that was the accusation. that almost for me seemed to kick off what had always been great high vanderhoof can lean about rupert owning these, of

fox assigning a fairly efficien and forward thinking tv outfit.  i love that headline. >> excuse me. sorry, my wife this morning said, were on our way to the debate, why don't you get yourself a packet of hacks. i said no.  the man visited you. >> i think there's always been an underlying concern which think david cameron also starte off with the remarkably suddenl realize we'd be left without protection that rupert would step in. i think it's been a genius 15 years. it's an enormous empire which h talked about the other day, 53,000 old. he's built this mountainous or

to wells. 's now 80 years old and sits atop the it's an empire now out of control. not an evil empire, 90 countrie and higher. it's an empire that's kind of wanted to run i ll in the next couple of years. it may well just implode, blew apart. >> i don't think the em of a british fox news was ever in danger. let's not forget that new score said if they were allowed to bu the 61% of the remaining shares would sell off to sky news and i'm sure you agree

>> it is going to be sky news and turn into a part of them. >> is sort of the barrel of the regular 2000. >> just to respond to a chain said earlier, i wasn't suggesting that murdoch has bee the result of the conspiracy, but i don't think this story would've gotten nearly nearly a much play, wouldn't have blown up in the way it did have militant taken this gamble to d hired with the guardian. i think that gave us the confidence to go and hired. he would not have done that had he not sign some advantage to doing that. >> it had been the most mysterious they come to a conclusion three weeks before these e >> every staggering.

from the murdoch point of view -- [inaudible] >> carry on. go for >> we should bear in mind that it was a series of different things. i mean, not only was it the tao li case the following day, the iraq and afghan families. and also -- >> do you mean there is evidence? >> now, no. i mean, the idea that nob come up with any evidence. >> or a mischievous. >> the more serious attitude th american law takes to that so of behavior. >> i mean come it is noble and the stories continue to go on

when we went to see it dallaire they were genuinely dignified. they told the story in the most astonishing way to each of the leaders the next ain't  what happened and when they found out in everything else. and actually you could see the leaders emboldened af and when they had been before. they really truly much more adamant that they were going to take action. i believe then they take. they were much more forward in the way they spoke about these issues because they believed it was wrong and how the public hind them. the mac they did have suspicious timing of this. you could argue toccoa stands a the milli towler case pending for all the evidence to come ou and then there is a story on nday, which led to a public revolt. and remember, when the  did this story, this amazing

story about gordon taylor that news international had eight in 700,000 pounds chest ached at the nobody could talk about ey did that july 2009. you expected everybody else to write about it beca ge figure and nobody did.  because of this power, the police that came in and said this is nonsense, and the polic turned up the news internationa and said no. and the ipcc said anything, no. he went to prison even though he was the world reporte i mean, it just was insanity. it went on for two years.

to say it's not all about commercial interests and we definitely didn't want them to y sky, at what point do think there is a power this organization has and now the biggest satellite company has all been ushered through it faced minor of course. there is a real sense. hang on, that just isn't right. >> what's interesting about it is i think the fact that jere hunt was on the verge of givi the nod suddenly feel the fire because it made the government seen complicit in that inspired them. that had the guardian really wanted to bring don m

he wanted to score a direct h it would have been better to keep the milly dowler story b until jerry huntsman had given us. then i think the government would've fallen. it would have been a much more inflammatory story. >> i am quite curious to know which think of the concept the country gets the media that it deserves because it doesn't seem to really have been happening. murdoch has an international empire as you pointed out. but this thing doesn't seem to have been happening elsewhe

does a country get the media it serves and what to say say at this juncture about britain? >> i can tell. i will have to ask a question return. what did we do wrong to deser it? >> no, i'm asking >> any country gets the media it will put up with. and having worked not just in britain, but in new york and  sydney, there are three quite different types of media. "the new york post" is wild in american terms, but not british terms. in australia, i was censured fo carrying a photograph on page three as it happens in the daily telegraph in sydney of mary poppins coming of the actors -- lie andrews with the headli mary popout.

so you -- i have long been a believer -- let's talk about th british public because they think is that we hear, we sit i judgment and we have our middle cut lawyers and we feel that we like responsible, respect globa newspapers. and any man or woman wa foreign news, they want politics, they want him dead analysis. what they want is celebrity journalism and its driving -- i is driving newspapers at the bard and end of the market that had not a scooper to provide what they perceive that the blic will pay for. and you know, you could go on

until you're blue in the face of cutler founded the 50s putting in special sections to explain politics and explain economics. it doesn't work. they want tits and ass. i'm sorry, but they do. i don't believe it does, but there is a big enough -- there is a big enough, you know, slow groundswell out there that it reacts with journalists. deeply younger and younger editors in charge with less and less background, with n controls around them. as long as the profits are coming in, it's a river of go >> i would agree with toby elliott because this is not the failure of the press completely. there is a culture, which allowed a sword at cheeky he to get completely out of control and brake or troll barn side of the law.

>> the guardian others indeed have lots of other generous actually took seven years and not to expose her. so you know, do we get these? i would say they generally are good to read. >> i think it is important to say that we look at the certain part of the press suggest that the press. you have to look across the media. the media as a whole is fantastically mixed. we have lots and lots of forecast in print and online, phenomenal stuff. and if you look at this come in this country, you loo state. you can look at fox. you have to look at it as totality. what happens with the price,  sprightly response to the complete lack of accountability come of any mechanisms within themselves or regulate machen systems.

>> that brings us back to your point. why would respond to you by the resolution in my reporting life, what i started come a few peopl were complaining about things that have been on the air now every day of every week i have an interaction. some interaction in which peopl make uplifting contributions from over doing. they will ask us why we did thi are why we did that. or they will say how much we enjoyed that. and i believe actuall get it. i would say the media ts do not give us the debate. but i would argue that we don get the media we deserve beca actually we underestimate what decent people we are. we are right across the board. everybody either meet in the

street, north or south had lots of people because i'm still a porter on the own. i am absolutely amazed of what amazing people populate this country. and they are not the people tha want to undo the zip. >> i think you probably live in a more benign universe than the reason the universe prevent itself is because people want t come and pay their respects to you because they think you represent something fine and respect. >> i think that you are right that the british public clear has a huge appetite for the kin of stories that tabloids have been providing them with for th past god knows how many years, over 100 years.

and it ain't a lot of the animosity that the tablet is currently attract tee particularly the lateness of th world is because people were kind of disgusted with themselves as they said they would like to the solar wind to sit down and watch channel four news in the evening and not watch sg far less respectable, some freak show later on about the fattest man in the world or whatever it might eat. dominic lawson had a good idea. he said there's nothing more absurd than the british publi of moral outrage. he did say that the way in whic led partly fueled the scandal was the british public raging taliban and its own reflectio >> web tells us what people ally want is pornography

because pornography still drive the web. so do we give people pornography? >> it's not for us to decide. >> if people want pornography, why are we giving it to them? >> they are. they're giving getting it. >> i haven't seen much of pornography. [laughter] >> someone quick ask another++ question.+++++++++ >> this is a high-minded question. >> thank++++++++++++ >> i'm gavin rees and i work fo the dog center.++++ and my question is we have sort of decided to the scandal that' own hiking is bad and so forth. for big wins in the family and+ people who have+ benefited did disasters in different ways,++ it's very the conversations they have that could be+ problemati

there are journalists who+++ interview with great skill and+ there are others who do it less well in their other ways other+ than++++ phone hacking othe the stories they+ want.++++ looking ahead to the inquiry, i +ndered what the next set+ of issues but the panel thoughts would be on that.+++++++ >> are you asking for this sort of next potential wrongdoing in the press++++ or about, you the way we handle for+++++ +urnalists+ handle issues, yo know, reporting?++++++ >> we handle reporting. if you think about things like+ code, they will show++++++ sensitivity.++++++++ the code and+ so forth will++ contain references for certain+ kinds of behaviors are expected with journalists approach+++ vixens.++++ but the question is what does that constitute? at which you++++++++++e

