>> guest: my first book. >> host: at "the living constitution," "the living constitution" -- david strauss, "the living constitution." teaching at the university of chicago. >> what are you reading this summer? book tv wants to know. ♪ ♪ >> send us that we @booktv to let us know what you plan on reading. you can also e-mail us. book tv at c-span.org. >> next on book tv jeff guinn presents the history of the gunfight at the o.k. corral which occurred on t h in tombstone, arizona. this is about 48 minutes.

>> good evening, and welcome to the arizona historical society. and the director of publications and at a tour of the journal of arizona history. we're here this evening to welcome jeff guinn, the author of the last gunfight, there really -- the real story of this you out of the okay corral and have a chance the american west. jeff is the former book previewed editor for the star-telegram and also the author of the recent bestseller, go down together, that's true untold story of bonnie and clyde. welcome. i would like to start out the conversation this evening with the question that combine short, is on everyone's mind in this room. there are basically three iconic events in the history of the west of the imagination. one of them is custer's last stand and the other is the alamo and certainly the third is the gunfight at the o.k. corral.

the question is why. do we really need another book about the gunfight at that o.k. corral? >> there is evidence for why we need another book on the gunfight at the o.k. corral. the reviews that appeared about the book so far is they have been written by critics who don't consider themselves experts in the subject of tinstone are the gun fight or the american frontier. all are claiming that it is a book of revisionist history by which they mean is just shocking to them that these things in the book are actually fact. one reviewer said he was stunned to learn that the battle did not actually occur in the o.k. corral but in a vacant lot some yards away. i think we can thank bill breckinridge and stuart lake and some others for that. i think trying to write letter about the gunfight at the vacant

lot near, but not at the o.k. corral doesn't have the same ring throughout history. [laughter] people also seem to be as honest that is that talking about cardboard cutout participants we are talking about really human beings, men of their time you had good quality sense and loss. everyone seems staggered by the fact that simpson might have been something other than a dusty little desert hamlet. the fact that there are so many intelligent readers who would certainly say truthfully they carry a great deal about history , don't know these very basic things, let alone the complexities of the place in the time, that is why we need another book about tombstone and the o.k. corral. >> i would like to speak back under the baton comment. i have lived in arizona for almost 35 years. i spent a lot of time and

tombstone. i spent the pleasure of reading your book and manuscript and reading the book this week. it stuck me as i was reading it. very difficult for any of us here know today to imagine 1881. such an important part of the context of what happened there on edge over 26 to 1981. it would be helpful if you could tell us what kind of a town it was back then. >> well, i am willing to bet if i asked this audience who they thought my favorite character in my tombstone and o.k. corral cast was by the time i finish the book they might not guess it was the town of tombstone and self. it was such a vibrant place, sophisticated not just in terms of a mining boom town, but in terms of towns all around the country. it had shops that sold the kind of fashions that you would see on the streets of san francisco and the people there bought

them. gourmet restaurants where for a few dollars you could have a meal that would rival anything you might eat in new york city. theaters offering world-class entertainment. there were even a few telephones linking the mines to the minus is building. the town fathers are about to start debating putting in a sewer line on the main street of town. this is a place that simply is not giving it its proper credit in a lot of the film's and the essays and so forth today. it was much more than it is given credit for, just like the history of southeast arizona and the history of the american frontier is much greater than most people realize. >> the other important part of the backdrop is politics. at least, that is where they

know that today's politics is that the very least complex. we sometimes think that border issues are invaluable. yet, when you read your book i think you will discover first of all border issues go back as you can imagine. politics today don't have anything on what they were in 1881. if you could give us a little bit of an idea of the setting that they operated in it would be helpful to set the tone of the book. >> well, the border issue to begin with was very real, extended, and intense. it was certainly felt that trading between americans and mexicans was something you would want. and it's on both side of the border parade on merchants. there was certainly some cattle rustling being done. a lot of people tend to think it was one-sided. the cowboys faction would just run into mexico and raid

