american indians wanted crazy horse dead? >> it was a very simple matter of political jealousies. the sioux indians were intensely political people. whenever they had a major decision to make, they talked about it endlessly and counseled, formed factions, and there were groups of cular bands, their own particular groups, and crazy horse appeared on the scene, received a lot of attention from white officials at the beginning, some who suggested he was made chief of all the sioux, the american officials wanted there to be one chief of all the sioux, completely unnatural to them, because if there was one chief, they could agree with him and everybody had to do it. that was the idea, so that

suggestion irritated the rivals, and the traditional way of changing leadership among lakota and sioux the traditional way of look changing leadership was people abandoned the leader or killed the leaders. it was tribal politics as had been customarily carry out. >> i would like to thank you all for coming. [applause] >> we will be doing signings. thanks for coming. [inaudible conversations] >> you guys were terrific.

[inaudible conversations] >> this event was part of the 2011 los angeles times festival of books. for more information visit events.l.a.times.com/festivalof books. >> get the booktv schedule e-mailed to you on booktv.org. press the alert button and use your mobile phone. text the word book to 99702. standard message and data rates apply. >> microsoft co-founder paul allen talks about his memoir next on booktv. he is interviewed by jose antonio vargas, for washington post reporter and senior contributing editor of the huffington opposed. this was posted by the computer history museum in california and is a little over an hour.

>> guest: how is it going? >> host: i should begin by saying sometimes you can't trust the media. i am saying -- >> guest: no idea what you mean. >> host: someone who comes from the media. we oversimplified. we care more about -- we care more about the tension and conflict and less about depth and content. judging by the excerpt on 60 minutes, some reviews, you would think your book is like something out of the social network of the 1980s. like it is bill gates versus paul allen/test. someone said you are the bitter

billionaire. so i am reading the book and wait a second. did they read the same book that i just read? the point i am trying to get at is this idea that in the book you write critically about yourself and what you have done and the failures you had just as quickly as you have written about microsoft or the relationship with bill gates. that is really interesting and where i wanted to start off. you have been ubiquitous on my google alert for two months. i am curious what surprise you the most about how people reacted to the book? >> guest: a number of things. in my life i have been fortunate to be involved with so many different things.

involved with microsoft, will always be my signature achievement. i have high hopes now -- we will talk about that later. i have been involved with so many different things. if anyone tries to pigeonhole me into one area -- they struggle to do that. >> host: you said in the book and in interviews that this was one of the hardest things you have ever done. why do you say that? >> i had been thinking about doing a book for years and then i got very ill and during that period i decided now is the time to do the book. i wasn't sure i would be around to see the book published. i would get up every day feeling fatigued and work on the book and after the first draft was

finished, my old heritage as a programmer came back to the 4 and i would meticulously go through and at it and change and rephrased the details to try to make them digestible to the lay public but give everybody a sense of what it was like. i hope i did that. i went through every word of the book eight times and don't need to read it again. >> host: was it hard? a lot of people made the mistake saying you have been a recluse. has it been hard being so public about some of these thoughts? some of the stuff you right in the book, anecdotes involving bill gates, i am waiting for the hollywood version of how this will play out. it is tough to do that so

publicly? >> guest: when you write an autobiography like this, are you going to tell it as you experienced it and sell the highs and lows of the important part of your life? i chose to do that in a very unvarnished way. i thought that was what it deserved and people deserve to hear. i feel i made some signature successes and some things that didn't work out but technology and other things that happen, not everything in technology. the reclusive thing i don't understand. >> host: you throw parties on a big yacht.

>> guest: to the reclusive miss -- stays in your house. i am not sure people stand before sports events and travel world. i don't know. last week i was going to send out a tweet saying billionaire heads to las vegas to reenact the life of howard hughes. i don't even like las vegas. >> host: you have to tweak that. that is too funny. >> guest: maybe next week. >> host: i will hold you up on that. what do you make of the people, like former microsoft employees. >> guest: which ones? >> host: they're not in the audience. surprise at the extra from vanity fair's saying why is he speaking out now and asking --

what is the point of that? what is the point of airing dirty laundry? >> that was a moment in my life when i decided you are the founder of a company and decide to leave and the way it happened at that time was gone. it was most important that it was a signature moment in my life and gives people an idea of the trajectory which went from a hugely productive and innovative and fun partnership to the lows at the end so i went on to do other things since then. that was an important chapter in my life. >> host: it reads like a book in which somebody had nothing to lose. you wrote it all out. in many ways that is a testament to what you have done. >> i wrote a lot of it in those

moments when i was thinking i have to get this down and hopefully people will get something out of it. >> host: did you give steve ballmer or bill gates kind of this is coming just so you know? >> oh yes. >> host: what do they say? >> guest: i have yet to talk to bill about the book but i suspect there will be an intense discussion. steve i talk to and he basically says the book portrays the events -- it did happen. >> host: no one has challenged any factor in the book. when you meet with bill -- can we take it or something? >> guest: what channel is that going to go on?