+ofession or a trade perhaps+ and we talk about her cells hav enough ourselves about+ this+ guilt is.+++++ so for instance, somebody has seen+ their son die in front of them had a crane shooting, how+ does the journalists talk+++ sensibly quick do we share knowledge and technique and++ +derstanding?++++++++ >> something that's a great++ tragedy for a industry that++ never ever discussed is the lack of+ perpetrating them.++++ and what actually has happened+ and the result of the death of the regional industry.+++ partly the result of the way we are funding journalism.++++ so what happens is most journalists now go to a one-yea postgraduate course, which+++ obviously they+ are all intact anyway, so increasingly is a++ largest part because i'm to do+ these courses, then either go+ straight into a job where they do++ a blog or they sort of, 

know, have a celebrity+ magazi will we don't have anymore is terribly old-fashioned.+++ the set of nct jay, which type you+ all about, i'll be sort o things.+++++ not any legal issues to ensure it contempt of court, but+++ actually worked for newspapers+ just under two years and+ couldn't get away fast enough. but i++++++++ do rememb marcella and somebody++++ 17-year-old son has just been killed in a+ car accident, you know, there's no way to be+++ insensitive. they are hugely embarrassed. lots of these people want to++ talk because+ they say i talk+ about my son.++++++++ the tragedy, the reporter is++ almost the community. that+ hasn't gone and nothing  replaced it.++++++++

and nobody cares if nobody talk about it and i think it's a++ terrible+++++++++ trag >> newspapers are dying from th bottom up.+++++++ you also only get one type of+ +urnalism.+++++++++ you're talking about one of you courses.+++++ +u don't get 16, 17 and go into newspaper and spent three and a half years learning as well as+ during a six-month block course. +u don't get that.++++++ you get, what is it called? work experience.+++ >> he's taking them through +ery step of this+ life.+++ + yeah, but the university presumably you're getting largely grouped around london.+ you're getting them from kids+ who can afford to do work experience for+++++++ a  from the north of england or+ +otland which is++++ tradiy so we got a lot of digging+++

reporters.++++ you're getting one type, one++ class, one color, one background +r++ person.++++++ and that is what is feeding into the press now. it's a big problem.++++++ it's not just the training. it's the+ background.+++++ >> there is something you say+ that we are in danger of not++ getting the spread of p+eople. however, there are++ journali and schools all over the++++ country, you know, where you ar based in the+ northeast, where all of the things you are+++ talking about are taught.+++ the fact of the matter+ is tha there are still many, many good local newspapers, but they do+ not have the resources to do everything you just talk++++ this is pie in the sky.++++ this is with respect to all++ people looking back to the way things were. it is not like that++++++

>> i've just been given the++ two-minute warning, which is++ pretty ferocious to think of it that way.++++++ we have one more question here, but++ +i want -- did you wan quickly make a point and that?+ >> i think one of the things that has happened is they got i contact with a lot of people, some of them victims, some of +em supporters.++++++ as a result of the campaign, lot of them contacted us.+++++ we are going to try to tell++ stories to find out what exactl +ppened and if possible bring+ it together with some of the++ journalists to+ discuss it++ together and what happened with their+ experience.++++ at least sort of bringing people together++++ to discuss whys the experience they went++++ through.++++++++++ >> this isn't so much a++++ question, but disagreement is what you are saying.++++++ i just finished a master's+++ degree.++++++++ i've come over from ireland.++

there are journalism all over+ the country who do teach you++ what i think we need to get++ todd, 21st century journalism. +hn, you went to my++++ un >> a place for the journalism+ school is transformed the city. it's amazing.++ >> we do get taught things like ethics. i think it's not possible for+ everyone to go into local+++ newspapers+ anymore because lo newspapers cannot afford it, so we have to do++++ something >> i think that's a very good+ point.+++++++++ there is a contract year for doing grassroots, hearing of++ timber, feeling david has given this and the +opportunities ext across the country being offere here.++++++ i land on+ a story.+++ everyone of us has a confession i asked a tablet question once.

i was sick reporter of age+++ tragedy in spanaway liquid gas tanker+++++ that exploded, over the campsite, engulfing th people and they had fled into +e+ sea.+++++++ and i got there before my cameraman+ and that this amazi +o said it was terrible.+++ you could see the flesh falling from the inseminate died.+++ my cameraman arrived. i find the guy again and i +sa could i+ just talked to you++ again. this is two hours+++++++ he said he was so awful.++++ really i can't tell you. he went+ on the base where abo three minutes and i had a+++ deadline of 1:00 to feed the++ beast. so at the end i+ was so++++ exasperated i said could +++e their bones?+++++++ [laughter] he then told a story and i+++

thought will all++ be safe be there was an appalling offensiv question.++ but++++ i received david ins +d that was the end+ of it.+ i would like in your behalf to+ thank for absolutely fabulous contributors here in the pin+u like above all to thank you forw staying awake and i've got to complain to the chairman of thiw meeting.wwwwwwwww [laughter]wwwwwwwww [applause]w [inaudible conversations] ..

a terrorist group the two joined the fighting in somalia. to the house and homeland security committee. now the third in the series of hearings held by focuses on the other recruitment efforts in canada and the u.s..

this is two hours and 15 minutes. >> the homeland security committee will come to order. we are meeting today to hear testimony on the efforts of al-shabaab to recruit and radicalize the muslim american community. the chair wishes to remind the guests today the demonstrations in the audience including the use of science and t-shirts as well as verbal outbursts and violations of the rules of the house and maintaining order and proper decorum. and also my opening statement i think the ranking member for being willing to accommodate the change for the timing of the hearing this morning scheduled for 9:40 because of the republican conference going on in the debt ceiling and the ranking member was kind enough to accept that change without

requiring the procedural moves once again thanks for your cooperation. >> today we hold a third in a series of hearings on the radicalization and the muslim american community. our focus is the result of a lengthy investigation the committee has conducted an to the threat the u.s. homeland fees' is with somalia affiliate's of osama bin laden's al qaeda and anwar al-awlaki's al qaeda and the peninsula, aqap. the committee's been briefed by agencies and we've interviewed dozens of experts on al-shabaab. i want to welcome our distinguished panel of witnesses. they've shown the most extensive insight into the problems and covered by the committee investigation we have grateful they are sharing knowledge with us today. you will hear who been london called one of the most important enemies, excuse me, one of the most important armies of islam engaged in ongoing successful

effort to recruit and radicalize dozens of muslim american jihadis who pose a direct threat to the united states. some argue that al-shabaab is only a somalia problem and the group will never strike outside the horn of africa region. that kind of thinking is a glaring example of the 9/11 commission called a failure of imagination. with al-shabaab and the unquestionable ties to al qaeda particularly the alliance with aqap we must face the reality that al-shabaab is a growing threat to the homeland. our investigation into this thread has led to some alarming findings, notably the al-shabaab has been successfully recruited and radicalized more than 40 muslim americans and 20 canadians who joined the group inside somalia. of those at least 15 americans and three canadians fighting with al-shabaab. notte al qaeda or any any affiliate's have come close to

drawing so many muslim americans and westerners to jihad. three muslim americans became suicide bombers such as a mahmoud op met, the first bomber in history. there's also radicalized like al-shabaab commander free is the baptist and alabama and repeatedly threatened in the u.s. homeland. three american al-shabaab fighters have been arrested at the returning home and one was in the netherlands. other perot kleist muslims have been arrested in the u.s. and canada before they reached somalia which is now much easier to go to for jihadists and afghanistan, iran, excuse me, afghanistan, iraq, pakistan or yemen but as many as two dozen muslim americans and al-shabaab with many cases trained by al qaeda leaders remain unaccounted for. the committee has found that all chabad related federal prosecutions for funding, recruiting and attempting to join al-shabaab are the largest

number and most significant upward trend in the terror cases filed for the justice department over the past two years. least 38 cases have been unsealed since 2009. minnesota, ohio, california, new jersey, new york, illinois, alabama, virginia and texas three al-shabaab is recruiting inside american mosques and disalle communities like minneapolis and san diego. according to the justice department. this month and also of recruiter pleaded guilty to a recording a large group of muslims from minneapolis at mosques and without any known protest moscow's leaders. a top also leader in somalia supervised this recruiting. one minnesota recruited was a suicide bomber whose 2008 attack on northern somalia send shock waves of alarm for the u.s. homeland security agencies because of its implications. another would-be bombers for minneapolis was shot and killed

by peacekeeping troops on may 30th. moments before detonating. when one cleric spoke out against al-shabaab inside the minneapolis mosque for many of the missing young man they once worshiped he was physically assaulted according to a police. for those still skeptical that there were some of the lasers and side of the community it's worth mentioning the committee willing when an audiotape of the incident was posted on overseas internet forums before the authority to minneapolis even knew about the instance. there's an enormous amount of travel by the americans between the u.s. and east africa. and most of the truffle is legitimate. senior u.s. counterterrorism officials have told the committee they are very concerned of individuals did not identify or have fallen into -- fallen in during trips to somalia would return to the u.s. undetected. they fear a fighter operating in law enforcement radar someone

like zazi in new york or the attempted times square bomber in new york and of abdulmutallab may attempt to attack here it is deeply troubling that from the very beginning of the muslim americans in somalia were trimmed by the top al qaeda operatives including several tied to yemen's al qaeda aqap which is now generally considered our biggest homeland fritz. al-shabaab operative was charged this month for doing what in steals and explicit trainings with aqap and to provide with material support including personnel between aqap and al-shabaab. al-shabaab is the top al qaeda leaders such as the mastermind of 1998 u.s. embassy bombings in east africa was gunned down last month in somalia after a 13 year manhunt. al-shabaab a spragens a malida in support of aqap and to the

yemeni government this year as well as flying the battle of al qaeda and iraq. finally, and al-shabaab bombing in neighboring ugonda of one year ago targeted killed 74 people including one american. james clapper, president obama's director of national intelligence said, quote, vigilance that al-shabaab -- vigilant al-shabaab means focus fighting to control somalia to protect the u.s. homeland. that convinced me of the necessity to launch a careful examination of the threat. does to -- doesn't agree that it's real and al-shabaab's leaders called for attacks against american including the retaliation of killing bin laden must be taken seriously. just yesterday macules of what president's nominee to to cover the counterterrorism center focused on all chabad and said with a major threat they are to the world and the country. a large group of muslim americans willing to die as

