>> for its commercial dealings with iran. this looks into the effectiveness of the sanctions and the possibility of further punitive measures.

three house subcommittees co-hosted this three hour hearing. [inaudible conversations] >> good morning. the committee will come to order. welcome to today's hearing venezuela sanctionable activity. this is a joint hearing between the oversight's national homeland defense subcommittee, the foreign affairs committee, and the foreign affairs committee on the middle east and south asia. we are joined today by the chairman of the subcommittees, chairman connie mac of florida, and chairman steve chabot of ohio. i want to welcome ranking member tiernn yerks and i think you all for being here. today we are examining the administration's policy to confront throats abroadly the

use of sanctions. they focused tapings on the middle east. americans have invested over a trillion dollars fighting the wars in iraq and afghanistan. since 2001, 6,072 americans died in iraqi freedom and new dawn. another 44,266 injured. in afghanistan alone, these numbers rose dramatically since our current president took office in 2009. wednesday evening, president obama announced to withdraw 33,000 troops from afghanistan by the fall of 2012 leaving approximately 67,000 troops behind which is twice as many when the president obama entered office. while i support a withdrawal must be rooted in prudence, and not politics. because it's the right thing to do based on the facts and nos because it's convenient. while we combat terrorism in the middle east, we must neglect threats we face in our own hemisphere.

venezuela has grown closer to regimes hostile to the united states and its interests. venezuela is a willing partner to iran, syria, north korea, and cure baa. each of the countries have been designated as a state sponsor of terrorism by the united states government. senior officials within the venezuelan government provided materials support to hezbollah, a terrorist organization and maintained ties that the revolutionary armed forces of colombia, farc, eln, and eta. they accused the united states of "being the first state sponsor of terrorism." president also called sanctions against iran illegitimate and the vens venezuelan government will back iran under any circumstances without conditions. there's little question that venezuela's believer is sankble, but the question is how the u.s. government should respond to the

activities in the future. what options are available? should we impose sanctions that are cosmetic or impose sanctions that truly impact the ability to threaten the united states of america? before we begin that analysis, i want to expressly deep frustration with the administration. time and again this administration has frustrated the work of the subcommittee by refusing to provide witnesses it has requested. instead it insults the body to send witnesses that they believe are, quote-on-quote, representative. this congress and the oversight government reform committee has a constitutional obligation to oversee the management, efficiency, and operations of the executive branch. this tooth is without question and without exception. at the same time, this administration has a responsibility to provide information the american people seek to their representatives. this critical check and balances is designed to ensure the federal government does not

overstep boundaries and adheres to the wills of the people. the executive branch does not respond appropriately to inquiries, it breaches the trust of the american people. this is the third time. they refused to bring witnesses or claimed there was too little time to prepare. it's unacceptable that the administration requires two weeks to formulate a thought about studies with executive branch leaders on policymakers on a regular basis. it's unacceptable that the administration did not summit written testimony for the hearing until late yesterday. the administration had three weeks to prepare testimony for the hearing and have known about this topic for nearly three months. it is unacceptable that the administration was so unable to adhere to our simple 48-hour deadline by submitting testimony at the last possible minute. perhaps this committee should investigate the management and efficiency of the executive branch in this regard. i look forward to hearing from

our panel of witnesses bouts the successes and challenges they face. this subcommittee is willing to work with the subdepartments in my way possible. we appreciate you being here, and i understand the frustration of the committee not being able to do our work and giving us the documents we deserve and need to have to do our job. i would like to recognize the distinguished ranking member, the national security subcommittee, the gentleman from massachusetts, mr. tyranny. >> thank you, very much. we are familiar with the sanctions act, accountability and investment act of 2010 and we also understand that the secretary made and gasoline sales made in intervention of the law, and the question comes down as the chairman said, you know, what are we going to do and should we do? i think we have to have a clear understanding of the sanctions regime which i hope you can share with us today in full

appreciation of how much we discussed the diplomatic priorities for the region, what are owl goals, how is it we'll be able to accomplish them, and what are the current sanctions do to drive us towards the goal and what would additional sanctions do to towards moving in this direction and how should they be structured and understand the impacts before we ramp up sanctions before we move into that direction. i think it's a good time for that conversation. i think hopefully between the four of you you can give us all of that information in a form that benefits us as we move forward. with that, mr. chairman, i ask that my formal remarks are placed into the record. >> without objection, so ordered. i now recognize the chairman of the foreign affairs subcommittee mr. mack. >> thank you, mr. chairman, and i want to associate myself with your opening statement and also the statement of the ranking member, and before i begin into my formal opening statement, i just want to say that the

frustration runs deep, and i know you guys know this. we first asked for you to come in front of the subcommittee in the western hem fear and refused putting up roadblock after roadblock. i hope this serves as a warning next time we ask you to come in front of the subcommittee, you'll come. either you'll come here or there, and if we have to use our subpoena power, we'll do it. let's not go through this circus another time, okay? today in light of the u.s. state department's recent actions and sanctioning data, the purpose of this hearing is to review and better understand the role of state and treasury department in utilize sanctions ag as instrument of u.s. foreign policy. i want to talk about the sanctions under u.s. law and discuss their application in case venezuela, individuals,

businesses, and the government are able to be sanctioned. venezuela has become the wild west under hugo. this is true for the following reasons. first, there is rampant drug trafficking and corruption. second, terrorist organizations like hezbollah and the farc are linked to government officials, and third, venezuela is supporting iran and iran's desire for nuclear weapons. under hugo chavez, there's been money laundering and goods. the relationship between drug trafficking and terrorist organizations has become closely intertwined. if you'll notice up on the screen, we have the definition from the state department of what a state sponsor of terrorism is, and i'll let you read that on your own. it is widely acknowledged that terrorists groups turned to drug

trafficking as a source of revenue. if we put up the other slide, so this slide represents in 2003, the drug trafficking flight patterns in latin america, and thn if you go to the next slide, this is what it looks like in 2007. unfortunately, we can't show the slide from today because those are still protected and classified, but the difference between 2003 and this map is in 2005, hugo chavez kicked out our dea. as they provided venezuela as a safe hatch, the farc organization who operates in remote sections of colombia long received assistance, relief, and material support from vens

venezuelan authorities. this is pretty well documented. when colombia took out reyes and took the computers, interpoll was able to review the hard drives and found significant cooperation with officials from venezuela, the vens venezuelan government, and the farc. if we go back to the definition of state sponsor of terrorism, you can check that box off there's a close tie and relationship between terrorist organizations and the government in venezuela. i also want to talk a little bit more about the drug trafficking. recently, the arrest of a drug kingpin by the united states was arrested. he was sent and extradited to colombia. he said over and over again and talked about payments to government officials in

venezuela so the drug trafficking organizations know that they have a friend in hugo chavez. we know there's a relationship between the farc and hezbollah and they sanctioned members of the venezuelan government for their relationship in venezuela. lastly, i want to talk about venezuela and iran. after many discussions and not until a hearing when i was able to supply the state department with specific evidence of the shipment and sale of gasoline ring we finally sanctioned venezuela. unfortunately, those sanctions have no teeth. the things that you sanctioned, we currently aren't engaged in with venezuela in the first place so on one hand, i'm thankful we actually did put

sanctions on venezuela. it's a good start, but this is a guy who supports terrorist organizations, drug kingpins, narco-trafficking, and iran. chavez deserves to be a state sponsored label of terror, and our government, the gentlemen in front of us need to explain to us why he is not on the state sponsor of terrorism. with that, i yield back. >> thank you. the chair now recognizes the gentlemen from new jersey. >> thank you, chairman for holding this hearing. i thank you to our witness for being here today. since we've got to power in 1998, they cast revolution of the poor majority against the wealth and imposes populous

model underminding democratic institutions and stifling the freedoms of the vens venezuelan people, however the approval ratings stumbled, and in the most recent election his majority shrank below a key threshold with a freshly embedded opposition. this shows the venezuelan people want change and chavez is losing his grip. as they continue to grow in in freedom of speech and press. the government has systematically underminded freedom of expression, association, and the ability of human rights group to promote human rights completely franchising all civil engagement within the country. officials harassment and intimidation of the political opposition has grown including the persecution of elected state and government officials and

media outlettings like rcv-tv international critical of the government. they continue to cultivate relationships with countries that are state sponsors of terrorism like cuba, iran, and syria. i cannot emphasize enough how troubling the relationship between venezuelan people way la -- venezuela and iran is. collaboration between these two countries hit a new height. i discussed before the western hemisphere subcommittee by concerns about the plights, and i hope representatives from the state department can elaborate on the topic as well as acknowledge the threat this poses boast to the united states and the -- both to the united states and the free nations. connected to iron's prorifflation activities. thus far, the tragedy is forceful and pragmatic attacking

having to have a detrimental effect on progress already made and further involve his populous agenda. we must continue to make smart decisions in regards to venezuela to encourage citizens to support democratic institutions and principles. recently chavez seemed to have peaked, but we have to remain vigilant has heel be like-minded with allies and neighbors countries that seek to undermind moderate governments. he continues to impose every u.s. policy initiative in the region including free trade, counterdrugs, and counterterrorism cooperation and the regional security initiatives. venezuela continues to extend a lifeline to trafficking organizations by providing significant support and safe hatches along the border and it remains one of the most

preferred routes for cocaine in south america. their organizations in venezuela helping to ensure regional security. venezuela proved they cannot be trusted and the united states should take the necessary measures to stifle the powers and ensure regional security, but we must do so tactfully as not to further empower chavez. the national security threat posed are complex and must implement the appropriate measures to protect the people of veeps way la and promote u.s. interests. i would like to thank the witnesses and i look forward to the testimony. thank you, chairman. >> thank you. we'll recognize the chairman on the foreign affairs of the middle east. the gentleman from ohio. >> thank you, mr. chairman, and i thank my two fellow chairmen for putting this together.

i know we've been trying to hold this hearing for some time and met with considerable resistance from the administration, and i commend my colleague for his persistence. as chairman of the middle east and south asia subcommittee, i and the other folks on the committee, frequently confront the threats posed by iran and global terrorist networks more globally, especially, of course, in the middle east. the possibility, however, of an iranian-venezuelan alliance is particularly concerning. when not oppressing its own people, the regime promotes a great deal of its energy to threatening american national security as well as the security of our allies in the region. the threat posed by iran takes on a new and more ominous geostrategic significance coupled with the iranian base

operations in our own hemisphere. this prospect harkens back to the day of the cold war when all of the sudden we were no longer separated from our enemies by oceans, but faced threats in our own backyard. although the nature of the threat may have changed, such a situation is just as unacceptable today as it was decades ago. i hope the witnesses today can shed light on the nature of this threat. more importantly, however, i hope they can outline a clear policy to address it. one of the most fundamental roles of government is to provide for the security of its citizens. we are having enough trouble combating iranian meddling and dismantling terrorist safe havens on the other side of the globe. the last thing we need is threats from bad actors even closer to the american homeland. again, i want to thank my fellow chairman and ranking members for

holing this hearing today, and i yield back my time. >> i now recognize the gentleman from virginia. mr. conley. >> thank you, mr. chairman, and i thank the panelists for being here today. i listened to my friend with great interest from florida. i serve on both the oversite committee and foreign affairs committee, and i have not been struck with the reluctance of the administration of a qee ens to hear this, but we are glad you're here. not the expense of its neighbors. that's the point we reached with veeps way la's relationship with iran. as a result, the obama administration, for example, sanctioned venezuela state-owned oil company, pvsa, for business

with iran. several illegal activities in lat tan america continued to iran. they took in the activities in the border of argentina and pair . the group is also suspected in two bombings and in buenos aires, and the 1992 bombing, and the 1994 bombing. each warrant was for iranian government officials. though iran and veeps way la have been linged since 1960s, the two countries recently strengthened that relationship. it's alarming because of the diplomatic relationships. one example is the absence of customs enforcement, for example. on weekly flights to tehran.