wwf? i am kidding! [talking over each other] >> host: not to get all bill gates about this but i have a question. can you take us back to that moment when you were in tenth grade. this was lakeside in north seattle. what was it like? what was the thing that you thought this guy is interesting? >> guest: there are pictures of bill and be together -- there are some examples in the museum. but they are not hot. that could probably be fixed. i just remember bill wearing saddle shoes and a sweater.

he walks in very gamely and man young man and this was at our high school. there were a few of us almost elbowing our way to get time on the terminal and bill was one of them and a few others. at the end of the month they would post a horrifying list of how much money would run up on a time share. bill and i were at the top. how will i explained my parents $68 of time sharing? that was always anxiety provoking. >> host: what about today you saw that article in popular mechanics? that magazine, check out the revolutionaries exhibit.

the first two thousand years of computing. really interesting. the magazine is blown up downstairs. what was that feeling like when you saw that magazine? >> host: >> guest: of feeling of vindication. i had been telling bill we should be doing a basic language interpreter for my processor chip. actually built a machine based on the microprocessor chip for a failed company that processes data produced by traffic reporters and rubber hoses industry that punched out 16 channel coated tape. this audiences technical. everyone have a problem with that? all right. i remember one day bill and i

bought this 8,008. i was convinced we could build our own minicomputer with microprocessor chips. so it came down to it was stuck to this piece of inflating plastic wrap in foil and cost $360. this is a whole processor and inch long or something so that is how we got our start. we learned about microprocessors then and i would say we should do 8,008. he would say is too slow and has a seven level stack and will be unusable. so the 88 came out and i said -- we don't know anybody back in boston to build another computer. let's wait till somebody produces a computer with 8080 in it and i went to city news and i

saw it and spent $0.75 and show the magazine to build. >> host: the era of the computer has arrived. the very first sentence. in concrete terms, figuring this out, what did that feel like? what were you envisioning? where was it going? >> guest: at that time we did know -- we had no idea what it was like. i talked about going to albuquerque. we had no idea exactly how fast home computers and personal computers would take off and how our software would be an amazing part of that change.

if we are really successful maybe we will have 35 employees. i think microsoft is over 90,000 now. you have to remember -- >> host: what was the -- >> guest: we were worried there was competition. my role was read every computer design. i read everything trying to see the computer world was more about what you see downstairs. 360s and everything else. my job was to look at the horizon and see what could be coming. i didn't see anything about basic from anybody else. >> host: microsoft was founded the same year that gordon more came up -- the number of transistors inc. in a chip will double every 24 months. does this matter to you?

was it something you were thinking of, everything getting cheaper, better and faster? >> you could see the trend. the first i was aware of was the 4,004 and then the 8,008. that is in a museum of natural history in albuquerque. than the 8080. we were aware of the chips were getting so much better and faster and cheaper. now every component of a portable device for computer, every part gets feet -- cheaper and faster and better every year. we knew the trend was happening. it was obviously happening. >> host: this is my last bill gates question. don't worry. you have question cards.

feel free to write questions and we will establish some later. i thought the most interesting passage about bill gates was when you wrote, quote, i left microsoft a quarter-century before bill did and we both had our signal triumph but in certain respects neither of us have been quite as good alone as we work together. i am reading this and thinking are you trying to say what would have happened if you had stayed at microsoft? what would have happened in the past ten years if microsoft has gone by the wayside? clearly as effective as facebook or google or twitter? ever think what would happen if you stayed? >> i have thought about it. in technology we accomplish amazing things and bill was an amazingly -- to use microsoft language, hard core business person and the company did

superwell after i left. it had more challenges recently that we will talk about a few minutes. just think in retrospect how lucky i was to have a partner as capable of bill gates, we worked shoulder to shoulder and i brought my ideas to the table. i would like to think of tri-state i could have affected the course of things. when i left i wasn't planning on staying. i wanted to start a new chapter in my life and do other things. i tried to retire at age 30 which lasted 18 months. >> host: what did you do? >> guest: i kicked back on the riviera. i wanted to see europe. i traveled a lot.

