and be even when i came back home one of the most tragic things was, one, i never was missed and, two, i couldn't properly explain where the hell i was. now, i can see that out of the ashes of a broken down community that had been crushed to the ground, that out of all of this it's become one of the greatest democracies and economic powers in that region, and a long time friend of the united states. those are good thoughts, and i can say that's the where i was, i was in korea in 1950, and be i helped to preserve and to continue the expansion of a democracy. but quite frankly, i may not want to know why i was there. and i'm going to do this during the summer.

so that won't be on the floor of the house of representatives. >> tell us what you're reading this summer. send us a tweet at booktv. >> here's a look at some upcoming book fairs and festivals over the next few months. on july 29 from belfast, maine s the belfast be bound book festival, a three-day celebration of reading, writing and publishing. on september 2nd, decatur, georgia, hosts the decatur book festival. the brooklyn book festival begins on september 15th. the author lineup includes walter mosley. then the 16th annual baltimore book festival starts september 23rd. please let us know about book fairs and festivals in your area, and we'll add them to our list. e-mail us at booktv@cspan.org.

>> well, july was a busy month in publishing news what with the liquidation of borders, and now there's been an update with the google book settlement. sarah weinman is the news editor of publishes' marketplace. what's the latest on the google book settlement? >> well, there was a hearing that took place on july 19th where judge jenny chen heard from various parties with respect to the settlement, and from what news accounts reported, he wasn't terribly happy at the current state of things. the bottom line is both parties want more time. the next hearing will be september 15th, the judge is really pushing for something to happen. and if two opposing parties, google and the authors' guild and the association of american publishers working in the tandem, if they can't seem to come to some sort of agreement,

then judge chen intimated that he may have to come to some sort of ruling and be, essentially, force the issue. he would also like to see just more things happening. of this hearing has been delayed and delayed all summer long, originally there was something supposed to happen in april, then it was june, then it was july. now we're being pushed off to september. and be after so many years, i mean, the original lawsuit happened around six years ago or so, and the fact that judge chen has already moved, he's been promoted up to the second court of appeals, he's, you know, this is one of his outstanding cases in the southern district. he would really like to have some forward motion and some progress, and he wasn't seeing that. >> sarah weinman, who did the delay benefit, if anyone? >> you know, that's a very good question. um, i suspect it possibly might

benefit google more because they seem to have the least to lose. after all, so many of these books have been scanned, um, in a related development they're selling e-books. it's not really, i suppose, necessarily many their interests to see something happen, but at the same time i'm not really sure it's in anyone's best interests. ultimately, everyone would like to see some sort of resolution. nobody really wants to see another trial. no one would want to see more dollars spent perhaps needlessly to keep this going. so, ultimately, it remains to be seep. i have a feeling we'll have greater answers, one would hope, on september 15th. >> and booktv will continue to coffer the google book settlement. sarah weinman is news editor of publish's' marketplace. thank you. >> is there a nonfiction author or book you'd like to see

featured on booktv? send us an e-mail at booktv@cspan.org or tweet us at twitter.com/booktv. >> more of booktv's live coverage of the 2011 harlem book fair now. up next, a group of authors present their recent biographies and studies of african-american history. .. i am the author of dye free, a heroic family tale. let me tell you a little bit about myself.

i have been here for 20 years. can you believe new york one is celebrating 20 years next year? [applause] antonette today's panel discussion is triumph against the grain, and my book strongly identifies with that. believe it or not, two years ago ancestry.com had found an amazing story of triumph against the grain. i learned from a web site, not family law, but from a web site that my great great great grandfather was owned by a slave trader. hence my name cheryl wills and then he bonded with five boys on a slave plantation and escaped in 1863 divide in the civil war from 1863 to 1865, so i was

calling that the original triumph against the grain. we have distinguished panelists who are also going to talk about their amazing books and i am going to ask you all to keep your introductions to about a minute. and then we will take it from there. first let me introduce dr. carla peterson. she is the author of "black gotham," a family history of african-americans in 19th century new york city. she is a professor of english at the university of maryland at college park. her expertise includes 19th century african-american women writers and speakers in the northern u.s.. please welcome her. [applause] dr. gregory jones is the author of "job" a man for his time. at dr. jones is a -- where he studied psychology and religion, and a star athlete.

he became an all-american player of the year during his basketball career and his number 21 jersey for those of you who recognize him was inducted into his college hall of fame. please give him a round of applause. [applause] craig williams is here. he is the author of "the olympian," an american triumph. he is a new jersey native and he wore many hats before becoming a writer. at syracuse university he majored in business but only tells a deep fascination for the study of history. please give them him a hand. [applause] dan charnas is here and he is the author of "the big payback," the history of the business of hip-hop. he is a journalist, screenwriter, record producer and teacher, one of the first writers for the source and part of the generation of young writers who helped create hip-hop journalism. give him a hand. [applause]

and lastly mark johnson is here. he is the author of "basketball slave," the andy johnson harlem globetrotters mba story and that is quite a a title msa. mark johnson is the youngest son of andy johnson, a respected business professional and advocate for young people. he is a native of philadelphia and graduate of the university of new york at old westbury. "basketball slave" is filled with extraordinary tales about the story you never heard about the harlem globetrotters. he is going to tell us from the perspective of his father. give him a hand. [applause] okay let's start with dr. carla peterson. it has been said that your book, "black gotham," challenges many of the so-called truths about african-american history. expand on that. >> okay, so i wrote my book for the general public so what i'm

going to say might be familiar to many of you but i thought it was worth repeating in the beginning of the book. one is that when we say 19th century african-american, we don't mean slaves in the south or only slaves in the south but also free blacks in the north. if we say new york state is for the civil war everybody would say -- when the fact is that emancipation did not occur in the state until 1827. another would be that in new york in the 19th century meant harlem. harlem was a cow pasture at the time and so what i'm talking about in my bob look is lower manhattan, which was a very -- which was filled with mick's neighborhoods. there were not segregated neighborhoods the way that we think of harlem now or it least in the 20th century. and because of that, i think