it's unclear who or want is transported, but the flights do carry weapons. these developments are troubling enough. they are further complicated by the o dasty in the nuclear arena specifically the missile tests and facilities. the nuclear issues pressing and does not exist in a vacuum. in 2009, venezuelan president, chavez, expressed the development and mixed report signaling a possible iranian assistance to venezuelan for deposits. the relationship is more troubling because venezuela serves as a conduit for iran playing an important part in cultivating a relationship between iran and latin american countries. venezuela's involvement with iran is a cost of concern and illegal activities in both hemispheres directly linked to

the iranian government, and i welcome today's hearing to explore that further and to look at u.s. diplomatic options with regard to this troubling and growing relationship. with that, i yield back. thank you, mr. chairman. >> i thank you. we'll recognize the gentlewoman from ohio; ms. smith. >> thank you issue mr. chairman, for holing this hearing. it shouldn't be of surprise to anyone there's a special link between venezuela and iran, and that perhaps it should be no surprise that hugo chavez is looking to strengthen ties with iran. if you look at what just occurred in the last seven years, i think the documents -- the facts speak for themselves. in 2006, venezuela integrated itself with iran by alining with cuba and syria as the only country to vote against the u.n. atomic agency solution reporting

for the failures to comply with sanctions. in april of 2008, they signed a pact of mutual military support. in april 2009, the two countries inked an agreement to create a development bank whereby each country invests $100 million for bilateral economic development projects. in october 2010, the two countryings signed 11 mutual cooperative agreements on issues trade, energy, shipping, finance, and public housing. according to an article published in the newspaper, in november of 2010, one of the agreements signed between iran and venezuela in october of 2010 would establish a military base on venezuelan soil to be jointly operated by both countries on which medium range missiles would be placed. on may 1th, they reported that

chavez met with the iranian guards of the air force to discuss the final details of the construction of the missile base which now is being built only 75 miles from the veeps way lain-clommian border. it is believed they are pursuing the exploration of uranium in venezuela, an ingredient needed for nuclear weapons. last year, ria, the russian international news agency, roberted that russia which signed a deal with iran in 2007 to sell its five battalions of sophisticated air defense systems would aggravate the agreement due to the new sanctions now posed against iran. it is believed that russia may foul the air defense system to veeps way la, how convenient, who in turn could sell them to iran. just recently, the united states

imposed captions on sate-owned oil company in veeps way la for assisting iran in the production of gasoline and petroleum production. they were sanctioned for selling $50 million worth of products to iran between march 2010 and 2011 in violation of the sanctions act. the sanctions we've imposed on ptbs say prohibit the company from competing for u.s. government procurement contracts from securing finance from export bank of the united states and from obtaining u.s. import licenses. mr. chairman, i applaud the department of state for its decision to impose sanctions, unfortunately, it is not enough. we need to do more. every venezuelan company doing business with iran should be investigated and determination made as to whether it is in violation of the 1996 sanctions agent.

in those accidents, sanctions should be imposed immediately. we need to show chavez we're serious and there's punishments to pay for assisting to pay for accommodating iran. thank you. >> i recognize the gentleman from america -- >> i thank you, and thank you for calling this joint committee hearing this morning. i have listed in interest in terms of this issue with providing sanctions to those countries by our laws as well as international laws. i think we've got to the point that we're sanctionitis. i have my own serious questions about the consistency of how we apply the foreign policies against countries. i'm not suggesting that we don't put sanctions on venezuela, but there seems to be a whole bunch of contradictions here.

we put sanctions, and yet, venezuela is one of the biggest suppliers of oil coming to the country, and i'm curious if the witnesses have more information on this, citgo, one the biggest distributers of owl in the country, and it seems to me every time we put sanctions, but as long as there's holes in between allowing the countries to do -- to obtain whatever their needs are, then the sanctions become somewhat useless, but i'm very, very curious and wanted to hear from our witnesses this morning in terms of how our whole fabric of applying sanctions have really been effective or just been another sanction on another thing, classic cop tray diction, as you know, mr. chairman, as i indicated, when something goes wrong, we put sanctions against thailand and fiji, and yet we waive sanctions with a mill

taser cue took over pakistan when he made promises we were to have a democracy in that country, and that never happened. i look forward to hearing from the witnesses in terms of where exactly venezuela comes in as far as the whole hosts of sanctions put against the country. i will say interestingly enough, the close ties of venezuela and iran has because of the nuclear issue, i believe what happened in japan recently has caused mr. chavez to have second thoughts of establishing a nuclear relationship with iran, but i look forward to hearing from the witnesses, and thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you, do any other members wish to make an opening statement? >> the hon national daniel benjamin, thomas delare, the districter of sanctions policy at the state department.

mr. kevin whitaker is at the state department, and mr. adam szubin is the director of office of foreign assets control at the treasury department. pursuant to committee rules, all witnesses are sworn in before they testify. .. do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you're about give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? let the record reflect that all witnesses answered in the affirmative. thank you. you may be seated. in order to allow time for discussion, please, limit your testimony to five minutes. your entire written statement will be made as part of the record. we'll now go ahead and recognize mr. benjamin. >> thank you very much, sir. distinguished members of the

committees, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today to dis to appear before you surypleased to be here with my todayment colleagues tom delare and kevin whitaker. mr. chairman, let me be clear from the outset. with respect to global efforts to counterterrorism, developments in venezuela over the last decade have been deeply troubling. instead of meeting his international obligations, hugo chavez has chosen to develop close relationships with iran and syria. senior members of his government are directly implicated in providing support to u.s.-designatessed foreign terrorist organizations, particularly the farc and eln. the administration has significant concerns about connections between members of the venezuelan government and eta as well. all of these issues have been reported on this press. and as we have report inside the past, hezbollah has a presence in venezuela, and the department

of treasury has done much to reveal these connections. i do, however, want to emphasize that the information available to us indicates that hezbollah activity in venezuela is limited to fund raising. we remain alert to indicationings of other activities, particularly operational activity, but to date there's no information to support any such connection. venezuela must fulfill its obligations under 1373 and 1540 which forms part of the legal basis of international counterterrorism efforts. these resolutions adopted under chapter 7 of the u.n. charter require all states, including venezuela, to take a series of measures to combat terrorism and prevent weapons of mass destructions and their means of delivery from getting into the hands of terrorists. it is our view that venezuela has not done enough in this regard. the obama administration's pursuing of policy to press venezuela la to change its behavior. we are ratcheting up the pressure in a way that our

analysis suggests will be most effective. we are increasing the cost on the chavez government for its actions including by publicly exposing our conclusions about that government's activities. we are carefully avoiding falling into the trap of providing chavez with an opening to increase his demagoguery and exploit nationalist sentiments by falsely attempting to turn this into a bilateral issue with the united states rather than what it is; venezuela's failure to live up to its international obligations with respect to counterterrorism. we believe this approach combined with regional efforts to moderate venezuela's behavior is slowly but surely bringing positive change. imaginative and effective colombian diplomacy has taken advantage of this environment. since president santos took office a year ago, we've seen a marginal but significant improvement by venezuela. venezuela has arrested and deported to colombia members of the farc headquarters section in the farc's key european fundraiser.

most recently venezuela arrested a member of the farc, general conrado based on a colombian arrest warrant. they have developed a channel of communication to discuss border security. chavez has also publicly moved away from the farc by calling for that organization to join a political reconciliation process and by disavowing his unauthorized any discussions between venezuelan government officials and the farc about establishing bases in venezuela. our actions have been targeted, well justified and well understood in venezuela. for the last five years, pursuant to section 40a of the arms export and control act, venezuela has been listed as not fully cooperating with the united states efforts country, antiterrorism efforts country. because of its inadequate response to our counterterrorism efforts, licensing for export to venezuela, articles or services.

this sanction is a useful tool for signaling that we are not satisfied with venezuela's counterterrorism cooperation, and it is used when a state may not meet the high threshold for designation as a state sponsor of terrorism. we have also 'em employed an array of sanctions against the government. my colleagues from the department of treasury will explain the work we have done to target elements of the venezuelan government via the drug kingpin act. via executive order 214 and the divestment act of 2010. much more work remains to be done, and we will continue to closely monitor venezuela's actions. as you know, secretaries of state have used the state sponsor of terrorism action sparingly since its creation in 1979. in fact, it has been more than 18 years since this power has been invehicled, but this does not -- invokes, but this does not mean we are unwilling to use this authority. all options are on the table if

circumstances warrant. we look forward to working with congress and with our partners in the region to further encourage venezuela to behave as a responsible international actor. thank you very much. >> thank you. it's my understanding that given that there are three witnesses from the state department, that there was going to be just one single statement, or are we doing individual statements as well? did i have that right? >> no. my colleagues also have brief statements. >> oh, yes. whether delare. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i appreciate the opportunity to appear here today with my colleagues. the bureau of economic and business affairs at the state department, we have responsibility for the implementation of sanctions targeting iran's energy sector. naturally, we also have very serious concerns about venezuela's relationship with iran and syria. venezuela is iran's closest political ally in the western hemisphere, as we have heard

morning. president chavez continues to bond with iran as a strategic ally. the highly-publicized bond has led to declarations about broad economic, military and political cooperation although the ec tent of actual -- extent of actual cooperation is not clear. under the comprehensive iran sanctions and divestment act, the agency is primarily responsible for energy, shipping, transportation sectors and telecommunications technology, non-proliferation and human rights issues. the department of treasury has primary responsibility for implementing the financial sanctions contained in the bill. i know my colleague, adam szubin, will discuss treasury's role in detail. let me just add that we -- not only at state do we work extensively and collaboratively with treasury, we do the same with many other agencies in the government.

on may 24th the secretary of state imposed sanctions on venezuela along with six other companies for their activities in support of iran's energy sector. we sanctioned the company because on at least two occasions the company provided cargoeses of an additive used in gasoline. these shipments were valued at over $50 million, well above sanction bl thresholds established in issa. under the iran sanctions act or isa, the secretary has the authority to sanction on a case by case basis, something that many of you have alluded to this morning. it can range from prohibitions on certain types of u.s. government assistance to a complete blocking of all property transactions subject to u.s. jurisdiction. the secretary chose three sanctions that limit the company's activities in the united states but do not impact

their subsidiaries or the export of crude oil from venezuela. it's important to note that this calibrated approach was chosen because it is our goal to persuade the company to make the right choice and stop shipments of refined petroleum to iran. if company does not stop and we have seen no evidence of any further actions since the imposition of these sanctions, we have made it very clear in our conversations with them that we reserve the right to impose additional and more severe sanctions. in the case of this company, we do not know what the ultimate result of these important actions will be. we are confident, however, that we have their attention based on comments and venezuelan government officials. the department of state has a very good record of convincing companies to stop supporting iran's energy sector. last fall we secured the formal withdrawal from iran of five

large multi-national energy companies; royal dutch shell, impeck, staff oil and total. they've all removed themselves from projects in the iran. these firms have since been joined by scores of other companies both in the energy sector and in other sectors who have simply recognized that the risks of doing business with iran are just the too high. we will continue our dialogue with venezuela about this subject, and we will continue a very vigorous outreach process that we've engaged in to talk to the business community worldwide about the risks of doing business with iran. i should note that also on may 24th -- may 23rd, pardon, the state department imposed sanctions pursuant to the iran, north korea and syria non-proliferation act. this was against the mill stair industries -- military industries company providing

companies that provide or transfer from war technology controlled by one of the four multilateral regimes, that is the australian group, the missile technology control regime, the nuclear suppliers group and the vasanar convention. these agreements regulate the export of weapons of mass destruction and cruise and ballistic missile technology. let me conclude by stressing that we pay constant attention to the activities of venezuela with regard to iran. we work with all the relevant agencies in the u.s. government to utilize the tools that the congress has given us, and we will, i can assure you, react to concrete possibles of -- examples of sanction bl behavior. thank you very much. >> thank you. i want to go back to this point, though, for a moment here. the three representatives from the state department issued one statement. we asked that, congress asked that you submit these statements 48 hours in advance. you couldn't do that.

and now you each have three statements. we're going to hear from you, we want the hear from you, that's why you're here. why couldn't you submit your statements in accordance with our rules? what was the hindrance? >> mr. chairman, i apologize for the lateness of the submission. as you can you can see from those who are present here, this is an issue that takes very intricate and complex coordination both within the department and across agencies. there was a great deal of work that needed to be done in preparation for this hearing. we wanted to have the best information available. we will certainly do our best to make sure that we meet your deadlines in the future. >> i would appreciate that. it is unacceptable to do this. you, obviously, prepared some opening remarks, yet you failed to submit them to this body, and we find that unacceptable. mr. whitaker, you're recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, chairman, ranking members, distinguished members, thank you for the opportunity to appear here today. let me make two points.