martyrs and strong operational partnership with al qaeda leaders in pakistan and yemen al-shabaab has more capability than ever to strike the u.s. homeland. we look forward to hearing about the rising al-shabaab threat from the witnesses as well as the minority distinguish what best -- witness. finally let me know if certain elements of the politically correct media, most egregiously the audial logs of "the new york times" are shamelessly attending to exploit the tragedy in norway to cause me to refocus the hearings away from muslim american radicalization. if they even had a semblance of intellectual honesty, the times and others would know and admit it is no equivalency in the threats to the homeland to the gun man and the international terror apparatus of al qaeda and its affiliates such as al-shabaab are recruiting people in the country and murdered thousands of americans in the attacks. let me make this clear from "the

new york times" and their acolytes and the politically a correct media. i will not back down from the hearings to rely will continue to hold these hearings so long as i am the chairman of the committee. apart what was was strategic reasons why the hearings are vital to the security they are also liberating and in helvering to the muslim americans intimidated by leaders in their own communities and willing and able to come forward. i also to the friends, neighbors and constituents i lost on september 11th. i will not back down and i would yield to the distinguished member from mississippi mr. thompson. >> thank you very much. mr. chairman, and i would welcome our panel of witnesses to today's hearing. today the committee will hold a third hearing in a series of terrorism and american muslim communities. in previous hearings we heard testimony about young americans of so malida sent who left this country to join al-shabaab, a somalia group that has been designated as a foreign terrorist organization by the

department of state. our discussion of al-shabaab in america must begin with the facts. reliable evidence indicates a small but concerning number of young men have left america to join this group. this activity seemed to occur primarily between 2007 to 2009. al-shabaab has fewer than 3,000 members and has never attacked the united states interest abroad. there are other facts we must not ignore. somalia is currently in the grips of the worst humanitarian crisis in the generation. again, somalia's back drop of human suffering caused by natural disaster is the political instability caused by human folly. somalia has had a stable government since 1991. it has been ruled by family groups and plans.

unfortunately, al-shabaab is one ingredient in this toxicant tragic mix. while i acknowledge that the intelligence community seems -- sees the need to monitor al-shabaab activity, i also know that vigilance must be in direct proportion to the probability and likelihood of the threat. al-shabaab does not appear to present any danger to this homeland. at the same time, we must wonder whether americans have joined al-shabaab would return to this country and commit acts of terror of a some. i think it is a clear question that deserves a factual answer. a few people have been convicted in the u.s. for providing support and assistance to al-shabaab. many of the young men who were recruited by al-shabaab have been indicted, most remain fugitives and somalia, some have

been killed. but what of the others? when they return from somalia, what will await them here? as members of the committee know, we cannot discuss methods in an open forum. but it is fair to say that most of these people would be identified and apprehended long before the touchdown on american soil. we must bhatia with also wonder how we can stop them from joining al-shabaab, the democratic witness will get a boots on the ground perspective on how we can promote inclusion of the new immigrant communities decrease in elimination and undermine the radicalization. the threat of al-shabaab radicalizing and americans is a problem we can constructively address. today marks the third time this committee has taken up a link between terrorism and the american muslim community.

before these hearings begin, i request the focus be broadened to include a look at the real and present threat of domestic violent extremism. those requests have been rebuffed. in the first hearing on the subject with regard to north america and the middle east at that time i cautioned that we remember how the words reverberate beyond this room it bares repeating last week in norway a domestic terrorist fuelled by antiislamic ideology waged an attack that included a bombing federal building and shooting children at point-blank range at a summer camp for future national leaders. this lone wolf extremist killed nearly 80 people in his anti-islam might fervor. it is too early to say what the

people of more way but take from this horrific national tragedy thought this explain the madness of charter was an cannot be confined to any one religion, one people or one nation. let me repeat what i said before we began. this committee needs to examine the threat of the lone wolves in our midst. thank you, mr. chairman. i yield back. >> i would remind the remember your chairman of the committee for four years and had the opportunity to hold the hearings if you thought there was a distinct threat to the united states, and i said whenever we can get intelligence that there is an organized threat against the country that cannot be met by the fbi with the agencies who would conduct the hearing but i don't think that he acts by a lone gunman who hates muslims and tells christians as any reflection on the committee or anything to do with the hearings conducted today for in the future but i would keep an open

mind. mr. chairman i know that our good friend is here. before unanimous consent to allow him to sit on the question of the hearing i would ask my friend and ranking member thompson whether there's any effort to assign him on a permanent basis this is the ninth time in the congress that unanimous consent is requested and i would note the vacancy on the minority side and when a wheel of his visits to the committee, are there any thoughts on the issue whether he's going to be a permanent resident or have a green card or -- what his purpose is as a member of this committee. >> he's interested member of congress who as you know serves dutifully as a member of this committee in the majority. and given the difference in the numbers he had to leave. but none the less his appearance before the committee clearly reflected interest in the subject matter. >> i would advise the ranking

member that there is a vacancy on your side, and i can't think of anyone more qualified or distinguished to fill that vacancy so if my recommendation means anything i would recommend him. i ask unanimous consent to allow him to sit today without objection, so ordered. i would ask unanimous consent i believe we made this available to you a letter the committee received from the anti-defamation league i would like to have that also entered into the record and without objection, so ordered. again, remember thompson, thank you for your statement other members i remind you opening statements may be submitted for the record. we have a panel for the hearing today and i welcome our witnesses. i remind the witnesses their full testimony will be submitted for the record and i ask you to summarize your statements in five minutes. our first witness is a member of

the cross security in this distinguished himself as one of north america's most prominent and respected somalia east africa security government analysts. he's the national president of the somalia, chris and is a graduate of the university of the wall school and to set up a jewish mentoring project. he's also assisted the police and we are privileged to have him as a witness. you are recognized for five minutes. -- before, german king, a ranking member thompson and distinguished members of this committee. i want to begin by talking a little bit about the community. it is 200,000 strong community spread out mostly all across canada. we have strong links mostly

positive with the community. however there are also an underbelly of - links as well. i'm a canadian muslim who's part of the heritage and i truly believe the canadian and american values of liberty, democracy, rule of law, human rights and respectful minorities do complement and work neatly with the tenants of my face. it's a fact lost on many including canadian somalis that it's countries like the united states and canada that guaranty a human-rights and religious freedoms that we can actually invest in these environments. the civil rights of the community members must be protected but it's equally important to disseminate the

messages in order to contribute to a process for the committee's emphasize the defense and attachments to the countries of canada and the united states. it's quite shocking the of the median family income that the mainstream has and three times lower than what other visual minorities have in canada. due to this dislocation and history of coming out of a brutal civil war, we have a lot of young males in the commanding the drop out of school and become vulnerable. they become easily vulnerable to people who feed them anti-western ideologies and they also become vulnerable to a narrative that basically makes them hate the very country that has sustained them, the country

but welcomed the parents and provided refuge to their parents. we've tried in the congress to overcome that narrative by making sure that we give you access to jobs and professions and integrate them into the larger mainstream community. with the opportunity there is less for the radicals to come and create vulnerabilities. in the early 2001, the national security officials confirmed the disappearance of dozens of young canadian mails who travel to somalia to fight with al-shabaab , a terrorist group that had officially become allied with al qaeda and the al qaeda the arabian peninsula. three of the youngest people in canada have died in somalia fighting for this group. lately the recruiters have turned their attention to the recruitment of young women.

whether this is a new way to step -- to stay one step away from wall is something to be determined. these figures obviously point to the fact that the scale of canada's problem of radicalization and the committee is comparable in numbers with what dealing with in america. also links between the recruiters, the radicalizing message of fund-raising there are a lot of connections between the united states and canada. it's disturbing as canadian citizens to see the children of those who fled the civil war in somalia to return to a country that contribute further to its misery. the radicalization and the recruitment of american small piece into the life of international tourism in 2006 to 2009 mirrors the pattern of the radicalization of the recruitment of the canadians from 2009 to the present time.