indiscriminately. the fact remains that there are mexican bandits who came north over the rio grande. it is fair to say that some of you are just back from the texas ranger museum in waco. it is a wonderful place, and they have lot of great history. if you read the reports about the wrestlers that the texas rangers are trying to drive out of texas, there are trying to drive them out because there were stealing mexican cattle. there was a great deal of discrimination against mexicans. texas and in the southwest. it was simply not consider that much of a crime to go down there. politically they're represented the republicans, the big businessmen of tombstone in the area who wanted law-and-order to be firmly in place. this because they thought that was the best way to attract outside investors.

at the same time a lot of the small ranchers who were not just represented by the clintons and the macquarie's, many southerners who had migrated west. wanting to get away from what they considered government oppression to be free to live their own lives as they chose. and we simply swiss the political parties arrive today. you can see that that beans remain with us as well as some of the ethnic prejudices. >> it may seem strange, but in reading this book something struck me that also struck me in reading your bonnie and clyde book. not just that it is about people, which it is, which makes it fascinating reading. family values play a big role in relationships play a big role in what occurs. i wonder if you could sort of

draw out some of their relationships that occurred, what the family manse in this story. people sometimes forget that the gun fight actually involve three sets of brothers. and what that added to the makes >> when you add on the frontier into prospecting, trying to run a business or ranch, everybody else in the area to a certain extent was a competitive. hard to know who you could trust to would not betray you, and for that reason family was so important. it was so critical. the herb brothers were desperately loyalties other. they loved each other. an insult to one was an attack on all of them. that is also true of the clintons and the mclaury. you tested your family.

you defended your family. sometimes you might be a little too prone to defend them. but these are the kinds of relationships that or importance out there in a place where you are struggling to create yourself, in the great words of fred , that fine historian. the frontier of the west was a place where men could still dream of becoming. part of that dream was having a family there with you. right or wrong to be at your side and always trusted. >> what relationships, almost defies belief. that two are such polar opposites. yet i think they identified what have occurred if this blesses it didn't exist. the relationship between wyatt earp and doc holliday, how do you explain that connection to back. >> i think speaking for everybody in the room who is a

writer and researcher who means, speaking for everybody in the room pretty much we all kind of live for those things you jesus moments when you think this explains it. one of the things that puzzled me is how is it that way in urban and doc holliday our friends? they absolutely should not be. trying to move up in the world by impressing his social superiors that he is as straight laced man who firmly believes in law-and-order. doc, let's face it,. all we know is there were a couple wrote general references in different origin that white said at some point, probably in died city to the doc holliday had done something to save his life.

there is some new material in this book of mine, often gathered by dumb luck rather than brilliance, no more so in evidence than in meeting a collector of memorabilia who lives up in massachusetts. he had in his possession the original mets taken by engineer john flood. he is interviewing him in one of his earlier attempts. these notes are fabulous for any number of reasons, if nothing else to match up with his writing in detail in these notes against what steward lakewood read some this letter. you can see that white is learning as he goes along the way to present certain things to have the greatest impact. but flood took copious notes on might hurt some explanation on how he became friends with doc

holliday. we were able to actually put that in the book. according to wyatt earp doc holliday, an acquaintance gamboling along main street worry intercepts texans are in town. celebrating a little too hard. that the texans determine there not going to be arrested and instead turn on earth. doc holliday, sitting in a saloon playing cards across the street sees this through a window, and thrust the game, borrows a gun, rushes on to the sidewalk, kits is the cowboys by surprise, and holds them at gunpoint while white can collect himself and make the arrest. white told john fled, from that moment i became the true and lifelong friend of doc holliday.

