they don't just have integrity and change it. it would be so easy to do and everyone would respect them so much. they do have that. notice they don't ever have the ohio spics or niggers which is exactly the same thing. if they thought of it in those terms they might change it. but they don't feel the same way about redskins or braves or whatever, sooners. they don't feel the same way. it is meaningless. it is as if we don't exist to them. >> host: this e-mail from rose. as a native woman formerly working in academia, i frequently find myself in a position of explaining native

versus non native ideas of intellectual property and how of this influences what is considered appropriate to share outside our communities particularly regarding spirituality. could you discuss how this has influenced your work? .. i don't share some things -- i wouldn't share some things but i think as a native woman, formerly working in academia, there are things i really miss, like, finding out what are -- what new books are coming out and things like that. but the misconceptions about spirituality are really great. and are enormous. and i've finally decided i just don't say very much about it. my response is that our

spirituality is the same all over the world, the indigenous people respect the life of nature and that's our basic spirituality. .. >> other parts of the country are not shaman. they maybe a helper of the people, they maybe an herbist, they maybe a medicine person,

they maybe someone who is able to see things or devine illnesses or diagnose. i just find since it's so commonly used, i don't talk about it anymore. >> linda hogan, you write "in the woman that watches over the world." i myself am a failure at faith. [laughter] >> yeah. that's so funny. i was just writing about small things to do. i was faced with one of them. yes. faith and belief, i mean they are things that you -- they don't really help. they don't -- they help you feel better in the moment. but they don't really do anything. and you can have faith in anything. or belief in anything. and it doesn't have to be real. so i -- i place my claim, my bets on material reality.

on, you know, what's before me, what's truth, untruth, on the material world. and not the abstract. faith is very much an abstract. >> well, christianity is quite prevalent in a lot of your books. and the influence of christianity on the native -- on native americans. >> guest: yes, it is. >> host: why? >> guest: because it's been a -- and continues to be one of the colonizing forces. christianity has been one of the -- from the beginning it was save the soul, but don't worry about the body. it's already to kill an indian person, but you have to save their soul.

to this day, christianity, depending on where you live, some people are not christians. some people are southern baptist. in their -- you know, like -- in our area. a lot of people go to baptist churches. a lot of us. a lot of people in the pueblos are catholic. they mix tradition with catholicism. it depends on how it's used. but it has been one the worse colonizing forces, education and religion. used against indian people. >> the boarding schools. >> yeah. >> what was the effect? when did it happen? >> they actually were the source of christianity and education. and that happened, boy, in the 1900s. i think. but i actually think that probably there was something

similar to that in the 1800s as well. the late 1800s. that there was the beginning of schools at least for us before we were we moved, they were enchantments, so to speak, where they were educated and they were taught christianity. and christian beliefs and the idea of being christian, instead of being a heathen. >> host: another one of the recurring related themes in your work, linda hogan is neetive americans who crossed over in a sense and lived european lifestyles. >> guest: yes, it happens all the time. >> host: is that a bad thing? >> guest: i think it's a matter of choice. but i think that there's --

sometimes for people who have done that, there's belonging for home. there's a longing for what is lost to them. >> host: next call for linda hogan. memphis, tennessee, go ahead, back. >> caller: go ahead, linda. >> guest: hello. >> caller: one thing, i don't think you are doing justice to the general characterization of the chickasaw nation, most historians or a fair portion believe the chickasaw were about the most belligerent, warlike, and violent group of people who ever were in the eastern part of the united states. they were hardly a peace-loving group of people. not just against the europeans, but against the other people of

the southeast, and if there ever was a group of people about conquest, it was about the chickasaw. as a member of the nation, you have not done justice in presenting your tribe for what it was. and it's -- it's a bit disingenuous. you mean the general discussion about who the group of people was. >> host: linda hogan? >> guest: i never really said -- i mean i don't mean to do justice by saying we were violent. but during those time periods of the wars, all of the nations and ail of the tribes in the southeast were at war with each other because some had allied with the french, some had allied with the british, and it was whoever was giving them weapons

so they wouldn't have their families stolen by the other tribes and sold into the slave trade. and so we all fought with each other. we took in the -- there was fighting among many tribes at that time because -- they disappeared. but yes, we came known as the excellent marksman and when the french left fighting the chickasaw. we had to save yourselves. so can the shocktau who were once our close allies and who are again and who took us in after removal by the way. and there was a slavery. i'm not misrepresenting. i haven't gone into debate about the history.