that blacks have a very different experience than one would normally assume. the last point is of course that out of this came a black elite, and they really were triumphed against the grain. my book is based on my family's history. all the research was done here at the schomberg, 11 years worth of it and i traced them and their friends. they came from nothing and they did well. they were doctors, they were pharmacists, they were in the tobacco trade and so forth. and so that is really the history of the black elite in new york that i tried to uncover in the book. >> thank you. [applause] >> dr. jones. dr. jones you know of all the stories in the bible, the story of job seems to stretch across

generations, centuries. people always seem to resonate with the story of job. tell us why he wrote the book. >> first of all thank you for the marvelous introduction. you are probably expecting michael jordan or somebody, right? willis and i'm humbled but one thing i found out is that when you are in the midst of suffering, rather than trying to reject it, trying to tussel and wrestle with it, trying to fight with it, they sometimes have to embrace it. and so i made a vow to the lord that if you look me up, this downward spiral that i was confronted with that i would write the story of job so people can look at job not just about his patients. we always station -- focus on his patients but if we look at this man's integrity and his character in the midst of the struggle, then we can use that in modern day. look at how the floodwaters are here today. look how this world is ever-changing and people are

committing suicide in making decisions that are contrary to the scriptures. but job upheld the heavenly kingdom. he always looked a top for his answers and not below so i wanted to write the story, "job," a man for his time come in for our time, a man for all time. that the story should not just lay dormant in the old testament that we need need to resurrect it today because we don't need to internalize. we don't need to intellectualize, we don't need to politicize another person suffering a tissue take away from the essence of that person suffering. so if we embrace suffering and look at the beauty that is within it, we then can get a different perspective of how god is in control of all things. [applause] >> it looks like we could have church and in here too today, right?

john baxter taylor craig is a name that may not be common to many people but when he died in 1908, at the age of 26 "the new york times" called him the world's greatest runner. tell us why so many of us have never heard of him. >> i have actually given that quite a bit of thought and i believe that his story like many stories exists in a cultural blind spot. although i think it is a trend that is changing for the largest part. we as african-americans tend not to look back to find our heroes, to explore those chapters of our story that contain a tremendous amount of pain. we tend to want to look forward and of course mainstream society for the vast majority of our history here has deemphasized or

undervalued our story. and so, kind of like two baseball players in the outfield calling i got it, i got it i got it and then the ball falls between them, a lot of these stories like john's story just are existing in a space were nobody is looking. but i can assure you that this is one of many many stories of triumph and overcoming obstacles that in my heart of hearts i know need to be told. >> wow. [applause] >> dam, whether it is hip-hop jazz or rock and roll the music business we all know can be a dirty business. based on your book, the big payback a history of the business of hip-hop, how would you rank the business of that musical genre? would you rank it as the best of the best or the worst of the worst? >> well, in terms of it being a

business and specifically a business of lack culture that and franchises the makers of that culture, i would say that it is by far the best. >> oh really? >> that is what the book is about. hip-hop became a multibillion-dollar business, i think a billion dollars a year in terms of recorded history and i think the clothing business with $2 billion a year at the time my bookends which is 2000 it. people forget what this was 30 years before that and where it came from. it came from here. came from the streets of harlem in the streets of south bronx at a time when the odds were stacked against harlem and the ads were stacked against the people who created this community. harlem was the -- de-industrialized. jobs jobs had left and in the 1960s the biggest part of the harlem economy was the numbers

racket and the entry-level job was -- and what happened, and also at the same time the music industry was very much stacked against black music in black culture. it is more segregated than it had ever been. you had pop stations that wouldn't play the lifeguard is. mtv which was just about to emerge wouldn't tell a black artist until they were forced to in the michael jackson thriller era and even black on stations like w. bls which was founded in the early part of the 1970s were -- they had it a lot of antipathy towards his music. >> i remember that. >> this book is the story of not just the artists but the people behind those now famous artists who made the famous famous to five behind the scenes, some of them like sylvia robinson, russell simmons, fab 5 freddie

and on for a period of 40 years from 1968 to 2008. to turn this street culture with -- which could've been nothing into something and that is the story wanted to tell in my books. [applause] >> mark johnson you are here on a very personal mission. you have written a story of your father, who was the harlem globetrotters and you call it "basketball slave." now, when most of us, depending on your age, when we think of the harlem love trotters we think of metal mark lemon spinning the basketball. i hate doing sports, okay? but i do my best. spinning the basketball on his sanger and clowning around. they all seemed happy but you called your book "basketball

slave" when referring to the harlem globetrotters. why? >> well, first of all thank you for having me here today so i can tell one of the untold stories that has been mentioned before here. actually what happened is the fact that my father was also one of the first lax in the nba also played for philadelphia. [applause] in covering this story, this was a story again where a lot of these gentlemen never said anything. they just took what they will -- was put in front of them and they just continued on with life. i called a "basketball slave" because it started with me fighting for attention from my father's nba pension. and never really talked about his life in general, but i had to find out certain specifics about his life. as i started going back i started when he was a little boy growing up in north hollywood,

california. he told me mark, he said i never graduated. i said what do you mean you didn't graduate? i knew he was an all-american at the university of portland. he said no, didn't graduate college but i also didn't graduate high school. i was dumbfounded. i said wait a minute, how can you end up in a four year institution like the university of portland without graduating high school? so i pulled this transcript which i did for the book and lo and behold on his college transcript it said he did not graduate. on his portland transcript and showed how the school had erased grades to keep him playing because when he went there, this was at a time when not a lot of blacks were allowed to enter large black colleges. >> what year are we talking about here? >> we are talking about 1960. so when i saw this, in my personal life i worked in a

program. i was an athlete myself but nevertheless i saw a lot of parallels of what was going on with my father in 1952 what is going now in the 2000's. and 2011. you know it is kind of sad because there are so many parallels that are still going on because pretty much this is really supposed to be about education but somehow it is all about sports and it is all about being number one at all in all about not getting paid and unfortunately my father was one of these guys, one of these pioneers that never got paid along with the harlem globetrotters. like he said he usually when you talk about the harlem love trotters they want to know about meadowlark curly and neal. they were the showman of this phenomenal group of men but what people fail to realize and understand was that in 1950 when the nba was created it was not fully open to black ballplayers.