say what you will about either of these men, and people have a lot to say, they were faithful friends to each other and stuck with each other in times and circumstances where others would not have done that. that is a great attribute in anybody in this speaks well of wyatt earp and doc holliday. >> another fascinating character. i first came to this job. the great folklore. show me a letter that he received in the 1930's when he was working on the tombstone. word had gotten out that it was a biography. he received a letter from josephine saying that stuart lake had been a perfectly adequate job. she says that no further but be written about her husband. little did she suspects. but how does josephine paid into

this makes? >> the most fascinating thing is she was such a world class finaglers. it is hard to know, if anything see said was sure not. that is why see is some much fun. i think we can say in modern terms that this was a woman who required high maintenance. she was determined to control her husband's image, and she was willing to do whatever she had to to make that happen. there is a manuscript, the product of two young women relatives trying to pry and after the stuff out of the josephine that they can get a book published that parts of it have been sort of passed around

indy team study and research community. the originals are actually in a safe deposit box controlled by the ford county historical society in dodge city kansas. and i have gone up there and with the permission of the man who made the donation i have studied business trips and came away absolutely certain that josephine was as full of it. much of what you see in my book is gathered from other public records and documents. if it says it makes many of her statements looks somewhat questionable, macy were here right now she would be something in throwing herself on your mercy to be protected by samuel outsider like me that only wants to make white look at. just a thing like that.

when it comes to the fax she did not need anybody sell. i will say how wonderful writer named and kirschner is currently at work on a biography of josephine. she is braver than i am. i have great faith in her, and when her book comes out i hope you will snap it up, as i will. as you will find time short, some wonderful things that we will all learn a lot. >> the actual unfolding of the gunfight. step-by-step fashion. and in no way that seems both inevitable and the total accident if that makes sense. and you get to the final moment. what seems to me and zero crab moment. the same moment that i imagine pastor has when he got up on top of the ridge and saw what looked

like all these indians. or chavis when you realize nobody was coming to save him at the alamo. what does that. virgil says, hold, i don't mean that. what does that tell us about how this event happened to? >> i repeat that i think something was bound to happen whether it was going to involve the specific individuals or others. there was just too much tension and too much mistrust. james burke said later that he thought there was a certain amount of pressure put on virgil by some of the townspeople. if that hadn't happened, none of this would have occurred. i like virgil lot, and i ended up feeling sorry for him. i think he tried very hard to be a good lawman. in the eyes of average americans today began a fight at the o.k. corral and vilest wyatt earp,

doc holliday and the clanton. his scenes of virgil and morgan have been bumped into the background, as have tom and frank mccourt. birds a wanted to be a good lawman. very pragmatic about the way he enforce the law. he must prefer giving people a chance to back away without embarrassing than or having their private attacked. he did his best that date to lead the cowboys settled down and cried on out of town and finally felt forced to act. when he did he call on the people he tested most, his two brothers. then, of course, there was a doctor who would never miss an occasion like this. it was a terrible tragedy that this happen to. i think if things had happened differently in one or two instances in virgil had not been approached by a couple town leaders offering vigilantes' if white and tom have not had that,

if the cowboys walking through the okay corral really meaning to leave town but not wanting to leave too fast because they did one of the onlookers to think the arabs had back then down and made them leave. any number of things might have prevented this. even that being the case something similar might have happened. >> you might have assumed that they could easily walk away feeling there were heroes. that didn't happen. what does that tell us about tombstone? >> first of all, he said, i don't mean that. i think they collectively have a moment the day after the gunfight when instead of being recognized as euros, which there were sort of expecting you have 2,000 mourners turned out for the billy clinton and kerrey brother's funeral procession.

the tombstone leaders and when the leans forward. one of the popular thing is they don't think it is wrong to have a different opinion looking at the same set of facts. it is a kind of open mindedness that encourages discussion rather than arguments. i have learned some much. i think we all have. but what i thought i was talking about. hang on a second. it has been a long day. the town fathers did not consider the burps their equals. there were useful, tools that could do certain, functional things. after the gunfight as public opinion began to sway, sometimes looking like it was going against them, the town leaders and starting to think, we have a bunch of voters here who may not like the way this turned out. they are not supporting them.