we were all violent. there was constant war. we had an eastern band that most people don't know about what went down to protect the british in south carolina from the french. and the shocktau tined with the french. they were getting their weapons from the french and shooting us. and the creek, i'm not sure who the creek were getting their weapons. there was a huge massacre which is why we took the survivors in. they kept their own culture, but lived with us. and so, yes, we were all violent at that time. does that answer your question? >> caller: -- >> host: well, we'll hope so.

you'll ask to ask it rhetorically. the caller is going. linda hogan, dealing with spiritual dwellings of the world. "the world that watches over the world." memoir, "mean spirit," "solar storms" "power," "and people of the whale." the caller ronnie, from north carolina, she has tweeted in a message. ms. hogan, what do people do to preserve heritage? indians still exist, mixed indians with nowhere to go. >> guest: well, if i recall, that would be in jamaica. i believe that probably the majority of arawak are mixed with black jamaicans. and probably do not have a land

base. and i don't know, i have no answer for what they would do to preserve to create one -- to create their own nation. >> host: well, let's take that question a little bit more broadly. how do you preserve heritage? how do you chickasaw preserve heritage? >> guest: you know, interestingly enough, i think that probably our dancers and singers are the ones who most significantly preserve the heritage. and feel the strongest -- the traditions. that are there. because it was against the law until 1978, actually, all religions were against american law until the american indian religious freedom act was passed. in a country that guarantees religious freedom, we were the

only ones who had none. and so -- but in talking to people and interviewing people, it seems to me that those who are serious about dancing, the traditional dances, and deeping up the traditional activities have done the best at preserving heritage. we also have a cultural center and search center that's just recently opened and then we have a press. we have writers that write for the press. and i'm working with -- i'll be working with another press with the book that i'm working on. it's definitely a book on preserving culture and heritage and tradition. >> host: what's the significance in that tweeter brought it in as well between full blood and mixed? something you've also eluded to in a lot of your writing.

>> guest: well, at this particular point in my life, i don't think there's too much difference. because what you are is -- has to do with culture. and the intermarried people before the removal, even if it was a citizen that was white citizen say scottish, intermarried with some scottish, they were still forced over the trail of tears. by the time they got to indian territory they were no longer thinking of themselves as white people. they didn't -- they didn't at all. feel connected to the culture that sent them into such a situation. and so i think the difference is, you know, blood quantum, it's something that bia came up

with and most of us these days have mixed blood children, grandchildren, and, you know, or are mixed blood grandchildren and children. i have one daughter that's blond and one daughter that has black hair and dark skin. that's just genetics. but it's not cultural. >> host: who are jeannette and marie? >> guest: my daughters. >> host: where are they now? >> guest: my youngest daughter lives in north dakota at pine ridge off of the reservation. my oldest daughter is in colorado. and then i have quite a complex

family because i have adopted children. so my oldest adopted daughter has given up her children for adoption. and so the woman -- one woman who adopted them, i wanted to adopt my oldest granddaughter, my first granddaughter, and she adopted her. when i wrote "soulless storms" i dedicated to it. she read "solar storms." she said you don't know me, but i have danielle marie. we were so excited. there she is. danielle. >> host: taunya thunder horse? why do you call her jeannetfe in the book? >> guest: they made me change

the names. >> host: for legal reasons? >> guest: some things even though people agreed to were cut. >> host: all right. now your daughter is living up just like you said off of the boundaries of the reservation. >> guest: right, she uses indian health service hospital. she is -- she has lived on the reservation and the -- kathy that adopted danielle and marie, bless her heart, she works at two different places. she works in kyle also. and she's very hard working woman. >> when you wrote the "the woman that watches over the world" tell me if i'm right, seems as if there was a series of essays then you got into your family and it was maybe 180 to 100

