every hippy he saw. [laughter] he said to my brother and i two things. the first thing he said was if your hair ever gets that long, you'll be punished severely. i'm paraphrasing. [laughter] as you can see, that problem has been solved. [laughter] the other was this was the greatest country on the face of the earth, and you should never feel entitled to it. you should put your heart and soul into making it better,

which by his example, he did. [applause] now as i'm older myself, i'm no longer the child, i am the father. i'm the husband, and my wife rita first generation mexican-american, and a registered nurse working weekend shifts up to 12 hours. we have three children, george, a freshman, timothy going into his junior year at catholic central high school, and our baby girl who is 13 going on 30. [laughter] she'll be attending high school in the fall. my mother is still with us. i won't say her age, but things are getting increasingly slower for her at this period of time as people who live next door to working people, i understand what the middle class squeeze is

about, and i, like you, like all americans, are very concerned about the future direction of this great country. we live in a period of time of great upheaval, uncertainty, angst, and chaos both at home and abroad. as republicans, we face this fact, and we embrace the challenge before us as the republicans have throughout our party's history. when we think about it, in many ways what we face parallels the challenges confronting the greatest generation. as you recall, they faced four great challenges. the first was a social, economic, political upheaval of industrialization. the next was a world war against the evil enemies. they faced the rise of the soviet union as a rival model of government, and they faced the moral question whrornts the constitution of united states applies to all citizens equally

regardless of race. today, what do we face? a global generation of americans faces the social, economic, and political upheavals of globalization. we face a world war against transnational terrorist enemies. we face the rise of communist chinese superstate as a threat and a rival model of governments, and we face the question whether a in this case built upon self-evident truths can survive moral relativism, and yet, there is one stark difference between the generations. in general, the greatest generation faced their crisis consecutively. we currently face our crisis simultaneously, and just as we face these simultaneous trials, we are called upon to weave a seamless garment of triumph so the generation we inherited can be improved and be given to our

children to be a nation of free people, and i have no doubt that we will. [applause] because the solutions we will put forward are going to be based on five principles that we share, and that we have received from the founding generation of this nation forward, and they are these, our liberty is from god, not the government. [applause] our sovereignty is in our souls, not the soil or scepter. our security is from strength, not appeasement or surrender. [applause] our prosperity is from the private sector, not the public sector. [applause]

>> our truths are self-evident, not relative. [applause] so you say how do we apply these to the problems of today? we apply them as generations before us always have successfully. let me address the issue of globalization. what do we see in washington, and what do we see around the heart at home? well, in washington what we see under the obama administration is that the era of big government is not over. it is imploding. this is why, we as republicans, as americans, have to stand fast for fiscal integrity within washington. we have to continue to support a balanced budget amendment that puts the sovereign people in the

room with the appropriators and tells them they can go no further. we need -- [applause] we need to have true entitlement reform that is meaningful. we need to make sure that the competition and choice that is is put into entitlement programs such as method care that allows -- medicare, that allows seniors and others to control the quality and decision making within their receipt of government assistance continues to squeeze costs out of the system up stead of come -- instead of coming out of the back of recipients. we need social security reform. social security reform which will allow people to control much of their own money prior to reaching age 62 rather than cutting benefits, breaking taxes, and breaking the generations that phased into it. there's a way to do it, and i'll be introduced it within the next two weeks. [applause]

. the private sector, we need to remember that we live in an age in which we have a communication revolution. now, i know this is hard for 45-year-olds like me. it's a little easier for my kids, but i remember growing up in the industrial era when we had what was called vertical corporations. a vertical business model, heavily centralized, heavily pure -- purebureaucracy, and they can determine what the price would be. i want you to think about the big three in the 60s and 70s, and what happened with government? in the industrial era, government became a mirror image. it became vertical, centralized, bureaucratic, but what we've seep today --

what we've seen today is a democratization of the economy. you live in what? a horizontal consumer economy where the power is in your hains to extend on before to make your own decisions, receive your own information, and be the individual to set the course of the free market, and what do we see out of washington? we continue to see the antiquated model of big government which is imploding trying to be propped up by the regressive democrat party because it is their pour base, and they don't know any better. you cannot -- [applause] you cannot put an antiquated vertical government on top of a consumer-driven economy and expect to have prosperity because it will be impossible to lift an economy up from the crushing ruins of the welfare

state they are trying to sustain. [applause] in short what you have to do is you have to have taxation, regulation, litigation, reductions, and you have to glue it together with true bank reform of the wall street banks to get credit flowing back into the economy, unitize the entrepreneurial genius of america and help startups grow this economy, and that will happen. [applause] in the area of national security, i have a very simple message. i know it is tempting to turn away from the struggle in which we find ourselves, a struggle as i point out, but as we learn from the disasters of the 20th century, and the disasters that we're trying to prevent in the 21st. in the age of globalization, isolation is not an option. we were attacked on september

11th. we remain threatened by the terrorist enemy who will kill themselves and their children to kill you and yours. there is no accommodation with al-qaeda. there is no accommodation with terrorists who are essentially a death cult than upon subjecting you. we will show our love of liberty and love of life will trump their love of death. we must -- [applause] we must continue to view our national security not as an opportunity for a speech in spending and hoping for the best, but as an integrated whole, and mountain middle east against the fight against terrorism, the first thing we must always do is stand should-to-shoulder with our dear democratic ally, israel.

[applause] as the basis not only of security, but eventually of peace. we must continue in iraq to support our brave men and women as we do in afghanistan because though it is very difficult to fund the civilian pop population here at home, the counterinsurgency plans in place are starting to work in iraq and have to be given a chance to work in afghanistan because what we must do to prevent a nuclear armed iran is two-fold. we must take the reagan doctrine of containing and rolling back the soviet union so there was a peaceful implosion beneath its own people's aspiration of liberty. we must support democratic movements within the middle east that are pro-freedom, pro-free markets, anti-oppression so we

can surround the regime with other nations that are already breathing free, and in conjunction with that, the united states must support the green revolution in iran the same way ronald reagan and others supported because that is the ultimate way to prevent any confrontation with iran is allow that regime to implode beneath its own people's aspirations for freedom. [applause] this is the lesson learned from longes, from reagan -- lincoln, from reagan, to defend our own liberty, to expand it abroad because it will protect ourselves. this is no neo-conservative call, but there are things we can do diplomatically, economically, morally to help continue to spread the spark of

freedom that commenced in this nation this 1776 and up spired the world and will continue to. we must continue to do so because it's not just the middle east that threatens us. we still have the butch regime in cuba. we are seeing a restalinnization under putin, but we cannot be blind to the reality that across the pacific ocean, the united states faces a rival threat in communist china, and for those who think that my calling them communist china is provocative, i remind you there's 73.4 million of them holding cards in their back pocket saying they are communist. if you have issue with me, take it up with them and abuse them

with the notion. i'd be happy if you can convince them otherwise, and this is a rival model of governments. it is one, the test between ourselves and the prc, the people's republic of china, is the one the world is watching. there's a stark difference between ourselves and them. they believe their people's liberty is a threat to stability and prosperity. we believe liberty is the foundation of security and prosperity, and that only a free people can achieve those two goals. [applause] this is why we must end the unconditional appeasement of communist china, a regime that still practices and puts forward a policy that tells its own citizens how many chirp they can have, a regime that believes they can have a state of administration of affairs to

tell catholics which churches to go to, protestants can't pass out bibles, puts people in prison for religion. this is a regime that engages in cyberspying against the united states, against our military, against our industrial targets, a regime building up its military compart -- components. they continue to support the burma regime to not allow its people to be free. by its own admission, not mine, considers us their number one rival and is doing everything they can including currency manipulation and trade practice violations to weaken us so that their model of government so their government will be the one future governments will follow. we will not let that happen. we cannot let that happen. [applause]

we need a constructive containment policy, one that readdresses the issues and attaches human dignity and we must also have a clear and convincing cybersecurity network here in the united states so we don't see on tv that the crai was hacked and the u.s. senate has been hacked because of people in china so we can continue to assess strategically the threat that their military buildup brings, continue to support the jazzman revolution, and interpret freedom so that the chinese people can have the freedom they deserve and we can live with them one day rather than having to deal with that regime as a rival model of governments, and we will do this. i know the people out there are saying that the chinese is the 21st century. the people's republic of china is the 21st century. i refute that how america refuted we will bury you.

crus chef was wrong, and hu jintao is wrong. [applause] we come to the question of our cherished institutions of faith, family, community, and country. well, let us just be clear, as cliewr as the constitution is. the constitution protects us from having, a, religion established in this country, but nowhere in the constitution does it dictate that all religions must be e eradicated from the public's square. [applause] in terms of our family, we must continue to defend and advance parental rights against governmental bodies here at home, pure rockty here at home, gummings here at home, and -- judges here at home, and even the united nations.

the ability to impart your moral teachings and principles to your children is viable, sacred, and it must never be impaired. [applause] in terms of our communities, we know the pure bureaucracy is the enemy of productivity and creativity. as the welfare state implods, we have to seize the opportunity to practice the principal of subsidiary that means this, the smallest unit of government that can handle something should be allowed to starting with the individual moving to the family moving to the community, and this is not a stroke of genius on my part, but this is called federalism. it is called the first guard against big government in washington is making sure people can self-govern and people can been together for the common good and execute solutions to problems in their mist wut big brother trying to do a one-size

fits all. finally, with country, the country should never, never be ashamed. my father never was. my mother never was. my children will never be ashamed or embarrassed to express the fact that the united states is an exceptional nation and a blessed one. [applause] now, we may differ on some of the ways op how to accomplish and transcend the four great challenges, but reasonable minds can differ. that's why i was also drawn to the republican party because of the debates we could have, the things that i could learn from engaminging with my fellow republicans, and there was no one standard outer doux to tell you what to think or not to think because we do not purge. we are a transformational

movement. we add. we persuade, and we move forward. [applause] as we move forward, people will ask what can we do? well, i was asked that question back in 1986 by my friend who is the best man at my wedding. i let him be best man despite the fact he convinced me to become a republican. as you know back in 1986, things were a little different back then. we were all younger. [laughter] the rest of you stayed good looking, but the first job i was given was to take a bunch of index cards in a shoe box and compare them to a thing called street addresses, phone numbers, and name to bring the elaborate filing system up to speed as we tried to keep recruitment coming in and try to get new voters to

join the republican party. i learned a great lesson a couple years ago, and i shared that experience with my son, george, and i said, well, george, we had to get the cards, look the numbers up, make the phone calls, and you'd hand address envelopes to get the message out. hey, dad, just hit reply all on your e-mail. [laughter] why don't you just hit sen? why did you have to do all of that? i said, well, son, we were mass kisses. you live in a great revolution as i said, and that applies to politics and government. first of all, it's a tremendous development to think of the transparency it's brought to lite, and i'm not talking about twit picks, but being able to see how your government operating seeing members from across the country on tv, on yiewb, putting -- youtube, putting messages forward. you can do the same thing. you have e-mail lists.

