other than the confederates in missouri than the each, the general was sick in bed with typhoid fever, his army stalemated inspiring longes' comment if general mcclean lain didn't want to use the army, maybe he could borrow it for awhile. if something was not done soon, he confided the bottom would be out of the whole affair. ..

the. >> abraham lincoln wired to mclellan destroy the rebel army if possible pro two days later after a battle widely reported in the press, the commander in chief issued no congratulations that i have never seen but a few days later issued the "emancipation proclamation" and suspended writed of habeas corpus began nagging to go into action and wrote to this amazing letter to the quaker leader confiding his belief america was going

great a fiery trial and as he had a wide profit -- process and unknown by tonight with the crossroads of freedom from it antietam the battle but changed america with federal turning points, the battle of antietam was up -- pivotal moment of the most crucial of them all and the young napoleon described as the opportunity of a lifetime for the general a union alike that mclellan squandered by using the inner composure and with that the courage to command under the press of combat. strong words of the extraordinary moment and we would like to drill down to

the unresolved questions what was lost and what was gained 1862. back of first things serve looking up in the spring shiloh in the west driving of the merrimack and disaster at manassas but before at antietam there was another campaign her brain drain a brilliant plan that have a reasonable chance on the mclellan side he very much thought the war would be over in the famous letter to linkdin day shoreham linkdin he was an good general in chief was

expecting to write a letter from richmond and is very optimistic almost coming out almost overnight the successful defender of the confederacy, was the eighth giant that was allowed to slumber to loan because of davis? >> gettelfinger so because the experience of lee was day succession of failures after he mobilized to the troops then the confederacy when virginia finally did joined, he had been sent out to do with the problem in the western part of virginia which became western virginia where mclellan had overseen the successful union occupation of much of

that is set out to western virginia to recover the area august of 1861 and every effort he made turned out to be a failure hall came under the criticism men than the charleston and lee had to try to do with what would be the consequence of that and gave orders to pull back of the coastline that was seen

as another major retreat. it is not that lee was a sleeping giant whose talents are not recognized but have not succeeded. he was called back to become military advisor to jefferson davis then began fashioning the confederate strategy of the counter offensive with stonewall jackson and then after he was wounded comment lee was given command he renamed the army of northern virginia that is when the greatness and the legend starts. what up until that time robert d. the did not have that. >> a successful counter

general defender of the capital as the march tore the fall of 1862. why does reach aubrey e. lee change the winning formula and decide to go on the offensive to margin to maryland? >> he did not have much choice. he could go in four directions he did not have the arms or the heavy artillery to be siege washington and then he will lead admit his offensive plan was to go west but he would lose the advantage so he and a going north where there was a lot of food and if they thought they would be able to mou res mayor lenders to join the talks

which was not true and could not stay still. >> but lee was the avid reader of northern newspapers and the dollar of politics and the elections were scheduled october and november 1862 and even wrote to that by invading maryland and infecting defeat on the potomac maybe to the scale of second manassas, he could influence that election and maybe democrats would control the house and force the link in administration to negotiate for peace. also remember the war takes place natalee in virginia but over the front of a thousand miles and the confederates were on the offensive in the western

theater lourdes those that were invading kentucky also also trying to raise that border state across the potomac river into maryland the first week of september, confederate soldiers were on the march elsewhere in the hope to negotiate. also lee personality, and character was never satisfied with remaining static and to seize and hold the initiative and zero ways to go on the offensive and to see that happening over and over again and is capable of doing that.

>> and with the state is very divided loyalty and had would have been defeated if left to its own devices, how do they react to the army of northern virginia? >> you have to remember the general and chief had a ban on the press. reporters are not supposed to go to the potomac and was happy with the press coverage it was all based on rumor and nothing was passed out about what was going on and so everybody they would tag after every soldier they could find what they thought

about the situation. i am sure there is a great deal of panic in philadelphia and harrisburg the governor was all upset because they were sure they would not be the target. >> if lee was able to invade maryland south of washington on the eastern shore, you would have made a favorable welcome because that was a broken part of maryland but the topography, geography, logis tics were such she could only cross the river of preferred and invade the western part of maryland which was strongly unionist. the reception in frederick in the western part was cool to the confederates especially and can't -- contrast to the tumultuous welcome for the army of atomic when they

reach into frederick september 13th. and rights to his wife to say he is being showered with praise and flowers by the local population. so clearly maryland was a divided state it was an invasion and the hope that by invading maryland they would liberate it from the heel from despotism that turned out to be hollow hope and expectation. >> we will get back to mrs. mclellan later because if you read the generals letters to her, which has been sued deeply edited for his volume of correspondence, leaving the lincoln administration preventing from giving him the credit that he deserved. let's talk for a moment as

we did with the issue back into the open and his here how 12,000 men and a great deal of our men. and this was in frederick. and then those two divided into four segments, stonewall jackson and those that completely surround "harper's" ferry and sent those out by a courier to all generals involved. the copy that went to stonewall jackson he read it and copied it again who had been under his orders.