whether the internet is the main tool for the transmission of messaging that leads to the radicalization, you still need people who will show verdone to become chaperon people as well as provide logistics and other support. there is obviously a clear connection between the community in canada. most of it is positive. the trade is social connections and so on but there is an element that needs to be looked at. there has not been an attempt by our government -- our governments have taken this issue and looked at it as a law enforcement issue which is important but there hasn't been a parallel attempt to counter the toxic anti-western narrative that creates a culture of victimhood in the minds of the members of my community. it's only the members of the canadian somalia community and

members of the larger muslim community that can credibly confront and eradicate this narrative from the communities. equally important the leaders of this effort in the community of those that emphasize integration and the adherence and respect for the canadian and american values and promote separation extremely the small achieve. the rule that we believe the government should play is to promote -- to support and carry the leaders who are encouraging the integration and commitment to the rule will flock into the constitution in canada and the united states and to denounce those promoting extremism within our midst. i would like to close by saying these hearings are extremely important to us and in power us and remove the stigma in the community that presents us from

talking about these issues important to the community. these are very empowering and finally, al-shabaab radicals and the messaging the anti-western messaging isn't compatible with islam and is not in the best interest of my community. thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you. the next witness is the former assistant united states attorney for the district of minnesota for a prosecutor of the cases originated in the minneapolis area and represented the minneapolis joint terrorism task force. prior to his work as a federal prosecutor, he served honorably in the united states marine corps and we welcome his testimony today and also now acknowledge the presence of his wife and again it was a pleasure meeting with her and with you this morning and i look forward to hearing your testimony. >> good morning, sherman, a

ranking member thompson, members of the community, thank you for devotee in the to testify this morning regarding al-shabaab. as a former federal prosecutor involved in the national security cases and as a marine i am well aware of the extraordinary threat posed by the united states and the terrorist organizations. as a federal prosecutor i was responsible for the prosecution if there was a al qaeda as well as al-shabaab as well as domestic terrorist such as other anti-government groups that advocate violence against u.s. citizens of all stripes. these experiences have taught that terrorists whether homegrown or foreign, al chabad, al qaeda or otherwise are capable of extraordinary acts of violence and require the unwavering attention of law enforcement. outside my work as an attorney i also serve as the board as the chair of the board of a nonprofit organization that educates new immigrants to the

united states. students of this organization confirmations i am familiar with and we are all familiar with as the grounds for terrorists and terrorist activities. the students i had the privilege of watching better themselves through their education so they may become contributing members of society remind me that the necessity for the switch, precise and effective counter terrorist action through our military intelligence community of law enforcement community was in the united states and abroad must never be replaced by an attitude of guilt by association or the belief that once origins or religious views make that person a presumptive terrorist. in light of that, it is appropriate indeed it is important this committee spent time learning about and educating the public about the threat posed to the united states. al-shabaab was designated an organization by the department of state since february, 2008. its activities included but are not limited to suicide bombing in the slum ugonda killing

hundreds of innocent people and the senseless and extreme act of violence to include stoning innocent people in somalia, teenage girls, cutting hands and feet off fields in somalia and as we are well aware the active recruitment of u.s. citizens especially for my home of minnesota to join its ranks and in a gesture was the activities. al-shabaab has worked tirelessly to raise and a rise from the chaos of somalia to become a terrorist group with an international profile. this has been marked by the recruitment of young men from minnesota. these young men and the beginning of their lives as adults with futures as americans yet to be determined was stolen from them by the rhetoric of al-shabaab. al-shabaab has established and has shown clear and unequivocal ties not only to an islamic fundamentalist rhetoric but also

other terrorist organizations which we are familiar to include al qaeda. the recording videos on the internet that prominently featured osama bin laden, on an al-zawahiri and in addition illustrate numbers such as al-shabaab training camps alongside u.s. recruits. mr. chairman, the dangerousness and the effectiveness of al-shabaab's rhetoric is clear from the experience with its organization. if you turn your attention to a 70 per going 2008, you will know everything you need to know about the effectiveness and the effect on the united states of this organization production or 29th 2008, she became the first u.s. suicide bomber wing himself up, killing innocent civilians and wreaking further havoc on somalia. within one week of that in the beginning of november in 2008,

an additional group of young man in minnesota for somalia to join al-shabaab. that contrast of extraordinary violence followed by additional recruitment tells the kennedy and the american people everything it needs to know about the danger of the threat and the absolute effectiveness of the rhetoric used to recruit young men. to fight al-shabaab and its supporters the united states must engage in a multifaceted approach that utilizes the united states a devotees to read this includes the military, the intelligence community and the law enforcement community within the united states. however, in addition to focusing our military intelligence and law enforcement efforts upon countering the al-shabaab message preventing terrorist attacks and disrupting the organization, we must also insure the community understands that the united states interest in that community is not committed to putting names on

indictments. thank you for your time this morning. i appreciate it. >> thank you. the next witness has appeared in number of times before the committee and subcommittee in the converse. tom is a senior fellow in the executive structure of the center for the counterterrorism of the foundation for defense of democracy is as a result of the extensive research and writing his distinguished himself as a terrorism expert focusing on how al qaeda and other organizations operate on the world and is the senior editor of the long war journal. we welcome you back and you are recognized for five minutes. >> thank you very much a devotees the three german king and ranking member thompson and other members of the committee having me here today to talk about al-shabaab. my colleagues have been falling since 2006, 2007 fairly closely, and there are two principal observations i come to that i want to share with you today. first is to our mind al-shabaab as a threat to u.s. interests abroad and the homeland and second is most of the terrorism

is actually focused on muslims both in somalia is a muslims i would say internationally. to the first point, the threat to the u.s. only five like to point to the committee to have been previously with the al qaeda peninsula in yemen. prior to the december 25th, 2009 terrorist plot against flight 253 many people in the community didn't believe aqap was a threat to the homeland in fact the report found that prior to that point, counterterrorism and in ctc, cia and nsa were focused on the threat of the attacks in yemen but were off focus on the possible the degette aqap attacks on the homeland. unfortunately that's proven to be a fatal flaw because we would is over and over again they sought to inspire and direct attacks against the homeland. again, we cannot know if or when they will do the same but the potential was there when you add up the box. in that van i want to at walz click on the ties to al qaeda.

in 2008 here is that a prominent leader said about al qaeda and the relationship and al qaeda and the holy war in somalia trained in al qaeda camp to the tactics and guidelines it was done in an interview with the l.a. times and the l.a. times went on to say that for the first time lil' bo spoke about the possibility of attacking americans, saying even journalists and aid workers were not immune from attack because of the animosity toward the united states. we go through my testimony and written for my provided a number of leaders from both a dual al-shabaab and al qaeda leaders and have either expressed their open i would say the endorsement of al qaeda's ideology or have direct operational links several more responsible for the 1998 embassy bombings in kenya and tanzania and they were quite clearly targeted at u.s. interest, and u.s. embassies. even again as most al qaeda the

attack more muslims than americans or anybody else. i would say to my second point about al-shabaab inside somalia the injured clan warfare basically is on somalia over time what they've done is made this into an ideological battle and they have sought in the target of their enemies and brutalize their enemies brought somalia. what they did is the front of the muslims that were not willing to work with them and systematically killed them and they disagreed shrines, moscow systematically set about trying to tyrannize -- to rise in somalia. when i looked at the 30 citizen bombings i could count, about 30 list of the victims were in fact muslims. the bombings unfortunately involved recruits from minneapolis. many of the records were actually trained by senior al qaeda operatives we know based on what the report last week the

same al qaeda operative previously targeted the interest including the embassy in tanzania, so it's easy to connect the dots between the senior al qaeda leaders, the animosity for the u.s., the desire to kill us and target american interest in what's happening in the recruitment in the left. i would say finally the other point is i do not believe -- i don't feel there's evidence that most somalis americans support also bomb, they have been victimized as well in a lot of ways to revive the families that have lost sons do al-shabaab, i have read reports where some of the american families started withholding passports to make sure they couldn't travel lavrov to read the troubled agency had originally sent the recruits abroad stopped to make sure they could stop doing it to read there has been pushed back throughout the community and also from the canadian community and its bottom line from my perspective it's not only a threat to the u.s. its interest both abroad and in the homeland of the muslims around the globe.

>> thank you. the next witness is the chief of the st. paul police department since 2010 he began his career in the city of st. paul as 1989 became assistant police chief and graduates of the fbi academy and serves on the fbi civil rights advisory council we very much thank you for being here today sharing your insight and we look forward to your testimony and you are now recognized for five minutes. >> thank you. jarman king, ranking member thompson and distinguished members of the committee i think you for the opportunity to testify on this topic. i will speak about current efforts underway in st. paul, minnesota from the country attempt by al-shabaab to recruit and radicalize the young members of our community. i will highlight the st. paul police department efforts to combat this disturbing trend and speaks specifically to the cooperative outreach efforts including the program called

african immigrant muslim community outreach program which is funded in large part through its federal bureau assistance grant. the conversation is especially important for st. paul as we have a significant population this is engaged in is a keen interest in complex understanding of local, national and world events. i found a majority of the men and women called on prime americans come some among the community have targets for radical position. it's published between 2007 to 2009 al-shabaab successfully lured approximately 20 young men many of whom were young men from the minneapolis and paul area overseas terrorist for this phenomenon was new and represented a charge of the san paul police department had not confronted in the past. the idea that young adults could be enticed into something this destructive was not. the news was troubling and disturbing and although the

trend had political secure the implication that extended far beyond st. paul the department made a commitment to counter the threat. we have long worked to combat that have become all too familiar. alcohol abuse, drug abuse and gang violence as we committed to combating the threats the st. paul police department committed to our duty to battling the new one and the radicalization of the american youth. we believe we can play a role stopping the threat and coupled with positive messages conveyed to the u.s. through strong families, legitimate social order as asians and constructive religious left messages to be just as powerful as it is delivered by al-shabaab to read in 2000 for the st. paul police department began engaging series outreach work with our american residents of the we did not know at that time, this initial work would prove to be the foundation for more urgent work with a broader implications. this evolved into the african immigrant muslim community outreach program. in 2000 when the st. paul police