some of you have facebook and engage in twitter. you have the ability to get your message out. you have the ability to help influence, shape, the court of your community and country to the extent that was unknown back in 1986. if you don't believe me, ask yourself a question. can you imagine the gipper with twitter? [laughter] we may not all be him, but we can all use twitter, the new technologies to advance our vision of the united states as a free people in the 21st century, and so i'll conclude by putting forward what i believe to be the choices that we face, and they are simple choices, and they are between the democratic party and the republican party. i'll start with the democratic party on the left. you can have liberty in the

republican party, or you can have servility. you can have prosperity, or you can have poverty. you can have solvency. you can have bankruptcy. you can have security. you can have insecurity. you can have duty. you can have indulgence. you can have exceptionalism, or you can have declinism. we have made this choice long ago as republicans, as americans, and that is why let there be no doubt that the best days of this country are ahead because of you, the majestic american people, and we will rebuild an america that works, a vir choose prosperous, and secure creative nation so that we can still inspire the rest of the world to see what our free

people can achieve. why? because we're americans. it's what we do. [applause] thank you very much for having me, and god bless you for what you do, and god bless the united states of america. [applause] ♪ ♪

>> coming up, a house hearing on the atf gun smuggling situation. then a public works committee hearing on safety issues on u.s. nuclear plants, and later, a discussion on the u.s. economy and the federal debt. >> several news organizations reported today that kenneth nelson, acting direct effort of the alcohol, tobacco, and firearms will resign over a gun trafficking operation blamed for the death of a u.s. border agent. now, a house hearing on the operation along the u.s.-mexico border known as fast and

furious. this is about four hours. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]

[inaudible conversations] >> the committee will come to order. we exist to secure two fundamental principles. first, americans have a right to know that the money washington takes from them is well-spent. second, americans deserve an first efficient effective government that works for them. our duty on the oversight reform committee is to protect these rights. or solemn responsibility is to hold government accountable to taxpayers because taxpayers have a right to know what they get from their government. we work tirelessly in partnership with citizen

watchdogs to deliver the facts to the american people and bring genuine reform to the federal bureaucracy. the mission of the bureau of alcohol, tobacco, and firearms is to protect our communities from violent criminals, criminal organizations, and the illegal use and trafficking of firearms. since the gun control agent of 1968, the atf has been organized as a unique law enforcement agency that americans could trust to reduce the illegal transfer of guns into the hands of criminals. today's hearing concerns a breach of that trust that has left countless, innocent mexican citizens, and at least one federal border patrol agent dead. in 2009, the atf began allowing straw purchasers to walk guns into mexicos believing that this

initiative would help them track the use of firearms by higher-ups within the mexican drug cartels. guns instead were being seized and allowed to cross the mexican border without the knowledge of the mexican government. this effort failed. over strong objections of the atf field agents, the program continued at approximately 2,000ak-47s and derivatives and some 50 caliber sniper rifles and others and 10 # ,000 or more rounds of live ammunitions went into the arsenals of the mexican drug lords. despite the strong objectivity of field agents, operation fast and furious continued, and not only did it continue, but those

at the highest level of atf showed grease interest in the program. a document displayed on the screen now shows two of the most senior leaders in atf, acting director kenneth nelson, and acting deputy director billy hoover were briefed weekly on fast and furious. the documents show that both nelson and hoover were keenly interested in the case and updates. a second document shows deputy assistant director for field operations, william mcmanhon was so excited about the breaching, he was scheduled 45 minutes after his plane landed. ed third document indicates that acting director knollson was very much in the weeds with operation fast and furious.

after a detailed briefing on the program at the atf field division, acting director nelson had a pleat ray of follow-up questions requiring additional research to answer, and as documents indicate, mr. nelson was interested even in receiving the ip address for hidden cameras located inside cooperating gun shops. with this information, acting directer nelson was able to sit at his desk in washington and himself watch a live feed of straw buyers entering the gun stores and purchasing dozens of ak-47 variants. earlier this month, the mexican government reported that more than 34,000 lives have been lost in the four and a half years, and scores of others remain missing. last year, 111 u.s. citizens were killed in mexico which has

been the most violence year in the drug war's history according to the u.s. state department. when senator chuck grassley, who we welcome here today, and i first learned about operation fast and furious earlier this year, we were both shocked that such a brutal and reckless and play at that particular timely reck lease program was executed by federal law enforcement. candidly at first, i believed that it had to be as it was being alleged and operation that was a few loose can notary publics not properly briefed. we released a joint report from the investigation entitled "operation fast and furious, accounts of the gtf agent." after these accounts and many depositions taken, the witnesses

who came forward, the whistle-blowers if you will, it is now clear there was not rogues at a local level, just the opposite. what we find is that people at the local level overwhelmingly objected to the program, but were assured it was approvedded at the highest levels. today we'll hear from the family of agent terry and how fast and furious devastated their lives and how agents saw the risk, opposed the program, and have come forward to tell the american people what happened. the american people have a right to know the facts about operation fast and furious and congress has a responsibility to find and reveal those facts. thus far, more than 30 democratic house members joined senator grassley and myself in calls for the truth. i hope this will continue to be

a bipartisan effort. i believe in spice of sloesness to agent by the administration, there has now become a focus on getting the truth out in a more timely fashion allowing the families to understand how it happened, and hopefully working to the with senator grassley and this committee to ensure it never happens again. that includes holding those whose judgment was so poor accountable, and with that, i recognize the ranking member for his opening statement. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman, and i thank you, mr. foreman, for holding this hearing. i'd like to start by saying a few words to the member of the terry family who are here today. over the past week, my family suffered a horrific tragedy, and in some ways similar to your own. nobody can really now how that feels until they go through it themselves. on the one hand, you want the criminals who did this to be brought to justice as fast as

possible and you want them punished for what they did, for who they took from you. on the other hand, that's after the fact. it simply will not bring them back so you also want answers. you want to know whether something could have been done to prevent their death, and you want to prevent it from happening to nip else in the future. i want you -- i want to tell you that i know how you feel, and i want to help as much as i can. of course, we want the prosecutors to succeed in bringing the perpetrators to justice. you also deserve direct and straightforward answers from your government, working together, we can, and must achieve both of these goals. i thank you for being here today. now, let me welcome senator grassley. your reputation as a defender of good government transcends party lines. i've always been impressed by

your determination, and i welcome you here today. you said something in your statement that in your written statement that i totally agree with, and i want to reiterate. you said any attempt to retaliate against them, speaking of the atf officers, of their testimony would be unfair, unwise, and unlawful. i've always taken that position, and i share that view with you, and i'll work with you to be sure that does not happen, and i'm sure it won't. let's welcome the atf agents here to provide testimony. it's not easy to testify in front of congress in normal circumstances, but more difficult testifying about allegations involving your own agency. that's tough. nevertheless, i know you are here today because you want to improve this process. timely, let me welcome mr. weich from the justice department. this will not be an easing hearing for you either, but i know you are here because you

want to improve this process. we look bard to talking with you -- we look forward to talking with you and the departments for ways to meet the obligations of the prosecution and the committee's oversight. we thank each and every one of you for your service to the country. we will have tough questions today, but you all deserve our curtesy and respect. on the substance of today's hearing, the allegations that have been made are very troubling, and new information we have attained raises additional concerns about the role of various actors involved in these incidents. based on the interviewed conducted by the committee so far and the documents we've reviewed to date, i have two concerns i'd like to explore. first, we'll hear testimony that surveillance of suspected straw purchasers was discontinued repeatedly, seamingly for no reason so agents could return to gun stores to start over with new suspects. the phoenix group hailing this

investigation was tiny with three to seven atf agents. although other offices and agencies were involved, the allegation is that these scarce resources were not used appropriately. second, we will hear testimony that specific individuals in the u.s. attorney's office in phoenix refused to prosecute legitimate and promising gun cases involving straw purchasers. this gives me great concern. it is not clear whether this was based on negative court decisions, inadequate resources, or other issues, but one thing is clear. the allegations relating to this particular office spans several years and several administrations. i want to make two additional points about today's hearing. this weekend, chairman issa stated on gnarl television that these hearings are not about finding the facts. he said, and i quote, "this is not a discovery process of what happened. we know what happened."

with all do respect, i strongly disagree. we do not know all the facts. we still have much to learn in this ongoing up vest gages, and we should not rush to judgment. finally, no legitimate examination of the issue will be complete without animal idahoing our -- analyzing our nation's gun laws which allows tens of thousands assault weapons to flood into mexico from the united states every year including snipers, variants, and scores of others, some of them landing in neighborhoods like mine, the one i represent in baltimore. when mexican president addressed congress in may, he pleaded for us to stop fueling a full-scale drug war with military grade assault weapons. in order to explore the issues further today, i'm exercising my rights under the rules, mr. chairman, of the house with several witnesses to testify about the issues in great

detail. i do not think it was necessary to call the witnesses for today's hearing, but i will work with the chairman on scheduling these hearings in the near future. timely, let me say this. special agent said something in the run statement we have to take note of. he says these words, "as a career law enforcement officer who has had to investigate the deaths of police officers, children, and others at the hands of armed criminals, i was and continue to be horrified." this is a piece to cop sen trait on. "i believe these firearms will continue to turn up at crime scenes on both sides of the border for years to come." with that, mr. chairman, i yield back. >> i thank the gentleman. we now recognize, oh, members have seven days to submit materials for the record. we recognize our first panel.