pages straightforward almost biographical writing, autobiographical writing. after you went back into the essay form. is that -- was that a correct interpretation of how you wrote that book? >> guest: no, i don't think so. because it may have seemed that way. but i integrated native science into everything. for instance, when i wrote about my daughter, i think my daughter taunya was in the minerals chapter. i had elements. water, fire, minerals. so there's a scene where she in the middle of the night wants to go to a certain place and her does goes along with her. and it happens to be to the place that where the healing earth comes from. only instead of going to the church where people go, she actually goes to the place where

the earth came from. show doesn't know anything about it. we looked at the map. she went to the healing earth. she had to. she brought earth back with her. so i put in also mineral mountain stories that were written. letters written to a father in europe by a man who was writing about the traditions of people in the north and who was studying the minerals. so i tried to put in different kinds of knowledge in with everything. i tried to mix it all up. >> host: was it tough writing that family history?

>> guest: no, it wasn't tough. >> host: next call from window rock, arizona. >> guest: oh, window rock. >> caller: i teach navajo writers. i'm always marveled when they make grammatical errors in english, it's because they can't translate a concept from -- for example, there's no proknown for male and female. it's just a person. so they mix it up. they will say he or she when they mean the other. i was just wondering if there was a word in your language that's not translatable. that we need to add to the english dictionary. >> guest: yes. but first of all, just let me say that navajo language is the most complex language, i think, in the world. and the number of verbs are --

you have more verbs in navajo than we have in the entire english language. so the concepts aren't translatable, because they are more complex. so when i think about that, i think about how the mind works -- how the mind works with that much more language in it. and when you have different concepts and -- you cannot translate. you can't possibly -- that's why it's hard to get the thought systems to meet. because of the way of thought is so different. yes, we do have words like that. but i don't think they could fit in the english dictionaries, because it would be nice if we didn't have he/she. but we have words like for

animal it skipped my mind. i've been writing about it. let me go through another one. green and blue are the same word. [inaudible] >> guest: it means when you take it apart, it means south flowing and life force also. it really comes from a river system. and the colors do too. and when i was on the mississippi river in a canoe, i realized really where that word came from and what it meant. the -- [inaudible] >> guest: the world for green and also the word for blue comes from the river itself. it contains ecological and environmental knowledge. and the other word that i was trying to think of is [inaudible] which is the word for animal. which means all alive. and i like that.

i like that very much. thinking about just animals are all alive. >> host: tell us about the town of tisimingo. >> guest: tishimingo, it's a dusty, dry, hot, small town. there's one main street. there's the chickasaw capitol building, and there's a dairy queen and a sooners. [laughter] >> guest: and a -- what do you call that? sonic, where you drive through. most people if they go out on a date, they go to the dairy queen where they can sit down and talk. >> host: where is the town of gene aughtry, oklahoma. >> guest: it's west of there. >> host: how did that name come about? >> guest: gene bought land there. i think people had the hopes he

was going to put money into the town and might it a bright shining town as it had been in the past. before that it was berwin and before that it was named lou, one of my great aunts. it's a town of many names. >> host: it's in the chickasaw nation? >> guest: yes. >> host: what's the thought of one the most famous hollywood cowboys being named after a town? >> guest: nobody thinks about it. there are just so many strange names there. and many towns are named after people, you know, wives, somebody named it after their wife. it's just -- i don't think anybody has ever given any thought to it. >> host: have you given any thought to the fact that that is the u.s.' independence day weekend that you are doing this program? >> guest: yes, i have. i have. >> host: what was your thought? >> guest: well, we thought against the americans.

because we were working with the british. so it's kind of a problem. [laughter] >> host: next call for linda hogan. connie in massachusetts, thanks for holding. you are on booktv. >> caller: hi, linda. i think i may have gone to school with you, three million years ago. >> guest: hi, connie. >> caller: hi. >> host: did you go to the university of colorado, connie? >> guest: in colorado springs. >> caller: oh my gosh, connie. hi. hi, how are you, hon? >> caller: i'm fine. how are you? it's weird to be living and teaches at amherst college, named after lord jeffrey amherst. as you remember when we found out about the blain ets for land story, i was really horrifying. buffy st. marie sang a song.