department applied for the bureau of justice grant. the grant sought to capitalize on existing department outreach efforts of the local community and cited a specific need, the need to prevent further radicalization of the use by al-shabaab. it cited a specific strategies to combat this trend targeted in on going out reached with our community and coordinate work in the department such as the fbi minneapolis field office, united states attorney's office with the district of minnesota and the county sheriff's office and several service providers including the local ywca, the st. paul intervention project and muslim american society. we were awarded a grant in 2009 and was launched. today both of the scale and scope and its related programs have seen significant growth. the department regularly meets with the advisory council that by the way i helped establish along with other members from the st. paul police department and the mayor christopher

coleman beckham 2006 to read a council that can talk to the chief police and others in the department along with local governments to talk about concerns within the community. we also have 45 officers of francs intimately involved in the programs to read the officers asked to be part of the of reach work. after the acceptance into the program the officers received training specific to the work, to the mission and philosophy behind it. the difficult to coordinate and directly participate in an array of activities with our somali american use of that input after studies, open gems, arts and craft programs and camping trips. the athletic league has over 300 participants who compete in flood football, softball and volleyball games organized coached and refereed by the st. paul police officers and we believe that by creating these divers ongoing opportunities for the somalis american youth and the police to interact the trust, cooperation conference

ship and mentorship will increase and opportunities for all chabad to radicalize the u.s. will decrease. we face challenges while moving forward with our outreach among those with the fact simile american women and girls were noticeably under represented in many of our initial programs. we directly targeted the american females and mothers with many outreach efforts including a number of programs live exclusively by the women police officers. they've enjoyed an increase in female participation in the benefited greatly from this expanded involvement in dialogue. we expanded our understanding of the residence, background and religion through training to the officers. we've come to a better understanding that to effectively prevent and combat the threat of radicalization we need to think beyond the traditional law enforcement motions and strategies. i have no doubt that it's related programs have helped us counter the threat posed by al-shabaab. we've build stronger relationships in the community

once isolated and work together to address challenges and solve problems. simile american youth have made tended by an ideology of radicalization and look to expanded network of trust including police officers, mentors to provide support, resources and guidance to steer them in a positive direction. we find new examples every day with the american news confiding the police officer mentors about their family, school and personal problems and issues. the speak candidly about their own concern for friends or family who may be in a troubled taft or among those missing, suspected to have gone overseas to fight. the outreach work has played a significant role in very important criminal investigations. in 2009 when participating in the program at a local high school i was approached by a co-worker and mother of a 14-year-old american youth. the mother was concerned her child was becoming recruited and radicalized. this was turned over to the fbi joint terrorism task force and resulted in the significant

investigation. also in 2009 the st. paul police department to establish personal relationships was informed by the parents of girls in the community were being sexually trafficked not only in st. paul and the annapolis that tennessee and other states. this information passed not in large part because existing climate of cooperation and trust with a genesis for significant and large scale investigation that ultimately resulted in indictments in minnesota and tennessee at least one of those indicted was turned over the fbi because of other concerns and i don't know if you read what happened to those girls, but i did. horrific what happened to those girls. we are able to get them resources and back with their families to read this was a significant investigation that would never happen or what have furthered the investigation without a community of trust. united states attorney's office for the middle district of tennessee continues to work on the case today. the majority of those indicted or from the twin cities and

involved in the gangs beyond the indictment the investigation led to the return as i noted of many girls to their families the youngest of which was only 14 years of age. the altar or briefs repeatedly during the course of this investigation asked to provide information in the future should this activity began again to read through these and other examples i said before you today confidently at test not only the success of the related programs but also to the future potential that this type of work holtz. we've captured attention from international agencies working on similar radicalization issues. the british embassy has invited members including myself and the st. paul police department to the united kingdom and conducted physics in the city as well. recently we were visited by united states ambassador to denmark who spoke about ongoing efforts and the similarities between the time cities and denmark. discussions continue to lighten up and that is to benefit the st. paul models to improve

outcomes under way. the department continues to evolve to address the needs of the residence and to counter the unique post of al-shabaab. i see the future were more sophisticated programs bolstered by enhanced partnerships with additional agencies and organizations will continue to build upon the trust we can withstand paul, somalia residence. the continuation of the work is an apparent effort of the large effort to counter terrorism and reduced crime. as i conclude i want to share a few thoughts. i'm asked -- and sometimes asked if i believe the community can benefit from the advisory council or the athletic leagues. these efforts to look different than the traditional notions of police work. to answer the questions i asked the would imagine for a moment the police officer called to the housing complex to deal with the problem happens also to be the same football coach or math tutor or the leader of the camping trip and i ask them to further imagine among those same are the sons or daughters of the

elders who regularly visit my office or the places they reside. you don't have to imagine the connections because in st. paul the exist. these run throughout and represent the foundation of our outreach work and in my experience they paid great dividends. as the chief of police i expect them to perform their duties in the line with principles. number one, keep the peace. in this we don't police to the community, we commit to policing with it as we implement -- promote public safety. to do so we commit to the development of strong partnerships with the communities we serve and enforce the law. i've come to believe, however, that when we do the first two things well we actually have to do less of the ferret. all of these involve our programs, and i can tell you that our initial work with our st. paul l. terse in 2000 for all the way to 2006 helped us establish the community of trust

we have with residents in the st. paul community. thank you. >> thank you for your testimony in service. i will be giving a round of questions. let me begin with you, please. as you probably know, these hearings have been attacked as into a muslim, by yes, racist terminology that's come. he said in your testimony the hearings have in power to your community. if you could expand on that in the course of doing that you also said he believed then narrative has to be changed that those to the community to show this is not anti-western that in effect they should work with canada and the united states. i would ask first fall if the hearings helped out but even more importantly, do you find that the leadership in your community agrees with you, has the change for the better? if you could tell what the leadership is and how they react to what you are saying about the

narrative of being pro-western. >> the question is important. initially there was reluctance because they felt there was a dichotomy between islamic values and space values. the more we explained that there is no distinction between the two because our religion is not incompatible with the values. our religion is compatible with islam and the respect for human rights and democracy and the rule of law and respect for minority. and when you explain it that way and come at the values that canada and the united states have from the perspective than it is easier for the members and leaders to accept. over the years there has been great movement towards the acceptance of that message. however, --

>> what is your relationship in canada? >> we don't have a relationship in canada because it comes from a different perspective. >> is this your narrative? >> no, they don't. >> how would you rate the severity of a possible attack on the homeland because of the link up of al-shabaab and aqap? >> thank you excellent question. i think the focus of the potential but al-shabaab carries is best used for the lens of what al qaeda has accomplished in the past and what if any similarities are but in the audiology of al qaeda and al-shabaab and if we compare them side by side and would find the same method being set forth by al-shabaab asra previously from al qaeda, which is against the united states which is just fighting violent acts against

innocent and to the extent that al-shabaab has in many ways adopted an al qaeda training module and echoes the same ideology i think is a potential similar to what we have seen from al qaeda. >> we never estimates of those for the united states and in canada and maybe more have gone over. if we know who has gone over what is the threat of coming back? >> any time an individual troubles to a country that essentially lacks any functioning government such as somalia, and our ability to track individual is going to be severely degraded, and certainly such as somalia which is a transitional federal government that is responsible for a number of locks in mogadishu but has no authority beyond that is a nation that is essentially you have a black box that is when somebody goes and we may or may not have an ability to trust them looking forward. as a result, while i would like to believe we are able to track anybody coming out of somalia to

the united states that has been engaged in the behavior the reality as we saw last december that even in the best case scenario when some of these one family member may report them to be a potential threat to the united states, we sometimes miss them and so i think the potential is incredibly scary in that regard. >> you have a comment on the potential threat from al-shabaab linking? >> generally the presence within itself is a threat. in other words there's two ways to look at what they're one of receiving outside direction which there's evidence of a point you to an article in may talking about the evidence that reviewed from the compound in which character is some officials said appeared bin laden was giving strategic direction to the al qaeda affiliate's in yemen and somalia and it's clear that direction and soft targets outside of somalia and didn't go after u.s. interests but even without that

direction, there are senior al qaeda members convinced after the senior levels and they themselves have been involved in the u.s. interest. i count of leased for on my testimony to previously hit the indices' 1998. that's all the way back to 1998 the russian the to go after american interests so i would look at that perspective. >> thank you very much. chief smith, in your 20 years as a professional law enforcement officer and now the chief of st. paul, do you see community engagement with the immigrant community as an enjoyable part of possessing any potential threat to your city or the stand point? >> randy member thompson,

committee members, of course as the chief of police by understand the importance working with all of our immigrants communities in st. paul to give a fabric for the committee we of the largest population of any city in the united states and the part of the city for over 30 years we worked closely in that community to relieve the largest population of any city in the united states with the newest immigrant group from burma working closely with them along with our population we had been since 2004. the culture of trust you spoke about in developing relationships have shown many positive examples people have come forward to entrust us with information we can share with our federal partners to make sure the city is safe and the country is safe as well. so yes, we work with all of our diverse communities and i hope i've answered your question correctly but it's important to