there were disposable, like disposable razors. i think in time they came to resent that when they realized it. >> that means, and i want to quote this. you said his immediate legacy was limited to an uncomfortable memories of a minor functionary who ultimately overstepped himself, and particularly violent and regrettable ways. how do we get from that to hugh o'brien? [laughter] the way history has remembered, quite often is the way the general public decides it wants it to have been. at the turn of the 20th century there is great american interest, intensified american interesting frontier heroes. you have teddy roosevelt writing popular books about how great it is to be wrenching out of the west. is certain lifestyle. you have bat masterson reinventing himself as a journalist in the east and

writing magazine articles about the great heroes that he wrote with, including wyatt earp. the silent movies, the cowboy dramas that are presented. as we get into the depression it is a complicated, scary time. we want to think not long ago in our history things were simpler. if there was evil. got out its gun and eradicated. from there we get the talkies. we get the movies of the 40's and 50's's. for some of us are old enough to remember, as you remember, every second tv show was a black and white cowboy trauma. gosh, i wanted to be the lone ranger. it was simply an evolution of what we wanted to believe happened. wyatt earp is first presented by bat masterson and then the movies. don't forget, for a while tombstone was almost more

popular in the movies and wyatt earp. threatening lawsuits, her idea is selling this image, this scene where he tried to duck behind something when someone was shooting at them. it to josephine he would never have ducked. it grew. it grew because it was what so many people wanted to believe. the sad thing is, the truth, the way he really was, that not as a saint or a career criminal, not the best of the western lawman, not every bit as bad as the cochise county cowboys. when we realize someone is an actual human being and not a cardboard cutout, when that person becomes real then the history becomes real. and don't all of this year, each

in our own way think it is importance to use the facts rather than the fiction? because the facts, when presented with enthusiasm, with context, almost inevitably are better than the myth. >> well, you can't get away with some calling that something changed the american west, and particularly with this is a 302nd gunfight without explaining what she means. i have to call you on the subtitle. >> call me what? sorry, i always wanted to say something. i think what happened at the o.k. corral had to specific changes. one's short-term, one less dramatic than the other. it is surprising so many readers and viewers already been after the gunfight the herbs and doc holliday are put into a hearing

to determine whether they should be tried for murder. wyatt and dock and their companions are indicted for murder. this is a message that in the american west lawman will have to answer in court for their actions as if there were not legal man claiming to avenge can't take the law into their own hands. the greater weight changed was the perception of the american west. today we don't go weeks without some politician who has won a close election, a football coach whose teams beat up a one. when you will saying it was just like being in the o.k. corral. his become part of our national

vocabulary. people use it to demonstrate that the west, that the frontier was as simple black-and-white place. it wasn't. the history is so rich, so complex, so multi dimensional that it was given short shrift. i think the more we write books, and mine is not the only one. wasn't the first and will not be the last. it tried to give context to help readers understand things that really happened. the benefit is greater understanding. what is the sense in writing a book 31i learned some much writing this book. i hope that some readers when they read it will want to and no more and turn to the work of

others. if that happens i was saying it was something that contributed to a change that needs to come. >> many of us in this from realize that on this particular topic research can be a full context board. it is kind of surprising to reach and you say we ought to be a family of historians. what to you mean by that? >> first of all, i don't think families always get along, but i do think that we all have to realize that is not someone said any of us compete with each other as in the best sense we ought to be complimenting each other. the last gunfight is a book with my name on it. i hope i wrote it well. i spend a couple years of full-time research going all over the country trying to find new things, ferret things out, bring new conclusions and

concepts. none of us look like this. outstanding on the shoulders, al standing along side of the people who have been doing great and honorable and often unrecognized work. yet without these people, people like me don't write our books and all. i think it is only appropriate, but to kill the with some of the folks in this room to speak to that as a way to close down this part of our program. i am sitting appear, but i am also sitting beside so many people. when you talk about those two unselfishly research, devote themselves to trying to learn things that help the rest of us understand better, and there are folks in this room. tom gardner who keeps a -- keep laughing.