first, the department shares your concerns about venezuela's relations with iran, its support of the farc, its failure to cooperate on counterterrorism. we have taken a series of steps over time using tools provided by congress to address these female yours. we are constantly reviewing all the information to determine if substantial, targeted and iterative steps we have taken are appropriate and sufficient in light of the information available to us. taken collectively, these steps demonstrate our commitment to act responsively and consistently with legislation and policy to confront specific activities by venezuela and venezuelan persons. second, let me draw your anticipation to colombia's -- attention to colombia's rah port with venezuela. it has resulted in unusually

productive and effective counterterrorism cooperation. bilateral cooperation on terrorism and security matters is increasing and being systematized yielding notable results. while we still have serious concerns about venezuela's overall cooperation on counterterrorism matters, these are steps in the right direction. and demonstrate that counterterrorism efforts work beth when nations collaborate. what we seek from venezuela is its collaboration in confronting narcotics trafficking and terrorism. in the absence of such cooperation and when possessing evidence that venezuela or venezuelan entities are not meeting their international obligations or failing to comply with applicable u.s. laws, we have demonstrated our willingness to act. the department has strongly urged venezuela's leaders to pursue a path of cooperation and responsibility rather than further isolation, and we'll continue to do so. we continue to monitor venezuela

as well as other countries for activities that indicate a pattern of support for acts of international terrorism. no option is ever off the table, and the department will continue to assess what additional actions may be warranted in the future. i'm happy to be here, and i look forward to your questions. >> thank you. i will now recognize mr. szubin for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. chairman chaffetz, chairman mack, chairman chabot, ranking member tierney, congressman sears and distinguished members, thank you very much for the opportunity to appear before you to discuss venezuela's activities. i'm pleased to be testifying alongside my colleagues from the state department of. we at treasury have been intently focused on venezuela over the past few years. we have uncovered and acted against a range of actors operating out of venezuela including terrorists and those who have facilitated iran's pursuit of weapons of mass destruction. our concern regarding the

activities of terrorist groups in venezuela is lock standing -- long standing, particularly links to the iranian-sponsored hezbollah. as but one example, i would draw the committee's attention to an action we took in 2008 targeting a hezbollah facilitator and venezuelan diplomat. he was an diplomat who served as the charge of afares in da maas cat, syria, and he utilized his powers to provide financial support to hezbollah. among his activities were providing hezbollah doe donors with specific information on how to route their contributions such that they would go directly to hezbollah. he met with senior officials in lebanon to discuss operational issues and that be sill tate -- facilitated the travel of hezbollah members. at the same time we took action, we also exposed and sanctioned another hezbollah supporter and two travel agencies that he operated out of caracas.

of course, venezuela has also been deepening its diplomatic ties with iran as the committee members have noted. the growing ties between venezuela and iran are very worrying, especially as they stand in such stark contrast to the global trend in which the world is trying to isolate iran because of its pursuit of nuclear weapon and other destabilizing activities. in the 2008 the iranian government established the international development bank of caracas in venezuela. shortly after its opening, we moved to sanction this bank under our counterproliferation authorities due to the bank's relationship with the export development bank of iran. we will act firmly and quickly to deny a purchase to any attempted successor. we have also named under our sanctions authorities the iranian oil company and targeted its operations in venezuela in particular. finally, we have been extremely active in the field of combating

narcotics trafficking and have sanctioned thousands of entities across latin america, including venezuela. among those, high-level foreign officials who are involved with the farc including the head of venezuela's military intelligence agency and their former interior minister. the threats posed by iran terrorism and narcotics trafficking are complex, and we work closely with our interagency colleagues to bring all of our tools to bear against these threats, and our work can and must continue. i look forward to your questions. thank you. >> thank you. we appreciate that. we'll now, i'm now going to recognize the chairman of the foreign affairs subcommittee on the western hemisphere, mr. mack from florida, for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. and i want to thank all of you for your testimony here today, and i don't think we need to continue to harp on this, but, you know, we look forward to more open dialogue and cooperation from be all of you.

um, so it sounds to me that we're in agreement that chavez is sponsoring terror i feel. terrorism, whether through narco trafficking, through his cooperation with iran, through hezbollah, support of hezbollah and the farc and other terrorist organizations. so it sounds to me that there's agreement. i think where the problem lies is what do we do about it. so i first want to make point. make this point, and i'll say it again. we're happy that there were sanctions placed on cha rez. chavez. what we're not happy about is that the three sanctions that were placed on pate vase saw, the denial of import/export bank loans, credits, denial of licenses for the u.s. export of

military and militarily useful technology and prohibits on u.s. government's procurement from entities, these are things that are already not happening. so we can also agree that these are toothless, is that right? >> chairman mack, i would respectfully disagree with that. final evaluation. i wouldn't say they're toothless because what we have done is warned the international business community that there is a danger of dealing with pate that vase saw. >> okay, just so i -- okay. so the designation of being sanctioned is important, but the actual sanctions that took place don't have any teeth? because these are things that we're currently not doing with venezuela. >> chairman, the fact is congress has given us a calibrated set of tools to use in instances like this. basically, implying that we have to make a very complicated

calculation as to u.s. interests in each one of these incidences. now, we had to judge whether the sanctions would induce the company to stop it behavior -- >> i understand that. i'm sorry. i just -- but, so the fact that you made the sanctions is important here. what you sanctioned isn't important because these things are currently not being done with venezuela in the first place. and that's my take, and i think that's most everybody else's take. we have other tools that are available -- >> we do. >> -- restriction of imports, um, also prohibiting the sanctioned entity from acquiring, holding and be trading any u.s.-based property, so there are other sanctions that we can use. but i want to get back, first of all, let me ask you this. who owns pay that vase saw? >> 100% owned by the venezuelan government, sir. >> so there's no mistake that this is, the actions of the

company isn't by some company, it's by the government of venezuela? >> i think we can assume there's an intimate relationship there. >> i would assume that chavez has full control over the company. >> sir, we also make a calculation as to u.s. interests, and if 10% of u.s. oil imports are coming from venezuela with three u.s. refineries dependent on citgo, 6,000 gas stations, 3,000 other employees, we have to weigh those factors as well. >> so i would suggest then -- sir, then i would suggest that the state department sign off on the keystone xl pipeline which will then be able to take over for any oil that we're getting from venezuela. it seems to me that if we're, if you or the state department or if you're going to continue to use, we have a strategic interest in their oil, and we have the ability to get oil from somewhere else, we ought to get it somewhere else, wouldn't you agree? >> >> i would say generally that's a fair point of view. >> so we can expect the state

department to sign off on the keystone xl pipeline? >> i can only promise to take your views back, sir. >> i think they know my views. [laughter] so, again, the definition countries determined by the secretary of state to have repeatedly provided support for acts of international terrorism. that is the state department's definition of a state sponsor of terror, correct? >> that is the basis for the designation, yes. >> but that is the definition, that's what's posted on the web site, that is what the state department -- so how is, how can you not designate chavez as a state sponsor of terror when we know the narco trafficking, the support of hezbollah, even if it's just fund raising? by the way, i thought that was kind of interesting. i don't remember who said it, only in be fund raising. but fund raising is the mechanism that allows hezbollah to work. so we know drugs, terrorist organizations, support of iran,

all three of these things would be a determined by the secretary of state to repeatedly provide support for terrorist organizations. >> well, the statute, sir, allows the secretary discretion to decide when repeatedly is sufficient enough to merit the imposition of this, of this designation. and as i said in my oral statement, sir, our approach is very much predicated on effectiveness and what it is that's going to get venezuela to stop behavior that we believe is unacceptable. that is why we have, that is why we have instituted a calibrated, iterative process in which we are escalating pressure as appropriate. without having follow on or side effects that we believe harm our own national security and harm the interests of those who we cooperate with very closely including to contain venezuela's behavior. >> thank you. the gentleman's time has expired. given the number of members on

this panel, i've asked members to keep within the five minutes, but we will allow our witnesses to answer past that moment. we'll now recognize the ranking member of the committee, mr. tierney. >> thank you. obviously, when you talk about the sanctions, congress passed a bill that allowed the secretary some discretion into how she applied those sanctions. am i right, ambassador? is. >> absolutely correct. >> all right. so the task for the secretary at that point in time is to calibrate, as you say, or to make a determination as to which sanctioning to implement -- sanctions to implement at any given time and try to get the response she wants from that while at the same time taking other considerations of what might happen to impact our allies and our own interests, is that right? >> correct. >> so i don't want to get into negotiating here in public with venezuela or anything. can i ask you to give us a broad range of all of the competing interests that we have there. when the balancing is going on,

give us a range of what types of things we're balancing, cooperation with colombia in terms of drugs and borders, you know, other things like that. just give us some idea of all the different interests. >> okay. well, i will defer in a moment to my colleagues from the regional bureau, from western hemispheric affairs. but certainly thediplomacy with colombia is important. colombia would be very, very sharply affected by such a designation. since colombia is at this time making significant progress in dealing with venezuela and in curtailing those activities that we find objectionable, it would seem to be counterproductive to do that at this time. additionally, there are such second and third order effects as catching the business dealings of lots of closely-allied cups up in the state sponsorship net, if you will, that if other countries that were doing business with venezuela suddenly found

themselves to be in danger of being sanctioned, that would be problematic. i believe mr. delare has spoken to the issue of our energy concerns in this regard, so there's a whole array of different interests that need to be taken into effect, and i think mr. whitaker may have more to add on that. >> if i could just add on with a couple of points here. u.s. policy in venezuela as a number of folks want u.s. national security and counternarcotics and counterterrorism, all of those are very important to us. we would need to weigh, it seems to me, the effect of sanctions we take on issues like that. the ambassador mentioned the effect it would have of a sanction against venezuela when venezuela views colombia as a close ally of the united states, how would venezuela then react with respect to its dip diplomac efforts in colombia? that's unknown to me, but it's out there.

again, that might be an avenue or a place where the venezuelan government would seek to identify that group and take some action in response to an action that we took. finally, we have many u.s. companies in venezuela, and it's our goal as the department of state to understand their interests, defend their interests. and we would need to take into account as well any impact in that regard with respect to those companies that continue to do business in venezuela. >> thank you. if secretary's just decided to throw the book at venezuela and just take the more extreme sanctions on that, what would the anticipated, current anticipated response of the venezuelan government be? >> it's hard to say. i've worked on venezuela since 2005, and hugo chavez can be unpredictable. but one of the threats of his policy since taking office in 1999 is consistently to try to turn whatever problem or issue that arises into one of him

versus the united states. whether that's accurate or not. i think that he would do this, he would seek to turn this into a matter of a u.s. attack on his government and seek to use it for internal political purposes. how that would manifest itself whether in diplomatic policy or with respect to democratic opposition in venezuela or with respect to u.s. companies is difficult to predict. .. things are moving the we want them to? we have to do something you're just not sure yet? >> i would say that its early to issue the report card given the recent activities, the recent sanctions that have been imposed

we are i would say somewhat optimistic because of the actions that chavez has taken in terms of extraditing the tat aperatives from venezuela toh columbia, encouraged by his colombian demands and encouraget there had been further shipments of the kinds of petroleum additives, gasoline additive that the kind that were recently sanctioned. at the moment we are cautiously up domestic. >> thank you. now recognize the gentleman from ohio, mr. chaffetz. scenic thank you, mr. chairman. obviously, our capacity as middle east and south asia where we devote most of our energy and time.

having to be in the region there recently in saudi arabia is obviously very concerned at this time about iran exploiting the so-called arab sprig or whatever terminology one prefers that they see themselves as being encircled, whether it's yemen, egypt, it has close relations with iran, bahrain and we saw the saudi reaction they are. there's certainly a man is flexing its muscle and they really do welcome and command my fellow chairs were talking publicly about this venezuelan connection with iran because it's a great concern. it shows the iranian threat is really global in nature. and obviously can't saudi arabia, a lot of oil there. the most resources in the world

at this time, i ran this tech in her third depending on that she's deep. the point i take to get to at this point is oreo is a commodity on the world markets and what we pay in the united states is a set date by that supply. and so, our interest here whereas we do import iranian oil and it affects the pricier, e-mail, depending how much we get from here and elsewhere, many of us believe we made a terrible mistake becoming so dependent upon foreign oil in many ways and some of that is by restricting access to read resources, whether it's in water, the arctic continental shelf and a whole range of other things here. relative to venezuela inhabited

by this are many general, are we putting ourselves in a much more vulnerable position but essentially we are reliant upon the venezuelan oil. the money goes down there and they are clearly one of the bad art is in this hemisphere right now and what they are doing this against our best interests. so that's continuing to be so dependent upon foreign sources of energy, our policies in the area have been counterproductive here. would you agree with that, mr. delare? i'll ask you if you'd like to take a -- >> well, there's little to argue with in your statement date because it is the fact that our sanctions policies are oil producers and we are dependent on the external source of energy. i think we all wish to retrieve that we had many alternate sources of energy to depend on, but at this historical point in

time we have to move carefully as to how we apply some of the tools provided to us and we can maintain the flow of energy to our market while still demonstrating a strong political message to certain types of behaviors are and accept the bull. >> and they think it is clear that venezuela and chavez in particular has been using american money in particular either to bribe or influence other nations in this hemisphere and the actions that they were encouraging them to take are often times diametrically opposed to what the united states best interest is. i think we basically have in venezuela now what we had in cuba over the last number of decades. the difference being cuba didn't really have a resource. they were dependent upon the soviet union -- former soviet