have the communities of trusten please and local law enforcement as you noted earlier our boots on the ground. we are the first line of defense, and we have to work with the communities that we serve. >> thank you to read one of the things that congress has historically done is invested resources with local law enforcement agencies so that they can expand the notion of engagement. have they made that available to your police department and help you carry out those duties and responsibilities? >> ranking member thompson, members, yes. the example i gave a grant highlights that, the efforts of specially again to stop young men and women today from becoming a radicalized true partnerships and having extra funds to do things we wouldn't be able to do on a day-to-day basis to doesn't mean we didn't start the outreach as i noted we

started in 2004 but those are critical for the programs we are working currently in the city and have helped us expand efforts with many positive results. >> thank you. are you aware of any community engagement programs for the canadian government is involved in? >> of the canadian government has been a very pro-active in terms of community outreach and that has led to better detection of individuals that were planning to go to fight for all al-shabaab. many of the cases that resulted in successful detection and arrests came from community sources. however -- >> so the canadian government officials provide money for the community engagement program and

your testimony is that they were? >> my testimony is not looking at the second part of the equation which is providing outreach that tackles the narrative that leads to the radicalization. so looking at the detection which is inadequate as far as i'm concerned. >> so the canadian government is failing? >> no, partially successful, but the narrative needs to be tackled head-on and you need to and how were those in the community willing to offer an alternative and actually reinforce the values that the canadian american society is based on and we are not seeing that in canada and that is why this is important. >> your testimony is that the canadian government is not doing what you think they should be doing on this issue.

>> they are partially doing the right thing in the detection of arrests but they're not in power in the community with respect to the - that leads to radicalization. i am constructively critical. [laughter] >> the gentleman from california is recognized. >> i want to thank barring a member. some of us worked for years on the committee to both put into the patriot act and extend the application of the patriot act to the lone wolf and we had a debate on that this year. some criticized by saying we didn't have a lone wolf situation here in the united states so i appreciate the ranking member pointing out how important that issue is to less.

chief smith i would like to direct a question to both of you, and that is when i was privileged to serve as the general california we have violence and gangs and one of the things i conclude from the work we did on that was that different gangs and problems required different approaches. we found with a traditional games often times it was the absence of a father figure, male figure in the lives of the old men and the gangs that provided that alternative setting to read what salvi's asian gangs and recent immigrants it wasn't the lack of a father figure in the family come it was a lack of communications that oftentimes the parents couldn't speak english and the students found a cultural disconnect with their parents they used as an opportunity to sort of avoid the

parental influence and the gang truce if -- rose as the team together. do you find any particular distinct characteristic that al-shabaab or others who seek to radicalize them utilize them as their entry into that use experience and mentality. is their something you find this dealing with other type of gangs setting even though this is different than the regular sittings but i wonder from your own experience what you found. >> what i found is the entry point becomes a lack of integration, so the radicals would say you went to the university and played by the

rules and stayed out of trouble, but they won't give you a job and you won't get an interview so you'll never get accepted in canada. the entry point becomes that economic and social like comic generalization according to the radicals you have to do different things. this is a big question because when you talk about somalia or the young man i think this committee is well aware that you have seen examples of individuals recruited by al-shabaab that have been highly educated and some that have been very disenfranchised.

so why can't give you a specific answer to that question. it would only be a conjecture in the opinion because we have -- the one thing that i will say in st. paul and the reason we do the outreach work that we do is you have to talk about these issues and meet with these young people and talk about what they are feeling and you'd be amazed what they tell us and how open they are about this issue and it gets the best way for me to answer that. >> one of the things i would ask is there any doubt in your mind that visa wally i use are targets of radicalization by some including al-shabaab? >> i cannot tell you they are not. there are some youth that are targets for the radicalization as men and women recruited in the activity so is it a specific piece right in my city? know it's not and we treat the

city and the specific problems as unique and i have different strategies and hope that answers your question, sir. >> some might say we are exaggerating the threat, that even though we talked about the numbers of americans and canadian young people who joined al-shabaab or quote on quote spirited hour of the country in these actions, it is a relatively few, and therefore we are exaggerating it. what would you say to that? ..

the high number indictments we are seeing reflect a real threat. secondly, i don't believe it is appropriate to say that simply, simply because there's a certain number of indictments are certain number of people who have left the united states at that number indicates a small or a large threat. the reality congressman is that only a very small number of somalis that have left the united states or that have joined al shabaab only a small number of somalis have left and joined al shabaab compared to the total number but the reality is even that small numbers compared to the large population are too many. >> the gentlelady from california, ms. sanchez is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you gentlemen for being before a committee today.

you know, after the chairman had his first hearing, in this series of investigative muslims, minnesota u.s. attorney todd jones said i hope it does not have an adverse impact on the good things happening here in minnesota with our somali community. do you think, chief, that the chairman's position that there's not been sufficient cooperation cooperation from mosque leaders helps you when you are trying to reach out in minnesota to the somali community? >> i don't feel that is a problem for a specifically in st. paul and let me give you one example if i may, maam. in st. paul back in june of this year we had a symbolic youth summit. we invited people from throughout the twin city area to come to the summit, learn about a different topic. we had speakers from washington

d.c. here, the department of homeland security, our fbi, u.s. attorney b. todd jones that he just mentioned and imams who brought people from their mosques to come to this youth summit. this is the second one we have held. we had one in january and one in jenin you would be surprised how many of people, and how many imams come. we are very engaged, so i don't see a problem with that specifically in st. paul. again, there are differences between our two cities even though we are one foot step away on the highway and the street. >> it is my understanding bed your police officers seem to have bought soccer shirts and have worked with the youth in your community, the somali youth in particular to ensure you have a better relationship with that community. is that not correct? >> that is absolutely correct, maam. >> and, you know, there are a lot of cuts going on here in

washington d.c.. some of them deserved and i think some of them sort of cutting off what is important for tomorrow. we in just this past year had a vote on the cop program for example, where those community policing grants that we give to our local law-enforcement, at least in my area, i represent santa ana california for example have a very large police force and we were able to keep 13 police officers on the beat and the community oriented situation. unfortunately, the last time we had a vote on cops, and nearly passed here in the house of representatives and i think there is a movement to cut everything. so, i would like to get your indication. have you used community policing in order to reach out to that community, in order to know what is going on, or specifically are you using some other method?

that would be my first question in my second one is, have other police and law-enforcement around the nation contacted you for best practices of how to deal with what seems to be a community that in fact he wants to make sure stays true to the american values? >> let answer your last question first, and yes we have had many chiefs up the lease that have contacted either myself or my staff to talk about the work we are doing in st. paul specifically with our somali community. to get onto your next question about the cops program, cops is critical to any local chief of police. i am just going to say it like it is. it helped us to hire officers in very fiscally constrained times with our local government. it allows us to do program such as aimcop and i think that is why we are here today or that is

why i'm here to testify about that program. how important it is, we started to work with community policing as i told you in 2004 and we have a group of elders that can address not only our mayor but chiefs of police and others and that is where we came to with aimcop. we saw problem and we knew there was a problem. the one primary thing that our somali people have agreed upon, the work that we have tried to do in st. paul. their youth, the young people. they wanted to be successful. they want them to be productive members of society so i hope that answers your question, maam. >> our chairman also has alluded to some problems with the care organization. i note with respect to the somali men in minneapolis that in a press conference, that community said that they have been told that there are constitutional rights and the need to get attorneys, that has been frowned upon by some on

this committee. do you think that is consistent with other arrests or other questioning or anything that somebody might want to talk to their lawyer before, to sit down with law enforcement or at the eye to talk about something in particular, even if they are not one of the suspects in something? >> so just to be clear, maam, the question is should somali or any other individual have the opportunity to. >> for a lawyer and to understand their constitutional rights here in america? >> depending on the situation, absolutely. i think those are the pillars of american society. >> thank you, chief. i appreciate your testimony. thank you as chairman. >> the gentleman from minnesota. i asked him to yield to me for five minutes if you would sir. i would like to make three quick points. won the recent case in divestment and the individual

mr. mohammed and recruiting in the mosques in minneapolis. number two, as far as they do not share his narrative that they should be core printing and sharing questions of values and also he points out specific way that these hearings have empowered people in the muslim community to come forward. i yield to the gentleman from minnesota. >> i reclaim my time. thank you, sir. chief smith thank you thank you very much for aimcop. you are doing an exceptional job there and we are proud to have that in minnesota as an initiative. thank you very much and a a fellow minnesotan i appreciate all the efforts you are doing in your department not only protecting all of us but also specialized in protecting the muslim youth of our great city so thank you for that as well. one of the things i want to ask you is has the st. paul police department run into opposition from aimcop program from any

agencies that you know of? >> none whatsoever, sir. >> that is excellent. that is good to hear. so no one has ever tried to stop you from going into mosques or anything of that nature? >> no. >> excellent. that is great to hear and that is good for us to know that these programs are working and they are moving forward in protecting our muslim youth. you have claimed in your testimony there has been a lot of good feedback from aimcop and have you engaged in any effectiveness of -- is there have been any benchmarks you have had from where you were a couple of years ago to where you are today? >> sure. chairman, yes there are benchmarks and i won't get into all the specifics. i will give you a more general facts here but somali youths that we have signed up, we had target and smart numbers. be far exceeded our efforts.