the distinguished senator charles grassley is the ranking member of the senate committee on judiciary. in that role, i have an opportunity to work with the senator on patent issues and in other issues of law enforcement, but today, the senator is here to speak about a joint investigation that has spanned many months and ultimately has consumed a great deal of the senator's personal time and attention, and i thank you for being here. your entire written statement is placed in the record, and you're recognized. >> these important hearings and for the great work that you and your staff have done in your constitutional responsibility of oversight. i'm grateful to agent brian terry's family for being here today, and i wish to express my sympathy for their loss. i hope that we can get the terry

family the answers that they deserve. i also want to thank the brave people who are testifying from the bureau of alcohol, tobacco, and firearms. these federal agents. i know that they are here to tell the unvannished truth. i also know that that can be very tough since they still work for the atf. these agents already risk their lives to keep us safe. they shouldn't have to risk their jobs as well, and continuing to highlight what congressman said, any attempt to retaliate against them for their testimony today would be up fair, unwise, and unlawful, and let me add to what congressman cummings said, and it's a personal front to this senator. when i became ranking member of the judiciary committee in jap, this was the first oversight issue to land on my desk.

several other senators' offices contacted my office to pass along these allegations about an atf case called operation fast and furious. at first, the allegation sounded too shocking to believe, but sadly, they turned out to be true. atf is supposed to stop criminals from trafficking guns to drug cartels or any place else. instead, the atf made it easier for alleged cartel middleman to get weapons from u.s. gun dealers. agents were actually ordered to stand by and watch these middle men, these straw purchasers by hundreds upon hundreds of weapons. agents warned that any action could lead to tramming di, but -- tragedy, but management didn't want to listen. we will hear from some of those

agents today and hear from their point of view. inaction would be bad enough, but atf went even further. atf een couraged gun -- encouraged gun dealers to sell to straw buyers. one worried profeteically about that risk. he wrote to atf about concerns that a border patrol agent mite end up facing the wrong end of one of those weapons. supervisors told the dealer, don't worry. so the agent said it was a bad idea, and the gun dealers said it was a bad idea. who thought it was a good idea? why did this happen? congress deserves answers to these questions. the president said it didn't authorize it, that he didn't authorize it, and that the

attorney general didn't authorize it. they have both admitted that quote-on-quote, "a serious mistake may have been meat." there's a lot of questions and a lot of investigating to do, but one thing has become clear already. this was no mistake. it was a conscious decision by senior officials. it was written down. it was briefed all the way up to washington, d.c. according to an internal briefing paper operation fast and furious was intentionally designed to "allow the transfer of firearms to continue to take place." why would the atf do such a thing? well, the next line in the brief paper tells us. it was, "to further the investigation and allow for the identification of an additional

co-conspirators." so, very clearly, thaf the goal -- that was the goal. the purpose of allowing straw buyers to keep buying was to find out who else maybe working with them. who else might be in their network of gun traffickers. of course, that assumes that they're part of a big sophisticated network. that kind of assumption can cause one to start with a conclusion, and then work back ward looking for the facts that fit the case. until you figure out that you got the cart before the horse, you're probably not going to get anywhere. professor of criminology, gary cleck, recently published an article in the "wall street journal" called "the myth of big time gun trafficking."

professor cleck said according to hissed study, atf handles about 15 operations each year that involve more than 250 guns. according to his study, a typical trafficking operation involved fewer than 12 guns so why would the atf make it a priority to identify large networks of traffickers? again, why would senior leadership decide to explicitly elevate that goal above atf's traditional work of seizing weapons that were illegally purchased. on october 26, 2009, e-mails indicate that there was a meeting of senior law enforcement officials at our

justice department. it appears to have included the heads of every law enforcement component of the department including directers of the fbi, the da, and the atf. it also included the u.s. attorneys for all the southwest border states, the directer of the organized crime drug enforcement task force, and the chairman of the attorney general's advisory committee. sounds like a pretty big important meeting, doesn't it? on the agenda at the meeting was a document describing the department's strategy for combating mexican cartels. in a section called "attacking the southbound flow of firearms," it says, and i quote from the document, "merely seizing firearms through interdiction will not stop firearms trafficking to mexico.

we must identify, investigate, and eliminate the sources of illegally trafficked firearms and the networks that transport them." well, the message in that document's pretty clear, isn't it? trying to identify networks of traffickers is more important than seizing weapons. this document was transmitted to the head of the phoenix field division on october the 27th, 2009. four days later, the phoenix field division began up vest gaiting -- investigating patino on suspicion of being involved in a gun trafficking ring. ten days after that, pate was coined his own -- assigned his own case number. after the case was on to him, he bought 34 guns from dealers

cooperating with the atf. that's nearly three times more than the typical gun trafficking operation according to the study in the wall wall" that i -- "wall street"wall street journal" that i just mentioned, but that was just the beginning. since the dealers were cooperator, atf received notices of each purchase right away. analysts enter the serial numbers into atf's suspect gun data base usually within days of the purchase. on november 20, one of the 34 guns patino bought turned up in mexico just 14 days after he bought it infection. atf learned of the recovery through a hit in a suspect gun data base on november 24. that same day, patino brought one into a cooperating gun

dealer, and they bought five more guns. atf had realtime notice from the dealer, and they race to the store to follow him, but they arrived too late. over the next six weeks, they bought 13 guns at dealers cooperating with the atf. the dealers notified the aft of each purchase right away. analysts entered the serial numbers in the data base usually within two days of purchase, yet atf did nothing to detour or interrupt the straw purchasers. he went back to a cooperating dealer and purchased three more ak-47-type weapons. they put the serial numbers in its data base. still, atf did nothing to stop them. eleven months later, two of the three rifles were recovered at

the scene of agent terry's murder. during those 11 months, he purchased another 34 arms, but patino purchased 539. again, cooperating gun dealers notified atf of each and every purchase. it usually talk about five days to enter the serial numbers into the atf data base, but atf had realtime or even advanced notice of the purchases from the dealers. atf even specifically approved a particular transaction. i'll give you an example. in august 2010, a gun dialer cooperating with the atf asked for guidance. patinomented 20 more -- mented 20 more weapons, but the dealer only had four in stock. the dealer told aatf if he were

to sell the give ups, he had to obtain the 16 others to attain the october. we would like you to go through with the request and order additional firearms. at this point, atf already knew that he had bought 673 guns from cooperating dealers, and that many had already been recovered at crime scenes. i want to be clear that we don't know for sure whether this particular order was filled for these additional 16 guns, however, these new e-mails support what agents and dealers have been telling us for many months. according to them, dealers identified atf with any of the straw purchasers bought guns before, during, or at least shortly after the sale. we don't know what the exact

totals are, but we know that the suspect gun data base had at least 1,880 guns related to the case, with a third of them high powerful rifles. the straw purchaser bought 212 guns in just six days in december of 2009. 70% of all give ups in the data base were bought by just five straw purchasers. if atf agents had been allowed to stop just those five buyers, most of the guns in this case would not have fallen into the wrong hands. finally, i want to say something about the politics of gun control. this investigation is not about politics. it's about getting the facts. that's what constitutional responsibility of oversight is all about.

that's our checks and balances of government. no matter what side of that issue you're on, the facts here should be disturbing. there will be plenty of time for both sides to argue about policy implications of all of this at some point, but i hope that we can do that at another day. today, is all about these agents not being allowed to do their job. today is about the terry family and their search for the truth. too often we want to make everything about politics. we pick sides and only listen to what we want to hear. at least for today, let's just listen to these agents, and let's just listen to this family and hear what they have to say. let's hear their stories and hear is loud and clearly. let's then work together to get

answers for this family and the other families who may have suffered. it's time to get to the truths and hold our government accountable. the public's plies ought to be public, the public's right to know, and with the public's right to know comes that accountability. that's the checks and balances of our government, and that's what congressional oversight is all about. thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you, senator. thank you for taking so much time out of your schedule to testify here today. we'll set up for the next panel and take a short recess. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]

[inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] >> the hearing will come to order, please. we'll now recognize our next panel of witnesses. mrs. josefien terry, the mother of the late agent. mr. robert heyer is the cousin of the late border agent terry. we would like to enter deuce his

father who is unable to be here today, content terry, his stepmother, and older brother kent terry, j.r., and his older sister. our thoughts are with agent terry and his family as they continue to mourn the up timely passing of their loved one. the remaining witnesses are mr. john dodson, a special agent in the phoenix field division of the alcohol, tobacco, firearms, and explosives. mr. olindo "lee" casa is special agent of the phoenix field division, and mr. peter forcelli

is the bureau of alcohol, gabbing, and firearms. ladies and gentlemen, all witnesses are to be sworn in order to testify. would you please rise to take the oath? raise your right hands. do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? let the record reflect that all witnesses answered in the affirmative. please be seated. ..ll witnesses answered in the affirmative. please be seated. in order to allow time, particularly with such a large panel, your entire written statement and any inclusive material you want to have put in the record will be placed in the record. so feel free to summarize, try to stay within five minutes.

for the field agents, we will hold you closer to it, mother and sister, not so much. we'll start with mr. hyer, you're recognized for five minutes. >> good morning, chairman. ranking member cummings, and other members of the committee, my name is robert hyer, i am the cousin of slain border patrol agent brian a. terry. as you know, i'm joined on the panel this morning with brian's mother josephine and his older sister michelle. they have asked me to give this opening statement on behalf of the entire terry family. it was just ten days before christmas last year when our family received the devastating news.