and like i tell people all the time, if these black ballplayers couldn't go into the nba and i say all american, number one in their respective cities, where do you think they played? they played with the harlem globetrotters which was the only team that were allowing these black all players to play. it was almost like they were the dream team of the 1950s. so, on part of that they had to put the personification that they were just a bunch of clowns but in essence they were serious ballplayers. >> and they were also pioneers. >> absolutely. they were pioneers in every sense of the word. i mean here we are talking about a group of men traveling around the world. i mean we have all heard all the other local stories but these were the only black men that were traveling in the early 50s to paris, south america,

all over the world, spreading goodwill and cheer to all these people and that is what really makes it pioneering. >> but where is slave come from? >> this late part comes from, everyone would think that these guys were making tons of money, traveling around the world and seeing the world and yes the owner of the trotters, yes he would take them around the world and yet he showed them different places that they would never see before but unfortunately they didn't get paid. >> the harlem globetrotters did not get paid? >> when i say they didn't get paid, for example they not only played the teams, the washington generals or an opposing team but they were really responsible for playing what they call the college all-american and the college all americans are exactly who they were. group of guys coming up from the number one schools of the united states playing against the harlem globetrotters.

so on tour the college all americans are making more money than the globetrotters were and they were the traveling star attraction team. in essence, they were treated as slaves. if they ever talked back they would send you home. can you imagine not being able to talk back at all and say hey what about my money? you didn't pay me the season. he had a monopoly on all the black all players and like i said they don't play for me where do you think they are going to play? >> carla peterson your book, black gotham, paints an incredible portrait of african-americans in new york city who are doctors, dentists, all professionals. my question is, how did they triumph against the grain? how did they make that transition from being slaves to

being doctors and lawyers and so forth in such a short period of time and contrast that with today when we have people who sometimes take a long time to make the transition from being on the lower economic scales to making the move higher. >> okay, it is a great question. i can describe it and i will try it gets towards an explanation which is always difficult to do. just to set the groundwork, new york was an incredibly, a place filled with racial tension, prejudice and so forth and the number of race riots all culminating in 1862 draft riot which i am sure many of you know about. and the ideology of white supremacy was just in the air all the time, and it is not only from the south coming up but in new york itself. a man by the name of -- who is a

doctor comes out with these templates about inferiority and a separate species. that is the context in which my family and their friends came into being and grew up and actually succeeded. i would say that another context -- one of the things of course is the idea of community and the idea that from the very beginning there were churches, societies and so forth and you know pat buchanan way back then, pathologically disorganized or something like that. from the very beginning, african-americans from the late 18th century on were very well organized groups. i think the key to their success was education and from michael

lomax' talk this morning there is an incredible continuity in the terms of education, hard work and so forth. so, talking about untold stories and what we don't know about is the 19th century origin of the emphasis on education, the emphasis on entrepreneurship. so that everything really started with the education. there was a group of young black men who went to a school called the mulberry street school in the war manhattan and there were 10 or 12 of them who hung together as a group and egg each other on and came to prominence. my great great grandfather was among them. and then another thing that i think is important is as i said before, blacks were mixed in with whites throughout lower manhattan. this had it's advantages and

disadvantages. the disadvantage was racism was thrown in your face on a daily basis. the advantages are that white entrepreneurs and businessmen could recognize black talent and really help you along. that was the case of my great great great grandfather, peter ray, who started out in 1811 as an errand boy for the tobacco company. by the time of his death in 1872, he was the superintendent of the new factory in jersey city. and so they had recognized his talent and recognizing good tobacco leaves and making snuff and had murdered -- nurtured him. >> let me in askew, why aren't these stories that are well-known? when we think of blacks in new york we think of the african burial ground where slaves are buried. we don't hear these kinds of stories. why? >> that it was a question you

had asked as well. one of the things that really interested me was in my family, among my family and their friends, there is a real desire to keep the stories alive, to commemorate, to write newspaper articles, to give celebratory dinners every year, to commemorate with monuments and so forth. and to me there was a cut-off. there seemed to be a cutoff cut off at the turn of -- at the turn of the 20th century at a point when every generation of where new and somehow in the beginning of the 20th century that really kind of stop. there was this kind of forward-looking moment and a desire to leave the 19th century behind. the 19th century was old-fashioned. it was parochial. it had seen slavery and really hard times, so i think in the

harlem renaissance there was this desire to almost clean the slate, to clear and to look for it. >> the last question for you. what did the elite do to help those who were still catching hell? there were plenty of them. okay. >> i didn't mean to fluster you there. >> this is what is known as racial uplift and in academia, is a very hard question and many people like to see it as a very elitist phenomenon where those who are on top are willing to condescend and steve down and help the masses. that is certainly true but on the other hand, racial uplift applies to the league itself. there's no point in which they said well, we reached nirvana and perfection so we don't have to uplift ourselves. it is just those lovely people. there was this continued

emphasis on self-development, a concept that dubos articulates well in the end of his -- the century. the need to develop yourself. in fact it is a continual process. and the last thing that i will say and this is what reminds me somewhat of job is that all of this in the 19th century which is maybe why some of this history is forgotten, takes place in a deeply christian framework. the idea that through all the suffering, the afflictions, whatever, god is on our side. maybe that is what empowered my family and their relatives in the 19th century and maybe that is not here today. you know, don't now but that was a powerful motivator. god is on our side. we are suffering for a reason that we will try him. >> and dr. jones, god was on

job's side. why don't we, when we go through christ, why is a society are we not able to have that faith of job? we read in the headlines every day about how people sell each other out, how people do despicable things to one another. no faith at all in the system, in god. why hasn't that message translated to our present society? >> well, as you see all of my distinguished colleagues here, struggle in a fair amount with everything they are trying to achieve. if you look at job, we always talk about his patience. i propose this question. was he really patients? in the midst of the struggle job said i wish i had never been born. i wish life had never come up on my birth. does that sound like a guy who is patients? but we must take a deep introspection of the situation.