one of the key components that we work with and i have my assistant chief here with me today is the outreach work with somali young women and mothers. i can't tell this committee how important that type of work is. it is amazing what in small groups individuals will talk about with us. but that starts with the trust level. so we have edge marks there. we can tell you, the people that are part of this program. we deal with the whole gamut again and i won't get into all the specifics weathered as domestic violence or learning cultural norms for local law enforcement here but that trust may be the piece of the puzzle that gives us information later to stop something bad from happening or stop some young man or some young woman from becoming radicalized. >> you said in your testimony that -- i'm a retired navy captain and have been around 95%. all they want is a safe place to put their head at night and a

nice community to raise their children so i agree with that. thank you very much, sir. mr. falcon your written testimony stated the cutting of the ability of individuals in the united states to revive financial support for al-shabaab is crucial to diminish al al shabaab's ability to carry out terrorist operations. europe also refer to individuals in the united states that have hawala money transfer systems funds to al shabaab activities. can you talk a little bit more about this and a specific focus on minnesota-based funding for al-shabaab? >> thank you congressman. i can come indeed. i think the clearest examined -- example comes from the indictment that was returned within the last year out of minneapolis regarding two women from rochester minnesota who were charged with providing material support to al shabaab and is the indictment sets forth the method by which they

provided that material support was through money transfers ultimately through hawala to somalia. i think it is important to note that hawala's are completely legitimate methods to transfer money to it, country that is no other of the structure available but what the case revealed is without taking care to note who is sending money and without ensuring that there are some abilities out there to track that money, we may be missing opportunities to prevent terrorist organizations from receiving the money that they depend on to carry out operations. >> thank you very much. in the recent mohammed case, he and other co-conspirators out to radicalized and recruit somali youth in mosques. many of us have read and heard about the minneapolis-based islamic center in connection with their radicalization or recruitment of minnesota youth. are there any other mosques that you know that are actively recruiting at this time in the

minneapolis area? >> no. and i think to be clear, the individuals that were responsible for recruiting members of al shabaab from the minnesota community i believe for doing so as individuals, and represented not necessarily any particular mosque, but represented a al al-shabaab and the added -- ideology that organization. >> that is good to know. thank you very much. i appreciated her go. >> the gentlelady from texas is recognized for five minutes. >> mr. chairman thank you very much. i have no quarrel with this committee getting information and making sure that information is utilized in the right way. mr. chairman i would like to submit into the record i letter i believe has been given to your office and that is a request to ask for this committee to hold a hearing and i know that you have been at the forefront of asking for an investigation for a

hearing on the rupert murdoch alleged hacking into their phones of 9/11 victims, and and and so i ask unanimous consent to put this into the record and i'm officially asking the committee to hold a hearing on that. >> i don't know if we have the letter but i will certainly accepted into the record. >> thank you very much mr. chairman. i would add to that but i would like to have a hearing on right wing extremists ideologues who advocate violence and advocate in essence the terrorizing of certain groups. let me add into the record if i could quickly and fbi, it looks like an fbi statement. the white supremacist group charged with making grenades and selling guns. i ask unanimous consent to put this into the record. >> without objection. >> another is supreme his hit list fbi agent says members of the illinois white supremacist

group plan to assassinate a lawyer who has battled hate groups. i ask unanimous consent to put that in the record. >> without objection. >> and i think i have close to 38 pages, 39 pages, excuse me, the list of u.s. hate groups as of 2000 i would like to put this in the record. >> without objection. >> thank you very much. i think it is important for a committee that has the responsibility of homeland security to be addressing these issues in a fair and accurate manner. mr. chairman, i would propose that if we are going to take the information that is given -- has been given by these witnesses and use them in a way that can be constructive, then the next step should be a briefing before this committee by the fbi or the cia, the jttf, which deals with state and local terrorism issues

and the nctc. my concern with the focus of the hearings that we have had is that the isolation of certain groups -- mr. huston you are coming from canada. do you understand my lan of reasoning that we must look broadly at those who made -- may be in the target of tensile terrorists or terrorist activities are being radicalized? do you think that is important? >> is important to look at any other, of it, sure. >> you indicated your government was doing outreach but it didn't do the next that. what is that? >> tackling the nrda is at least. >> you are using the cerebral academic. what narrative are you talking about? >> the narrative that says, the narrative that turns a young percent born in canada to hate the society. >> so you are saying find out what draws them to that? >> no, we know at the narrative is that there needs to be a counternarrative that emphasizes the importance of freedom of

religion, rule of law and human rights, all the values. >> excellent. chiefs myth that we were to provide added funding, it seems that you have outreach to the community and the good news is they have responded. imams have responded and groups of people in neighborhoods have responded and the young people have come. is that correct? >> that is correct. >> an appropriate narrative for this committee would be to first of all chief if you might and i don't want to put words in your mouth, is it simply fair we would look at the broad days of a particular terrorist activity that might harm the homeland? is that a good narrative for as? >> i think we want to look at broad-based but also specific local law-enforcement. again as i talked about before, boots on the groundwork. >> we thank you for your work. my question is as a law-enforcement officer, as the as the chief he would be as concerned about domestic-based terrorism meaning a native or an american that might need in an

extremist, white extremist group. that would be as challenging as possibly another type of group. is that correct? >> that is correct. >> the record show to my knowledge we did not have a hearing in this committee on those kinds of groups and i have evidence that they are as dangerous as any might be. the difficulty with these hearings as it may provide information but it may provoke unnecessarily individual communities that are trying to do their best. the chairman is my friend. i would also like to say this is such a poor time for this hearing. if you want to know about the devastation of a nation, these are the innocent somalis who are fleeing if am and that is the worst famine in the history of africa at this point. so i simply raise the question if we are going to be constructive, let us be constructed by writing the right kind of legislation, getting more dollars because you have proven effective in the young people of your community have come to hear you talk about another way of life. is that correct? >> that is correct, maam. >> that would read the case of

all muslim americans here who would be welcomed. >> the time of the gentlelady has expired. the gentleman from michigan is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you mr. chairman and a thank you reopening comments especially in the strength of that and the clarity of what we are working with. this is a very personal issue to me and i appreciate the witnesses being here today and holding this hearing. as mentioned earlier on in another hearing that had direct contact with two very close, very close family friends who experienced the ugandan come paula bombing. one who miraculously was spared by being in between the bomber and five other bodies or five bodies in between them. and my two who spend the remainder of the night in the in the end the next day identifying bodies. and then, ultimately finding out several of my personal friends, some being muslim in come polly

uganda were victims there and no longer are there because of al shabaab and then hearing subsequent al shabaab coming out and apologizing to ugandans that they were killed because their purpose was to kill whites in american. is a personal issue to me and so i appreciate you being here and talking about how we deal with in a realistic way what is going on here in the united states and in canada our dear neighbor. mr. foci would ask you and thank you for your service as a marine as well, how do you assess the effectiveness of the ui in doj's efforts to support al shabaab's recruitment of muslim americans around the united states? >> thank you congressman. i think we can look at a couple of different factors to guide us in that. first i believe the fbi in doj recognize the threat and moved quickly to counter it. i believe that there is certainly an ongoing need to

take care to focus on any groups that are recruiting people to fight on behalf of a foreign terrorist organization and i i believe al-shabaab currently represents an incredibly active group in that regard so i think efforts need need to be ongoing and we will need to remain vigilant to make sure they are not recruiting. i think if you want to look at whether or not we have managed to stop this problem, we can look at the fact that in february 2008 the state department designated al shabaab a foreign terrorist terrorist or rescission. since that time additional groups have left minnesota to join al shabaab so clearly well are law-enforcement efforts have been affected and continued to be affected then i have no doubt will be effective in the future, this problem is installed on any stretch of the imagination and we will need to continue to focus on al shabaab. >> way in general at least the perceptions out for -- out there from a white u.s. intelligence

and law enforcement communities, some specifics we have here but in general consistently downplayed threats posed by other foreign terror groups had ended up striking our homeland such as aqap in yemen in the pakistani taliban. what was your answer to that? >> congressman i think that it is an excellent question i think the reality is we don't know what terrorist organizations are able to do looking forward. they are certainly in some regards more aspirational than operational. that is, the things they say may not necessarily reflect what they are capable of but the difficulty is we don't know would they are going to cross the line from aspiration to operation and the reality is as was illustrated with what has been commonly termed as the underwear bomber, that cannot be predicted with any degree of certainty and as a result we have to prepare as if groups that are potentially only aspirational today could be operational tomorrow.