brian had been shot and killed while engaged in a fire fight with a group of individuals seeking to do harm to american citizens and others. we knew that brian faced imminent danger on a daily basis as a part of his chosen career. but we also knew that he and his unit were highly trained and equipped with the best weapons this country could provide to the fighting minnesota and women. they were confident in overcoming any threat they may face in the section of desert they patrolled. he and his team provided themselves as being the tip of the spear that defended this country and its borders. the telephone call came in the middle of the night. i know this type of horrible notification has been received many times during the past ten years by families of our

military sons and daughters as the united states has fought wars in both iraq and afghanistan. after all, brian had taken an oath to defend this country from all terrorist threats. what makes brian's death so shocking to his family is that he did not die in a foreign battlefield. he was killed in the line of duty as a u.s. border patrol agent. he died not in iraq or afghanistan, but in the desert outside of arizona. some 18 miles inside of the u.s./mexican border. his killers were not taliban insurgents or al qaeda fighters, but a small group of mexican drug cartel bandits heavily armed with ak-47 assault rifles. the rifles and the ammunition

that they carried in those weapons were designed to do one thing and that was to kill. brian was an amazing man. and i say that not just because he was family. many people thought he was almost superhuman. after his death, we visited his former duty stations in arizona. each time we've met one of his fellow agents, they spoke of how impressed they were with him. he was what we expect in our brothers and sons. strong, competitive, handsome, courageous, funny, and incredibly patriotic american. some of his co-workers even had bestowed him with a nickname of superman.

brian was very proud to serve as a federal agent. he had joined the united states marine corps right after high school. he went on to college and earned a bachelor of science degree in criminal justice. he then became a local police officer in the communities of lincoln park michigan. when he sought to have more of an impact on keeping this country safe, he joined the border patrol. brian, it seemed, had found his niche. before long, he tried out and became a member of the border patrol's elite tactical unit known as bortac. at age 40, he had much to look forward to, which included getting married and starting a family. but for now, he was living his dream. he wore his insignia with great pride and excelled as a team member.

during training, brian was given a classroom writing assignment. the assignment was to write something about himself that would give the instructors some insight as to who he was. he composed a poem that he entitled, if today is to be the day, so be it. i'd like to read you that poem so you can have a better understanding of the man he was. if you seek to do battle with me this day, you will receive the best i am capable of giving. it may not be enough, but it will be everything that i have to give. and it will be impressive for i have constantly prepared myself for this day. i have trained, drilled, and rehearsed my actions so that i might have the best chance at defeating you. i have kept myself in peak physical condition, and have become proficient in the

applications of combat tactics. you may defeat me, but i'm willing to die if necessary. i do not fear death, for i have been close enough to it on enough occasions that it no longer concerns me. but i do fear the loss of my honor. and would rather die fighting to have it said that i was without courage. so i will fight you. no matter how insurmountable it may seem, to the death if need be, in order that it may never be said of me that i was not a warrior. brian was due to complete his shift of duty that night in the desert outside of rio rico at midnight on december 15th. and then takes some much-deserved time off. he had already made his travel plans to fly back to michigan and spend a christmas holiday with his family. brian's attention to detail had ensured that all the christmas

gifts he had meticulously metic selected for his family had already been bought and sent in the mail prior to his arrival. brian did ultimately come home that christmas. we buried him not far from the house that he was raised in just prior to christmas day. the gifts that brian had picked out with such thought and care began to arrive in the mail the same week. with each delivery we felt the indescribable pain of brian's death. but at the same time, also remembered his amazing love and

spir spirit. we hope that you now know a little bit more about our brian. we ask that you honor his memory by continuing to ensure what he worked so hard to do and ultimately gave his life doing. that is to keep this country safe and its border secure. we hope that the bureau of alcohol, tobacco and firearms is forthcoming with all information that the panel is seeking. we ask that if a government official made a wrong decision, that they admit their error and take responsibility for his or her actions. we hope that all individuals

involved in brian's murder and those that played a role in putting the assault weapons in their hands are found and prosecuted to the full extent of the law. finally, it's our hope that no more law enforcement officers die at the hands of these heavily armed mexican drug cartel members operating on and inside the borders of the united states. the terry family would like to acknowledge and thank the special agents and the fbi's tucson field office and the prosecutors and the u.s. attorneys in the tucson office that have worked so hard, and continue to work in bringing brian's killers to justice. we want to acknowledge the courage and integrity of the three special agent of atf from

the tucson office sitting with us on this panel. we recognize the professional risk you face by coming forward and speaking to the public about an investigation that you believe was ill conceived and reckless. the marine corps has the motto, which most of you know which is latin for always faithful. the border patrol has the motto of honor first. brian lived a life of honor, duty and sacrifice, which reflected both of these mottos and the two organization that he was so proud to serve in. it is now up to all of us to put honor first and to remain always faithful in the quest for justice. on behalf of the entire terry family, thank you.

>> thank you. special agent dodson, you're recognized for five minutes. >> mr. chairman, ranking member cummings -- >> please pull the mike a little closer and make sure that's on. >> is that better? mr. chairman, ranking member coming, other honorable members of this committee thank you. begin with my military service and continuing through today i'm proud to have spent my entire adult life in service to this country. to defend its constitution with my allegiance pledged to this republic. i spent the vast majority of my law enforcement career conducting criminal investigations with the particular focus on those involving the trafficking of narcotics and firearms. i have been involve in countless investigations and arrest from basic misdeamnors to complex conspiracies. many times as an undercover. i have made thousands of investigative stops and scores

of arrest and testified many time in fed and state courts often as a qualified expert. do i not appear before you as some remote observer of these events casting a judgmental finger over the actions of other. acome bearing only my firsthand account. i've not the burdens of rendering judgment, determining responsibility or holding others accountable. i yield those to this committee. the only message i hope to convey is that through this process some resolve may be brought to the families of brian terry. that we may truly honor their service and mourn their sacrifice. i hope your inquiry and those of senator grassley's office and the inspector general will account for many others who have already been or will be affected by this operation. furthermore, i'm grateful to have the opportunity to appear here today, alongside the terry family so i may personally express to them my sorrow and my regret. simply put, during this

operation referred to as fast and furious, we the atf, failed to fulfill one of our most fundamental obligation, to care take the public trust, to keep guns out of criminals. when i became involved in this operation, i was briefed the local phoenix firearms dealers provided them with a list of individuals who was purchasing guns for others. of these individuals several members have connections with mexican drug cartels. those identified straw purchasers were the initial suspects of this investigation. from the earliest days of that operation after the briefing, i had no question that the individuals we were watching were acting as straw purchasers and that the weapons they purchased would soon be trafficked to mexico or other locales along the southwest border and ultimately these firearms would be used in a violent crime. however, we did nothing to

intervene. over the course of the next ten months we monitored as they purchased hand guns, and caliber rivals. almost daily at times. rather than conduct any enforcement actions we took notes, recorded observations, we tracked moments of these individuals. we were wrote reports but nothing more. knowing that the guns we saw these individuals buy were being turned up in incriminate scenes in the united states and mexico and yet we still did nothing. i recall, for example, one suspect as he met with another receive a bagful of cash. that cash then proceeded to another who conducted a transaction of firearms that we authorized him to do. this straw purchaser left the federal firearms dealer and met again with that third-party and delivered the firearms to him. and still we did nothing. although my instincts maybe want

to intervene, my supervisors directed me and my colleagues not to make any stop or arrest but rather to keep him under surveillance while allowing the guns. these were the rules. they were not the exceptions. this is not a matter of some weapons that gotten away from us or allowing a few to walk so we can follow them to a much larger more significant target. allowing loads of weapons we knew destined for criminals was the plan, this was mandate. i remember a lecture by army lieutenant colonel dave grossman. i borrow from it now. atf is supposed to be the guardian, the sheep dogs that protect against the wolves that prey upon us. rather than meet the wolf head on we sharpen his teeth, added number to his claw, all the while we sat idly by watching, tracking and noting as he became more efficient and effective predator. prior to my coming to phoenix i had never been involved in or

even heard an operation in which law enforcement officers let guns walk. the very idea of doing so is unthinkable to most law enforcement. i and other field agents involved in this operation repeatedly raised concerns with our supervisors. in response we were told we didn't understand the plan. i cannot begin to think of how the risk of letting guns fall into the hand of known criminals could possibly advance any possible legitimate law enforcement interest. i hope the committee receives a better explanation than i. i look forward to answering any questions that any of you may have. >> thank you, sir. special agent casa. >> good morning, mr. chairman. good morning mr. cummings. good morning honorable members of congress. i'm a senior special agent with the bureau of atf. i've been employed with atf since march of 1993 as both an inspector and later as a special at. i'm assigned to the phoenix field division, phoenix group

seven and a strike force group. i've been assigned to that group since december 2009 to the present. as a special agent with atf, i've been a case agent, a co-case agent, and i participated in many firearms trafficking investigations, both domestic and international in scope. needless to say i feel i have extensive experience in regards to firearms trafficking investigations and my work has resulted in successful prosecution of many individuals who violated the law. after reporting to phoenix group seven office in december of 2009, i was briefed by group members on the investigation fast and furious. shortly after i became aware of what i believed to be unusual and questionable investigative technique, for instance i became aware certain straw purchasers were purchasing numerous firearms from firearm dealers but what i found concerning and alarm is more times than not no law enforcement activity was planned to stop these straw purchasers from purchasing

firearms. the only law enforcement activity that was occasionally taken the office conduct surveillance of the transaction and then nothing more. as the investigation progressed over the next couple of months, again with no obvious attempts to get the weapons or interview suspect, around the same time, phoenix group seven started to get traces to mexico. many traces to close the straw purchasers who were responsible for purchasing those recovered firearms. at this time several special agents in the group including myself became concerned and alarmed at case agent mcallister and group supervisor's refusal to stop the straw purchasers from purchasing additional firearms. specialing agent john dodson and i raised our concerns directly with the case agent, cold case agent and group supervisor to no avail. in response to our increasingly