union. venezuela has oil and is perhaps even more dangerous than cuba was over these last decades. i would at this time -- i didn't give him a lot of time. i might yield to the gentleman for any time i may have remaining. >> thank you. and to that point, i believe that we are sending basically $117 million a day to venezuela through paid face. so we are funding someone who we've sanctioned. we are funding the fact to the deepest support terrorist organizations that is sending. once again, i think we covered the state department, needs to look at alternative ways instead of continuing to buy oil from chavez, we need to find alternative ways to get that oil. >> the gentleman's time has expired. i'd like to let members know, we

have one vote on the floor. if the intention of the chair to recognize mr. delare and then to recognize that the hearing. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i want to get back to the question every and then the flight in the end this cme activity in venezuela. i had dinner with a group of people and they tell me that the amount of people in the iranian embassy in venezuela is one of the largest in the world. i thought to other people. they tell me that's not true. in your best estimation, what is the embassy in venezuela from iran, the personnel. how many people today have their? how active are they? how many flights a week they have? does it conform -- i don't want

to conform, but the amount you have in venezuela, can anybody respond to that? >> i can try, congressman. there was some months ago a direct flight initiated between tehran, damascus and caracas. our information is that as at september 2010, flight in tehran had been shot and now it is caracas, to madrid in return. there are pointing out instead that the originals of venezuela are not subject to immigration controls. we've heard the stories, too. we don't have a way of verifying that. since 2006 it attempted to contact the statutory that required an inspection of the airports in venezuela because they are hitting .4 flights in the united states. because venezuela refused to

permit the safety inspections, security inspections, in september 2008, dhs issued a public notice on the point informing passengers of our inability to do the inspections. in an example of, you know, i'm not going to call it progress, but there's a change in tsa was able to make a visit to venezuela last week. they spoke to venezuelan security officials. you know, this is not the end of the process. for the first time since 2006 we had a meeting on this topic. in terms of the size of the arabian embassy in venezuela, according to the tip will not come at their many embassies in venezuela, and clicking around that are far larger than that. i didn't consider it to be particularly at his embassy in terms of diplomatic activities, showing the public diplomacy, et cetera appeared we can't see how

active they were within the venezuela government. there is that same information on that and if appropriate -- >> how many flights do you have a week now? >> at the weekly fight and it doesn't go to tehran. >> all these rumors have two or three fight to be coming in and out of come you can't confirm that? >> was a weekly flight. there is no more. >> currently chavez is in cuba. you have any information on that? be not what we now is that we can talk about it in early may he adequately defined as an indie operation. in june he cannot publicly and said he had a public abscessed strain. he has not appeared for some weeks now.

>> he has not treated in his twitter account for some weeks. >> his sons jocular, but in fact he's the very act it tweeter and it's interesting he is, fine. >> i don't know if that's a good atf. >> are we hope in the up decision? and of the opposition is growing in venezuela. are we assisting the process and venezuelan? >> thank you for the question. since 2002 dict is provided to court to encourage development to settle society and democratic practices. much of what was done in recent years has focused on getting out the vote, protect the vote in these kinds of activities to ensure the maximum number of people can vote in free and fair

conditions. it is important to know we do this in an ecumenical way. it's not designed to approach any particular end, but support democracy. >> thank you very much. thank you, mr. chairman. >> we have roughly eight and a half minutes in the folk good who will stand in recess until approximately 10:35 and then will resume the remainder of the hearing. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] the [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]

for five minutes, and we will go from there. according to the record of the united states government provides approximately $5 million to venezuela annually for democracy related assistance. what is happening with thathow o money? why do we get it and how we monitor where it goes? >> thank you for the question, sherman. the purpose of our democracy ene funding is to encourage the cilc development of civil society. in order to ensure thatust venezuelan democracy be asincluv robust and include inclusive as possible. we use a number of tactics overtime this program has been in place since 2002 and has mila it haged about $5 million a year. and wa's gone up and it's gone down. initially, as the democracyge

program was intended to wake o encourfage reconciliation in th2 wake of the 2002 coup. over time, the government, government affiliated, chavez ha affiliated actors have refused to participate in programs intee ecumenical in nature and demonstrate that it's open to all a, politically balanced and in support of the process rather than any particular -- >> the details of what's going on in that program and how that money is spent, is that something you can provide to the committee in, say, 30 days? would that be fair? >> absolutely. more than enough time. >> thank you. i'd like to yield now to the gentleman from florida, representative mack, for the remainder of my time. >> thank you, mr. chairman. and ask just for the committee's knowledge, by recommendation to the full committee is that that budget be zeroed out moving forward. i want to go back to kind of the sentiment that chavez will use

this kind of struggle between the united states for his own benefit. and i've been pretty consistent and on the other side of this feeling. so what we have in hugo chavez is a classic bully. so he tries to get people to do things based upon fear of what he might do. and i think this is an important point that we instead of looking at what it is that we're fearful that chavez might do, we ought to look at what is the right thing to do for national security, what's the right thing to do for the people of this country, and what's the right thing to do for our friends in latin america and around the world. not because of threats from a bully. so i hope that, yeah, i'd love to hear if you want to make comment on that, but let me just add one other piece to that. you also talked about that we have some great or beginnings of

some strides where there's been some extraditions from venezuela to colombia of some drug kingpins. but the reality is that didn't, that's not due to the actions of the united states. that's due to the actions of the president of colombia, santos. i'll remind you about the mackled case where we fell asleep at the switch, he was arrested on our warrant. when they arrested him, the colombians asked if we wanted him, and we said we're not interested, and then they sent him to venezuela. and that's why the extraditions are happening, not because of some great policy position or foreign policy by the u.s. government, if you care to react to those two statements, i'd love to hear it. >> thank you, mr. chairman. on the first point, i think that the reaction or potential reaction of chavez with respect to the united states and trying

to demonize the united states with respect to colombia, the democratic composition in venezuela are all matters that one can make analysis about. they are factors. i wouldn't say that any one is necessarily the determining factor. what we're looking for is results. in the case of the sakss, from -- sanctions, for example, there's a specific result we want. on the extraditions, actually, we're getting -- and i don't want to overplay this because there's much more that venezuela could do, but just in the last since july 2010 we've gotten on the order of ten senior narcos who were deported directly to the united states, removed from venezuela directly to the united states -- >> let me, because my time is, and -- i'm going to go through, because i just want to hammer this point home that hugo chavez, okay, i'm going to do this anyways.

hugo chavez -- well, my time is running out. so thank you and i'll, apparently, we'll have another opportunity to speak with you again. thank you. >> thank you. now recognize the gentleman from america samoa. >> thank you, mr. chairman. and i do thank our witnesses for their testimony this morning. i just want to follow up on a couple of issues or questions that were raised, at least i would like to raise at this point. we, we duly recognize, gentlemen, that you're just simply following the statute, at least what we did in the congress, passed laws into statute, you're just trying to enforce these sanctions, laws whether it be for economic reasons or whatever. i noticed earlier that chairman chabot had asked the question about venezuela's oil supply, and i'm just curious for the record what is the total dollar value of oil that we import from

venezuela? say just last year or say over the period of the last five years. >> congressman, we -- the figure i used earlier in my testimony was -- or maybe i didn't -- was 900,000 to one million barrels per day. i would have to get back to you with a formal response and cost it out for you. >> yeah. i would think it's important. we need to know. i mean, my next question for the record, exactly how many sanctions do we have against venezuela at this point in time? you know, i know there's sanctions against individuals, sanctions against companies, sanctions against officials of the government, sanctions for terrorism, sanctions on nuclear transfer, on non-proliferation, what is the total number of sanks that we currently -- sanctions that we currently have against venezuela? >> um, well, we can go through

them. there's not fully cooperating on terrorism matters which was imposed in may 2006. every year since 2005 they've been found to have common availably failed in their counternarcotics -- >> as i listed to your statements, do i say maybe a count of nine or ten different sanctions that we've put against venezuela? small sanctions? and then there are sanctions against individuals. so when you net it all out, there are a number of sanks -- >> yeah. at least how many. nine or ten? be more specific, i'd appreciate it. >> some of these are broader sanctions. for example, the not fully cooperating on terrorism implies other articles, so do you count that as a single sanction? then that would be one sanction. >> here's my whole point -- >> would the gentleman yield? >> i'd gladly yield -- >> thank you. it's approximately $117 million

a day. >> and that includes citgo oil company? >> >> that is what we are sending the pedevesa -- >> the money that we're we're paying -- >> 117 million a day. >> do you gentleman agree to that figure, $117 million a day that we're paying venezuela? >> well, sir, it obviously goes up and down depending on the production levels, the consumption levels in venezuela and the market. as i mentioned, i'd be happy to give you a more formal reaction in writing. >> so and i thank the chairman for that figure because the point i want to make is that we're putting all these sanctions into the fact that venezuela has this whole bunch of oil that it exports to our country, and it make it -- doesn't it make our sanctions look somewhat oblivious to the idea that, so what, you put sanctions, but we're still getting our money? does this make sanctions, our sanctions laws somewhat a

little -- >> if i may -- >> defective? >> the sanctions we're talking about are the sanctions directed against the government in tehran. now, of course, they capture venezuelan activities in tehran, i'm sorry, in venezuela because he was this active economic partnership. but that's the focus of this particular sanction. so, no, i don't think it looks silly. i mean, by the same token we've just sanctioned an israeli company, a u.k. company, a singaporean company. >> i'm not trying to say it makes it silly, my point is making it effective. have they been effective if we really want to use part of our foreign policy towards hugo chavez's regime and all that he's done, supposedly, contrary to our basic, fundamental principles of democracy and all of this? >> well, sir, i'll just speak to the iran side. >> no, i'm not talking about iran.

i'm talking about venezuela. >> well, we continue to provide him, obviously, with a flow of revenue. is if a decision is made to somehow create another mechanism that we would want to restrict that, or if pedevesa continues to ship -- >> wouldn't you say it's somewhat of a contradiction we have here? we're putting a whole bunch of sanctions against venezuela, and yet at the same time we're paying venezuela $117 million a day for its oil supply? and i'm sorry, my time's up, mr. chairman, thank you. >> thank you. the gentleman's time has expired. we now recognize the gentleman from florida for five minutes. >> thank you very much. congressman sires allude today the relationship between that nexus between venezuela and cuba. i want to try to drill down a little bit more, and i know we're going to have another round, so if we don't get through it all, i'll continue on the next round. for mr. benjamin, you were the

coordinator for counterterrorism. how many countries are on the list, the u.s. state department list of sponsors of state terrorism? is. >> currently on the list, iran, syria, cuba and sudan. >> so four countries. and with respect to cuba, why is cuba on that list? >> cuba was put on the list, i believe, in 1982 because of its support, principally, for its support of various terrorist and revolutionary movements within the hemisphere, and i think it's important to underscore that cuba has not met the standard for rescission which is to say that we need to be able to either certify that there's been a fundamental change in leadership and the country has ceased to support international terrorism, or that the

administration can certify that cuba has gone six months without support to foreign terrorist organizations and has given assure,s that it will not -- assurances that it will not support any international terrorism in the future. because of its continued relationship with the farc and the eln, cuba has failed to meet that standard. >> so cuba has a relationship with the farc, the eln, both terrorist organizations. what about eta? >> it's a good question, sir. i don't recall if there's any continued relationship with eta, but i can get back to you and confirm that. >> and what about any middle east-based terrorist organizations, hamas, hezbollah? >> i am unaware of any fund raising activity or operational activity from either of those groups in cuba, but i wil over d

members of the farc and the eln. and i believe, also, eta, although i don't know if they're currently doing so. >> you don't know if they're currently harboring -- >> eta. >> eta. but currently they are harboring farc and eln? >> yes, they have. >> how about members of the fbi most wanted list? how many of those do we have in cuba? >> frankly, sir, that's a -- in the law enforcement channel, and i would have to get back to you on. >> well, let me refresh your memory. does the name janet choosemard mean anything to you? would you consider her a terrorist? >> sir, i'd have to get back to you. i'm not familiar enough with the case. >> you're not familiar with the case? >> no, not sufficiently -- >> i'm going to yield for a moment to congressman sires to, perhaps, give us a little bit of the background since this occurred in his home state.