that's not my question. my question is you've written so many wonderful what you would call nonfiction books filled with all sorts of just amazing information. and stories. what was it about the novel that grabbed yousome >> guest: well l -- i started out as a poet. and i went to the novel because i couldn't tell certain stories in poetry. i didn't have have -- it was the wrong tomorrow form. so i had to make up the form of the novel. and i really love writing novels. i'm working on one now as well as doing my other research and i have a new book, "indios" coming out this october. which is from a new press that i haven't been with before, wings press, in texas. but they are doing a beautiful job. it's going to be a small hard cover book. it's a performance piece. which is right along your lines.

and long poems, both. narrative poem in four parts. >> host: connie are you still with us? >> caller: i am. >> host: hang on. >> guest: i know, connie, i have questions for you. where have you been all of these years? >> caller: i'm teaching a amherst. i'm a career playwright. >> guest: i know. we both got gooken humans in the same here. -- guggenheims in the same year. >> host: okay. do you know if her books are used in creative language classes. > caller: yes, i check to see what people are buying. they are. >> guest: thank you. let's do keep in touch.

>> host: linda, do you have a web site for her to get ahold of me. maybe she could leave her information or i'll write amherst. >> host: if you have a web site, can people contact you? >> guest: they can. i'm also on facebook, connie. >> host: all right. you talked about your poetry. one of your books of poetry was the "book of medicines" it was nominated or finalist for the national book critics circle award in 1993. this poem is called the history of red. and i just want to read one section of it. i want you to tell us what the poem is about. going to read one small section of it. red is the fear that turns a knife back against men, holds it at their throats, and they cannot see the claw on their

handle. the animal hand that haunts them from some place inside their blood. first of all, tell us about the poem, the history of red. >> guest: well, it's really hard to talk about and paraphrase a section of a poem or even a poem really. but the poem is about being native. it's about war. it's also hunting, you know, with blood. just this long history of, you know, all of the meanings of the word red. also the knife that even in thee

-- you know, even in combat. what we do to other people, we do to ourselves. what we do to animals, we do ourselves. so people who hunt for food and people who sports hunt to me are very different kinds of animals. and so i've lived in the country where people have had to hunt for food, shoot an elk, because they have to have the food. i also lived in a place now where there's a lot of sports hunting and people have trophied everywhere. and it's very different kind of way of living. anyway, there's throughout the whole book i think there's the turning things back upon yourself. there's what you put out in some

way returns. i think it's the first or second poem in the book. it's sort of like the main set up for what's going to follow. >> host: minnesota. go ahead, daniel. >> guest: it also has love. i forget that. hi, daniel. >> caller: this is daniel. i'm from duluth, minnesota originally. >> host: turn down the volume on your tv and go ahead. >> caller: i'm from duluth, minnesota originally. >> guest: duluth? >> caller: this is interesting. i know i've had war -- my dad was one the most decorated heros of war. my an ancestors are way back. it goes up to the oregon trial.

as far as that goes, my native blood is like the genealogy, and a lot of the grace carries me on and knowing what right and wrong as far as a positive aspect. that is what the knowledge and where the extinction comes. i feel there's a lot to it as far as where my ancestors came from. the nativeness, as far as who -- and the indians, they had a battle outside of there. as far as my native blood and ancestors being there another the time, all of my first cousins are peal -- pale faced.

i know they did inbred back then. >> guest: are you navi? >> caller: no. >> host: all right. we're going to leave the dependent comments. anything that you want to add? : >> guest: became translators because, um, other translators would lie.

and so we, we really needed the intermarried white citizens to be a part of us so that we could have honest people who were really looking out for us. and then, then we had a great emphasis on education at that time for that reason so that when we saw a treaty and read treaties and things that the government presented us which was often and numerous, we could get through it and have intelligent responses. >> host: linda hogan, here are some of her major works including "dwellings," "the woman who watches over the world: a native memoir," "solar storms," "power," and "people of the whale."