tried to relax. if you are a creative person, lasted so long and you want to be involved in creating something again. >> host: what do you think that the history of the technology industry when you look at companies founded by two people there's always one who tends to be the outside world within that. the co-founders would see -- what does it say about the nature of friendship when you have two people involved? >> guest: it depends on the personality and dynamic between the two people. i also think some people are more technological. that is their bent. i wasn't attracted to sales and marketing the same way i was attracted to the microprocessor chip or product we should be doing and those kinds of

questions. overtime bill was in those roles. the company was growing more in those areas. our rules became different. i was solely focused on technical things and bill was focused on non technical things. as these roles evolve over time so is the case of microsoft. >> host: ever since the social network came out everyone is using it as shorthand for silicon valley culture. have you seen the movie? >> guest: i didn't see it until after the book. i just felt -- there might be some effect. it was really strange to see the echoes of some of the things that happened like the shot of harvard square.

early in the movie. i was there in 1974. then the other things that happened. it was interesting. it was very well made. >> host: in the book you were talking about pepperoni pizza and thinking about what if we start a company? when i interviewed mark zuckerberg he actually had the same -- we would be sitting in a pizza place thinking about how to start the next this or that. doesn't change. >> guest: there is something in that pizza. probably something -- pepsi-cola in power also. [talking over each other] >> host: cooler and more diverse. she said you thought about retiring by 30.

that lasted 18 months. i am looking in the valley at jack dorsey warm like thunderbird -- mark zuckerberg. what advice would you give to someone going through starting something and this is their life. would you tell them to take a break? what would you tell them? >> guest: the other thing that influenced my departure was my health. i didn't know -- they fought -- i was cured by age 30 but they didn't know that. a big wake-up call. there are certain things that i don't think our that mysterious that you have to be eternally vigilant about new platforms coming down the pike. if you think about facebook and twitter and they could have been created earlier. think of myspace.

>> host: i was on it at fort three weeks. >> guest: when a new platform evolves -- incredibly vigilant and you have to hire the best people and retain them which in silicon valley the reason you didn't move microsoft in silicon valley was everyone changes jobs in 18 months. that was in 1977. so we said seattle. rain. i want to go outside. so anyway our families ritter -- were there. hiring and retaining great people and the blank spot where you don't see these other platforms that were potentially

obsolete coming and co's -- even google and apple didn't see the social network stuff coming. >> host: apple tried to launch pink and i am not sure where that has done. a little too late. it hasn't caught on. that leads to this question. microsoft's elevated 36 birthday earlier this month. i am curious. where do you think microsoft is in relation to google, facebook or apple? high-tech hellhound. why did you call them high-tech hellhounds? >> that is from -- that phrases from a blues song. hellhound on my trail in the name of the song. microsoft always had a lot of competition but the competition

today is incredibly fierce from the company's we already talked about. they are trying to fight a multi front war ended is hard to innovate. we get people to change their habits for their behavior. the inertia is pretty strong. if you want to change to a different search engine it has to be good and better than a social network or mobile phone platform. they are working in a number of those areas. i encourage them to get an idea now and then but it is a big challenge as it is for companies like apple, a challenge to come from not having a system to being a major influence in that area. that is the way of the land. >> host: microsoft is behind

that? >> guest: enterprise and other areas, microsoft has a great position to be superbly profitable with great people but competing in all those areas is another thing. sometimes you have to pick your spot. microsoft has game platforms. >> host: what is interesting is microsoft is influential, incredible company so woven into our lives. i grew up -- we have forgotten it is even there. it is so woven into our lives. you have written about what you call the breathtaking fall from grace. wasn't so long ago microsoft that bill and i followed at the start, we set the standards but

there is no one speaking privately and candidly who would make that claim today. >> guest: i was referring to new standards with microsoft as an amazing position, leadership position on the pc, carrying around different kinds of mobile devices and tablets have taken the field too. there will be an incredible battle between different tablet suppliers too. when these new platforms come down the pike it is incumbent on you to internalize that and mount your attack to keep your amazing engine going in this new area. microsoft has been lagging in some of these areas. i am very straightforward about

that. >> host: you said if microsoft fails to catch up with mobile it is in for a long slow slide. what do you think strategywise microsoft can do to get it up in the market share where blackberry in terms of the software for the blackberry or the iphone or android, what do you think microsoft can do? >> you are coming from behind on a platform, you have to meet the capabilities and have some things that are persuasive to get people to switch because they won't switch unless something is dramatically better. the example of google. there was a time there were five other -- they came up with something better. really take huge chunks of market share you have to meet and beat and that requires