voiced concern, the group supervisor issued the infamous e-mail. it was a direct threat to the special agents who were not in agreement in how the case agent mcallister, co-case agent english or the group managed the investigation. based on my 18 years of experience with atf i did not think the e-mail was an empty threat. i took it very serious. it has been common practice for atf supervisors to retaliate against employees who don't to you the company line. daily surveillance of straw purchasers started to be conducted by group seven as well as other special agents from other offices. atf special agent alt reported to the phoenix group seven office around this period of time and like special agent dodson and i became alarmed of the direction of the investigation and spoke out against the practices that were being utilized. by role during these daily

surveillances was that of shift supervisor. as a shift supervisor my responsibility was to oversee agents, case agent mcallister and co-case agent english. my fears were realized. on numerous occasions, straw purchasers bought and depart with numerous firearms in hand. on many occasions the surveillance team would follow the straw purchasers to residents, pueblo cakes or until the surveillance team was spotted. the end result was the same. the surveillance was terminated by the case agent, co-case agent or supervisor without seizing the firearms. on several occasions i personally requested to seize the firearms in such a manner that would only further the

investigation but i was always told to stand down and not seize the guy arms. i made this request over the air and had many law enforcement witnesses that could verify my assertions. reflecting back to that period of time during the investigation, i thought the poor decisions were made due to incompetency or lack of experience which would have made the situation bad enough. unfortunately in light of recent documents that were released, it appears investigation was conducted in a recklessly planned manner with a specific strategy in mind. further briefing paper the strategy the office allow the transfer of firearms to take place in order to further the investigation and allow for the identification of additional co-conspirators who would continue to operate. special agent dodson, special agent alt and i at times on a daily basis would warn of the reckless course they were taking. we stern lie warned them of the consequences of their actions but were ignored. on at least a couple of

occasions i witnessed special agent dodson to prepare to attend the funeral of a slain officer. neither one answered or even seemed concerned by the question posed to them. to close i would like to extend my heart felt condolences to border patrol agent brian terry's family. i'm truly sorry for your loss. i hope you find peace. >> thank you. special agent furcelli. >> good morning. i thank you for the opportunity to appear before the committee today. i'm here to provide testimony that i hope will assist in your inquiry into the investigation that has come to be known as operation fast and furious. i believe that your inquiry is essential. there have been grave mistakes made in this case and the committee, the american people, and the family of slain border patrol agent brian terry deserve

answers. please allow me to give you a little background information about myself. in 1987 i began my career with the new york city police department. i worked as an uniform police in the bronx. in my career i estimate i responded to approximately 600 homicide scenes. the vast majority were drug related committed by armed criminals and these violent criminals were armed with illegal firearms and had little regard for human life. i retired early in june of 2001 to take a position with the alcohol, tobacco and firearms and then i did this because i had the honor of working with atf agents who were making great cases, working hand-in-hand with incredible prosecutors from the southern and eastern districts of new york and work with these officers one thing was very clear. dedicated prosecutorsing worked hand-in-hand with dedicated atf agents to make great cases that truly impacted the safety of the public. there was an absolute sense of teamwork and respect.

again, i'll emphasize the words teamwork and respect. together with prosecutors from the u.s. attorney's offices whom i worked we used confidential informant, prove fer, cooperation agreements, waivers of speedy presentment, investigative grand juries and grand jury subpoenas and other investigative tools to make successful cases as part of a team. i left the new york field division to begin work in my current duty as supervisor of the phoenix one field office. within weeks i was surprised at what i observed. in my opinion, in my professional opinion dozens of firearm traffickers were given a pass by the united states attorneys office for the district of arizona. despite the existence and probable cause in many case, no indictments, no prosecutions and criminals were allowed to walk free. we were forced to turn prosecution for firearm case.

victor ravella who trafficked weapons to mexico one of which was to kill a mexico military commander was successfully prosecuted by the arizona attorney general. mr. ravelli was released from jail last july. the alternative no prosecution, in my eyes was unacceptable. another case which involved a corrupt federal firearms licensee, who was supplying several firearms to trafficking organizations was declined by mr. harley. this particular dealer in his post-arrest statement admitted approximately 1,000 of his firearms were trafficked to mexico. over one half-dozen of those firearms were located around the body of the head of the cartel after he was killed in a gun

battle in mexico. cases such as these were presented for prosecution to the arizona attorney general's office where the state laws carried significantly lesser penalties than they did under the federal statutes and i believe this situation where in the u.s. attorney's office for the district of arizona in phoenix in particularly declined most of our firearms cases was one factor which led to the debacle that's now known as operation of fast and furious. atf agents assigned to the phoenix field division with the concurrence of their command walked guns. atf agents allowed weapons to be provided to individuals who they knew to be trafficked to members of the mexican drug trafficking organizations. they did so by not interdict the weapons. when i voiced surprising concern

with this tactic, my concerns were dismissed. the cases were groundbreaking and bragged we were the only people in the country doing this. i was also told you know if you or i were on the case it wouldn't be run this way. i've read documents that indicate that his boss u.s. attorney dennis burke also agreed with the direction of this case. allowing firearms to be trafficked to criminals is a deadly strategy. the thought that the techniques used in the investigation would result in taking down a cartel, giving the toothless nature of the law is, in my opinion, delusional. based upon my conversations with agents who assisted in this case, surveillance was often terminated on individuals far from the border.

while the case agent believed these weapons were destined for mexico the possibility is they were trafficked to other points within the united states of america. as a career law enforcement officer who has had to investigate the deaths of police officers, children and others at the hands of armed criminals i was and continue to be horrified, truly horrified. i believe that these firearms will continue to turn up at crime scenes on both sides of the border for years to come. in closing i want all americans to know this is not how atf agents conduct business. i'm very proud of some of the incredible work on behalf of atf agents every day. atf agents have given their lives. on my last trip back to new york i had the privilege of being present for a homicide trial. in that same courthouse in the southern district of new york there were three other separate homicide trials going on all from three separate atf initiated investigations. that's the type of work atf agents do every day and that's what i want the committee to keep in mind as well. i thank you for your time.

and, again, my condolences to the terry family. >> i thank you. thank all of our witnesses. i recognize myself for the first-round of questioning. mrs. terry, i understand the u.s. attorney in arizona visited you in december. you could tell us in your own words what he had to say? >> which attorney are you talking about? >> this is the u.s. attorney from arizona that came to visit you in december. >> yes. that was mr. burke. >> and what did he have to say to you? >> he was just trying to explain to us exactly what happened and in a roundabout way. we really never got anything out of the visit that he did have. >> now, if he didn't tell you at that time that the firearms that killed your son came from this operation, when did you learn

about fast and furious and its connection to your son's death? >> most of it i heard from the media. we haven't really got anything direct, phone calls, nothing, from anybody. >> hopefully today we'll bring you some better answers on that. mr. hyer, i understand recently you received a call from the u.s. attorney's office in arizona. you could please tell us the content of that call? >> the u.s. attorney, dennis burke, has tried to keep us advised on the prosecution of the individuals believed to have a hand in brian's death. so i received a telephone call whenever an indictment was going to be made, and also some information about where the

investigation was going with respect to brian's killers. >> did he ever comment about your testimony here today? >> he did not. >> okay. mr. dodson, just yesterday the justice department said the following, and i'll make a su r suppositon for the record that this is untimely for this that came out. an unnamed law enforcement source said to the "new york times", they said gun ownership was such an ingrained part of the culture in arizona that it was difficult to tell straw purchasers from legal ones without blank, blank, blank. did you have trouble discerning that? was it so difficult because of the culture that in fact any of

you didn't know who the straw purchasers were? >> no, sir, not at all. first of all, i would question that unknown law enforcement source as to his background on these matters. >> here we call it washington spin. >> yes, sir. [ laughter ] >> sir, i can tell you this. in my knowledge and experience, when i got to phoenix the briefing i got initially and the 40 some suspects that were identified right off the bat, or had already identified, those cases were made against those individuals, most of them almost that day if not all of them. to identify a straw purchaser from a normal american citizen who just happens to reside in the state where a gun culture is so prominent, perhaps if a one on one scenario existed or a one time but to have an individual purchase hundreds of firearms over the course of an investigation while we're

watching him, there's -- make no mistake and he was straw purchaser. >> you probably agree when you see somebody buy hundreds, dozens or hundreds and take them to a drop point and even often more information it's pretty obvious they are a straw purchaser, you made your case under any kind of normal prosecution, wouldn't you? >> yes, sir, that's correct. >> mr. hyer, your a secret service agent, probably qualifies you as much as anyone that could be in this room to understand a question i'm going to ask you but you're also a family member. to date, the straw purchasers that were part of the chain of weapons that led to the murder of your cousin, they haven't been charged with that crime? they have been charged with -- whatever it is call, buy and lie, basically signing a false affidavit that they were the actual buyer of a gun. do you believe that it is reasonable to be including them in their connection to the

murder of brian terry? >> congressman, again, i'm here as strictly family today and not as secret service agent. >> then for peter fucelli, you mentioned the prosecutions you see, including new york. you buy a gun. you knowingly sell it to a third-party. you lied about it at least to the murder. isn't that how you get connected to that trial in addition to the trigger puller. >> yes, sir. a sequence of events you put together through interviews and other techniques. >> it's pretty unusual to have the murder, a high-profile murder of a border patrol agent and you don't roll up everybody involved into the prosecution which is taking place practically today? >> in all fairness, sir, i don't know what steps the fbi has taken in their investigation because that information has not been related to me at any point. >> mrs. terry we'll do everything we can to get full

answers and fuel prosecution. we want whatever will be the greatest relief we can give you to let you know this won't happen again. >> thank you. >> thank you. we now recognize the ranking member for his question. >> i want to thank all of you for being here today, and to the terry family we thank you for your sacrifice. to mrs. terry, you raised an angel. when the description was made by, when i listened to that poem, that poem said it all. i want to say to the family, i understand your pain. and i promise you we will not rest and to the agents, we will not rest, we will not rest until every single person responsible for all of this, no matter where they are are put to justice.