when adversity comes to us, we want to say go next door. cheryl looks great, go to her house. go to craig's house. don't stop here. if adversity knocks on the door we are ready to open the door and have a party. what i found out instead of asking a question, why me? why not me? because in the midst of the struggle you learn something about yourself as you fight come as you tussel, as you wrestle with that situation. job, as he navigated along, he reached a certain point. you know he kept questioning. god, i want to ask you some questions. we always want to go back to the way it was. that was great. when i was on top. we are as want to go back there, but god has a greater purpose for us. king solomon said we must become

skillful in dealing with the things in this world. but in order to become skillful, we don't have to conform to this world. we just have to take a heavenly perspective. now is job continue to move along, to navigate through those smothering ashes of despair, he reached a point where he said, although in slavery i'm going to trust in the. this is what we have to do today. we can't give up. we can't quit and we have to do like apostle paul emphasized. run that race to win. when i was in the midst of what i was dealing with my sickness, the doctor said i would make it. i had to take the printer section of myself. we sometimes want to focus on what sin that i do to get into the situation? lithia job. god said he was perfect, bright. and he feared god.

he was a righteous man put to the test. so i began to develop the ford t's of life. you are going to go through a test. there is going to be a trial. there's going to be tribulation but folks let the encourage you today and inspire you, you can triumph over at all. you don't have to quit. [applause] i feel the story of job is paramount for today, because the only thing you have folks is your integrity and your character. and if you keep a heavenly perspective, you can't lose because we have to remember one thing, sheryl. god is in control. sometimes we want to rely on ourselves. i found out that it wasn't superior to god. when i look at my athletic training, listen to this gentleman story here.

everyone is going through a struggle but we must embrace that heavenly perspective to date today more than ever, folks. satan is alive and well. and he is doing his job, but we don't have to kneel to him because he is already defeated, cheryl. >> okay, deacon jones. [applause] >> craig, how did john baxter taylor deal with those problems that he was faced with at the turn-of-the-century? >> my research indicated that john taylor was a mild-mannered individual. it has to be remembered that this is somebody who was the first generation african-american living in a progressive area. his parents were born slaves. this was a time in history where, to be a second-class citizen as an african-american would would have been a good day. and he emerged through good

fortune. his father, although born into those circumstances, became a mantra for nor and was able to provide a middle-class lifestyle, which was extremely unusual for a black family in america. he attended the best schools. he emerged as a -- and then went on to brown prep which is a school that no longer exists but he gained national notoriety there are on an undefeated relay team. then he went on to the university of pennsylvania and ultimately graduated as a doctor of veterinary medicine. this is somebody who managed to navigate through all of these institutions and these various scenarios without a tremendous amount of confrontation and conflict. >> how did he manage to do that at the turn of the 20th century when so many others are

having a hard time, so many african-americans were having a hard time? >> i think that is one of the most intriguing aspects of his personality because he defies expectation. you know this was a moment in history where you would absolutely not expect a young african-american male to excel both academic he and athletically. we take for granted these days that sports are kind of a natural thing for people of color. but at the time, he was a rarity in track and field as well so this is somebody who manage to stand up and sit and. i think that it was his christian upbringing as well as the force of his character and his talent, his god-given talent that allowed him to transcend the situation and really defy the circumstances that black people faced at that time. >> hey dan, we all hear about

hip-hop stars and we all hear about how they sometimes go from kids in the hood with the self rhyme. they shoot the same and they get a round-trip ticket right back to where they started. how was it that they lose all this money? some of them, not all of them obviously but some of them famously lose everything and when you interview them the first thing they will say is, my music company rob to me. >> i guess we would have to talk about specifically who we are talking about. >> i don't want to name names but i think some of the stories are very famous. you have never heard of such a story? >> well, a lot of artists will just say that. it is true in many senses but it is not true and others. the stories that i focus on are the stories of the folks who won the game.

>> how about the ones who lost because those are the ones that we hear about, the tragic stories of the guys who make music and they tell people i'm not getting a dime of that. their music is being stolen and their rhymes are being stolen. their stuff is in commercials and they are not getting a dime. >> here is why it happens. and here is why hip-hop changed the game a little bit. i actually think it was worse in the age of r&b and even worse than that in the jazz age. it is about ownership. it is about really not giving away your power, not giving away your capital, your intellectual capital. >> but you know a 16-year-old doesn't know that. >> that's right. a 16-year-old doesn't know that a lot of folks had to give earned before they made decisions that were profitable for them. so for the folks who -- let's talk about run dmc. run dmc, no major label was

going to give them a deal so they cut a deal with a small record label in new york, disco label really, called profile records. profile gave them what was a standard deal that they would give annie art is coming to them begging for a deal. they made about 71 cents per record. and after they started selling millions of records they continue to burn at that rate. russell simmons, their manager and rather of joe simmons tried to renegotiate that contract and profile refuse. and, they got into a long drawn out evil battle that basically stopped run dmc's career straight in its tracks. and russell had to learn from that in the deal that he did later on. and it is one of the things that contributed to russell's ability to do better for himself.