shorter development cycles, your best people and focus. >> host: you said steve ballmer has one of the toughest jobs in the world. if you could give him some advice what would it be? >> guest: i have given him advice. >> host: such as? [talking over each other] >> guest: those are private conversations. >> host: that is okay. >> guest: i thought steve sands was here. >> host: it is something else. i am curious. what was the advice? >> guest: the kinds of things we have been talking about. what areas to improve some of these products. a few start talking about tablets -- >> host: where is that going? >> guest: you should talk to someone from microsoft. they are very focused on that.

i don't want to speak to microsoft product strategy. >> guest: >> host: from an investment perspective doing some reading on you a business reporter once rode you suffered from a sort of investor's attention deficit disorder. there was one point you invested in 100 media communications companies. they have been costly. what has been on your mind? from an investment standpoint. i won't just ask about -- [talking over each other] >> host: what has been the biggest failure? >> guest: the most costly was target communications. i felt cable was a new platform because they were going to have millions of homes which back then they didn't and now they do. the product cycle in cable is very slow compared to anything

else. putting new sets on boxes and take advantage of those took longer than i expected but the actual delivery of data to people's homes -- the main problem was the amount of leverage which was too high. in terms of -- [talking over each other] >> host: you made money off of that. >> guest: and a 0 l -- priceline and espn.com. sold that to disney. many successes along away. if you invest, a bubble is a bubble. everyone is going to get -- have some painful experiences. i have tried to do many different things that had some

great successes and some signature failures. the big one, the big bad ones and big good ones are in the book. >> host: what would you consider your biggest success? dreamworks? >> guest: the hollywood mentality. microsoft just to give you an example, if we made a mistake or mist a trend we would flagellate ourselves. how will we catch up? and hollywood -- not that great and the box office was horrible. we have another movie coming out. it is not the post analysis -- a healthy post analysis like you have been good technology

companies. i was a fish out of water in that world. i tried to contribute a few things. one of the few things i talk about in the book. this was the level of defect i had. when you walk the ground doesn't deform. there is no dust. and something is wrong. but you don't know what it is. they say we will fix it and it will cost $1 million. that is the kind -- >> host: was it $1 million? >> guest: i think so. so i made some documentary films that we talked about earlier. one on global health and one on evolution. i am proud of our documentary work.

they are philanthropic endeavors. >> host: what is your best investment so far? >> guest: a few years ago i invested in -- some people convinced me to invest in oil and gas pipeline. >> host: i read about that. >> guest: turned down a lot of people the oil and gas. that was a good investment. it was not one of those things. i really enjoyed -- that was profitable. you think the technology person you can have some value and half of it is really rewarding. you see online services, aol will do great. microsoft says they will crush a 0 l. might be time to sell.

just pure investing probably oil and gas. pure investing. i see some cards are being picked up out there. >> host: last year you filed and refiled a lawsuit against the entire internet. it was that broad. all successful -- yahoo! facebook, google, ebay be crucial for copyright infringement. patent. why did you do that? >> guest: i can't talk about the details of the lawsuit. i had a research company in the valley years ago that might be some people here. so it is not around anymore but

it was a wonderful experience. in terms of start up companies that came out of it directly, very modest success. there is litigation that you mentioned. it is a well known individual going in. everybody knows that every other hellhound has every other hellhound as far as i can tell. >> host: but paul allen is suing the entire internet on twitter. >> guest: i am an xl hound. >> host: was it today, do you think in many ways you have been too ahead? >> guest: you can be early. nobody else is doing this.

sometimes there are some things inherent in whatever the technology might be or management or a bunch of reasons your early idea will not take root. you are too early. you have got to be cognizant of those factors. >> host: which tech would you invest in if you could? >> guest: the valuations are so crazily high. >> host: they are not. would you invest? >> guest: i don't want to comment on any known companies. you do your best due diligence to make sure there's something really new and defensible. i had a few ideas in the last couple years. combine this with this, my best ideas or a combination of the

basic microprocessor chip and say what about that? my staff would say 20 companies are doing that. i would say it is okay. it is very crowded right now so you have to be superaware of the competitive landscape and someone else has momentum. >> host: when i was writing this up, the idea of owning a football team, the seattle seahawks, trailblazers, what is the score? basically looking at the scores they were down. something like that. you funded the first privately financed rocket to fly to outer space. you and the guitar that jimi hendrix played at woodstock and you alone the chair that captain kirk sat in. >> guest: it is a modified