>> thank you, congressman. there's currently a $1 million bounty on janet. she was accused of shooting a state police officer point-blank on the highways of new jersey. so that's the reason. the state police has put a reward of a million dollars. she's been in cuba, now, for a number of years. thank you, congressman. >> thank you, congressman. and i believe that that was not just a random robbery, it was politically motivated, and i think most people would consider that a terrorist act. um, so i hope you'll become a little more familiar with that case in particular. what about narco traffickers in cuba? >> i think some of my colleagues may have more to say on narco trafficking issue. mr. whitaker? >> yes. as ambassador benjamin noted, there is evidence in the past eln and farc members having been

present in cuba. there are continuing allegations of cuban government involvement in narco trafficking, but nothing that we've been able to act upon. again, as ambassador benjamin noted, must much of this is in w enforcement channels. i would note that we have tried to reach out to the cuban government, and we have a coast guard attache who tries to work with the cuban government in order to identify and interdict -- >> before my last few seconds, just let me say in my next round i want to follow up with this because it seems as though we're placing sanctions on venezuela which is not on the terrorist list, but more recently we're lifting sanctions on cuba, and i'll get into that in the next round, which is on the terrorist list and, in fact, is harboring a cop killer from this country. so i'll go into that in the next round. thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you. i will now recognize the

gentleman from florida for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i apologize, i was a little late getting back. v you spoken -- have you spoken about the venezuelan airline at this point? my question is as follows: the u.s. announced it's going to sanction venezuela for it role in shipping weapons. can you speak to the possibility of sanctioning that airline, and wouldn't it be possible as well to sanction any airline that flies in and out of tehran if it can be linked to the shipping of sensitive technology and/or weapons? >> i'll give the preliminary answer and then my colleagues may want to follow up. as a practical matter, we do not discuss designations in public because of the possibility of tipping potential designees. regarding the hypothetical of whether others who are involved in the support of iranian

efforts to advance their nuclear program, it is certainly within the scope of the legislation to do that, and we would certainly look hard at doing that. but, again, i'll let those who deal with sanctions and the venezuelan case specifically -- >> and before they do, mr. benjamin, my point here is i would very much like to tip off, that's the purpose of the question, i would like to tip off any airline that is engaged in if transporting this sort of technology and/or weapons into or out of tehran that they would be summit to these sanks -- be subject to these sanctions. that's what i'm trying to confirm. >> i think that is a well known fact that airlines and other businesses in support of that effort can be sanctioned. >> then let me just move on to the sanctions regime. mr. delare, your office, your office commences and conducts all of the investigations of the

companies that may be subject to sanctions? >> mr. deutsche, no. we primarily work on the energy side of things. >> right. and under -- >> we work closely, of course, with mr. szubin on a variety of other things. >> but under, under ccsada the focus, those would be under your information? >> correct. >> how many people in your office do you have conducting those investigations? >> >> at the present time we have four plus support from our legal staff and the intelligence and research bureau. >> four full-time employees? >> three and a half. >> three and a half full-time employees. who are responsible for conducting the investigations to determine whether a company could be subject to sanctions under ccada? >> that's correct. >> can you, i won't ask you

whether that's a sufficient number, but i will ask whether you think the process, whether it would be possible to -- how many, let me do it this way. how many more investigations could be conducted at one time, how many can be conducted by one person? let me start with that. >> that's an interesting question. as it now stands, we have it divided by sectors, and i have, i think, everyone in the office doing a number of things simultaneously because various, let's face it a lot of media reports come in the door, they have to be evaluated. we then begin checking trade es, thembassies, .. .. intelligence community, so it's a constant pushing things through a process with lots of things in different stages. so hard to answer that directly. >> well, let me be a little more direct. >> yeah. >> for those of us who have expressed frustration for the pace of investigation -- well, we're not sure of the status of some of these investigations

because we're not informed until the end. but they don't seem to be moving quickly enough, could that be addressed if you had additional investigators, if you had more than the three and a half people who are responsible for all investigations? >> i think that's a fair assessment. but let me also make two points in regard to that. the it is a new piece of legislation even though it dates back to last july. in the intervening period, we have set up a procedure that never existed before. we have been exceedingly careful to due diligence and spent a little more time as we get used to this than would be necessary double checking facts. >> i only have ten seconds. one last question. if companies were required to disclose in their filings made to the fcc those companies that

trade on the american stock exchange whether they are doing business in iran that would be considered credible evidence in the immediately and should be immediately subject them to the possibility of sanctions. >> that might be so. let me get back to you more formally. >> thank you. >> we will start the second round by recognizing the gentleman from florida, mr. m k mack. >> thank you. why was cuba put on a state sponsor of terrorism list in 1982? >> it was put on a state sponsorship for supporting foreign terrorist organizations engaged in activities primarily in this hemisphere. for repeated acts of support of

international terror. >> in answering questions from my colleague, mr. rivera, you outlined some of those terrorist activities. can you tell me what the difference is between cuba and venezuela? >> it is important to underfor that the process of putting a stake on the list and the process of taking another state off the list are two different things. we have a very high bar for taking countries off the list. we want to make sure when we put countries on the list that we are not setting such a low threshold that we will bowfin create side-effects that will underth

create side-effects that will under -- undermine our efforts. >> okay. i want to -- you said -- gave us a definition why cuba was put on the state-sponsored terrorism list which is exactly what hugo chavez was doing in venezuela. why is it that we have q but as a state sponsor of terror and not venezuela? it goes to this point. the inconsistency another member brought up. on the one hand we have restricted visas to people in honduras who have fought for and defended the rule of law and freedom in their country. on the other hand there are people in venezuela who are sponsoring terrorism. how can cuba be put on the sponsored terrorism list and

venezuela doing the same thing not be placed on a state sponsor of terrorism list? >> i am not conversant with the honduras case but let me just say -- >> take my word for it. >> this is about effectiveness and using the appropriate tools at the appropriate time to elicit the correct response. >> when is the appropriate time? >> that is a matter we have to evaluate based on the activity going on and as we noted earlier the indicators are going in the right direction. it would seem not to be the right time. >> you mean the indicators brought about by another country's actions? >> we judge countries by the totality of their activity and of others alyssa good behavior we view that as a positive

development. >> >> put up the first slide. technical difficulties. are you familiar with that? if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck and looks like a duck it is a duck? next slide. if it walks like a terrorist, talks like a terrorist act like a terrorist than it is a terrorist and recognize hugo chavez and fidel castro, and mahmoud ahmadinejad, we can agree with that? next slide? hugo chavez, quote, enough of the imperialists aggression, we must tell the world down with the u.s. and higher. we have to bury imperialism this century. isn't hugo chavez a sponsor of

terror? >> as i said before, of venezuela is a engage in activities that we find unacceptable and we are engaged in a sustained effort to get them to stop those activities. we need to stop those activities in a way that will produce results. >> i now recognize mr. sayres from new jersey. >> they brought a considerable amount of weapons. >> that is correct. the principal purchases that venezuela has made over the course of the last several years have been from russia and they

include high-performance jet aircraft which have been delivered and the 72 tanks which have not been delivered and air defense system and in excess of 100,000 ak-47 rifles. there has been a significant arms purchase program by the venezuelan government. some of these purchases could probably be defined as purchases to replace superantiquated equipment. you might say that with respect to venezuela had long been a nation which purchased u.s. jet aircraft. we sold f-16s in the 1980s. those aircraft are at the end of their life and the venezuelan government chose to replace them with the court. that is an example of replacing superand you waited equipment and then there are new

capabilities. the t-72 tanks are new capability that traditionally venezuela has not had. >> also affect jury that was built in venezuela to make ak-47s? >> venezuela and russia signed a contract to build such a factory that would produce assault rifles. >> i had a conversation with panama. they found venezuela tried to influence the pharma especially. i am concerned maybe some of these arms will find their way to other countries in south america. do you have any concerns about that? >> a significant concern if venezuela were to start exporting weapons of war to

other nations. what we have seen principally over the course of the last several years is rather than exporting munitions and weapons and things like that is more trying to buy influence with money. that is the tactic the venezuelans have engaged in principally in central america and bolivia. there are limits to venezuelan -- venezuela as a matter of policy has chosen to spread money into the population. this has meant less money available for supporting these 4 activities that they would engage in. >> talking about money how much have they sent to cuba? >> the truth is we don't know the answer to that question. publicly available information indicates 50,000 barrels of oil a day go to cuba.

in addition -- that would be free or virtually free. venezuela has agreed to rebuild refinery in cuba. that activity has not been completed. finally cuba apparently charges for the doctors and other experts who work in venezuela the numbers of which -- there are estimates and we don't have precise figures but the estimates are 40,000 individuals and there is a fee the cuban government charges. >> i just want to know that you wanted to know that we buy $117,000 worth of oil a day from cuba. by my limited knowledge -- >> venezuela you mean. >> $42.7 billion worth of oil that we buy from venezuela each year. that is my limited knowledge of

mathematics. that is not peanuts in my humble opinion. >> now that i've lost my -- i just want to add following up on my friend, there is more than one in cuba that not just -- close to 100 escaped the united states in cuba. with sanctions. enjoying the beach and everything else. thank you. do you have any comments? >> in the past, i can tell you this is a regular topic of conversation we have with the cubans and other fugitive from u.s. justice. >> new jersey state troopers are not ever going to give up the request to have chesema exiled

and tried here. >> the chairman yields back on that. mr. whitaker, the only reason we haven't put venezuela on the state sponsor of terrorism list, isn't the only reason because we consume a lot of their oil? is that fair to say? >> i would dissociate myself from what ambassador benjamin said. we are trying to engage in sanctions designed to accomplish different ends and there are a number of factors that go into this process including economic effect we talk about and the effects on democratic development. >> what major economic affect other than oil? oil is the big one. we cited the number several times. that is the administration's concern. we consume a lot of their oil. >> i think it is broader than

that. the economic relationship broadly stated, there are dozens of u.s. companies that do business in venezuela today some of which are involved in the oil industry and provide oil support and loyal services and some are international oil companies like chevron and some are xerox. american airlines. these factors need to be taken into account as well in addition to the affect on democratic development within venezuela or diplomatic out reach our neighbors have engaged in. >> let's talk about all this money that does flow in. where does it go? do we have any idea or sense where these oil profits go once they get to venezuela? those treasury not track that at all? we send them $100 million a day. what is happening with that

money? >> i can't speak to the venezuelan government. our office focus -- does someone else want to address that? >> this is a change from the past which operated -- it was government owned but was an independent entity with its own financial structure. one change hugo chavez made was insist on renovations going to the government. if your assertion is they go to the government that is accurate. >> in comparison to other parts of their economy what proportion of their oil proceeds, of their economic input, how big is bad in their economy? >> if you're talking about government receipts is half of government receipts. if you are talking about exports is the lion's share of exports. i can get you the precise number but it is three quarters of the

total receipts from exports. >> very good. >> yield to the gentleman from florida, mr. mack. >> half of the receipts to the government come from the oil that is sold to the united states. is that what you said? >> half of government receipts come from proceeds -- not all the receipts come to the united states. the majority of exports go to the united states. >> i think what you are hearing from us is we want some sanctions that affect the oil industry in venezuela. let's not -- it is not an industry. it is hugo chavez. all of that oil we are funding

his ability to continue to sponsor terror and i think a lot of us are wondering -- this is a bipartisan issue. everyone is talking about the same thing. why aren't we putting these on especially when the state department, the secretary would it be side with the signature of a pan can allow the keystone -- can allow the pipeline to go through which would provide the oil from venezuela and if we don't he cannot continue to sponsor terror. it seems pretty simple. explain why it is not that simple. >> i would hesitate to say it was not that simple. >> i fully appreciate your

argument about alternate energy sources. the project will take ten years to come on line. >> we get that argument of a time. there has been study after study. all the time the study comes back in a positive way but the environmentalists whip it up again. we are going to continue to buy this when we can get it from our friends in canada. >> very true but we have to look at how the market stands today and we are in a difficult economic action. >> you can't look at the market in just today. >> i will look at the next five years and make adjustments. in the meantime we get that energy from somewhere. >> there is a concerted effort to say we are ok with terrorism if we keep the price of gas low. that is the concern a lot of us have. the administration makes a concerted effort -- three quarters of their revenue to hugo chavez. it is ok even though they are

participating in terrorism as long as we keep the price of gas down at 711. i yield five minutes to the gentleman from florida mr. rivera. >> you were the director of foreign assets control. you were in charge of regulating the trading with the enemy act? is that correct? >> cuba is regulated under that act. >> they were issued pursuant the trading with the enemy act. >> cuba is an enemy of the united states. >> the title of the statute congress passed as trading with the enemy act is our authority. >> i would presume cuba is considered an enemy of the united states. >> not for me to characterize. you are correct as to the title of this industry. how many flights were there

between iran and venezuela? i heard one flight a week? is that correct? >> what mr. whitaker mentioned was there had been a period of one flight a week and we believe that has stopped. >> how many flights are there between the united states and the other countries who are on the terrorist list? direct flights. original north korea, sedan and iran? how many direct flights a day? >> i don't know. >> do you not regulate those? would that not fall under your purview? >> i can answer. there are none. >> how many flights between the united states and our enemy, cuba, led a day?