but, run dmc really never recovered from that as a recording artist. fortunately they were able to go wanting continued to work -- earners live musicians but they were never able to get back on the train as it moved forward, the musical train come as a move forward. >> why was there so much resistance to hip-hop when it first came out? like you said and you are very accurate, mtv, i mean these guys and girls were superstars in the community like here in one and inner cities all across the country. mtv wouldn't play them. why was that? >> part of it is white supremacy. the music business was incredibly segregated at the time. >> in the 80's? >> in the 80's, that's right. for instance you could have an artist -- how many of you remember chirac? she had a song called i didn't mean to turn you on.

it was on all black stations across america on the r&b charts but pop stations listened to that record and they said well we can play this. it is too black. they could say that actually not go to jail. and, a british rock star named robert palmer came and we made that song about a year later and suddenly the pop stations that wouldn't listen to sharon made robert palmer go to number two in the pop charts. that was 1983. the same year i think that you know, michael jackson was for starting to make and roads on mtv. so that is the first part. the second part unfortunately was a bit of a generational war between what you might call the civil rights generation and the hip-hop generation and i think there were folks -- the background is there were independent black businesses in the 1960s that promoted and

distributed r&b. there were independent radio stations but a lot of them got bought up at corporations in the 1970s. suddenly the place for the black music executive was working for these larger corporations. they had bought into that system. buying into that system meant going to work and participating in the crossover business where you have your artist and you try to have them sweeten it up, lighten it up a little bit so maybe the pop station will play it. and, hip-hop was what they called rap music at the time was the antithesis of that. it was street. guys have basically been trying to get away from it in their professional lives for biggest reasons and not unfairly. i don't want to be unfair to them, but you know that is why he run dmc couldn't get a deal that columbia records. it took run dmc's success to

finally turn around and say russell we think you are very smart. we want to do a deal with you but russell never dressed up to go to any of those meetings. russell came the way he always came communist acres, in his genes in his argyle sweater and still does to this day and about hip-hop represented was we are coming as i was. we are not going to change her music for mainstream consumption as a matter fact history showed that the mainstream likes our music. we don't have to change. they ended up being right. >> can i ask you a personal question? tell me about the origin of your love of hip-hop. were you raised with it? pie grew up in an interesting place called columbia maryland which is halfway between baltimore and washington. [laughter] some of you know a little about baltimore and washington with the cities are like. suburban maryland was an interesting place i think for lots of kids who grew up that more -- no more so than a place

called columbia because columbia was for a suburb in the 1970s pretty integrated along class and -- lines alike lots of suburban kids i grew up listening do you know, pop music but you know i also listen to howard university radio. >> and that is how your love of hip-hop group? >> i wasn't the only one. >> we know you aren't the only one. [laughter] we know there are a whole lot of you in the closet listening to hip-hop. [laughter] [applause] let me ask you this, dan. jay-z, sean combs, 50-cent, russell simmons spun their hip-hop careers into zillionaires. they have chloe and lines. they have music. they have alcohol names, you name it. why is it you only have a handful of these hip-hop artists

that were able to do this, especially jay-z? what is the secret to jay-z's astronomical success and why was he able to do it versus all the other guys who some may argue for more talented than him? >> a lot of it has to do -- jay-z has his artistic mind and he also has a business mind. he has the soul of an artist and the mind of the killer. and capitalism that is what it is. you have to be strong. part of jay-z's success had to do with a guy named dane dean -- who is a native of harlem who in many ways taught jay-z about the same sense of entitlement. i am going to own stuff. i'm not going to sell it out. i am going to put a name on it. a famous story is early on in jay-z's career they go to this

jeans company, iceberg jeans. iceberg jeans says jc is not the kind of artist that we want to be involved with. and so dane says okay, fine. i will tell you what. i'm going to start my own clothing company and put you out of business. that was rocca wear. long after thereafter when they parted ways that company became jay-z's retirement plan basically. but it was dane's sense of entitlement and dane's does -- not business sense abrupt often jay-z. when rocca wear sold, when a record company sold, sold for $20 million per growth two years later the company sold for $200 million. >> is it still hot? >> some would say not as hot as before but it is still there are.

>> thank you. before i go to you mark, do you have questions for our wonderful panel? we will have you line up. we have a microphone there. this is europe to need to get on national television, c-span's booktv. while you prepare your questions please line up to get your chance. mark, get your book is called "basketball slave." your dad was one of the first in the nba, crack? >> that is correct. >> what would he think about his time in the nba where i'm assuming he probably made pennies versus now, where nba players are making so much money, hundreds of millions of dollars? >> what would he think about this now? would he be pleased or would he say gee i wish that was me? >> well, you know, i think he would say like a lot of these guys say, that they feel as though they came along at the wrong time in their careers.

i have never heard them -- and when i talk about them i am talking about all of the 360 globetrotters who played before 1960 and my father was included in that, where they loved the people and young guys getting the opportunity to number one, show their talents because it was the thing where it wasn't only just money. it was talent. just look back a little bit. whenever anybody watches nba tv or -- they always flashback in a flashback to wilt chamberlain and bill russell but that is the only people they really flashback to. those guys didn't come into the league until closer to 1960, so what happens to these guys that played between 1950 in 1960? all of these guys. there weren't a lot of them. there was just a handful, but

these guys that were allowed to play, they weren't allowed to play their game. they were allowed to score. remember my father telling me one time that he was not allowed to score the ball. what do you mean? i thought was the name of the game. let's look back into time. all the franchise players between 1950 and 1960 were white. >> how much did your dad make when he joined the nba? >> $6000. >> wow. do you think the zen bri stars today with all their playing and commercials are grateful for people like andy johnson? >> i don't think they are because they don't know. >> how could they not know? >> the story is not out there. even my book, this was a self-published project but it is a matter of getting it one person at a time. the masses don't know about what the harlem globetrotters who traveled around the world making