office chair. not as impressive as the enterprise. >> host: there is this eight level 414 foot yacht. >> host: i am starting to feel that. >> host: i am writing this down thinking to myself is there anything that you want to do that you haven't actually done? >> guest: we haven't talked about the brain yet. you start talking about scientific problems or challenges the fact that spaceshipone succeeded, nobody knew that was going to happen when we started. sometimes by being ambitious and tried to conquer those things sometimes you fail and sometimes you get a prize or the product is in the marketplace but it is

the ambition, a great team of people, that is just enthralling. there are many challenges, i am especially excited about what is related to the brain and artificial intelligence, always had a nagging interest in and we are getting some traction there. you are talking about things that are more related to -- >> host: your personal life. >> guest: if you are talking about sheer fun i was in antarctic that a couple months ago. that is fascinating when you cruise up on a sleeping whale. that is wonderful and is a scientist and say here is what you are in and this is what it looked like 20 years ago and it was full of ice. there is no eyes. it is almost gone.

global warming -- you can see it. there's a chapter about adventures and some of the thinking was inspired by seeing a shot cousteau. i had wonderful experiences trying to explore the fun side of life and it is incumbent on all of us in technology to think how we balance our lives between the siren of i can fix the last bug versus i should spend more time with my family or whatever it might be, whatever the sort of things that call to you are. music is a big fashion. >> host: the landmark map of the human brain. why was it so groundbreaking?

this is from the alan institute of brain science. >> guest: we are doing things sunni industrial scale. we get human brains and slice them up and look at the gene expression, 20,000 plus genes in the human brain and put the data on line for scientists to use in their research. no individual lab could do it to the level of fairness and equality and multiple brains. it takes an industrial type approach likely human genome project. we are doing developing humans. we did work on autistic brains. it is endlessly fascinating to me because the way the brain works we are just starting to see the outlines of it. starting to get a sketchy idea and there is so much work to be

done. each part was designed by evolution, it is optimized for what it does in particular. the opposite of a computer which is the regular structure. the brain every little bit is optimized to do its job. it is endlessly fascinating, compelling and mind-boggling. >> host: i will get some more questions from the audience but we have a question from ed who is the guru of artificial intelligence who is actually here tonight and the question is in my view the company that you own is supporting and managing one of the best artificial intelligence projects in the world. can you tell the audience a little about it? >> guest: you are trying to understand -- ultimately we would like to know how does the

brainwork? and if there are treatments for degenerative diseases like alzheimer's how can you make those treatments happened earlier? i am fascinated by that quirk on the brain. then you have artificial intelligence where programmers have blank sheets of paper and say we don't know how the brain works but we want to do something similar. i have a team in seattle trying to encode initially a biology textbook and put that knowledge in software. is a well trodden path the superhard to do your representation as i am sure you know. he could give you a better link than i could. it is hard to do that in software because real life reasoning involves probabilities and things that are still

research areas for artificial intelligence. we are moving down that path and you can see 3 years down the road maybe we will have something really significant. in the meantime we are concentrating on getting a biology test inside computer software in a way that a student can ask questions and get a coherent answer from the software. it is groundbreaking work and people in seattle manager yet. we have had work done to forward that work. >> host: project a low -- halo. is that something to be excited about? >> guest: i am a few internet things. but the brain and artificial intelligence you could spend many lifetimes trying to figure

out ways to accelerate progress. i am excited to be involved in those areas and looking out for other areas and things. any philanthropy -- that is a wonderful things to be involved in, to be able to give back. when you have signature success it is incumbent upon you to give back. >> host: you pledged last july. >> guest: i intended to give the majority of my assets to philanthropy and bill called up and said would you julian? he has taken on some tough problems in global health and malaria and education. those are huge problems. if you are doing your own philanthropy, what appeals to me? i make a difference in terms of the solution of the problem. i am focused on the brain right

now. >> host: questions from the audience. pacific northwest has benefited $1 billion in investment in that area. who was your mentor? is it important to have one? >> guest: for your life you have a series of people who have a positive influence and give you a chance to succeed. i talk about my parents in the book. my father -- my mother was a schoolteacher and i spend a lot of time around books in the university of washington library trying to absorb everything i could. when i got to high school we were self-taught except there were a bunch of mit and stanford

people giving away three times what we got hooked up with. is steve russell here tonight? steve russell who did -- bill and i literally dive in dumpsters to get these listings -- coffee stain listings and i could smell that coffee today and we would pour through these listings. i don't know what it is doing but it is beautiful. so you a absorb some of that through osmosis as you go along the way. active mentoring and teachers you have in school and you get excited about other things like shakespeare or whatever. i have enjoyed having a well-rounded life interested in so many things. i try to convey it in the book.