one of the careers also was taking the same message and of course, it never arrived and we don't know why this have been your how it could have been prevented because of a career was supposed to develop-- deliver the envelope but the signature buyback to the headquarters but it did not go. my own theory is he discovered he lost it, went to headquarters to ask around. he felt much relieved presumably and nobody seems to get proof of delivery.

and the indiana and regimented and found this envelope and read the message in he was smart enough to realize all the names and places this is important so kick did upstairs through the regimented and went to a brigade then skipped a few levels because each person sought it and went of through headquarters and from there general williams was in charge sent a note to general maclaren saying it looks to tempore tinted we believe it is authentic and describes very briefly how it was found. by noon, mclellan had the order and to take the next

up, while he had several people from the city of frederick to discuss the occupation and handed the dispatch and supposedly threw up his hands to say now i know what to do. but obviously was very much excited and dismissed all of the guests and off they went. one of them turned out to be a confederate sympathizer. i think he was a spy. but at the nikkei's he ran off and found a store and gave him this then finally it made its way to general lee.

a mad days amid the announcement but the question is how much did general lee no and when did he know it? >> the only thing that he learned as far as i can determine the something was going on that general mcclellan was excited about something and that is the story there. maybe jim can pick it up. >> the big question is the great debate that continues whether it was a sloppy career mistakes were the brilliant counter espionage section of the war that was supposed to throw off mclellan into it falsely comprehending these intentions but you think he would have been more aggressive and successful. what do think? counter espionage german

stakes that wasn't taken the advantage of? >> i am convinced a sloppy career and they were orders that were lost by the courier. there are two other dimensions. one is serious and the other not so serious so why did they wait so long before giving orders to different general's especially william of franklin? those orders went out to franklin at 6:00 that evening and mclellan did express a certain amount of urgency and the orders because it was the task which was under siege by 25,000 confederates under the overall command of jackson to come to the aid

of the garrison "harper's" ferry by driving away the procedures. but he did not get started until 6:00 the next morning which was 18 hours after mclellan had the information in hand. so right away or maybe it was franklin who was the closest confidants and supporters did not take advantage as they could have a of the lost order of the intelligence windfall that they had first go the other question is why were these orders wraparound and who forgot the cigar's? [laughter] nobody knows. >> they thought they were at headquarters. probably one of the generals. >> why was it you have those

orders initially? that makes no sense at all. >> not if it was an envelope marked secret orders. >> but with this information in hand the cat is out of the bag the knowledge gained by the union commander forcing the bloodiest single day of the war and it is portrayed in different ways and certainly lincoln needs to declare a trial. but did lee lose sordid mclellan barely win? how did you concludes responsibility and blame for what happened on september 17? >> mcclellan was convinced convinced, he was afraid to

win was essentially it. there is a letter that he wrote, i made a copy of it, to his wife, one day after the battle, september 18. 8:00 a.m. if they had a terrible battle and lee is still there and has not left the battlefield they are expecting the battle to be renewed. and says we fought yesterday a terrible flap day's battle and it continued 14 hours. the fighting on both sides was superb. the general result was in our favor to say we gained a great deal of ground. it was a success or a decided victory depends on what occurs today. i hope god has given us a

great success because we're all in contempt to the bid and has the interesting sentence, those in whose judgment i rely tell me i thought the battle splendidly and it was a masterpiece of art. this is the most revealing letter i think mclellan ever wrote to and obviously will not follow up what he accomplished from the day before and thinks he has done a wonderful thing largely because he has prevented the superior force , they had even gained ground. as it happened the was counting three soldiers for every one that existed. it two was his habit hispanic at the same time mclellan sending the letter to his wife also sending a

telegram to the general in which she said i expect the battle to be renewed today. not that i expect to renew the attack her. [laughter] it is quite true mclellan says over and over and members of his staff and general slyke fits john porter thinking fact but if audit with 37,000 manned and mclellan had 80,000 and 65,000 actually got involved in the fight which is almost a two /1 advantage but taking the advantage of that great state is one brigade at a time. piecemeal attacks and that