>> commuter flights? >> any flights. >> would you be -- i would be happy to get the answer for you but i don't know of hand. >> you are the director of opec. you regulate the trading with the enemies act. flights between the united states and cuba, an enemy are regulated by you. >> yes. >> the only flights that exist according to the enemy's list are korea, sedan, cuba. you don't know how many flights. you don't know how many flights. you don't know how many flights. you don't know how many flights? >> that is right. >> i would like you to get me that information. not only the flights but whose chartering those flights and what companies own the

airplanes. are you familiar with who are chartering or what companies own the planes? >> i can tell you to operate a charter service with respect to cuba you need to be licensed by our office. there's a process, travel and service providers need to come in and make all sorts of showings as to the questions you are talking about, their ownership. >> you should be familiar with these flights. >> if i had a better memory i could recite the names of these charter companies but that is -- >> would you say the number is more than 10? less than 100? >> i don't know the number of flights a day. >> mr. whitaker, recently i understand it was a summary that was produced of a phone conversation you had with the

affairs of angelo rivera santos. did you have a phone conversation? >> i have spoken to him on the phone. i am not aware of any trace -- >> i received information of it being published where you congratulated him on the excellent diplomatic work done on the honduras crisis and invited him to meet with the secretary of state of venezuela and assured him venezuela was well represented in the state department and desired to work to improve relations. does this sound familiar? >> it does not. that was not a conversation i had. >> no conversation -- >> i spoke with george rivera on the phone. i would have to go back and check. what you just said -- >> what was the tenor of that conversation? >> i rarely speak with him. i had a recent conversation. it was highly operational in

nature and i would be happy to discuss that with you. the factors you just mentioned -- >> were never part of that conversation? >> and not things that i would say. >> if there are no further questions we will thank the witnesses for appearing here today. i would implore you in the future and ask the administration, work with us in providing witnesses and timely manner and providing testimony in reinstatement 48 hours in advance so we can do our jobs as well. i appreciate your commitment to our country and your sacrifice and service to the country. i'd hope it wasn't too painful to come before this committee and perhaps we will have you here again but we appreciate your testimony today. the committee will stand adjourned.

[inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] >> i am sorry? the question? >> what do you expect after these hearings? with the state department? >> i think it is very clear that the actions of hugo chavez is in support of terrorism weather

through support of the farc, or narcotrafficking. these are things that we know happened. and selling gasoline to mark mahmoud ahmadinejad is another link. hugo chavez should be staged -- placed on a state sponsor of terrorism list immediately. >> recent venezuela is not a state sponsor of terrorism is because of all the oil that comes from there? >> i think they have a hard time answering that question and i think that is the answer. they don't see the draw you in other sources of oil like canada and wants to send $117 million a day to venezuela. i would say this -- if the state department and the administration failed to act and don't want to act the at miss -- the american people need to stop

buying gas from citgo and forth this on the state department because people in america do not want to continue to support terrorist organizations. [inaudible question] >> we have a lot of support for it. in the last four years you have seen a wide broadening support for this idea. we have republicans and democrats working together all recognizing that hugo chavez supports terrorist organizations and should be named a state sponsor of terrorism. >> how do you see present sanctions? >> i think the label -- the fact the we have labeled hugo chavez -- the problem is the sanctions do nothing. there is no teeth in any of the sanctions by the state department on innovation. the three areas of sanctions are

things we currently aren't doing more engaged with in venezuela already. it is more in name only that they have been sanctioned. the problem the state department has is it shows again that hugo chavez is supporting terrorist organizations. by their own definition they should be placed on the state sponsor of terrorism like we have done with cuba. >> thank you so much. ..

>> don't you think it's time for a switch from that hair of the dog. it's time. >> this weekend we will talk with the creators. economics professor ross roberts. >> we are trying to reach people who are interested in how the world works. that is everybody from a high-school student who is curious about economics to a person who is just trying to make a living and get along and is worried about what is going on in washington or the country. >> sunday night at 8:00 eastern on c-span q&a. >> this weekend book tv and american history tv look at the history and literary life of

savannah, georgia with book tv advance on c-span2 including the childhood home of a novelist and short story writer o'connor, our conversation. also, torre of urban slavery sites with civil war savannah, author vonnegut walker and on american history tv talk travel to the founding days of savannah as we visit the site of work clothes position at the core elements call local content. this weekend on c-span2. >> at today's date department briefing a main topic of questioning was a humanitarian scrips plans to send a flotilla to eight palestinians in gaza. this part is 15 minutes. >> president obama designated you.

the want to announce today the department of state. [inaudible] [inaudible] they're both. [inaudible] [inaudible question] >> i would simply say we were very gratified and look forward. [inaudible question] >> i don't have anything at the

moment. [inaudible question] >> i don't have anything further. [inaudible question] >> right. the year that we have, it is clear.

so put it all in one. [inaudible question] [inaudible] >> there has been some progress. so we would like to -- [inaudible]

[inaudible question] >> the concessions of those involved in the flotilla, the spirit of the questions. [inaudible] we do not want to -- and novel. [inaudible] >> what kind of a flotilla?

>> again, i don't want to get into this small -- [inaudible] homeland. >> i understand. i'm not quite sure. >> the appropriate decision and agree meccas for delivering aid to the people of gaza. >> well, but you believe that israel is within its rights to defend itself to take on our to prevent ships from going into international waters?

>> again, not gone to speak to international waters, territorial waters. i'm simply saying that we are encouraging those who want aid the people of gaza to use the channels that have been established. >> all right. and then was -- on the flotilla -- this is the middle east -- i just want to know, wondering if there's any update on the quartet meeting in brussels? >> simply that they had a good meeting today, they did begin a conversation about when they're going to meet next, and they're looking for it to do that in the next few weeks. but i don't have any specific announcements out of the quartet today. >> is there -- is the thought that the next meeting would be at the principles level or is it going to be, again, at the -- at the invoice level? >> i sent decisions have not been made on that subject. yes. >> to follow-up on the -- >> just to -- this is a follow-up. >> are we on the flotilla to are we -- >> we're on the flotilla.

system make sure, does the u.s. considers applique legal. >> i think the main point we were trying to make in the state and was there with betsy's the channels aversive, the channels that are going to guarantee that the aid gets wait needs to get to the people it's intended for and to discourage, in stark terms, any action on the high seas that could result in the conflict. >> right, but again, that doesn't answer the question of the illegality or it that -- with the u.s. perceives that blockade as legal and not. >> i don't have anything for you on legality here. we can take as charter look at that if you like, but again, the reason that the secretary spoke to this yesterday when she was asked, the reason that we put out this very false statement that points people and the correct direction, is because we want to avoid the problems of last year and we do believe that there are good and reliable channels for giving assistance to the people of gaza. >> and just one more, i'm sorry. the people are putting this together have a rather a lever website and they say that -- on

that at the u.s. should be protecting the rights of american citizens are protecting the safety abroad. so that is the argument that they are making. they're very disappointed and shocked the city apartment lobby warning people off. what do you say to that? >> it is in the interest of protecting the americans and other citizens from around the world who might be thinking about encouraging teeseven gazing in provocative moves like this that we were putting out these warnings so strongly in the same season for have this problem last year. we don't want to see a repeat, and we do believe that those who want to a dozen can do so and need to do so and the correct manner. please. >> she kept repeating that they have available to them proper channels and so on. what -- could you share with some of the proper channels. >> well, the rough crossing, as you know, is open again, and we have seen an uptick in the humanitarian aid is going

through there. there are also chester is real, and we have been relatively incurs that the flow of humanitarian aid to gaza through these appraisals is improving. >> but it was recently opened. i mean, until then, it was completely closed. so that's one issue. and another, could you clarify for us whether, in fact, the gaza waters or crossing through the gaza waters, is that legal or illegal under the laws of the seas and so on? >> i think that's the same question that still was asking. and i will admit to you i'm not a lot of the sea expert here, but let me take the question. >> okay. and a quick follow-up on the quartet to beedis said it is a good meeting. now what constitutes a good meeting? how was the, let's say, the meeting today different or improved the situation from, let's say, 24 hours ago? >> well, as he saw and has been discussing here for the course of the last week, david hale has been involved very intensively

with the parties, with the regional states. for the members of the quartet, i think it was a chance to compare notes on diplomacy that we've been doing, and diplomacy that other members of the quartet have been doing in our shared effort to get these parties back to the table. so that there was a lot to discuss and then to take stock of where the gun next. >> can i do a follow-up on the flotilla? my understanding is that there were a number of americans a plan to participate and went into your -- i believe in your embassy in athens and saw some advice. can he tell us what the masses to them in person was today? >> i'm sure that the message to them in person was identical to the statement that we put up today, that we would ask him to use the established and reliable channels and to refrain from actions that could lead to the kind of difficulty that we saw last year. >> when you say that you want -- you don't want a repeat of last year, you want people to refrain from actions that can lead to the kind of difficulty that you

saw last year, is that only applied to the flotilla organizers or does that apply to israel? >> we've been urging all sides will, whether it's the ngo or whether it's governments involved, that we not have a repeat of what happened last year. and i think this speaks to the fact that the neighboring states that -- to gaza have worked hard to establish legitimacy mechanisms, efficient mechanisms to get aid in says of the people have a way to do this other than to risk provocative action. please, jill. >> and other subjects? >> anybody -- anything else on this? >> just one more on this. yep. i don't think he said it, but people of the state department have said israel has a right to defend itself against these photos. what exactly would it be defending against, that? that's not what's not clear to me. >> like all states, israel has a right of national self-defense.

again, i don't want to get into where the boat might be an law of the sea and all this kind of stuff. we are simply saying this is the wrong way to get aid to gaza. the correct way to give aid to gaza is to be established mechanisms which are improving, which are open, and which can get aid to the people that it's intended for. >> but assist humanitarian aid, so i don't see why it would be -- is or what have to defend itself if its just humanitarian aid coming in. >> is the matter of all states to provide post offense, but i'm -- again, my pride to get into law of the see issues here. recently trying to make the point that we want this done in a way that not only is going to get the a rates intended, but is going to ensure that we don't have dangerous incidents. >> in general, would you say that the administration, the u.s. government, is -- would advise anyone against provocative acts? >> i think that's a fair point. >> it is. okay.

so you don't see, when the secretary comes out in support of women who wanted drive in saudi arabia, deliberately violating saudi laws and regulations, that -- for support of that is -- doesn't mean that you're not -- i mean, i don't understand where you -- if your coming out against all provocative acts committed seems to me that that's a pretty provocative act, and get supporting that. >> the secretary was supporting the right of not only saudi women, women around the world, to live as men do. she was an encouraging any particular course of action one way or the other. she was simply making a strong public statement of empathy and support for the campaign that these women are on to have these laws changed. >> okay. so it provocative act in support of the palestinians in gaza is that okay, the? >> i don't think we are supporting provocative acts of any kind. i think you can't equate these two bases. the secretary was simply speaking to the aspirations of saudi women to have the laws of the country changed.

she wasn't encouraging any particular course of action for that. >> okay. let me try and put it a different way, then. you believe that because there are established -- already established means, the israeli port where things are inspected, that in that case, being provocative is unnecessary and unwise because this is not needed. there are other ways to do is? is that -- does the bottom line? >> that's certainly the case, and we don't want further incidents. it's not in anybody's interest. >> is the regular brocade a provocative act? >> at think we've got as far as are going to go on this subject. >> i'll ask again. is the naval blockade a provocative action? >> we would consider provocative and it would be dangerous to have a repeat of the situation that we saw last year. >> but the current existing blockade, the naval blockade of

gaza, is that provocative action or is it not? >> as i said, we believe that there are legitimate and efficient ways to get assistance into gaza and that those mechanisms are working and were seeing, as a result of them, an improvement in the humanitarian situation. >> tonight on c-span2 at a house hearing examines the problem of declining bat populations followed by a hearing on economic sanctions against venezuela for its ties to a romp and the state department spokesman discusses the position of palestinians in gaza at today's daily briefing. >> this weekend on c-span2 book tv christian broadcasting analyst terence on his belief that the government conceals the magnitude of terrorist threats against the u.s., how the global economy will change over the next 50 years and affect people in advance to developing countries and recounting president grover cleveland's

secret surgery in 1893. look for the complete book tv schedule at booktv.org, and sign up for book tv alerts to receive weekend schedules in your in box. >> starting next month we will be able to remove 10,000 of our troops from afghanistan by the end of this year. we will bring home a total of 33,000 troops by next summer. >> follow the time line on the war in afghanistan and search over 4,000 entries online at the c-span video library. search, wants to mike put pans share every c-span program since 1983. it's washington your way. >> the white and this is a disease that has killed more than a million bats as 2006. the house national resources subcommittee looked into the problem and its potential for causing billions of dollars in agricultural losses. this hearing is an hour and 20 minutes.

