we enjoyed having you. thank you. it was a wonderful presentation. good night, everybody. >> thanks for coming out. >> that was michael brown, former rector of the federal emergency management agency. for more inflation, visit his web site, michaelbrowntoday.com. former mexican foreign minister jorge cstaneda has written another book, many on forever it is called. senor, i want to start with the subtitle. mexico and the mexicans. where were you going with the subtitle? >> basically what i am trying to do is to tell the story of mexico and its people for an american reader although i am also publishing the book simultaneously in spanish in the united states or spanish-speaking readers in

mexico called tomorrow or the day after tomorrow and it's being published simultaneously in mexico in spanish in another version which is also just come out this very week in mexico and the purpose is to tell the story mainly to americans but also to mexicans in the united states and mexicans and mexico. >> what storage? >> the story of the mexicans are, what we were, we are now and why we are what we are doesn't really work anymore but what the country has become and why we have to change. >> what kind of change? >> basically it is a national character change. what i try to do in this book is to take four or five very well detected traits of the mexican national character described by the classic authors like anthropologists in the middle of

a century, americans for example like oscar lewis and others and say okay, these character traits, which were great for mexico over the last 500 years both as a colony and in independent agency. the formulation is the are totally dysfunctional to what the country has become, a middle class society, a representative democracy, an open economy, globalized economy, and a country that is absolutely desperate for the establishment of the rule of law. the character traits and these features don't work anymore. they are at odds. so since we can't change the reality, we've got to change people's head. >> let's start with the mexican middle class. >> which one was the mexican middle class today? >> there's nothing wrong with the middle class. what's wrong with its members to continue to be incredibly

individualistic. the first chapter of the book is a chapter about mexican individualism, which even by u.s. standards is outrageous. it's excessive. mexico is a country with less collective or dissociative participation than any country in latin america, let alone the united states or western europe. we are a country that have never won anything in team sports but are good at individuals, boxers, runners, walkers, bullfighters, golfers. when you're a country where people don't like to live in high rises because they don't believe it is their home, they want their home on the ground level which means the city's stretchout endlessly at cost a fortune. we are a country where there are no collective action suits. the notion itself doesn't exist. we are a country of leaders of

movements. marcos, the uprising commander of 15 years ago. we are not a country of movements and process these. being so individualistic is great, except when 60% of your society is middle class then it doesn't work anymore. >> senior castaneda how would you describe the relationship between mexico and the united states? >> what i try to do in this book when i had a long chapter devoted both to the relationship of the united states and the mexican national character of introspection obsession with the past, fear of the foreign, and i try to explain why a country that is so tied to the united states can no longer continue to be a country that often sounds

off against the united states loudly. i give you an example back from 2004 or from 2003 in the city that you know well in guadalajara where the u.s. and mexico were competing for participation in the athens olympic soccer competition at the mexico stadium in guadalajara. the american players had been perhaps a bit aggressive, but all of a sudden through the end of the game, the crowd starts chanting and dismay concern some of our american people who are watching us. osama, osama. needless to say the american players got a little bit upset. now this would be insulting anywhere in the world, but in guadalajara it's worse because

mexico's number one sending states of immigrants to the united states and has been for a hundred years. it's the home of one of our most important if not the most important resort city in mexico. it's the whole month for probably 5400 retirees and in guadalajara itself we spend a wonderful time and are extraordinarily well received by the mexican neighbors and friends. in this city at this time, to be that insulting to americans means there is something going on that isn't right. it doesn't work. that's part of the problem in the relationship with the united states. now we have got the drug war, which the united states is helping but not enough. >> you described those as on winnable.