he had only used his reserves 20,000 averse fired a shot in a anger but because he thought he had the tens of thousands of reserves never committed his own for fear they would be ambushed by those phantom reserves. there was the extraordinary number of missed opportunities on the union side the cuts of the psychology that could have made this a decisive victory rather than a qualified union victory. >> and both of you have written we should address this that it was the most important battle. tell me why you think that the. >> at the time they did not

know that and confederates did not think antietam was a defeat captured harpers ferry and the campaign as whole had twice as many casualties as the union had suffered. we only know now how important it was once the "emancipation proclamation" came out, to have all sorts of ripple effects that they talk about better than i can , there is all kinds of the lease -- believes that mclellan needed to follow this up his horse is shot and the new shoes for his

men and just had to cross the potomac and of course, was exceedingly reluctant and had to be ordered again and again to do it. >> host: you have written clearly what makes intuitive important and fascinating is the point* it may be more important looking back then it was september 18 but as you have written, antietam is transformative it changes the rationale for the war. >> it was recognized at the time by a lot of people in the north as a transformative victory. northern newspapers have huge headlines saying great victory even than a year times is the greatest in history of because the battle of antietam, the confederates were on a roll.

union rob was that rock bottom with the northern people and in the army of the potomac. once a month:should be given credit for was reviving that army so quickly and reorganizing to get to it off and putting it in shape to have a qualified victory for growth but because expectations in the south and even in the north and abroad is that the third time is a charm. he had won the peninsula campaign, the second battle of bull run now invading the north and this would be the crushing blow. when that didn't happen, i think there was a great sigh

of relief and if it had happened, if the confederates won a victory, the chances are quite strong the democrats would have won control over the house and european recognition. because we know the french in the british were seriously considering intervening by offering their officers to mediated peace and of the lincoln administration refused to except the offer which they would have done, they would have recognized the confederacy and that could have made a huge difference. but when the news reached london that lee had retreated back to virginia, the prime minister in particular whose power here was decisive, backed off. napoleon wanted to go ahead and british cabinet wanted

to go ahead but other key members said back off and see what develops next. 53 invasion had been successful to have bay victim and not forced to retreat which by the way lee hated retreating over the potomac even gave thought of crossing again to continue the campaign but his army was in no shape to do that and he finally recognize that. but if he didn't win the victory expected i think there would have been european intervention. you have a revival of the northern rock, the republican is retaining control and their british backing off from intervention and abraham lincoln and seizing upon

this battle, and happy as he was with the failure to make it more decisive and follow it up vigorously by a moving into virginia, he does wait for the victory he was waiting for two issued the "emancipation proclamation" that transform the nature of the war. and now make it a war for freedom as well. for all of these reasons reasons, antietam's stands as the most important turning point* on the war. >> i will take issue with one thing but i don't want to get too far ahead is how well lincoln did with the election but obviously huge loss is more achievable to emancipations femic as a game changers. >> as they gained 34 seats

ha. [laughter] however in the last 20 years before 1862, every midterm congressional election resulted in the victory by the opposition party. this was the first midterm election in 20 years that the opposition party did not gain control of the house. >> southern democrats were not participating. >> even so. >> you win on the technicality. [laughter] >> the point* is that when clint -- lincoln of firemen call-in until the day after the last midterm elections were held. if he did before that, you are right there would have been asleep. >> talk about emancipation as a result.

it is open to question to seize the moment and actually waits quite a bit and waits five days for a fellow who said that god decided the question and knows his cabinet when he calls them into session to say he will use antietam as a lever to pull the trigger i am mixing metaphors but you get the idea. he takes his time and talk about his decision. 18 for the moment but i have been curious about why he waits. the is the expect he will still be marching? >> jeno's the battle is over on the 17th but did not know if it would be renewed. lee is still in position on the 18th and does not retreat of that evening. they get involved in a

battle on the 19th and 20th. there is still fighting going on and so probably it is more accurate to say that he is really sure the campaign is over until the 20th. >> he also waits for a scheduled cabinet meeting? >> he does. over the weekend semi he was waiting since july 22nd 2 issue this. >> of course, i have recently done some work on the notion of how many people in washington news the proclamation was imminent. my conclusion is plenty. the newspapers were full of goods, share the story with the enough blabbermouth politicians and the white house often said that after years of wondering why william safire concluded it

is the worst kept secret in washington, he was probably right and lincoln needed that trigger and it provided it. making a great point* of him keeping mcclellan with that to election looming without political landscape changed enormously by as much as we look back why did it 83 more slaves? it agitated huge numbers of people and disturbed huge numbers of people. at the same time he began to hector to make fun of him and what could possibly have been a think? mclellan was furious at the