[inaudible conversations] >> the chairman knows the presence of a quorum. >> good morning. today we are having a follow-up hearing on a subject this subcommittee first examined in june 2009. this was first discovered in caves west of albany, new york in 2006. the white-nose syndrome has killed more than 1 million bats. it has spread to 18 u.s. states from maine to kentucky. under community rule for f opening statements are limited to the chairman and ranking member of the subcommittee so that we can hear from our witnesses more quickly. however, i ask unanimous consent to include any other member's opening statements in a hearing record submitted to the clerk by close of business today. hearing no objection, so

ordered. despite a considerable -- a considerable amount of effort by six federal agencies in various affected states which has spent more than $60 million we are no closer to stopping this disease, which has devastated more than half of these 47 species of bats native to north america. why is this hearing important? bats consume vast amounts of insects. according to the april edition of science magazine their value to the u.s. agriculture is between 37 -- 37 billion to 53 billion each year in the united states. they pollinate more than 360 plants and are so effective and dispersing sees that they have been called the farmers of the tropics. also, certain species can capture from 500 to a thousand mosquitos in just one hour. a single colony of 150 brown

bats in indiana has been estimated to annually eat nearly 1 million pest insects. we also know that 1 million vats that have already died from the fungus would have consumed more than or between 660 and 1300 metric tons of in sex each year. by losing these bats farmers and timber harvesters now have to spend millions of additional dollars to buy pesticides that would protect their crops and trees. as a doctor i was interested in learning that some 80 different medicines come from plants that the bats to survive. while it is reassuring to note no human ellis has been associated with exposure to infected vats or caves, it is important that we try to find out why this fungus is killing bats in the united states yet apparently the same disease is not causing mass mortality in europe. although this disease has spread

through back-to-back contact, the fish and wildlife service and the u.s. forest service has closed thousands of caves and abandoned mines in an effort to try to stop the spread of this disease. i am interested in finding out the results of these efforts and what are prohibiting him in caving activities has saved hibernating bats. i look forward to hearing from our distinguished witnesses and how we can effectively address what many experts are now calling the most precipitous wildlife decline in the past century in north america. now, before we -- before i recognize the gentle lady from bonn, i will mention that we're probably going to have about in about ten minutes. we will try to get through our witnesses as much as possible. i understand it's one, maybe two votes of the most. we will come right back immediately after voting in pick up where we left off. with that i am not pleased to recognize the gentle lady from

guam. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman. i would like to say good morning and welcome to all of our witnesses. the white -- white-nose syndrome is named for the striking fumble growth on the muzzle, years, wings, and tales of bats. much remains unknown about this disease, which was first documented west of albany new york and february of 2006. over the last five years white-nose syndrome has spread to at least 16 states and also canada. the mortality caused by the white-nose syndrome are astonishing. they reach up to 99 percent in some cases. over 1 million little brown bats have been killed, likely contributing to a 78% decline in the calls of these bats in the night sky over the hudson river. white-nose syndrome in dance has profound public health

environmental and economic impacts. that's our niche is best control of the insect population. this single bat can eat its entire weight in insects in just one night. when not controlled many insects spread disease and others are agricultural pests. a study by one of today's witnesses, dr. justin boyles, estimated that this benefit provided by bats to the agricultural sector is between three to $53 billion per year. bats with white -- white-nose syndrome exhibit uncharacteristic behavior is and emerged from hibernation during the winter consuming fat reserves messmate -- which may result in starvation. transmission of the disease is not fully understood. it is believed to be back to back or transferred by humans who visit the affected caves.

some caves have been closed on federal lands, although federally managed caves account for only 34 percent of the known risk areas 60 percent are located on privately held lands. it is clear that there are still large gaps in our understanding of this disease. we must continue to support research about causes of and vectors for the spread of white-nose syndrome. on the effectiveness of tender control measures to better mesa's disease and insure that the night sky is once again told of insect hunting that's. two years ago this subcommittee held an oversight hearing on white-nose syndrome and found a commendable amount of cooperation and coordination among federal and state wildlife and land management agencies. the recent relief of in national plan for existing assisting

states federal agencies and tribes in managing white-nose syndrome end vats provides a framework to continue this coordination. i do look forward to hearing more from our witnesses today on the implementation and on other recommendations on how to address this challenging disease. mr. chairman, i yield back. >> i think the gentle lady, ranking member, and want to congratulate her for having it shared the first comprehensive congressional hearing on the white-nose syndrome. the notes have already been called. it is only one vote. i'm going to go ahead and release the committee subcommittee to vote and then returned immediately. we will begin hearing from our witnesses. i do appreciate your patience on this, but we won't have any further interruptions after this and will be good for the remainder of the hearing. thank you.

[inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] >> okay. he will come to order. [laughter] the room is a low warm, but we have asked to turn the temperature down. hopefully it will feel more comfortable quickly. absolutely. we think it is the lights. not to mention the 110 percent humidity and 99 degrees outside.

okay. i'm addressing the witnesses. like all witnesses, your written testimony will appear in full in the hearing record, so i ask that you keep your oral statements to five minutes as outlined in our invitation letter to you. under rule 48 our microphones are not automatic, so please press the button when you're ready to begin. i also want to explain how our timing let's work. when you begin to speak or clerk will start the timer, and the green line will appear. after foreman is the yellow light will appear, and that is the signal to you to go ahead and begins to wrap up. when the red light comes on that means your time is up, your full five minutes. so we would certainly ask you to conclude with that sentence if at all possible. you may complete his sentence, but at that time i must ask the stop. i would like to welcome today's witnesses.

first of all, i hope i've coming close to the correct pronunciation. science adviser to the director of the u.s. fish and wildlife service accompanied by dr. david lee hurt. microbiologist at the national wildlife health center, the u.s. geological survey who will be available to answer questions. associate deputy chief u.s. forest service. dr. jonathan gasted, commissioner, kentucky department of fish and wildlife services resource. executive director of bat conservation international. mr. petrie and bear, white nose syndrome liaison, national

spelling logical society, and dr. justin boyles, department of ecology and evolutionary biology, university of tennessee. you're recognized for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. dr. gabriela chavarria, science adviser to the director of the u.s. fish and wildlife service, and i would like to recognize with me dr. bird frost. ..

when i was first discovered hibernate in the winter and grows and low temperatures. like others they found an environment it grows from leaving tissues and the bets that a hibernating in the bat population 80 to 100% of maxwell died. like most mammals, bats have only one each year and leave only five to 15 years. while this challenging to estimate the number of that's killed, a percentage of that lost losses have been a significant in the case with

affected bats. winos in terms not of from can go to tennessee. it has been confirmed in 16 states and four canadian provinces. evidence indicates express may be spread through human activity in case and mind where bats hibernate the role of bats you both have mentioned is critical, is very important. but the department of interior two years ago when the disease was recognized started to lead a coordinated effort and response together with the bureau within the department of interior, fish and wild service, national park service and bureau of land management, the usda, department of agriculture or the federal agencies affected states, the academic communities and private non-profit organizations. we assemble a team of 100

experts that come from different partners and organizations and are working together to monitor winans interim. the conductors and some research, medication and conservation efforts and conduct outreach through the national plan. the team of partners is working to identify the impact of bat populations and the ecosystem as a whole. the mechanisms by which the strength needed and the mechanisms to which it contributes to mortality in affected backs. the team is also cooperating to monitor the spread it to the management and contant options for federal and state wildlife managers. the team of partners has developed science based approaches within the framework of the national plant. we have established an executive committee that oversees the work of the partnership and

facilitates the coordination. this executive committee is cochaired by the u.s. fish and wildlife service and fish and wildlife agencies. the united states geological survey is the science branch of the bureau -- a branch of the department of interior. it conducts and partners to conduct much of the research supporting our response to the white-nose syndrome. the park educates the visitors about white-nose syndrome and his dissolved management recommendations for the units and affected or potential affected areas. the bureau of land management is an active partner. the department works very closely with the recreational research communities to improve the contamination particles and access recommendations to limit the spread through human activities we have closed the

caves to prevent the spread and we understand and share concerns about the loss of recreational opportunities and tourism supports the economies. many of our land serve as stakeholders and we find new ways to minimize such impacts. white-nose syndrome is the greatest challenge to the bat conservation we've ever faced. we are very happy to be here. we are very happy that the committee has the strong interest in this issue, and we will be happy to collaborate and i would be happy to answer any questions. thank you. >> thank you, dr. chavarria and for your testimony. next, we have mr. pina. >> thank you. the subject of white-nose is important to force managers.

wildlife and mergers and cultural producers and members of the public. the service is contributing to the larger effort to better understand white-nose syndrome is playing a role in hibernation sites in caves and abandoned or active mines. the service is to sustain the gulf, diversity and productivity of the nation's forest and grasslands to meet the needs of the present and future generations. this includes the health, diversity and productivity of many species that use the nation's forest and grasslands as habitat including bats. i'm going to focus my remarks on what we are doing to try to coordinate and collaborate as opposed to cash the number of a science topics. so the coordination and cooperation among all parties involved in addressing white-nose syndrome as critical to address, to arrest the spread of white-nose syndrome.

the service is committed to partnership and cooperation with other federal, state, tribal, wildlife management agencies, universities, industrial and non-industrial private forest owners and non-governmental organizations such as that conservation international, international societies. the service has been a coal operator in the development of the national white-nose syndrome response plan and served on white-nose syndrome working groups is actively involved in the development of several parts of the implementation plan. there's evidence to suggest that humans can spread white-nose syndrome from a cave to cave on their equipment. in an attempt to slowed the spread we and closed nearly all caves in abandoned mines in the southern come eastern and rocky mountain regions. expectations -- exceptions to the closure orders are for the

research and monitoring, law enforcement, research search and rescue operations in any case specifically posted as open. we implemented the closures because we observed white-nose syndrome jump from new york to south west virginia in one winter and in the next winter the fungus that causes was detected in the oklahoma panhandle. a far greater distance than bats could travel in such a short time frame. there is no known cure for white-nose syndromes we must rely upon trying to limit the disease spread between the geographic regions and using the decontamination procedures. see the caves may have slowed the west were spread is likely to our early to tell. bye acting now we hope to substantially delay the spread for science to inform more effective ways to manage and contained on this. defender growing concerns over

the viability of the bat populations and the awareness of the role of that's maintaining healthy ecosystems the research and develop and has established that research struck the united states for the past three years we've expanded research to address challenges posed by white nose syndrome. the current research efforts are aimed at the white knows syndrome and biological control planning for conservation and recovery of affected populations by evaluating the liability assessing and quantifying the economic and ecological importance of the agricultural systems and finally assessing the habitat requirements and the effect of the forest management on bats. forest service lands and the impacts closures are having and will continue to have on the run creating public. we will continue evaluating these decisions as new information and science becomes

available with the intent of balancing greater access to caves while striving to maintain healthy bat populations. in conclusion, responding to the serious threat to the bat populations posed by the white-nose syndrome. to further the conservation management in diverse habitat on the national forest motherland's the committee -- with federal state and tribal and non-governmental organizations. i would be happy to take any comments or questions at this time. >> thank you, mr. pena for your testimony. now doctor gasset, five minutes the commissioner of the kentucky to provide a fish and wildlife resources and vice president for the association of wildlife agencies as well as the chair of the association white-nose syndrome working group. the last several years my

personal involvement in white-nose syndrome grown from watching its advance moving southward and westward to the association of working group to garner the state awareness to bearing the responsibility in my own state upon confirming white-nose syndrome this spring. i'm encouraged the amount of dedication and commitment by the community of individuals both here and abroad that care deeply about the resources. plame here today to bring you a state perspective for the battle against white-nose syndrome will be won or lost. in my home state of kentucky, we are known for a few products for the substrate, the best thoroughbred race horses in the world and find kentucky bourbon are products of the limestone beneath our feet. the limestone typography is also conducive to cave formations. it's home to thousands of the caves and caverns, some large such as mammoth caves and some so small you couldn't fit a single person in sight. what many of these have in common are the bats live there and the ecosystem of the facts support, kentucky is come to a number of that species including