two or $300 a month playing every day, sometimes two or three times a day. it even on sundays. as i travel around i have a schedule and 1955 where the globetrotters left may 22 and they came back august 22. there was not one day they had off. we are talking about traveling leningrad, switzerland, europe, nonstop. >> did you try to reach out and a current nba players for your book? >> i have. i have gone the circuit. i've gone to the nba all-star but it is a matter of really being able to sit down and explain what went on. some guys are up here now where you feel as though we know about the history but they really don't know about the history. they have no idea of. >> do you think they care, with all their money? [laughter] >> the audience says no. okay, we are going to turn to --

of harlem. >> a great panel. i want to first of all state that it is great we are having a discussion where we aired it period where people can discuss race. we have progressed from that of people are trying to -- [inaudible] when he discussed the music industry really, i wanted to know do you really think we have progressed that much in music? i remember mtv wouldn't show rap videos that they would show the beastie boys and they would show fishbone but they would have the red hot chile peppers on their and now we have people who hate rap music but m&m is a genius, the best rapper in a well. do you think we have passed that elvis mentality? >> that is a good question. >> you have to coined that

phrase. [applause] >> i would answer your question yes and no. i mean in some ways we have been in some ways we haven't. it is not an easy question to answer. it is very easy to pointed eminem and people say he is a genius and he sells tens of millions of records but jay-z is it better -- bigger artists and eminem is. in many ways in the early r&b era where you could have all these black r&b artist toiling in obscure deanne elvis coming in and being everything, and the hip-hop era you know it didn't go down quite like that. the stage is shared and yes i do think eminem, one of the reasons eminem is so huge is because of white privilege but at the same time i think you have a generation that knows what this music is and where it came from. and that, most white kids who

have an eminem poster on their wall probably also like jay-z and may have the jay-z poster on their wall. so what is not cut and dried. we are not in any kind of post-racial era and won't be in a post-racial era until we can be comfortable with not being in a post-racial era. do you know what i'm saying? like you said until we can talk about race and be comfortable with the multiracial and multicultural character of our country. there is no post. >> alright, the next question. >> good afternoon. my name is cecilia and i am working with an author, margaret wilkerson who is working on a biography of lorraine hansberry. this is this is a writing and research question for everyone on the panel. i just wanted to know what you r writing process was like and how you went about getting your information and putting it

together and maybe some of the -- i know for me it has been an -- it is amazing to be a part of this kind of process and looking at how things that you look for just kind of come to you. sometimes when he didn't expect it and i also wondered if you had situations like that? >> carla, why don't you take that one. >> that was my biggest challenge so it took me 11 years to write this book and a lot of it was because of the writing and not so much the research. the research was difficult in and of itself. i started about 1795 and i ended 1895. so we are talking a long time ago. much of the research i did at the schomberg and i am eternally grateful to the schomberg because in fact this building holds my family's history so that was really wonderful. so i decided to write about the 19th century. i was really interested in

northern black culture generally, but before the civil war i wanted to write a book or a general audience and i decided family was a good hook. everybody has got a family. whether you know who they are or not. when i started on the very first page of my book i come to the schomberg and i go upstairs and i check everything and i talked to the library and so they -- people say you are not going to find anything. it is like a needle in a haystack. so when i first thought about doing the book because i am an academic and actually in the english department, but it was going to be a kind of morbid institutional history and just where i found my family memories. i would tuck them in, right? and i actually had an agent who was like no, no, no. that is not going to work.

the driving force of my book, it is like a detective story. i start with one name, that of my great great rand father, great-grandfather, philip augustus white and the a whole story about him. it is unhelpful to have an ancestor named white. so, and basically. >> i'm sorry, why? >> because you go into a database and you put in white. everything comes up. everything comes at. >> i didn't know if that was a loaded example there are. [laughter] mark johnson what was your writing process? >> my writing process was literally just one page at a time. >> did your father leave you lots of documentation? >> he left me some, but a lot of that i had to go out and research on my own. i had access because of who my father was. i had access to certain people

which helped tremendously, which helped. the other thing is that when i first started the book it was more or less, it was something i felt as though i had to do not only for my father but all these other men that have really lost their voice along the way. so that was the two things to get me motivated and unfortunately i lost my father halfway through this project so i knew i had to finish it. >> you did it for him. dan, what was your writing process? you had a lot of volume. >> yes, 660 pages. a lot of late nights, for years over 300 interviews and many cups of coffee and not without the complete support of my lovely wife, dr. wendy s. walters who took care of our child in a nights while i was in the library over at columbia. >> dan, let me ask you this. what position do you take

ultimately? that is the big cats or the struggling hip-hop artists? who do you side more with in this book? >> this book follows small guys who became big guys. >> so who do you identify with? who are you feeling more? who do you have empathy for? >> i don't know. i don't look at it that way. i mean you know russell simmons is a big guy but he started from nothing. he came from a lower middle-class family. his father worked for the city. i think his mother might've worked for the city as well. you know, he saw an opportunity and he took it. he bet on himself in a bad lummis culture. he didn't sell out until he actually did sell out. many years later when he sold his businesses. but, many people could look at somebody like russell or

somebody like jay-z and say they have everything but they came from nothing. >> they did struggle. >> can we go to the next question please? we have limited time. i am sorry. if you don't mind. time is not on our side, but thank you. don't take personal, honey. thank you. >> my name is -- and i'm writing a book about hip-hop. icy hip-hop in many ways is being destroyed by capitalism and white superior power. [inaudible] he is controlled by a bigger force. we have got to take control of our power and not allow others to destroy our destiny.