>> absolutely. it's the ridiculous war. we should not have started it. we will never be able to win. it has now cost us more than 40,000 lives, more than $50 billion. widespread human rights abuses, and a tremendous damage to mexico's image abroad with no results to show an exchange. there is nothing that can be done with drugs in mexico as long as the united states keeps consuming what it consumes and it hasn't changed its consumption patterns. probably there is no reason it shouldn't. i was a strong proponent of the proposition 19 in california last november. i had hoped it would pass, legalizing marijuana in the state of california. it didn't pass. it lost by three points. i'm hopeful that in 2012, it will pass and then we in mexico can also begin a process of

legalization of drugs starting with marijuana. >> president calderon is conducting this war in mexico. is it time for him to end this? >> ki unfortunately will not because he is too stubborn. he has taken this as a personal battle of his own. he's all alone in this battle. the rest of the government does not follow him, but he has only got a year and a half left. so it doesn't really matter anymore except the people who will continue which is not a minor what he does. the next president will have to end this absurd war which is going nowhere. >> how open is the mexican economy? >> the point i try to make in the fourth chapter of this book is that we now have a mexican economy which is one of the most ultimate economies in the world, far more open than the united states than any latin american economy along with chile and

similar to most european economies. the sum of exports and imports over gdp is one of the highest there are, one in 50%. we are a country where tourism is enormously important. it's the number one generator of hard currency and a number one employer in mexico where committed cents from mexican immigrants abroad are a very important source of currency. and also, by the way, with the country where there are more u.s. non-military nationals living than any other country in the world are not a million americans living in mexico, which is more than anyplace else in the whole world. this open economy, which has been a good thing by and large, not as good as many people thought it would be, and perhaps not as beneficial as many expected, but it's been a good thing in general terms. it's also very much concentrated

with the states, the united states. 90% of our exports go to the u.s.. 90% of our oil goes to the u.s.. 90% tourists that visit mexico come from the u.s. and so on and so forth. all of our immigrants are in the u.s. by definition. it's a very open economy. so mexico cannot be an introspective closed off character. we can't have this mexican way of being in our mind when in our everyday life we are an open economy. >> i want to return, senor castaneda about mexican xeonophobia. with the growing middle class in mexico, has that changed? >> we are still very much interest in this year of the foreign notion that we've always

been victims of the past or foreigners in the past that we were conquered by the spanish in 1519 come 1521, and the following three centuries then during the 19th century we had texas taken away from us in 1836 in the united states invade this in 1847, then the french invaded us in 1963. then the americans invaded us again in 1914 and so on and so forth. as a matter of fact, all these factoids are more complicated than they seem, but in any case what i try to say in this book in this chapter is let's move on and leave all of that behind us and look to the future and more importantly, look to put the country has become. look to the mañana or 12 million mexicans who live in the united

states. one out of every nine mexican citizens in the world lives in the united states. that is a greater share in the world except for el salvador and ecuador which are very small countries. as i said, a million americans live in mexico. 300 million cross the border back-and-forth every year. why do we want to dwell on the past when we are so open and it's beneficial to the country to leave it open? but we are obsessed with it. we have a very strange situation in mexico. it's one of the anecdotes i write about. we have laws that are a series of government jobs and elected positions to naturalized mexican, naturalized mexican cannot be an ambassador, consul, member of the cabinet, governor,

mayor, police chiefs, a member of the board of the central bank, she can't be a congressman or a senator so we are in the subsurface situation, we mexicans, where on the one hand we demand rightfully rights for mexicans in the u.s. whether they came to believe we demand full rights for them. but the mexican american spanish drizzly in chinese, whatever. it's a situation which can't go on. >> jorge castaneda served as foreign minister of mexico from 2000 to 2002 working with the president talks at the time. how much of your time as foreign minister when dealing with the u.s. did you spend? first of all, how much of your time was spent dealing with the u.s. command of that time, how

much was spent dealing on the immigration issue? >> with any foreign mexican minister is going to spend up to 70, 75% of his time dealing with the u.s.. we have a few other important relationships in the world. obviously guatemala because we have a border with them. some countries in western europe, mainly spain and some countries in latin america, mainly chile, and with cuba we have always the longstanding and often conflicting relationship, cano also. but 75% of any mexican foreign minister signed who's devoted to the u.s. and i've tried to devote as much time as i could to immigration because i fought and continue to think this is mexico's single most important issue with u.s. but by the way i think that it's also the united states single most important issue with mexico. there are even or 12 million mexican citizens residing in the