and you said it best mr. hyer, in your statement, the thing you said, you said it is now up to all of us to put honor first and to remain always faithful in the quest for justice. and you're absolutely right. and i promise you, we will not fail you. to the atf officers, i thank you. as i said earlier, this has got to be very, very difficult. and i make a commitment to you and it's what senator grassley said and i want the word to go out, let it go forth. that we want absolutely no retaliation against you. you're simply standing up for what you believe in. you are simply carrying out your oath of office. you simply have been great americans and continue to be and we thank you. we thank you so very, very much. we thank you for your bravery

and we thank you for what you're doing. one of the most troubling allegations we've heard during this investigation is that the atf agents group seven were ordered to terminate surveillance and monitoring of suspected straw purchasers without seizing the firearms. spectacle agent casa you made this statement. we fold straw purchasers to phoenix firearms dealers and observed the straw purchasers buy and depart with numerous firearms in hand. on many occasions the surveillance team would then follow the straw purchasers either to a public location or until the team was observed. do you know why the surveillance was terminated? was it -- do you think it was a resource problem or of it a strategy type of thing? >> no, sir. we had plenty of resources. i believe it was a strategy. as i indicated later in my

statement i found out about the briefing papers. at the time this was going on we had no idea why things were occurring. we were told to fall in line and do what we were told. >> you raised those concerns with your group supervisor? >> yes, sir. >> special agent dodson you participated in a transcribed interview with the committee and your account is quite similar. let me read what you said from the transcript. you said sometimes we would follow them back to their house, sometimes, to you know, a different house or a business or to meet another vehicle in a parking lot and then we would have to come back to head to another ffl because one of the other suspects, they were buying 15 or 20 of his own. special agent dodson, again, i'm trying to understand this. if you're following a suspected straw purchase and you started the gun store and follow it to a house, why wouldn't you keep following that gun?

>> sir, that's the one question that i can't answer for you is the why. it made no sense to us either. it's what we were ordered to do and every time we questioned that order, you know, there was punitive action against those of us who did so. as to why we would let them go or tuck them in bed at home and us leave for the night i can tell you the why, sir. that's why hopefully this committee can find out. >> we're going to find out. i under that there might be a new suspected -- i understand there might be new suspected straw purchases happening back at the gun store but if you keep leaving the guns you're following, start tracking new ones that doesn't seem to work. that's what you all are saying. did you raise your concerns, those concerns with your supervisor? >> yes, sir. many times. >> have either of you ever received an explanation as to why this operation would voluntarily terminate surveillance of suspected weapon

traffickers? anybody? >> sir, no. most of the time when asked or pressed for answer to that question, it was relayed to me that they didn't have to explain anything to me. i was to do as i was told. there were times when i questioned that even further our boss would have an asap come down and have a meeting and he would explain to us in his way of how he was not obligated to explain it any further to us and we needed to follow orders. >> i think we're missing a piece of the puzzle here and i think we must do more. it sound like both of you raised concerns with your supervisor and i don't want to reach any conclusions on this yet because i think we need to dear more information. i think it makes sense to talk to the supervisor and figure out what his answer to these allegations might be. thank you, mr. chairman. i yield back. >> thank you. i'm assuming you join me in assuring that all of the other

people above these gentlemen will be interviewed in a prompt fashion including those here in washington? >> mr. chairman, absolutely no doubt about it. and at the same time i'm glad you asked that question because we want to make sure, as i said, we want to make sure in the word of mr. hyer that everyone is brought to justice. let me be abundantly clear since you asked the question. i want to make sure there's no person, i don't care who they are, whose trial is jeopardized, that is able to get away, to get off of charges, i don't care how it's connected with this, i don't want their trials jeopardized. as a part of this court and one who practiced for many years i'm concerned about that. i think we can reach a balance. i've urged the justice department to cooperate. they have expressed their concerns. but, again, as i said before and i promise this family, i promise you, i'll do everything in my power. i will not rest until we bring

everybody to justice. >> i thank the gentleman. we now recognize the gentleman from oklahoma mr. langford for five minutes. >> thank you. thank you all for being here. this has got to be a difficult day and not a day you ever hoped to be testifying in front of a congressional hearing, especially related to something like this. so we very much appreciate your time and for being here as well. let me ask several questions. give me your best guess and it's just a guess on this, how many weapons do we have in the united states or in mexico that are out there that are a result of fast and furious that we do not know where they are? >> sir, my best guess estimate and remembering that fast and furious was one case from one group in one field division. it's about 2,500 totally or in total that we facilitated the sale of to these known straw

purchasers, and i've heard numbers as many as 300 to 800 or so that we know to have been recovered. so outstanding, you're looking in the ballpark of anywhere from 1,000 to 1500, 1800 guns still. >> what's your best guess how many are in mexico and how many are in the united states? >> i would say 2-1, mexico versus united states. >> okay. were there any other mechanisms discussed to trace these weapons you knew were being sold to straw purchasers other than serial numbers. any other way to track them, trace them? >> yes, sir. >> how successful do you think that was? >> i can tell you that after a trip to radioshack with atf funds, i myself manufactured a gps tracking device that would fit inside the handle of an variant rifle. other attempts were made to have gps systems, a gps system wired

into one ak variant rifle. >> how was that received by supervisor? >> the one that went through our tech section nfc shy atd by them after my attempt to manufacture one didn't work out so well. the one we got from our tech side did actually work, and although it achieved its purpose in the last time i believe anyone knew it's whereabouts was about 50 miles south of the u.s.-mexican border. >> special agent casa, do you know of any other offices of atf using this type of strategy? >> not that i'm aware of, no, sir. >> would you consider this a common practice that's being contemplated in any other area? >> no, sir. i definitely hope not. >> let me follow up on a statement that you made that's a very, very serious statement. you made the statement in your opening statement, it's a common practice for supervisors to

retaliate on special agents who do not tow the company line. >> yes, sir. >> that's a pretty serious statement. >> it's commonplace within atf, sir. >> is that unique to your area or is that unique to multiple areas, you think of atf? >> my experience within multiple areas within atf. i've known multiple, dozens of agents that have been, that have been received punitive punishments. whether they were justified or not. >> okay. mr. fucelli. >> yes, sir. >> do we have a perfect storm here of a u.s. attorney who is not willing to prosecute federal gun laws and a group of supervisors in atf that are promoting guns here or is there a sense that there's something coordinated going on. i understand this is a guess. >> what we have here is a failure in leadership within the

chain of command within the united states attorney's office and doj and individuals. to walk a single gun is an idiotic move. more families will suffer at the hands of armed criminals. er with weren't giving guns to people hunting bear, we were giving guns to people killing other humans. the assumption all these guns went to mexico is something they believed in that group. >> but your assumption this was coordinated among all these individuals, this plan would happen and it was going to be allowed to happen. >> allowed to happen and trace guns into mexico, identify a cartel and take them down. the problem that we have is i know based on what i've heard from agents and what i heard over the radio, surveillance was terminated often far from the bore terrify. some of these guns could be diverted with cartel funds to new york, baltimore, anywhere in the united states. that was a disaster.

>> thank you. with that i yield back my time. >> we now recognize the gentlelady from new york, administers mccarthy. maloney. i'm sorry. you're both new york but i know the difference. >> thank you for calling this important hearing and i join my colleagues in expressing our condolences and support the terry family. and i thank all of the professionals in law enforcement for your work and your bravery. and i especially want to welcome special agent furcelli since i used to have the honor of representing the beautiful bronx of where you served, and i appreciate your statements in support of the atf in new york and their fine work. i would like to ask you, special agent furcelli, some of the specific statements in your testimony to try to get a better understanding of what evidence is necessary in order to get a

conviction in these cases. and if i understand this correctly, there is no federal statute that specifically prohibits straw purchases, is that correct? >> no, ma'am. there is a statute but the statute doesn't carry significant jail time and candidly -- i had great success in working with several mr. stwrags the u.s. attorney's office in new york and we used basic techniques. you arrest the people who are the bottom feeders, lower people in an organization and you proffer them. gather information. utilize waivers of speedy presentment where you have somebody go do a delivery in the street to catch the next guy in the chain. have the straw guy deliver the firearms to the trafficker and arrest the trafficker. we didn't have those tools available to us in arizona because the united states attorney's office wouldn't allow us to utilize waivers of speedy presentment before a magistrate. proffers almost never happened. the basic investigative

techniques that i used in the southern district of new york, eastern district of new york and elsewhere weren't being deployed in the district ever arizona. >> working with my staff when we looked into it, straw purchases are typically charged under section 922 and 924 of the criminal code and these sections make it a crime to knowingly make a false statement. and in this case the false statement would be when a straw purchaser lies on a form 4473, when he or she makes a straw purchase. this was the way that they went after straw purchases in other states. are you ware of these two sections, and knowingly making a false statement? are you ware of that particular -- >> i am, ma'am. again, i'll just seat in many significances these cases weren't prosecuted by the u.s. attorney's office. . it get back to the false statement. and what is the false name they would make on such a form that they could use in prosecutions?