[inaudible] he understands what hip-hop really means. >> dan, what is your response? >> i can see what you are saying. hip-hop is and what it was because he did get embraced by capitalism and capitalism in america changes everything. it defaces everything but i mean, hip-hop is as much a victim of that as anything else. do you know what i'm saying? people like to blame hip-hop for misogyny and violence and materialism but all of those things are products of america. if any subculture becomes mainstream it is going to adopt those american values. it just offends me when people sort of put those on hip-hop as as if hip-hop invented them, when american invented them really. [applause]

>> thanks for having me. i have a lot of questions. >> we can only do one my friend. >> it is for this is to write there. >> carla peterson. >> yes maam. how do you feel about people giving a ownership to harlem now saying that the neighborhood is being taken over? do you feel that we should go back downtown where we were originally from? in tribeca? [laughter] i am from harlem by the way. >> i think you should buy property wherever you can basically. so i wrote a little article that is supposed to come out in "the daily beast" and they have been promising it for months and it hasn't. and it is titled something like what is black new york? and the point that i make there

is harlem as we know it, i.e. of the first half of the 20th century, has created its own myth of black people living in a really very dense segregated area where they have lived and worked and play together, community institutions and so forth and get there for that and now i have to say now, blacks are spread all over the city. harlem is becoming more integrated, which is what it was, not before, but which lower manhattan was before and populations like in brooklyn, areas of brooklyn, queens etc., are increasing in black population. one of the things they think is that the harlem model which is a great model but it doesn't represent black new york, the model that we think of as the black mecca in the first half of

the 20th century. what do i think? i honestly, i don't know. i don't know. people should be able to live where they want with the money they have and so forth but i am not a sociologist. i can pretend to say where i think that people should live. >> next question. [applause] >> good afternoon. i am also from harlem and my question is to the two jumps them and the left. when i think of your book "basketball slave" i think of what is going on now with basketball. it is currently, what is the word i'm looking for? it is a lockout that is currently taking place but it is not too much ownership on the player side. it also makes me think of the music industry. it there are only about four major record companies, universal, warner, e1 and

another one, sony. there's not too much ownership in that is well within the black community in general so i'm wondering how can we move toward that angle and it seems like even in the music industry, even though i know your book is a big payback it seems like a lot of the artists and celts are still slaves in that sense, how he puts it is in his book in the nba but how can we move towards getting around that? ..

>> i mean people got mad at lebron james when he walks away from cleveland. he walked away from his owner. there was a sense of ownership that he they had while he was playing there. it's up to him if he's able to move as a free agent to miami, l.a., whenever, that should be his choice. but whatever is that because we are so used to people owning everything, then we are settling. that's one the problems now. a lot of these so-called millionaires are fighting the billionaires. they are just millionaires. they are not the billionaires. they are not the owners. you can count, like you said, there's four. i would ask you to count how many minorities own sports

franchises. >> how many? >> one. >> wow. >> bob johnson. that's right of charlotte. >> and to take that lock out, metaphor into this, only reason hip hop happened is because of a lockout; right? hip hop was locked out of the club, radio stations, record stores, locked out of the record companies. that's why all of these guys could create their own companies. that's lockout really continued into the mid '90s. that's when corporations starting turning around. maybe we can do business. right? what has happened now is you've had a few of these guys want to really make it up and make their net worth into the -- you know, almost a half billion range. most of them sold the companies they created. the fear i have for the future,

your kanye, drake, wayne, nicki minaj, they don't have entrepreneur minds. now they have more mainstream access. they go right on the hop radio. hip hop is treated as pop. they are worked for 30 years to make it so. what happens when you don't have independent institutions? what happens when the other institutions that are making those decisions are those mainstream institutions? the sad fact that you allude to is that black capitalism, as it turns out is not black nationalism. black capitalism is to aggrandize a few. the only way to turn it into black cab -- capitalism is to retain the ownership. it's hard in society. all capitalist eventually sell and go public. what's what it is.

it is a very, very long and what sad tale. >> thanks, dan. next question. >> thank you very of. my name is marilyn may. three of the panelist noticed the christian upbringing in the success of your family. i want to acknowledge that. we often forget how important the faith has been to the success stories of all of the people, of many of the people that you've talked about. i am a want to be author. i recently did a book called a stone of help, stoneofhelpharlem.org. it's about my church, and how i grew up. my question is about the idea of getting the story out. when you are not in in -- when u want to own your own story. it's publishing version of what you were just talking about with the music industry and with the sports. see i wanted you to talk to me

about the publishing side. we have stories. i don't have a platform. i can't get on tv. so i don't have a platform. what's what they tell me. >> great. good question. >> okay. i self-published my book. that was a sen year piece of work. of dedicated work, sacrifice, prayer, and meditation. everybody's story is different. you have to be in a capitalistic society, you have to be aggressive. you have to do your research and homework. you can make it with all of the modern technology. you can focus on those things, twitter, facebook, your own web site, and also using your connections so say hey, i've

written a book. you have to be motivated to go out here. right now my wife and i are on a 66 city tour. we self-finance. [applause] [applause] we self-financed our tour. i wanted to self-public. most of the times the big companies don't want to take you on. that's all part of the capitalistic structure up. don't have to fall prey to that. it depends in your heart. what has god put in your heart for you to be and become? because he opens the doors. not man. [applause] [applause] >> one more point i want to make to you. i spent a career in the banking, in the upper echelon part, i don't know, lower level. i've heard all of the men here talk about the capitalistic thing and slavery. i want to say to you, i'm glad i'm a descendant of slavery. i'm glad.