recently, booktv visited linda hogan at her home, and here's what we saw. >> guest: so this is the meditation room. [laughter] in my house. actually, this is the office, and my computer is kind of hidden by some water color and artwork that got wet in recent -- we had a broken pipe, and it flooded this room and the bathroom, and the rug's been cut out. and i'm actually starting to like the concrete floor, so i may stay with it. it looks kind of quaint. i've been doing my best trying to put some of the things in order, and, um, but there are papers everywhere, and it's really hard. this is an office that i usually work in, and it has my printer, and i like the window, and my horse often comes up to the window, so it's kind of

intimate, you know, an intimate place to work. but for right now it's not in working order. well, this is my dining room table disguised as a desk, or my desk disguised as a dining room table, i should say, because i write everywhere in the house, and i do different projects in different places. these are my research books. i use different ones for different things, but sometimes they start to merge together like this started out, you know, being my chickasaw journal, and now it's full. and i'm doing research on history and archaeology, and this is how i work. and, um, i like to work by hand. i always work by hand first, and then i type it in. i really wanted to become a writer after i discovered poetry, um, wasn't just written by, you know, people who rhymed and were, you know, edgar allen

poe and the old poets. and i, when i was married, my husband was given a poetry, a gift of poetry, um, and a book, and i read it, and i was very excited about the book. and i started writing poems just in my spare time, and it was a magical experience, the feeling of writing a poem was wonderful for me. then i finally went back to school, and i took creative writing classes, then i took working class literature which i could relate to because it comig from a family that wasn't a middle class family that, you know, was really a family of poverty. and so when i read working class literature, i thought, oh, you know, there is a place for, um, the kind of writing we do. and then i read faulkner, and he had the chickasaw in there.

and i thought, well, if faulkner can write about chickasaws, i should be doing it. >> you can find out about upcoming booktv weekend programs like "in depth" by using your mobile phone. simply text the word "book" to 99702 to receive a weekly e-mail about our schedule, and sign up now for a chance to receive a signed copy of linda hogan's book, "people of the whale." standard messaging and data rates apply. ♪

>> host: linda hogan, you told us that you are currently reading a book called "the ragged edge of the world" by eugene linden. what is that book about? >> guest: it's about the borders, i'm trying to think of what it's about. it's a really hard book to read. the borders where, um -- i guess i could say it's about environmental justice. >> host: and -- >> guest: but it's also about his career as a journalist and all of the places that he's visited in the world and, um, the things that he's witnessed and, um, the changes that he has seen over time. >> host: why is it a hard book to read? >> guest: um, it's deep. [laughter] it's deep. it's complex material. >> host: and you're currently

reading barbara kingsolver's "the lacuna." >> guest: i finished it. >> host: all right. what's the topic? what's it about? >> >> guest: it's about america and during the mccarthy era. >> host: linda hogan is our guest this month on "in depth." 202-624-1111 if you live in the east or central time zone and would like to talk with her. 202-624-1115 if you live in the mountain or pacific time zone. you can also send us an e-mail, booktv@cspan.org or a tweet it's at booktv is our handle. send in a tweeted question to author and poet linda hogan. as we continue to take your calls, stillwater, oklahoma, trevor. you're on the line with linda hogan from stillwater. go ahead. >> caller: good afternoon,

ms. hogan. i apologize, i'm excited and really nervous to be speaking with you today. my question -- >> host: hi, trevor. that's all right. >> caller: hi. [laughter] i'm quite giddy. your novel, "power," it changed the trajectory of what i was studying in university, and that's actually why i'm in stillwater now. and my question was about, it's a twofold question. i wanted you to go in depth a little bit if you would or could about the end by gram to that novel, mystery as a form of power, and maybe also to tell me because this is a curiosity i have a bit more of what happens to amah. >> host: trevor, before we get the answer, could you tell us how it changed the directory of what you're studying? where are you studying now? >> caller: sure, absolutely. i was an undergraduate english major. um, i had, i was really changing

a lot of things about myself, getting rid of destructive habits, and amazon kept recommending this novel. and i didn't want to read it because it's about this panther getting shot. and i finally did, and i fell in love with it. and then i started a master's degree working with native american literature and its intersection with science, and so i'll start my ph.d. at oklahoma state university next month in native american studies. so before it was just strictly british literature for me, and so it really, it changed. >> host: all right, trevor. thank you very much. linda hogan, the epigram -- well, if you want to comment on what trevor -- >> guest: that's good. i'll probably see you at some conferences in the future, and you can introduce yourself. well, the book, because the book