are you aware? >> well, the most blatant one is there's a box that you check whether or not our buying the gun for yourself. a straw purchaser clearly is not. >> getting back to your statement on the prosecutions of border state u.s. attorneys have complained that district court judges view these prosecutions as mere paper violations and have you heard this criticism before? >> i have and i agree with it. i think perhaps a mandatory minimum one year sentence might deter an individual from buying a gun. some people view this no more than doing 65 in a 55. >> if the gentlelady will suspended. i want to caution the witnesses that the scope of this, your testimony here is limited, and that it's not about proposed legislation and the like and under house rules would not fall within the scope of this. so, anecdotally you can have

opinions but it's not considered valid testimony. >> point of order. >> yes. >> let me just -- the officer for sully in his, in his testimony has a statement, mr. chairman, that i read where he says that these firearms are ending up on both sides of the border. and i think it's only fair that since it's his statement that want she, and that's basically what she's pretty much going to -- >> the gentlelady can ask any question she wants within the scope of the hearing. under rule 11 clause 2k8 it's the discretion of the committee as to the breadth of the testimony. any question related to the operation or the failures of fast and furious or fact the all indications of what occurred in arizona or throughout the system

are within the scope of the hearing, proposed legislation at a federal level and whether or not they should be changed are outside the scope of not only this hearing but would not ordinarily fall under the jurisdiction of this committee. >> further point of order, mr. chairman. it's my understanding of the rules is that you can object to the question but you can't tell the witness what to testify to. >> you're cutting into my time. i appreciate the chairman's statement. and i appreciate your statement earlier you wanted full answer and full prosecution. i think it's certainly within the scope of this hearing to understand why we're not getting a full prosecution. and the allegation that they call them paper excuses as opposed to a valid concrete way to react i think is a valid way to go forward. i'm supporting your statements. >> the gentlelady's questions and whether or not the gentleman believes that law enforcement

was doing its job or that the courts were properly enforcing and whether that may have led to actions is fully within the scope. anything that these individuals witnessed in or around fast and furious is certainly within the scope. i only caution we're not here to talk about proposed gun legislation, it would be outside the skoech this hearing. >> wasn't discussing that. i was trying to figure out why the justice department and the a.g. found prosecutors often declined these gun cases. i want to know why they are declining them. to quote from the testimony, one of you said because they believe it is difficult to obtain convictions on these violations and because they believe it is difficult to obtain paper work from mexico. and my question is are these valid excuses not to bring these cases. i think that's a valid question as to why we're not getting prosecutions in these cases? are they valid excuses to say they are paper excuses not to bring it? >> i believe not, ma'am.

to go after the mid-level and upper level members of the cartel you need to start unless you have evidence on them immediately with the people at the bottom of the food chain. when straw buyer cases are dismissed because of excuses made up by the united states attorney's office, then you can't prosecute that body feeder to move up to the next level. >> one of you in your testimonies called these laws toothless, and you could explain to me why our existing straw purchase laws toothless? >> my opinion, ma'am, is that with these types of cases, for somebody to testify against members of a cartel where the alternative is seeing a probation officer once a month, they will opt towards not cooperating with the law enforcement authorities. >> and what would help your interactions with u.s. attorneys office? mr. casa, mr. furcelli or

others, what would help you to be able to be part of getting convictions in bringing those to justice that are part of these straw purchases that led to the death of mrs. terry's son. >> the gentlelady's time has expired. can you answer that. >> first and foremost they need more resources the u.s. attorney's office in arizona. there are overwhelming numbers of gun crimes occurring there. if they don't have the resources to prosecute them then i imagine they would need some assistance in those regards. >> we now recognize the gentleman from idaho, mr. labrador for five minutes. >> thank you. terry family, thank you for being here. i will always remember the poem and i think i'm going to put this on my wall. do i not fear death but do i fear loss of my honor. i think that's something hopefully every member of congress can somehow remember. i think sometimes we worry too much in death and in our case

death is the next election and too many of us forget that what we should be worried about is our northern and the honor of this nation. so thank you, mrs. terry, for raising a great son. i have five children and i can even imagine what you're going through. when did you mrs. terry, when did you first hear that -- i think you said you first heard about the weapons being purchased through the operation fast and furious. you heard that through the media or did you hear that from any of the agencies? >> no. excuse me. mostly on tv, the media, newspapers. i never really got a call about anything like that until it was brought out in the newspaper. >> okay. how did you feel when you heard about that? >> i was -- i just was

flabbergasted. i didn't believe it at first. >> did you have any questions, did any questions come to your mind when you started learning that maybe there was something? because i think -- i heard about this when i was first elected. i'm a freshman here. i was just first elected. right after my election i started to hear from people in my district about this and we were, in fact, some of the first to call for a hearing here in congress about this. and in the house. and what went through your mind? what were some of the thoughts that you had? >> well, i did ask a lot about how it happened, when it happened, why it happened. but never got no answers because nobody wanted to say anything. >> so did you address these questions with the department of justice or any members of -- >> yes. >> no one has answered those questions. >> we got a lot of different answers. >> to whom did you speak

specifically, do you remember? >> well we've been to so many memorials and talked to so many people. but i've talked to a lot of his bortac friends that were on the unit that was with him. and they were like under gag orders so they couldn't tell us anything. it was like they didn't even want to talk to us. >> are you satisfied with the answers you're getting? >> no. >> no. any of the members of the family your satisfied with any of the answers you're getting? mr. hyer? >> i think i can speak for the family, congressman, that there is a level of frustration for the family. i want to make it clear that our number one goal is to pursue the prosecution of all the killers of brian. that's our number one goal.

and, you know, the u.s. attorney's office in tucson and the fbi is working very hard to do that. but i also think that i can speak for the family. we've talked about this this morning. that there seems to be a separation, a distinct separation between brian's murder investigation and the atf operation gun runner fast and furious operation. there seems to be a hesitancy to connect the two. so that part is very frustrating. >> can you tell me, special agent casa, or any of the special agent, that's a great point. why do you think there's this separation. why are they making the separation between murder of the agent and the operation gun runner? >> simply put is to reduce their

liability and our atf's role in this murder. started with the straw purchase that wasn't interdicted and end up in the murder of a .. officer. by the sounds of it a very honorable law enforcement officer. >> thank you. i have no further questions. >> will the gentleman yield? >> absolutely. >> following up on that, the two serial numbers that were used and found at the scene, to your knowledge, aren't those serial numbers not the first, second or third purchases, meaning there already was a case made against a potential defendant and it could have been arrested and even turned as an informant, potentially, priority to the sale of those two weapons? >> my understanding is yes. >> thank you. we recognize the gentleman from massachusetts. >> thank you, mr. chairman. first of all, mrs. terry and mr. hyer my prayers and condolences

goes to your son, your cousin and family. special agent furcelli, in your statement you expressed extreme from us twrags the u.s. tone's office in phoenix. you said that they gave dozens of firearms, traffickers a pass. you also testified that they allowed criminals to walk free, and you indicated that they >> yes, sir. i strongly believe that. >> opposers strong allegations that want to ask about specific cases. first 2007 case of one victor who trafficked 50 caliber rifles to the mexican cartel that killed the mexican military commander david gonzalez said at the time of this case hasn't been made one of the highest priorities for

use say the assistant u.s. attorney would notse prosecute. do believe we had sufficientat evidence?ecut >> absolutely. that case was prosecuted by the arizona attorney general's office where they utilize to statutes other night utilized in gun cases and falsified form 4473 under the gun cases the u.s. attorney stated because the gun was in mexico the body of the crime was in mexico and we have no case outright decline prosecution for the reason. we had those in the network and cooperating statements from them and they also went to jail it could have been a gooder federal case that the attorney general's office declined it with a gun being in mexico meant the evidence of the crimeth was in mexico. >> do you know, any officer

region that applies thatyou standard to go forward? >> i was told it is the ninth circuit issue by have had discussions with prosecutors in los angeles who say they don't carry it to that extreme but sincet th then since he is no longer running the firearms unit has been replaced they have no amended to say if we can no physically examine the weapon than now they will charge the crimes but for two years when i was in charge of the gun went to mexico the case was dead. >> you also testified against the excalibur done a store case that they admitted about 1,000 firearms wereu trafficked to mexico and half a dozented found around the dead leader who was killed by the infantry? >> that case was brought to c

trial by the arizona attorney general's office but the den deiter was dismissed by the judge. by the case was dismissed butso t with regards to that case after declined by the united states attorney's office presented it to your for prosecutionde because they were doing international narcotics cases and they said if we could show one wire transfer or banking transactions through their districts they would have been interested in this state where the crimes took place there were readily willing to dismiss prosecution. >> both "the washington post" and pbs frontline support your version. n if there was ever a case against robe gun traffickers that said it seemingly had everything in its favor the agents had

tens of evidence a c surveillance and recorded phone calls andgl confidential informants posing as buyers but this case was denied by the assistant u.s. attorney? >> yes. of the same was a prosecutor with the "fast & furious"me u investigation. >> i am running at a time you also say the same. attorney declined other case is? >> after 2009 my duties were changed to home invasion i am not sure what happened. >> what is your assessment why this attorney repeatedly refused to take the gun case? >> sir, i don't know. it could not give a reason as to why. >> maybe wee should have him in for questioning. >> that would be great. >> i have run out of time. >> would you like an>> additional 30 seconds? without objection. >> your testimony which is

very good, it takes a lot of t courage to do what you gentlemen are doing but goes t back through 2007.d this is not a political issue because obviously we talk about career prosecutors to have been there since the bush administration going back you're not alone in your assessment.rati we heard other complaints from other witnesses. thank you for your willingness to come forward to helping the committee with the work and thank you for the extra 30 seconds. >> winnow recognize the gentlemen from utah, mr. chaffetz has been i thank you for your son's service and he is a hero. you people on a front-line doing tough things and i just wantgh to express and given the w opportunity how much we n appreciate his service and will remember him but to

those agents who were brave enough to step forward to tell it like it is, thank you it takes bravery to do the right thing and i know you have had sleepless nights and will have others moving forward but you are doing the right thing. thank you for sharing your personal perspective. mr. dodson, at what point* did you have to come forward to say something? usually these build up for something big happens. what happened you thought the enough is enough? >> in this particular case. ou get to this point* were you sure this? >> i question my supervisors almost immediately when we realized we relocated and started operationally but

then as the case agent and my supervisor and they allag told me this was a righteous and operation not until december 15, 2010 we have a significant incentive report w showing their preliminaryre investigation into the weapons purchase after reading and at and speaking with my counterparts that they were unaware of all of the events i had to go outside of atf i went to the chief counsel office, the ethics section and ultimately i was able to speak to someone tata.