he also keeps sharing his research. scatback let me on a wonderful walk through the desert were accidently set on barbwire. when i think of scat now i think of him with gratitude for its contributions to my book and some of the puncture marks in my butt. [laughter] bob palm quest, the only man who could possibly help me understand some of the intricacies of frontage along. jim turner who helped me track down an army lieutenant and never asked why it mattered because once these are looking he addresses himself. the thrill of the chase. lynn bailey. he knows more about the history of this area that glenn bailey? of his work is so much tests. kevin and then, owners of one of

the greatest collections of western memorabilia in this country. they share it and selfishly with anyone who asks. there are people who are here tonight in our hearts, our books. gary roberts. i am writing this book. i met him. he makes a thank you, jesus, discovery. an original newspaper article showing that after wyatt earp was arrested for a horse that he did not walk away on bail, as we thought but he broke out of jail and was technically a felon for the rest of his life. kerry called me up one day and seven of your writing this book, and that think this is interesting. let me send you the article. use it in your book. think about that kind of generosity. paul cool, and mark sporkin, and collier who when i met her being

such a shy, timid and lady her first remarks, if we're doing all the work why you write the book. [laughter] [laughter] and you think you ask tough questions. paul hutton. a great lady in texas in as more about frontier women and their roles than anybody i've ever seen. bob mccammon, even though he tries to the freezing the picture of doc holliday. i still grateful. jeff mori. a man who is so generous with his knowledge and is that it half the credit reserves. fred nolan, ben shrek to the first time at him, said to me out of your everything you need to know and then proceeded to tell me he had a wonderful sale and i did have this tech further $100 for today only. he was still grinning when he pocketed by check.

brave men sierra who has researched so much property in tombstone ferreting out who really on the west, who paid what, what the taxes were. bob alexander, johnny began. a great example of how you can disagree with someone into a pleasantly. jim donovan who is doing a wonderful book about the alamo. other of this. a special man still has not met but i am grateful to have. bill showing bird. two people that all of us should recognize for their contributions to our knowledge even though there is controversy involving them, maybe deservedly. tonight less discredit them for the things they've given us. carl sagan and clan where.

some of the people who contribute most of those who don't necessarily do the research or writing themselves but do the things that make it possible for the rest of us. when i met bruce i wanted him to read my manuscript because i knew he would give me a fair and objective opinion of what i was doing well and what i needed to do better. there is a special woman and kristine roads. under her direction the cochise county recorder's office is a place where anybody ought to start if you're trying to do this research. i think i have learned from all of these folks, and it is a gesture towards that. i am contributing all of my research materials, all my notes , interview transcripts, document copies, everything that went in to this book to the arizona historical society says that the next person who wants to write a book on this topic will have immediate access to

everything i had. [applause] [applause] here is what i like you to apply because it is appropriate. i am making this contribution in honor of bruising is an kristine roads. [applause] [applause] >> thank you. >> about to say one more thing. the last unsung hero. a great friend of readers and writers, bob pugh. [applause] [applause] the conclusion. i did not write a book without everybody else's help. let's all work together. when we do that i think everybody benefits, most of all the people in need to know the things in the history that we believe is so important. thank you.

>> that is a nice place to wrap it up. we have a little time for questions. what i ask you to do is come up to the microphone. i will pass this up. please keep the question brief and to the point so that everybody is a chance. >> you first. didn't valley herb say that wyatt earp was up riding stages instead of keeping law and order? and who killed johnny ringo? >> to planted this woman? answer to the first one, there is a great deal of question whether she said many of the things that frank waters reported a she said. i think probably there were some tensions.

the waters exaggerate? i also think that is a fact. i frankly don't trust what waters wrote and can't rely on it. who killed john ring up? somebody. [laughter] maybe even john ring go himself. a little mystery in history is okay. >> not impression there was never a legal marriage between white and josephine. >> a lot of marriages were of the common lot variety. frankly all the power lay with man than with the woman when somebody get tired of it. it was dissolved. there was no legal basis for it.