>> guest: >> host: i think you did. >> guest: there are so many things unbelievably fascinating in the world whether it is literature or art or the ocean or music. you could go on and on forever. any of the world you can get drawn into if you have someone that shows you the way and is excited about it for the museum in seattle, we deliberately tried like this museum is doing to show younger people try playing a guitar and if you make a couple notes you want to learn how to play guitar and do the same thing with -- do more things to get people interested in the program. >> host: what do you see as the next big thing and why? >> guest: that is a hard one. i think eventually some of these

a i systems eventually are going to be so much better at speech understanding but in terms of things happening in the cloud or whatever i can say. >> host: really great question. at an early age you achieve fabulous wealth which enables you to recreate your life in any way you wanted. was that liberating or horrifying? to have everything you ever wanted to do right in front of you? was that liberated or horrifying? >> guest: so many possibilities and options. then you are a steward of those assets. if you have reversals or whenever you feel awful. so you have to be very careful.

and all of the resources that i have, the lion's share go to philanthropy when i pass. so is that realization you have to keep that in mind. >> host: one question -- please describe please describe interactions with ibm laid 70s as the pc emerged. use that we are not going to work higher like the ibm people -- >> guest: bill goes to the first meeting and forgot to bring a tie so he had to buy a tie at the last second. by the time -- in seattle, it was really -- i was on pins and

needles because the basic we were doing was on a read only memory and i was so afraid there was going to be bugs in it which there were. so i put these little hooks in a so i could replace in ram any bad areas of the wrong code and that was a valuable. there is a story in the book where we are arguing about the fact that it was delayed. tree structure directories in passing should be in das so they got the restructured directories which. was part of the unit back in the day. the ibm guys were happy with

partition. but restructure is -- and of course the product got delayed. there was a bunch of back-and-forth about that. they came to us and said we want this b.c. -- pc. where did we get an operating system? your language seems great and the rest is history. as kids in our late 20s, we knew it was going to be big but we had no idea how big it turned out to be because everyone wanted it. >> host: aerospace question. what do you expect from spaceshipone? a true commercial space flight company? like early boeing or lockheed?

>> guest: richard branson has taken the patent and the license to the technology. in not too long they will be flying people, paying passengers into space. you go straight of that come straight back down and have an hour. an amazing ride at you are floating weightless in space for five minutes. that will be exciting. when i was watching these flights -- something goes wrong i get an error message. in rocketry something goes wrong, with a human being inside it is really bad. i am occasionally asking questions in retrospect not this one really.

there has to be a free seat in spaceshipone so capable of flying three people into space. while the test flights only one person? they said in case something goes wrong. oh yes. when those flights were happening i was so nervous and so happy when they got back on the ground. >> host: speak a little bit about judgment day:intelligent design. >> guest: there was a documentary we did following on the evolution documentary where we talked about a court case that happened about textbooks. it is interesting. i recommend people see it. there's a theory in intelligent

design, people who try to justify intelligent design say there are not intermediate forms like flagella bacteria. there is no way it could have been created other than by an intelligent designer. yet biologists on the witness stand say there are five intermediate forms and the argument devolves down into what about between those forms? we found this one. basically there are intermediate forms in some way. in my opinion. that is what it is about. >> host: a question asking for advice for programmers. creative trends. what is the future of programming? >> guest: i feel a bit bad because it used to be when there was a new programming language i would get a manual and i would

read the manual and i would say that is really cool but the other stuff over there is worse than any other language i have ever seen. there are so many new languages. last time are programmed -- which was 1980 -- i don't know. hy want to say 87 may be. >> host: i was 6. i am just saying. >> guest: i was the only person in the company who knew how to write a similar code. i don't know.

i would study -- it is fun to pick a language if you pick the language -- you see companies like google who are trying to innovate languages but in this end all these tools you can do anything you want. it is just a matter of how fast you can get there and get caught up in the tool itself and picking the right tool you lose three months on your schedule. programming is great but i get but sometimes when talking about my project teams, we have two years of legacy code to factor. we used to say reword it but now everything gets factored in and it sounds a