time he was taking. >> but on the battlefield and nobody was there listening and totally other abuse and then two or three days passed and says the reporter nothing happens. then they can is mad at me i am afraid i will be sent off to the west and has no conception i cannot believe he was so unclear as to what he wanted done but apparently he could talk with two mclellan until he

was blue in the face and nothing seemed to register. >> and also he is preemptory with the commander in chief what he is willing to fight for with the new landscape that involves fighting for emancipation. this really upset and a few days later comes the suspension of habeas corpus and the declaration of martial law. mclellan toys with the idea of expressing opposition but his a advisers tell him that he should remain silent. is the government that makes policy and the army carries it out. privately and makes it clear he is unhappy with the "emancipation proclamation." earlier coming he had

written a famous landing live-- letter that was referred to saying a declaration about slavery would dissolve the president armies and should not be a war for conquest or other institutions for the restoration of the union as it was before 1861. and i don't think mclellan changed his mind and run some of the platform that avoids and a commitment at all to the abolition of slavery. runs on the platform of a party that pledges the constitution as it is. he clearly did not like the direction the war was beginning to take the yet does not openly protest in september october 1862.

>> he does write a letter. a little address to his troops the superior to the military. i cannot remember exactly mid to the effective there is any objection the polls are always open and this is how you solve it of course, midterm elections were coming up so it is a thinly veiled a gesture. >> as we contemplate the enormous sacrifice eight -- sacrifice of american warfare, we want to open and the room up to questions with a reminder with microphones please wait for a microphone. >> as you probably

know, general lee last words before he died as he was dying was tell hill to come up. you must tell him zero to come up. would you comment? >> that does probably referred to woo the battle of antietam creek of the division was left behind at harpers ferry after the confederates captured september 14 to arrange for the soldiers and they captured soldiers to secure their role the armaments and shoes and ammunition and all they had captured was a boon to them. on the morning of september 17, lead had sent her orders, action in the evening of 16th, down to

"harper's" ferry to get up as early as he could. lee new the battle was impending. so hills division makes the forced march of 17 miles and gets to the battlefield at 4:00 in the afternoon. those that are not scattered along the way. i think half of the division gets there and crashes into the flank of the brand cyberattack -- burn it cited attack and was threatening to cave and the right flank when hill crash his in the left flank and 53 breathes a great sigh of relief and it saved the day for the confederates. find his last words tell him

to come up that is what he is referring too. >> i think you adjust the mcclellans weaknesses that lee deserves blame because he took enormous losses and the army was in grave condition when they cross the potomac into berlin to fight the south the cross with 40,000 men? >> blame? lee hold the termination was to get this over with as soon as possible and i think the recognize the south could not maintain is so very long against the north so from the time he takes command on june 1st 1862, he takes the offensive

to try to end the war as soon as he could. from the campaign when he comes very close to defeating mclellan, he immediately goes north again and has no choice to do something because general pope is to the north and mclellan is to the south and pass to do one or the other and goes after pope first. fend at that point* he is faced with the decision to keep going or retreat. i don't think he should be blamed for this. >> it is true the army was in terrible shape. many men did not have shoes and the supply system was in shambles. lee had 50,000 men

but-- when he began and only has 37,000 with about 3,000 casualties on september 14 but 10,000 men buy any

means. were there any women on the battlefield on that battlefield? >> not that were obvious. [laughter] there are those who dressed as men but i did not run across that with antietam. >> there was a woman a few years ago who was very much

interested in reenacting. she was that the re-enactment of the battle of antietam in the late 1980's and was caught dressed as a union soldier and caught coming out of the ladies room. [laughter] if dishonorably discharged. [laughter] she seized upon this and did a lot of research and found evidence of several hundred women who passed says men-- when men dressed up the soldiers are others where protecting lovers and found evidence of four women who fought at antietam or so she claims and one of them was killed. if she is right, there were

some. she actually sued the park service on the grounds of gender discrimination and had won her suit if not to participate in the living history demonstration. >> fears of women here you would interim meeting as a surprise guest and also the to send in on both sides of her family. it is on one side on the other side could german jewish photographer who took two photographs of lincoln. one of him wearing a beard in 1868 chicago also on the other side of the family one of the highest-ranking jewish officers and is here from florida i thought you would enjoy meeting her. please stand up.