a large percentage of the willson population of the federally endangered bats and indiana bats. the fact be a tremendous numbers of caves home to these bats are experiencing the disease with the potential to devastate numbers obviously causes concern. since the discovery of white-nose syndrome a few years ago aggressively increased surveillance of a maturing that's the ticket of land owners on the importance of minimizing the disturbance and closed non-commercial caves on public land known to the house that's. we initiated a private land and assisted the surface of the cave closured advisory. have we taken drastic measures? yes. will they be effective at controlling the spread of the disease? we are not sure yet first is spread once it's got there it's been controversial. for the civil several years prior to the discovery of the season kentucky we began initiating the closures on state-owned land. one of the closures was a small community of the carter case the weekend before major caving even

that had over 900 participants register we decided what jeopardize the resident bats from a cave for bringing in affected material. we closed this event three days before it happened. the cave community was disappointed and worked with the state park to offset the revenue losses but the local economic impact was significant to the small community. we followed the public can closures the turning toward private land caves and work with owners corporately through an educational campaign to inform do the good of the advisory and ask them to voluntarily closed their caves of the eda caves we sent letters to only three refuse to sell the remainder did. land owners are responsible for the disease threat. the cave closures have been the only controversial approach to controlling the disease in kentucky. once we found it this spring, we -- once it was found in a high we revisited a sample of caves across the state to be sure we

haven't missed it. unfortunately we did turn the disease of in western kentucky so we consulted with our federal programs because there were federal bats involved and began an immediately, and it my all radius and it turned out this was an isolated event so we took what some people would say drastic measures and made and evaluated situation determined we could protect the threatened and endangered bats but we could remove infected but remove the infected non-endangered bats. we did so and removed approximately 60 bats which were all we could get to that time. we made a difficult call to hartel to the cultural official with the bats were infected we attach artificial structures to keep bats in the future from roosting there. so obviously, there were folks from the caving community and from the cave site of things that were upset about fact we have virtually physically altered the cave but to us it wasn't worth the risk of allowing those 3500 federally lifted backs that were in the

cave the opportunity to roost in an area that might become infected. we've taken drastic measures in kentucky and feel that is what states have to deutsch of the monthly when this fight for this disease. there's a litany of needs to address white-nose syndrome in the realm of research. we ask the research activities and funding focus on treatment and on the ground management needs. as white-nose syndrome moves across the landscape in a coordinated effort is more important than before and wildlife managers are in need of support to broaden surveillance efforts. we have thousands of caves in kentucky it's difficult to surveil them all. states need to continue to support all entities both private and public, federal and nonprofit to effectively manage on the broad scale and congressional support funding is critical if we are to conserve the biological treasure. one of the professionals in this realize this may be the most challenging wildlife disease issue in time we are optimistic and hopeful they will be found, we will continue to press

forward working in concert to ensure the populations of four of every opportunity to thrive. mr. chairman and subcommittee mayors, thank you for the opportunity to share perspectives and i would be pleased to answer any questions. >> thank you, dr. gassett. next, you're recognized for five minutes. >> thank you committed good morning. a ranking member and members of the subcommittee, thank you for providing this opportunity to testify on this important issue today. i'm the executive director of bat conservation international, a nonprofit organization headquartered in austin texas. i have about 30,000 members and supporters of all 50 states and abroad. thank you for addressing an issue that can only be described as a massive wildlife crisis. this disease we are talking of white-nose is underestimating the american bat population. scientist describes the disease as causing the most precipitous decline in wildlife in north america. since the discovery in 2006,

more than 1 million bats have died and i would say although the official numbers more than a million, bats are hard to count, and the number likely in the millions. the disease strikes hibernating bats through the winter and caves and minds of the 45 that species 25 hibernate. so more than half of the species in the u.s. are at risk. it currently affects millions including a two endangered species, the indiana bat and agree that. they are so severe researchers are predicting a regional expansion of the little brown bats which is one of america's most common mammals in the northwest region and as little as 16 years. bats provide enormous benefits and have economic consequences. the primary predators are critical to maintain the balance of nature. all its body weight and consuming huge numbers of insects that damage crops of

cotton and potatoes. 1 million bats and a conservative member of the amount that have died so far would have consumed nearly 700 tons of insects a year which is a lot to lose. the study published this in the journal science that you both mentioned estimates the value to the agricultural industry the two or 53 billion a year and move the researchers believe that the cultural industry will see impacts of this in as little last 45 years. in addition to the losses farmers need to use more pesticides which of course is an economic burden to them as the woods adding more pollutants to the environment. the damage such as the spread disease as mosquitos. another issue is the population declines from the white-nose center could lead to that species under the endangered species act or steep falls which could cause further far-reaching economic impacts.

there's been several petitions of the status reviewed and many states are actively in bat species. the regulation spending from bat species could have economic impact on many industries including mining, even some industry, forced to come of transportation, tourism and outdoor recreation. the national plan for states federal agencies and tribes and managing represents the first step in combating this interim and addressing the critical need for the national plans for the crisis. we recognize the details will appear in the print implementation plan is developed by steve interpol oral agencies but we must stress the implication is urgent. we encourage the agency to identify detailed concrete actions for fighting the white-nose syndrome and begin to address them but to do so requires funding and the need for the funding is increasing as the disease spreads. in fy ten of the fish and wildlife service awarded one print 6 million for the white-nose syndrome grant process which the agency

reviewed 10.5 million proposals. so clearly, the demand for the research funds outstrips the supply to also come to western spread of disease is increasing the need for federal response and funding of wealth that have a higher proportion of public land than in the east and about the western bat populations and the rugged terrain at west makes the data gathering more difficult. at this point as little as the first for which the state significant white-nose syndrome expenses many of which go toward serving approximately 400 western caves and abandoned mines from the baseline data on the populations. we recognize the congress is choosing difficult financial times so let me point out the money spent on the centrum is a wise investment. stopping white-nose syndrome will address future expenses to the u.s. economy interesting from forestry and additional cost of species recovery announced the cure to read

without the efforts of federal government, white-nose syndrome will continue to spread across the country telling even more bats, ecological impacts will affect all of us as consumers, taxpayers and residents of the planet further impoverished by the biological diversity. thank you again for this opportunity to share that conservation international on this series model. >> thank you. 64. thank you german fleming and members of the committee. i appreciate the opportunity to return to speak about white-nose syndrome. my name is peter and i'm testifying on behalf of the over 10,000 members of the national psychological society. we are submitting our 70th anniversary as the nation's oldest and largest organization dedicated to the study of exploration and conservation of ks and resources. the affiliated cave conservancy including endangered batt hibernaculum and several

affected with white-nose to get along with a written testimony, you've provided in april issue of our society's news which includes several articles addressing many of the questions you asked about today. one of those articles features a joint show expedition of the nss west virginia department of resources and u.s. fish and wildlife service and to the hell hole west virginia and several important things we know about white-nose. 50,000 little brown bats dalia nearly half the population and in contrast with the intent% of the federally endangered indiana bats showed signs of disease and the population doubled. the virginia that's federally endangered show no signs of the disease. concurrent with observations elsewhere we know white-nose affects species differently or not at all and the microclimates are a factor in the development. finally, this cave is willson stand protected by an electronic much ring system. we know no human entered the cave since 2007 and we know that that's transmit the disease but after five years there is not a

single documented case of human transmission. we do not know what epidemiologists call the infection how much on this is necessary to in fact bats to read disease transmission depends on critical mass of pathogens, sufficient hosts and environmental conditions, a perfect storm. the same fondness is widespread in europe but bats are not dalia thus we still can't say for certain this isn't the cause of the disease. we still love madrid for stopping the killing quite knows and the substances called on guess what can only tell the banks and other form of kids life. even if the treatment were difficult the logistics tree millions of that's in more than 50,000 known caves and hundreds of thousands of mines are staggering if this suggests efforts may need to shift to the recovery and conservation. bats are assassinating valuable part of the ecosystem and you'll hear about the potential effect of the loss bats could have on the agriculture and forestry however there is already known economic impact by white-nose management. the canceling of major caving evens and the closing of state

parks with pete jeeves has cost of travel and tourism industry and the state. the association trade group for commercial caves reports a environment where they are receiving asking if they are open or worse why are the open? with revenues of more than 117 million an economic impact effective up to 1.5 times that, every new head when that trumpets government closes caves is harmful to commerce and does little to help that's. regarding funding the money has often defended a minority of white nose research to date. the first of the written testimony is a summary of published white-nose research put together by dr. thomas kunes of boston university who testified two years ago. the nss together funded 32 projects over $200,000. fish and wildlife states on its website is bent over 11 million on the white-nose but only 3 million on research to read the balance is wrong. there's too much bureaucracy and management and not enough our

science. the national plan has major problems with little more than a broad outline it lacks any measures for evaluating whether any activities are working or not. it has no budgetary company or means of prioritizing in a restrictive fiscal environment and finally, being a fish and wildlife document, it is narrowly focused on the on biology, provide another kid science and conservation concerns. the second appendix contains the draft which change will despite over the tough calls and comments. finally, we've seen no evidence the blanket closing of caves and mines has done anything to slow or stop white-nose. this shouldn't be surprising. in the eastern u.s. the us ledger r. dee or privately owned and open. as, and send a letter of the ozark laboratory points out closing on the government ksas of fighting a forest fire by building the control of only 5% of the fire perimeter. further the strategy targeted only at the underground habitat and a potential yet unproven factor to read these call for private land owners to the same

unfairly targets the ks orders and stigmatizes them as environmentally insensitive. further, the lead the natural allies and the 70 year history of collaboration and collaboration. we asked for congress help. we need targeted not blanket management that is evidence based and not speculation base. we need significant increase in research funding and ask the congress insist on hard science measures and transparency and accountability and ask that you listen to the people who know the caves the best. thank you again for the opportunity to testify to it i will leave you with our model cave softly, cleanly, take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints and killed nothing but time. >> thank you for those words of wisdom. finally, dr. baliles, you have five minutes, sir. >> chairman, ranking member and members of the subcommittee think you for allowing me to testify today. i've conducted research on bats for nearly ten years and

involved in research on the white-nose syndrome since it was discovered. there are 45 species in the united states 42 of which are the bat species affected by white-nose syndrome are the predators of the insects and the top predators in the respected food web and in the united states well known predators of pest insects including corporate worms, cucumber beatles, leafhoppers and many others. the pests attack a multitude of the agricultural horticultural and forestry products among in putting out of dewaal list cotton, corn, potatoes, cucumbers, squash, melons, pumpkins, apples, strawberries, roses, spruce and fir trees. they illustrate just how many insects are consumed by bats to read a study that was mentioned reports that an average colony of 150 big brown bats may consume on the order of 1.3 million pest insects each summer to put this in perspective, there are roughly 20,000 big brown bats that were

used in the buildings of the fort collins colorado alone. a second study from the northeastern united states suggest a single little brown bat may consume four to 8 grams each night during summer. extrapolating the values the 1 million that have dogged today from white-nose syndrome means between 1.5 to 3 million pounds for going uneaten each summer in the area affected by white-nose syndrome. economic estimates of the value of the bats are rare but the studies from the domaine de linscott xin texas suggest bats are worth between 12 to $174 per acre per year depending on a number of factors including the density in a given year. one of these values will be easily vary across the united states because differences in the monetary value, the amount of pesticides used in the bat and insect communities in each area is simple extrapolation to uphold a culture in the united states suggest they may be worth between three to $53 billion per year to the national economy. in portland, bats have been

shown to limit insects or by insects in tropical and temperate forest however the estimates i've given do not consider the value of bats to the forestry industry or to the cost associated with the secondary effect of the pesticide use on the ecosystems in public health of us all available evidence suggests bats are valuable to the economy and i would venture they are the most economically important on domesticated mammals in the united states. regarding the closing of the caves and mines which is an obviously controversial step in the management of the white-nose syndrome samore to little or no evidence exists to cave closures have or will flow the spread of white-nose syndrome. weigel the statement is correct or may be factually correct it is misleading because in my opinion it is a proposition that is exceedingly difficult testify scientifically and therefore difficult to refuse or support. the evidence cited by other witnesses on the pendulum another quickly mounting evidence suggests tiemann facilitated movement might distract the fund is we are talking about are possible.

tiemann facilitated dispersal events may be disproportionately more devastating than that facilitated the vans because of the distances humans can move the fungus. for civil even a single the introduction of the destructive and it's by humans into the western united states could lead to the collapse of an entirely new debt community which is unlikely in the next five to ten years given the current rate of expansion of the white-nose syndrome. in my opinion the risk of the cave visitations to ecosystems and the economy out with the possible benefits and i believe the case closure policy implemented by federal and state agencies are both unwarranted and prudent. finally come in the roughly five years since white-nose syndrome in march, researchers amassed a body of knowledge about the disease given the scale of the problem very little funding has been available and we've done a lot with very little. still, large gaps remain in the understanding of white-nose syndrome and many are vital to the control of the destructive and in conserving and restoring population. the only way to fill the g