is about different kinds of power that can't be explained always, i just said mystery was a form of power because it is. because there's mystery holds, holds, you know, it holds -- has a great hold on our lives. it directs us. mystery is something that, um, changes people, that moves them, that drives them, that has them given to belief systems to do to anything which is what happens in the book. all of those things. so, um, it became the first thing i wrote in the book because it was the only way i could explain the whole book, really, of -- which is a book of mystery and power. and who holds mysteries and who

holds power. >> host: and his second question, what happens to omah? >> guest: what happens to amah? um, well, you know, every time i watch a film i always want a different ending, i always think the film goes on beyond the ending. but really amah is, she's shunneds which is a form of punishment. but she's not shunned forever because she has done something really that only two people know was, um, not an evil deed. but to other people what she did with the panther seems like a crime. >> host: karen hue bear e-mails in to you, you mentioned having a brain injury and that writing may have helped you in healing. would you please talk about your writing process and how that

process may be aiding your brain in healing. thank you. >> guest: well, one of the things i wanted to do at the chickasaw nation was to work with veterans who were having, who had brain injuries that were coming back from iraq and, um, afghanistan that had brain injuries and doing creative writing. and it hasn't really taken off. i've been, i've worked on it, but it just didn't happen. but there's something about the writing process which is, as i've said before, i think almost a form of magic. but it, you form synapses because you, the creative process, the whole notion is something that happens that can't be -- it's like a mystery too, and it's also a form of power. but it, you create pathways in the brain that wouldn't have been there before, that suddenly

something comes to you because you have words in this a line, or you have words or concepts together. and it changes how you think. and so for me i think that doing writing during that time, it was probably not good writing, but at least it was part of the process of healing for me. and that it may not have happened, i may not have done as well as i did if i hadn't been writing. >> host: another e-mail, this from a woman, jackie st. joan, is her name. linda was my mentor at the university of colorado where the other students and i had the benefit of writing workshops with her, being guests in her mountain home and most importantly, gaining access to her amazing mind. i write to ohioan her as a -- honor her as a wonderful and generous teacher. my question: how does your spiritual life affect your writing life, and can you give

an overview of your movement as a writing from poetry to the wide range of work you create today? >> guest: hi, jackie. [laughter] i remember you. um, i hope you're doing well and, um, i think about those days. they were wonderful, those days teaching creative writing. i wanted to go back into creative writing and went back into ethnic studies later. but anyways, i went from poetry, i love poetry. i always say it's my first language, that it's really the thing i like to do the most. and i write poetry all the time. i keep doing it. no matter what else i'm working on. but i felt that i had to make a different, different kinds of statements and different kinds of ways of putting words together so that they would do different things. for instance, there are novels

that are stories, poetry's like a weaving where fiction is like, you know, you do character development. you show change. it's more linear. you have to have plot, you have to have all these developments that take place. so i needed to teach myself how to do that, and then, um, essays. i find, i'm working on some now besides the essays on our histories. but i'm finding that, you know, that when i do essays, it's a different way of thinking. it's like, um, how do i put together two different notions so that they fit and bring in a topic that, um, put together a topic that will work together as one piece even though it has disparate parts?

and so i like doing them. it's fascinating. it's a really fascinating process. but it's hard work. and poetry's hard work. and fiction is hard work. it all is. but i still love doing it. >> host: what about the spiritual life affecting your writing life? >> guest: oh, yes. that's it. it does. my ancestors actually speak through me, i think, and, um, the earth is part of my writing. and so my spiritual life very much affects my writing life. >> host: carol woodward tweets in to you, linda hogan, linda, how are your works received by your nation's people? any feedback from your fellow citizens? >> guest: well, to tell you the truth, um, chickasaws are, the chickasaw people i work with are really happy to have me there, and, um, the governor brought me

home, he asked what he had to do to bring me in. and so the governor of the nation. the chickasaw nation. and so i said, well, do you need a writer in residence, and he said, yes, and so i changed jobs pretty quickly. and, um, so i will say that probably the majority of people haven't really read my booksment but -- books, but still are happy to have me around doing the things i'm doing and working on, um, our own histories and our own, you know, our own projects. >> host: what does being a pulitzer finalist do to book sales? >> guest: nothing. >> host: nothing? >> guest: nothing. no. i'm a mid-list writer, and my book sales are pretty low even though i'm really read, i'm more -- i'm read more in other countries. >> host: you sell more books in if other countries? >> >> guest: uh-huh.