u.s. quote there are more than 30 million mexicans in the u.s., there are important states in the u.s. by california, texas, arizona, nevada, illinois where mexicans make up a very significant part of the electorate or the population at large. it is a central issue and it's a reason that has to be addressed that nobody wants to address forthrightly. >> how should it be addressed? >> it should be addressed the way that we sit back and 2001 and 2002 with my good friend former secretary steve colin powell away president bush and fox wanted to address and the way president obama wants to address it now. legalize the people here without papers, establish a migrant worker for people to continue to enter the united states as the u.s. economy needs their labor

support and help the areas with mexico where the migrants come from so that they start stating in their home towns of less they are needed in the u.s.. and once that you have done that, ensure that the u.s.-mexican border is in the open to the legal entry with the cooperation of both countries to make that entry legal. but you can't stop the entries unless you increase the number of illegal entries and if not you have people flying over the fence or under the fence or swimming across the moat with alligators like president obama said a few days ago. >> jorge castaneda, what are you doing today? >> i spend about one-third of my year at the city i teach at nyu. i've been teaching there now for 14 years and until further i was in government. i spend a lot of time in mexico like during and speaking all over the country trying to put forward ideas.

i double in politics, and i write a lot. i'm not sure how well but certainly i write a lot and i would be doing fine. >> mañana forever is the name of the book and here's the english version to be sold in the united states. here's the spanish-language version to be sold in the united states and finally, here is the version to be sold in mexico. why is there a different cover on the mexican version? >> for two reasons colin quote i like the mexican cover for the u.s., but the people at knopff said it was somber and the cover in mexico has an arguable legal status because if you can look back on a to see the mexican ego is divided into. this is the center of the mexican flag. you've got the top of the

egullet the bottom and at the bottom of the eagle at the top. and in mexico, distorting the national emblem and the flag is a dubious legal status. so we've decided not to risk it. >> we are back to the mexican version. what is this on the cover? >> this is a person i consider to be and most people consider to be mexico's foremost artist today. it's been an extraordinary mural for the mexican supreme court and these are five or six kids who are migrants. they are about ready to leave for the united states and lives on the bottom right hand corner the license plate on the truck says mit migrant 666. heitor realist things and these are six or seven kids with extraordinary days is about to

leave for of subtitle of the book in the spanish indicates. >> this is c-span booktv. we've been talking with jorge castaneda, author of mañana for ever. >> when i began working for the prospect they said it was probably one of the topics that i got the most interest in and the most questions about and even still today i could still kind of tell what it meant to people and how important it was to people and the timing worked out because it was undergoing a renovation that is actually pretty close to being done today. as of the interest was a fever pitch.

>> can you describe their brand of the shopping center as follows its importance to chicago and its suburbs beginning in the early 1960's? >> welcome it was definitely a big first. there was a lot of unique features and really we hadn't seen shopping centers built on a grand scale with so much attention to detail and religious kinds of imposing architecture. it was very important to the northwest suburbs it was a condition of the fact that this area was a boom town, just growing rapidly in one of the more important areas of chicago at that time, kind of the case i make in the book is it represented a lot of first soon shopping center building and what we would know as malls today and it's important to be a case study to sort of talk about all shopping centers and all malls and how they've developed the best analogy i used reimbursed in the floodgate.

>> predictor referred to as the father of the shopping mall. what features or design elements were considered unique at the time of its construction? >> well, victor was just an amazing story, and there is a wonderful biography about him where i obtain most of my information. he was a holocaust refugee who came from vienna in 1939 to america, and it was said that one of the things that influenced the most was central park and broadway and was kind of the juxtaposition about how one was used by the public free of charge and broadway was used by the public definitely as capitalism mission if you will so he cut the two elements in the shopping center that was arguably his latest achievement and a realization. a very unique feature was its

triangular design according to the promotions of for supposed to minimize the walking distance between the stores it was the first time there were more than two anchor stores in the center and the amount of the sculpture of the work of the aesthetic pieces you literally invest hundreds into the public it was definitely supposed to be a public space in addition to the bonding that would be going on. >> what we did a local attraction in chicago during the the 1960's and 70's? you mentioned public art, the size and scope of it, but anything in particular that really drew visitors to it? >> i would say kind of building on these things, just the size of it. the 200-ton dome to read if you