>> do you think the started as a result of ae. recommendation and/or any sort of conflict? >> i can see a conflict between the office of oigha the individuals workingt the case the interaction is i didn't get i,t however those being what they are and how they are alignedr, t apparently is a conflict of interest.ea if somebody at dot authorized the this and is as well first as everybody at atf there creates the conflict with oig. >> talk about thousands of guns knowingly going south so to speak. and the normal coursete of business if you thought there was a purchase happening, how many guns push you over the threshold to stop that? >> prior to my riding in

phoenix december 2009, my entire career we have never lost a firearm. even if they got away evenfi if it was a prop engineered too not effectively fire a round even if that got away no one went home until we got it back. just one gun but in thiswe case we have thousands. c >> what is the goal? >> sir, what i was told is the goal is to ultimately target and bring down the entire car to go. >> how would they do back? >> the suspected cartels were in mexico? >> i have no idea how they plan to do that with this operation or how it was designed tdoid function. >> was a goal to knowingly and intentionally to allowgo the guns to go into mexico? >> was that the ultimate t goal? wa

was asked what they were trying to achieve? >> yes.that we were mandated let thewhat guns go. make no mistake there is not a time where we did not have the fourth thought thatther these would be recovered in the crimes the next time we became aware of the guns is when they were recovered at thwee final crime. not whatever they might have done but the last time they committed to, the person that has them that they are recovered. maybe nine or 10 that were perpetrated but that recovery date is when we will learn about it. ultimately, the main goal was to get the cartel but the mission what we were ordered to do every day is watch the same guys in theo same guns buying the same dealers we were told to make t the sale then we wouldhe sit back and wait for the trace and when they came through from places in 10 mexico

very lightly related to the cartel they were a giddy and decorated their necks thisught however there is not a, rookie police officer thatus can explain to you how we will make a case with that information. >> my time is expired. >> i give five minutes to the gentleman from virginia. >> let me to align my colleagues with profound sympathy for the terry family for your loss and the country's loss. it may sound hollow to say thank you for his service. we're in ahe terrible battle in the southwest part of our country with the border of mexico and sadly he is o another victim but his memory and his contribution are something that will long

be remembered. our thoughts and prayers go to you and him.hts thank you to our three agents for being here for your courage and your testimony. i want too respectfully an suggest however that i think we urge you to spree -- speak freely at risk of means answeringso questions freely without any other interference from a the committee and we don't censor content. it has a scope if you feel an answer to a question requires amplification you do not need to be mindful of the scope and the individual member has the individual right to ask questions and solicit answers. i want you to have that confidence urging you to speak freely so you can speak freely to answer

questions and could put forward to by this member. let me ask you special agent forcelli i read about the u.s. attorney in phoenix. and to what do you attribute the seeming reluctance to prosecute aggressively? obviously illegal behavior having a direct impact on your mission. >> i cannot say for sure. i know when to paint the entire eight united states attorney's office but two summers ago we arrested 70 people but on i arrived it was run by rachel hernandez subsequently consistently hadn issues to prosecute the cases and one example we have the informant they dismissedue outright it had truthful testimony and

accurate information and that the standards that we look for but they dismissed every case this woman had loo anything to do with. when i questioned them wiry no longer using this information and said it was no longer accurate. i was upset that my agentsnd would bring substandard product so i questioned and looked at the documents and the information was dead on. are being gauged hernandez to ask why and said the emergency witness assistant program funds and doj policies as we cannot having done that after having contact justice that was not true the only disclosure was at trial you may have to articulate the informant was paid when i approached again about this situations because dozens ofth cases hung in the balance sheet conceded he wore a lot of jewelry and

does not have jury appeal we will not use semper or her views murderers and robbers to put on the witness stand to make cases part of a lawyer's job is to prop a witness. of the war too much gold jo chain it is encumber at -- incumbent to get him ready for testimony.t it was laziness orhe arrogance. >> when you compare that him experience to yours in new york that was unusual? >> but consistent and outstanding when i got there t the u.s. attorney was fired it was bad. if there was a flare-up butit consistently bad. >> one final question their

8500 license can-do -- gun dealers and you have to under 24 atf agents and to have thees resources you need to do your job? >> amazing new u.s. me that i had contact last week when square-mile have 355 police officers with one square mile i have less than 100 agents assigned to the entire state of arizona. do we have the resources? no. we desperately need them. does that justify? no. >> that is a different issue. k ina >> thank you for your leadership on this issue and to the family of agent terry

from south carolina we offer our condolences and thank you for the service and sacrifice of your son andserv brother and french. to the atf, working with atf 16 years i find this hearing to be bitterly disappear at -- disappointing this is not reflecting of the agencyisap worked with over 16 years. this panel is not the best panel for me to express my displeasure but let me ask you. when did atf have a constructive or actual knowledge that tons were going to mexico? >> it is mike understanding 2009 when operation "fast & furious" was initiated they had knowledge those guns were being trafficked to mexico. >>inou humane interdicting firearm something simple as a traffic stop several miles

from theso purchase so you don't pull your informant that easily could have been done? >> absolutely. a lot of the information that came in and came from gun dealers who did not likeh the fact they areen portrayed in the market. the gun dealers were our friends and helped us to make a lot of the cases. we had success with cases this is an anomaly with a "fast & furious" investigation but getting mixed up an encouraging them to sell guns when they decided to stop did not help our reputation with a gun industry. if we stem the flow of firearms and dealers realize there is a problem and then turn off the fossett we could have lookedo elsewhere where we thought the stock purchase was going to but it made no sense.

>> but this investigation as half baked as it was two 1/2al to extradited folks from mexico with the statutory maximum of 10 years? >> with a guide lines? >> they don't have a criminal history they deprivation if they are prosecuted at all. >> they could then car stops or search warrants from what i understand? >> -- even if it were tied understand how it would have worked? >> let's pretend we don't get to thekeaye cartel by doing interdiction we could have entered these from being purchased.s by could we go out and stop the buyer then do a controlled

delivery we would make it up to the next level. >> you don't have to let the done is what. >> absolutely. >> howip does your u.s. attorney not do that? >> that shocks me. 70 home innovations and we proffered one. we could have stalled unsolved robberies are homicides or the untold number of crimes if we had access to those defendants. >> which case was this? the "fast & furious"? what other agencies were involved and what complaints did they lodge? >> from almost the genesis we had an agent with immigration embedded group number seven acting on thee?atio status ice was well aware.

>> atf group's seven is of the next strike force group.>> doj strike force has dea, fbi, atf and ice. >> i have less than one minute but how many different law enforcement officers andse agencies told the united states attorney's office this is a dreadful idea? how many different people and agency said this is t unprecedented and a dreadful idea and it needs to stop? how many told people ms. mcallister this is a horrible idea? to make those agencies that express that are none that i am aware of butmiss individuals, there it is about six of us all are almost every person that came through the group that a new that was going on outlmos

side of the field of vision those that came in from the outside were appalled. >> i am not a time but i would like to ask one more question. when the supervisors realize guns made it into mexico andon. acknowledging the fact we do not have much success extraditing from mexico were the mexican authorities warned something bad hasgned happened and firearms are in your country because we've turned to it? >> having conversations with our staff in mexico city our staff there they're not fully briefed and they were upset about it. this was something that was contained within the atfom group's seven specs we asked for extradition corporation from a country that does not know what we're doingatio letting guns go into theirsn't

country. >> no. the way the case is designed we don't have but charge on the individual but committed the crime. they did not lie on the form specs you have to have a conspiracy case. >> we never took the steps too ha develop that conspiracies. >> i now recognize the gentleman from massachusetts >> my condolences to the family as well and i will not ask you any questions but i don't want you to interpret that as being undermined zero for his sacrifice but i would like to talk to the three special agents. baidu suspect the mexican and the government understands their guns coming from the united states into mexico. the ambassador has stated clearlyct he thinks guns from the united states have been feeding violence being im unleashed by drug traffickers as they seem quite aware of that but

before "fast & furious" became the policy that wefore seriously question now, was and project gun runner? was up the policy 2006 and 2009? >> project gun runner was a funding source that led to? staffing groups along the southwest border withfing agents. project gun runner was preceded by something they referred to as operationuld southbound. we identified buyers to the cooperation of gun dealers are reviewing documents and then go of to do car stops and interdictions and in many of those there was no prosecution but then wesecu lawfully seized the weapons based on probable cause and would not hurt anybody. sometimes a gun dealer was suspicious they went onwo

their way with our apology but if they were criminals the guns were in our custody and they never hurt one the sole. >> was there are this weapon is still making it through? >> absolutely.l. straw purchaser is legitimate if a gun dealer is sent suspicious then that person hands it off to somebody to bring it down we don't know how to tell that untilou the gun is recovered. >> so you are familiar? tammet there was a supervisor. >> you were unhappy with that result? >> extremely. >> to the judge make the determination essentially he threw the case out after eight days of trial on the premise that there was no prooe,f e the person who got the gun was not lawfully in possession. >> t stating he was not the

supply person but thatct was he not the nature of the case and why after that happened i presented this case to the attorney general in new york if we had one banking transaction occur in thatedib district i am convinced you have a successfulha prosecution. >> is there a hesitation with federal prosecutors because they think it violates second minnesota to rights? >> no sir. not from my perspective. >> on the part of the prosecutors? >> i cannot say. > no. >> if a person goes into a p store 2 x 4 handguns, it is a federal law require them to report that? >>o, cancer.ra

>>l if i went into a store to buy five guns. >> no such requirement. >> you are familiar with the romanian a-k? rom that is a high amount of the portions of guns going to mexico.f >> absolutely. >> they comes from romania they get changed and move to mexico? >> yes, sir. if i went to the store to buy those the store owner does not have to report that? >> no. >> would then give you an indication to investigate? >> just like we monitor money to the middle east and how much sudafed buys and a pharmacy because you can make methamphetamine, it would be similar. not everybody who buys more toaa than one gun is a criminal but why are they buyingphet seven?