>> host: why? >> guest: they read me. >> host: do you have any idea why? >> guest: they love -- i don't know. they love the work. i travel all the time to other countries, you know? i'm in taiwan or norway or turkey or someplace, and i'm always getting offers to go to other places. but they know my books, they read them, and they know my work. and, um, but my book sales are not, not what they could have been, not what they might have been in my life. >> host: linda hogan, are your books used -- and we talked to connie from the ham best a -- amherst a little bit about this -- but do you know if your books are used for teaching? high schools? >> guest: yes, they are. they're used in classrooms all the time. i'm actually doing classes in wisconsin where they've used the book for four years, and i go visit. so, yes, they are used in classes. i don't know why exactly they show no sales, but -- [laughter]

i sign them, so i know that people aren't giving them up. so, but the sales don't really show up on my royalty statements. >> host: david in tucson, arizona. good afternoon, thanks for holding. >> caller: hello, ms. hogan, i'm a member of the mission. i was going to ask you, you're a poet only because i attended the 25th annual -- [inaudible] at the university of arizona, and i listened to some of the native women who do poetry. so would you share some of your poetry on the air? so, again, i will be looking if for your book -- for your book here in tucson. >> host: all right, david, thank you. now, linda hogan, we read just a very small portion of your poem, "the history of red." but if david wanted to see some of your poetry, do you know where it is online? is some of it on your web site?

is. >> guest: yes. some of it's on the web site, and as soon as i am home and have things in order a little bit, um, it will be on universe. but i think you can probably just look for linda hogan poems online and find some. >> host: elizabeth from philadelphia e-mails in: which native american writers do you admire? also which writers, native american or others, have influenced your writing the most? >> guest: well, i really like leslie so kohl's garden of the dunes, it's an impressive, amazing book. i've used it, i use it in classes. um, i'm interested in, i'm interested in maybe literature from long ago up until the present, so i'm, you know,

keeping, trying to keep up with everybody's work. um, which is really hard because there are so many new writers coming out all the time, and i can't keep up. but, um, "garden of the dunes," i have to say is one of my favorites. i think "tracks" is an incredible book. um, well, i have my friends, all my friends i love their work, you know, deborah hedge, miranda hitchcock, you know, eric gainsworth, you know, there are all kinds of writers who we know each other, and they're excellent writers. so, but i think when it comes to, you know, who influences me the most it would be probably the ones that i've named. and darcy mcnick old from, he was turn of the century

flathead. some of the writers who are also very capable of saying little with, saying a lot with few words, um. scott momaday has a brilliant novel, very difficult. took me three tries to get into it. so those are -- and they are, those are fairly well known writers. but most of us aren't, you know, the thing is that there are some -- it's a world of token writers that you hear about a few, and there's only room for a few. it's like when -- it's like applying for a job and saying, oh, we already hired an indian, you know? it's not like whether you're a writer or not. it's like, oh, we're not thinking of you as a professional, we're thinking of you as an ethnic whatever. and, um, it's the same way in

the writing world. it's like, oh, we've already got our, you know, our token writers. and so the other many good writers go unseen, unheard. >> host: linda hogan, you've used both the terms "native" and "indian." what's the current thinking on the use of "indian" as a term to describe native americans? >> i don't think any of us care too much. indigenous, tribal, you know, i just intersperse them wherever. [laughter] >> host: are, are tribes important? >> guest: what do you mean? >> host: is the allegiance to a tribe very important more so than, perhaps -- does that question make sense? >> guest: well, yes.

it's like whether you're italian or german. >> host: right. and is it, is it more important or about at that same level? >> guest: more important than being italian and german? >> host: no, no. more important to native americans, their tribal connection. as opposed to, you know, white americans being from scotland or norway or -- >> guest: well, i think so, yes. i mean, it's a country. we belong to the, we belong to a nation. and so, um, and it's one that's still there functioning. you know, we haven't left it. and we can't leave it. i mean, it's who we are. >> host: this e-mail from ricardo from texas, how hard was it to get published for the first time?