visit it it wouldn't appear to be in and presence place but was making headlines all over the country. and again, the public art was a big draw as well as just a bushehr size of it. >> the political establishment of chicago is it to promote the development of the shopping mall? >> i didn't really find much about the political establishment in chicago, i would say that if it happened at all they would have to give it their blessing but i can tell you that the political establishment in the prospect was very supportive of its. they still are. i mean, it is by far the deutsch biggest to the taxpayer and allows more time and construction to kind of rise ahead of all of the other competing suburbs in this area to really provide a lot of services to people to lower the property tax which was a big point for anyone looking to move in the suburbs you have the

choice of dhaka in the suburbs and the prospect was able to stand out because of the parameters. >> what if any on the shopping center as well as the chicago communities and the 1970's and into the 1980's as well. >> and as i say in the book was built about 5 miles away from randhurst and it wasn't just what field that had an impact it was malls and shopping centers springing up everywhere in the 70's and 80's, and what my research has led me to was that going back to the prospect biggest to the taxpayer and was able to the services to the tax revenues other communities solve this and they were for lack of a better term very jealous so

their solution was to build their own shopping centers and our own malls, with their huge what field or counter developments it was the essentially just that we try to keep the tax revenue and citizen shopping in our own communities. >> were there any efforts by randhurst shopping center with the increased competition in its surrounding communities to reinvent itself with there being larger shopping centers or you're shopping centers in the chicago area? >> definitely. you see almost at the front the one that started changing. the retail has always been and always will be business that drives on change that is you are required for the change to be successful and you cannot sit idly so even before the huge competition can randhurst was trying to keep itself fresh and relevant and attract customers

and there were developments between one going out today the first occurred around 77 from 78 to commemorate the center's and the 15th anniversary in which he saw kind of the institutional remodel, a lot of kind of white tiles, white ceiling tiles, kind of a what we would now consider a philanderer model and then again in 1980's, around 1984 winter rous corporation took over the center, they did some major changes and there's a lot of language in the book where they are critiquing this original design and going on about how we are outdated and terrible as it is so i think that represents just retail and the changes that need to be me and kind of what is in fashion now will not be in fashion to marlo but may in fact be in fashion again ten or 20 years from now. >> thank you very much for your

time. >> of course there were other interesting stories that came about with the city concerning the performing arts center. i tried to be a big supporter for the arts community but i will never forget in 1977 to 76i got a call from some business people in the city who said to you know him and i'd never met him. his real name was dario he and the ocean state theater time they said he wants to tear that place down. they said well, could you call him and make it a point convince him not to tear it down? why do you think i do that? because your italian. >> that's real sensitive. >> i made a point to see him at his house and lincoln i will never forget going up in a big car these german shepherds came

at me and i said to the cop went on to go read the doorbell, what you mean are you nuts? [laughter] so he finally came up and put the dogs down and he invited the dogs in the house so we started talking and went out for dinner and i gave him a clue as to why he shouldn't to the theater and he was eating his suit and said deutsch do me a favor? i said yes. he said give me a demolition permit. i said you wouldn't tear that theater down. he looked at me and said have you ever heard of the [inaudible] yeah, i tore that one down. >> you mean business. >> so i convinced him to come to my office monday but his lawyer has since passed away, and i said we can't put him on the same room with a bill miller and all these other people because they hated each other and so, he said okay. so he went over and negotiated a deal and the city ended up putting a lot of money in it but

we didn't know they were going to do that much at that time and he finally agreed and he was in my office i was entertaining him, finally they all said yes. and then come dario said to me after we agreed on with the price of the deal was going to be done, he said what about my other $40,000, talking in broken english. i said what $40,000? he said well, they promised me a thousand dollars if they didn't negotiate. it's been 40 days. so i picked up the phone and called miller. never heard mother swear in my life except then, that day. i said forget about it, for even -- fraga i even called. the deal was off. i will handle it. dario -- that's why i can't trust them to get the deal, the whole thing. so i said what if i can give you some of this? what do you mean? i will give you $20,000. he said how can you do that? i will need to the city consultant on the arts. i'm going to hire a racetrack owner to be the city