i'm proud of it. [applause] >> i felt the deepest form of slavery i had to face was my father. he was tough, rigid, unyielding, and a successful businessman. even my grandfather, very successful man. i grew up in durham, north carolina. durham was called at that time, the black wall street. we own our own pharmacies, and farmers bank. you are talking about the mutual life insurance, mutual statements and loans. i grew up around black doctors. if people being successful. when i'm saying i'm glad to hear about the hip hop guys doing their things, all of the great jazz artists. i wanted to focus on one thing today. you can be whatever you want to be. [applause] >> you don't have to rely, i hear this a lot of times. people were like maybe the caw cushion -- caucasian sector is holding me back. the devil is holding me back. when you get the education, you can be as successful as you want

to be. the foundation is get a good education. you've got to get a good education. [applause] [applause] >> too many -- if i may, too many people, black folks, they dropping out of school. it's the right thing to do. that's not the right thing to do, folks. too many people paid a heavy price with their life for us to get an education. what i'm saying to you today, you may say we don't own sports franchise. is that the best investment? think about it. you see all of the billionaires that own sports franchises. it's the second or third thing. it's like a certain comfort. you know, a certain gainsmanship. see, we have to focus on what does -- what does the desires that god wants you to be? this is what i want to tell you. folks, we were a slave for sin; right? we lived in sin. but one man came to give us the

blessed hope. if we keep that focus up high, i'm telling you today, i'm a prime example. i came up in the tough '60s. i help integrate schools in the south. martin luther king. he set an example for all of us to follow. you can't rely, this is no disrespect for certain people in ask -- academia. you have get your own knowledge. sometimes they put things out there to make you think things you don't have to think. keep a heavily secured perspective. god has opened doors for you you can't imagine. you don't have to come up and say caucasian is holding me back, capitalism is holding you back. folks, there's only one economy, the economy of god. >> okay, dr. jones. [applause] [applause] [cheers and applause] >> all right. we're going to take an offering

now. we're going to pass the plate. pass the hat. i got time for one more question. i have two minutes. janet? >> yes. my name is janet banks. i'm happy to be here. >> two minutes, janet. >> the panel has inspirational. my question is after being a teacher for 50 years and pioneering in integrating in mississippi, i want to know what other organization, other than the naacp, what organizations are trying to get publicking companies to include the contribution. because this is how students relate. i've been there for 50 year. i know we need to get what you say, cheryl, 200,000 colored men in the truths. we need to know that. i assist six children. in school opinion they did not know that. how can we get that information

and get you in the textbook? >> craig, do you want to take that? you got 30 seconds. then we got to wrap it up. >> i have to be honest with you, i don't know beyond the naacp or congressional black caucus who is carrying that torch. what i can say is from my point of view, the ownous is on us to tell our own story. there's no culture that relies on another culture. you don't see people from china waiting for americans to tell their story. we have to tell our own stories. it's by any means necessary. it's a brave new world, stepping back to the last question. publishing industry is transforming right before our eyes. and the avenues are there for you. social media, youtube, the force of your creativity and

personality and tenaciousness. it's a thing that comes from within, not without. >> you need it in the regular textbooks and in the regular curriculum. we have an african-american history month. sure. how can we get it in the regular curriculum? that should not be so difficult? >> i think it's a matter of activism. i think it's a matter of, you know, for us to embrace the story that we love, the stories that we value, the stories that project the image and values that we hold, and to get involved with your school system and the decision makers and petition, call, write letters, be tenacious. make it happen. >> thank you. >> i apologize to all. i apologize to all. wonderful questions. 30 seconds for each of our panelist. why should people buy your book? carla? [laughter] >> 30 seconds.

you just used five laughing. >> look at her. >> i am a fervent believer we have to know our history. somebody this morning said we have to revel in our history. in order to revel in it, we have to know it. people have talked about untold stories and their -- there are so many untold stories out here just down the line, untold stories. my family is one of them. they are no different than your family. you can go to the archive, find out your family history, so in that sense, i hope my book is a source of information for you. but as people have been saying, if we don't start getting our stories out, nobody else is going to do it for us. i'm convinced once we do get it out, we're not only telling a new african-american history, but we'll be telling a new american history. >> wonderful. dr. jones, why should people buy your book? >> the story of joe is something

that everybody can relate to. when the flood waters come, fall into the deep land fill. president story of job that i've written that the lord has put in my heart is one to encourage and inspire you. no matter how dark it may appear or seem, the blessed hope upstairs is going to always be the force that can bring you through. i feel the book will be a blessing to you as my wife and i go across the united states. people are being blessed, encouraged, i don't think it's about me. it's what's believe the two covers of this book that will encourage and inspire you. >> great. craig. >> i've always gravitated to stories of heros. heroic stories convey what we

think of ourselves and informed the world what to think of us. it's through stories like john taylor through the talent, character, and tenacity, that's my favorite word today, and provide what's possible under the most extreme circumstances. this is one of those stories. >> dan? >> i'm glad i brought enough money to buy all of their books. even with all of the well known and well talked about flaws, hip hop is a great american success story. it tells how it happened and the people that made it happen. they are fascinating stories. these are heros. all of them flawed.

but you can discover why they did what they did. why did jay-z make the choices? >>why do some artists win and se lose? that's the story. but mostly as a great american story. >> it is a great american story. dan, thank you. and mark? >> my father said to me one day, my high school and college used me, the pros sold me, i was a basketball slave. and i'm sure there's a lot of athletes out here that after they've gone through the gamut and see where they ended up, they look back on their life and see a lot of similarities. the book not only talks about the harlem globetrotters, my father, but going through a struggle and being part of an international team that everyone knows about. and ending up, as a matter of fact, one of the other quotes that said basketball is a game

of life. and god is the referee. that's how he looked at life. of on it this, i must say this. most the stories about the heroesing suffered some kind of alcoholism, drug problem, or something like that. my father wasn't that way. he raised six kids. we all stress education. >> you are a testament for that. thanks, mark. let's hear it for the panel. thank you for being here. thank you for your excellent question. i apologize for what i had to cut off. there's a book signing text to the tend. please support the fabulous authors. thank you. >> authors on the african-american history and autobiography panel.

booktv will continue with the final panel of the day, discussion of the first years of the obama administration. and you are watching booktv's live coverage of the 13th annual harlem book fair. >> what are you reading this summer? booktv wants to know. tell us what you are reading this summer. send us a tweet at booktv.