[applause] she is not a veteran as far as i know. [laughter] we have time for one more question. >> everybody has a point* of view but it seems one of the frustrations is mclellan is so hard to like. would is your interpretation where lincoln was waiting in the mclellan parlor for him to come home and a general came home and went straight to bed without to acknowledging him? people said he was embarrassed because he was drunk. is it that or was he just rouble? >> i'd think there was no love lost between abraham lincoln and george mclellan. they just despise each other in many ways. mclellan was contemptible the root that night. i don't think he was drunk

but was at a wedding. >> the wedding of one of its officers. >> comes on to find a president lounging and his brother and did not want to talk to him. it was not business hours. [laughter] the fact lincoln did not have an dismiss that evening as the secretary tells him and egging him on. this is outrageous. he says whatever it takes to get him to win victories, you have a different view. that would add something to this story. >> i don't think he drank. >> that is not the first time. after being told the general went to bed, but it does change he is much more direct. it did have an effect on

him. >> getting hurt the have inspired his greatest speech when he got to merrill lynch in october dazed october 57 happen as my life i would talk amusing for half an hour and it wouldn't hurt anybody. hardly the gem of words but anti-them did inspire or made possible bid greatest act. into them and the fall of 1862 liberated they can as much as it liberated the enslaved people. and as have been argued so convincingly with their work as we all agree tonight, it transforms the war for the

union has it was our what it could be that embraces freedom. thank you very much. [applause] >> what inspired you to write this book? >> when i began looking at this study it was one of the topics that i got the most interest and questions about and tell what it meant to people and how important and the time being worked out because i was undergoing a renovation that was pretty close to being done so the interest was that the fever pitch. >> host: can you explain the shopping center and its

importance to chicago and the suburbs of the early '60s? >> guest: is a big first there's a lot of unique figures. they have not seen so message both 10 so much attention to detail and imposing architecture. it was very important to the northwest suburbs that the area was a boom town growing so rapidly one of the more important areas of chicago at that time. the case and make in the book is it represented a lot of first with shopping center building what we think of most a day and is to be a case study to talk about all shopping centers and the mall and how they developed. of the best analogy is open the floodgate.

>> victor is referred to as the father of a shopping mall. what design elements were considered unique at the time of the construction? >> victor was an amazing story there is a wonderful biography were i obtained most of my information and a holocaust refugee coming to america and said one of the things that influenced him the the most one central park and broadway and the juxtaposition about things that one was used by the public free of charge and the other was used by the public as capitalism and paying admission. he marries a two elements of the shopping center design and it was one of his greatest realizations and a unique feature was the triangular design.

according to company promotions to minimize the walking distance between the anchor stores and the first time there was more than two anchor stores and the amount of sculpture of our work to the a static pieces, you literally invested hundreds of thousands of dollars into the public art. it definitely was supposed to be a public space in addition to the buying and selling going on there. >> host: what made him the sensation and attraction during the 1960's? you mention public art but is there anything in particular that drew visitors to it? >> building of the same, the sheer size of it, a 200 tuned dome and those things now if you visited it would not appear to be a very impressive place but 1962 literally making headlines

all over the country. the public art was a big draw as well as the sheer size. >> host: did chicago promote the development of the shopping mall? >> i would say if they had it all they would have to go to their blessing but i can tell you the political establishment was very supportive and still are. by far the biggest taxpayer allows them at the time to rise to the head of all other competing suburbs in the area to provide services to people to lower the property tax which was a big point* for anyone looking to move to the suburbs.

and that could stake that out. >> what impact did the would feel small have beginning in 1971 and '70s into the 80s? >> which cast services? >> it was built five if it was most and shopping centers springing appear everywhere. and but he could speak taxpayers and to buy seven news -- services with other revenues. they were very jealous. of the solution was to

builder of shopping centers, there on malls, with their huge or smaller strip the boatmen's coming a essentially them trying to keep the sales tax revenue and shopping in their own community. >> whether any efforts with the shopping center and increased competition with surrounding communities to reinvent itself in the chicago area. >> yes. you see from day one it started changing. retail has been that it had been retail you realize you cannot sit idle before the competition comes then he was trying to keep himself fresh and relevant to customers. there were two developments

before the one going on today that first occurred around 77 to commemorate the 15th anniversary on which he saw the institutional remodel with bud light titles and white ceiling tiles what we would now consider a model but in the 1984 wended corporation took over the center, they did some major changes and there is a lot of language in the book where they are critiquing the original '60s design going on about how outdated it is. but that represents a retail and the changes that need to be mad and may not be there tomorrow. >> thank you for your time. my pleasure.

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