quiet, i believe, was married once in his use. i think there were, in between her and josephine to others. when i say he is her husband i am using that in the accepted sense in the frontier were a couple would enter into a common law relationship. you are certainly correct that i don't believe there was a legal union. yes. you, stranger. >> you look familiar. do you have a favorite movie about the gunfight? can you comment on some of the strengths and weaknesses in the various movies to more recent and older? >> actually, my favorite o.k. corral film is the star trek episode. [laughter] i think all the films that have been made and have been popular have some entertainment value. i think more recently the film

tombstone tried to stick a little bit closer to the facts than the white urban town, but that is a personal feeling. as to whether there has been a firm that stuck to the facts and try to show that this was more interesting and entertaining and apology to my can name one yet, but i can think of a great candidate somewhere down the road. yes, sir. >> you mentioned the politics at that time. did that extends to the newspapers? if so, which was and what side? >> thank you for that question which we can answer without anyone arguing. the political tensions were carried out in print and certainly contributed a great deal to the hostile atmosphere between the two political parties. i will say that a lot of people thought that was the right politics to be played then and now.

of course you tried to use innuendo and slurs. why wouldn't you? one more and then we will close zero. yes. >> congratulations on an excellent book. after all your research and all of this telling into everything i want to know what you think of wyatt earp. another author has said he shaded the world all of his life. after eat all your research, what do you think of the guy? >> i think he was a man of his time. in those times when men trying to make a living, trying to establish some cells, operated someone on both sides of the law. i do not think he was a saint, i do not think he was evil. i think he was like all of us come of flawed human being who

made some good decisions and plenty of bad ones. i did not in any way find myself disliking him. i don't find myself wanting to put up enough of him on my wall. i'll tell you this. he was a damn interesting man. >> thank you, jeff. thank you all. jeff is exhausted to mob but he would be glad to sign books at that table and are available for purchase of a there. also, we have -- this does not come out very often. we have our collection of memorabilia, pistols, bibles, badge, wedding ring on display. it will go back into the vault right after this. so take time to look at that. again, thank you. you have a treat in store when you read this book. >> thanks for coming, everybody. [applause] [applause]

>> that was jeff guinn in an event hosted by the arizona history museum in tucson. for more information visit arizona historical society website. >> the book is subtitled "johnny appleseed: the man, the myth, and the american story" because i hope i think and adequately show that the myth of "johnny appleseed" keeps getting reinvented. in the late 1800's and early 1900's he was a symbol of american innocence, time before civil war ravaged the land, will for native americans had been driven on to dismal reservations and western expansion and swept away the supposed begin this country had been. two decades later after the women's temperance union later waste and hard cider he reemerged. in the mid 1900 s the disney studio turned into a sermon on

brotherly love and unselfishness. advertisements in the 1950's and 60's praised his financial shrewdness. oddly enough sense is real finances are often a complete mess. by the mid 1970's so-called johnny appleseeds of pot were blithely or apple and -- of the riots plodding around the countryside. the phrase johnny appleseed of possible so get you something like 10,000 hits on googol. and so this continues into our own time. might distinctly modern interest in conserving and preserving this wonderful creation we have been handed. two centuries before there was a simplicity movement there was the lifestyle that was simplicity itself, a level of consumption that would drive in national economy back to a barter system. snuff the occasional tool, are rare tavern mayo, a night in

their rented room, and books. that is all the resources. and the bucks' lead this recycled. he barely touched the land. the gift to be simple. that gift to come down a yacht to be. and when we find ourselves in now place just right we will be in the valley of love and delight. could there be a better 42 word summary of his life? long before all but a handful of people. chapman and apple see where they're calling nature as if he were a newborn baby. that might be the greatest. scripture urging him on. all things in the world exist from divine origin closed with such forms of nature as enable them to exist there and protect their use