>> i guess -- i appreciate the answer that adds to my concern about downplaying it. if we are taking it serious enough. thank you. thank you for being here and thank you for working within your community and giving voice to the overwhelming majority i believe of muslims who don't want this violence in this terrorism to go on and participate go according to a recent report some recruits to al shabaab admitted that trips to go and fight with terror groups in somali and somali were funded by community elders. including a mosque in ohio, not far from me. how can the government health community leaders such as yourself combat al shabaab when respected elders are targeting and encouraging vulnerable and impressionable young men to join the designated terror group by xp the problem is, when people look at the kenyan somali

community they say where do we find the leaders in the zero in on the mosques. but the rielle at the is that there is more to the american somali communities beyond the malls. you need to target the young professionals, people who are coming up. people who are dedicated to the values that have made this country great. that is where you target and those are the people who have the credibility to turn back against the messaging that leads to radicalization. i honestly believe with all my heart that we should stop assuming that just because canadian and american somalis live physically here that somehow or values will move into their brains by osmosis. we have to counter the radicalization by emphasizing the importance and the connection between our islamic values and canadian american values. the fact of the matter is, you can be a fool, better

functioning muslim in the united states and canada than any other place in the islamic world because of the freedom. it is very difficult for sunni muslim to be a fully practicing muslim and shiite iran and vice versa it is extremely difficult for a fully practicing a shiite muslim to live a full life in sunni saudi arabia because of persecution. so this is a very special place. one of the few countries in the united states and canada where muslims can actually be muslims whatever denomination they have and it is values like that in realities like that in fact like that we need to reemphasize to take away this strength of the radical message that the muslims. >> the time of the gentleman has expired. the gentlelady from california, ms. richardson. >> thank you mr. chairman. i concur with the object of the

homeland security committee that we should discuss the potential threat to the homeland posed by the somali terrorist organization al shabaab. i also concur that the alleged recruitment of american citizens not limited by race or religion by al shabaab, the organization's relationships with al qaeda and those associated with the somalia, vis-à-vis the potential plotting against the u.s. homeland should be addressed. however, i want to make sure on the record that according to the ranking committee staff, to this day this committee has not secured a single federal official or other objective recognized authority currently to legitimize the discussion on the alleged limited scope and insinuations that only the activity of muslim americans should be investigated or warrant a discussion. the threats and activity of al qaeda and al shabaab are real

and should be investigated by this committee. clearly it is within our jurisdiction howard the continued limited scope is insufficient and discriminatory. mr. fulk, you said that first of all -- let me thank you for your service to this country. you said you worked on prosecuting those who did efforts on behalf of al qaeda and al shabaab and you are concerned with the effectiveness and the effect of the organization which i agree with you. my question is today, are you here under the direction of the fbi, the cia, the department of justice or the department of homeland security. >> thank you congressman. the answer is i'm not. >> do you have the authority by any of those organizations to submit any of the comments or backup anything you may have said for the fbi, cia, the department of justice for the department of homeland security. >> no, maam. >> okay, thank you. chiefs matthew talked about the recruiting of somali american

youth immigrants. are there other young people, youth, that have been recruited by al shabaab and al qaeda to your knowledge? >> you know, that is probably a question better serve for federal authorities. cantelli just from open-source information i know of just one individual who was not of somali descent. >> thank you. so there are others of somali descent that you are aware of that have been recruited to your knowledge? >> yes. >> and mr. joscelyn, you talk in your -- you are a terrorist expert and that you have been following this since 2006. in your comments, you said in the very beginning mostly muslims. would you also agree that -- are there any other individuals with any other groups that are also being recruited and radicalized by al shabaab. >> certainly. >> thank you. i yield back the balance of my

time. >> the gentleman from texas, mr. mccaul. >> thank you mr. chairman i want to thank you for demonstrating the political courage to hold these hearings. and i must say i am mystified by the controversy that is followed from this. it was said by one of the members we were investigating muslims. nothing could be further from the truth. we are investigating the radicalization of muslim youth in the united states. does anybody on this panel disagree with the notion that radicalization of muslim youth in the united states poses a threat to our homeland security? i take it by your silence that you agree with the idea that the radicalization of muslim youth and the united states poses a direct threat to the security and safety of our homeland security? we know that three dozen americans have left the united states mostly from minnesota to

join forces in somalia, to receive training under al shabaab, to receive training by al qaeda. and i guess the question is, what kind of a threat does that pose to us here in the united states? i want to read to you what was just recently said by mr. olsen who is the nominee to lead the national counterterrorism center in his confirmation hearing just on tuesday. he said al shabaab's bombing latch are targeting westerners shows the group is willing and capable of striking outside somalia and therefore poses a significant threat. so my question to a think mr. folk and mr. joscelyn is, how big of a threat is this to the united states? i mean there are those who would say that these individuals are leaving the united states to join these national forces and a civil war and that is their main focus. their focus is not imposing a

threat to the united states. how would you respond to that? .. >> personal connection. the brigade to read out the bombings was and the bond was a

top al qaeda operative and member, al-shabaab of member killed in the 2000 line to beat the brigade was named because he was legendary in the circles of all the recruits from indianapolis were trained and the department of justice came out with a plea deal in the minneapolis-based recruit and in the material said they named a senior member who conducted the training. talking about the threat you're talking about individuals recorded in minneapolis and received training from one of the all-time operatives and somalia. >> so al qaeda al-shabaab connection i think in my judgment poses a threat to our interest in the united states and aqap has a direct interest in attacking united states so it might correct saying that it's that connection that concerns

you? >> i think my colleague said you don't know when they're going to cross the line from aspirational to pull something off. umar farouk abdulmutallab, nobody in the report thought somebody was going to come across from aqap to attack us and blow it up. >> clearly it's becoming the emerging threat on the scene in my judgment and radicalizing muslim youth over the internet here in the united states. what easier way to do it if you can't get to the country with travel documents why not radicalize people already here? last question, how can we track these individuals in somalia now to ensure they don't come back to the united states and commit acts of terrorism? >> that's a difficult question and they aren't being tracked. it's tough to say because it's

difficult. the problem is once you leave the country and go in the badland africa basically where there is all this warfare it's tough to say who could get a false passport. so many possibilities there. i wouldn't want to speculate how to track these the intelligence committee does a good job tracking by you don't know until somebody will come along. >> we should actually utilize the incredible sacrifice that is being made by visa moly americans on the other side of the equation fighting al-shabaab the prime minister's from the german's state of new york the defense chief is from ohio and people from california so we utilize that to attract -- >> the most effective weapon is i think the moderate muslim against the radical petraeus mcdevitt ask the ranking member

to ask if you want to attend the asked about the testimony and do you consult the justice department and do they put restrictions on you? >> i've not had any restrictions on me prior to putting in here today. >> did you tell the department of justice you were going to testify? thank you. >> the only entity to which i have submitted my testimony to this committee. >> thank you. i want to give the opportunity of the professional life to make sure whether or not he spoke at the department's work. >> thank you.

the point made was that he was representing himself and not any other entity. >> i wasn't trying to counter the point, just give robert hendee swedes on the record what he did and didn't do. with that -- i'm sure she loves you for that. the gentle lady from new york is recognized for five minutes. >> i do love you, mr. chairman but i would like to welcome our witnesses and i want to stay for the record the point in the denial of congressman allyson's committee at this hearing as the member of this body who has the largest concentration of the sue moly americans in the district and worked closely with we

should have afforded that courtesy and i want to put that in the record. what we also say that i have felt a bit troubled about our focus on muslim americans when it comes to radicalization. certainly not a human being alive on the planet right now and that doesn't recognize what is taking place in terms of the islamic threats from a specific group. but when we get into this generalization, and i can't say it better than ms. richardson the fact that radicalization as cross-cultural come across religion, across ethnic to focus on specific communities and not putting the full perspective i think opens us up to others and that perpetuates the notion we

are trying to combat. so i really want to discourage us from stigmatizing and ostracizing communities. this is a nation of diversity, and the generation of liberal americans have been a part of the fabric of the nation for us to focus and is a muslim americans specifically are this threat. when i can also talk about a radicalization of domestic terrorism in my community i don't see the same type of resources being put into the communities that are poor where young people are being a jumped into gangs. and i think the lives that have been taken from that of activity is just as valid. so we need to take a look at our motives here and certainly want to educate the public it's fine, but when we become fixated on a

particular group of people we take our eyes off the prize and then we become even more vulnerable because the unexpected happens. the unexpected delight in norway. so i just want to say, mr. chairman, i love you. our concern is how we treat each other, how we address the threats and the vulnerability, how we educate and inform one another and to have some of our intelligence community on this panel giving us the lowest up-to-date information about the future that you see penetration on. i felt we are dealing with a number of opinions here, and they are not a bad taste. s make of the gentle lady will yield ten seconds. >> we held a series of hearings

and briefings with the majority and minority staff leading up to this with various intelligence security officials as made available to the staff and also whether or not we are stigmatizing the community. he said a work committee hearings have powered the muslims -- >> and he is entitled to his opinion. he is from canada and i don't know what his relationship is to the community here the united states. >> he explained that in his opening statement. >> did he? i didn't get that. >> he worked very closely particularly the community and many analysts because the nexus between toronto and minneapolis. >> that's a relative perspective >> gemmer muslim community? >> so was mr. ellison and he was

denied the ability to come and speak to us. >> we gave him the opportunity to testify which dealt on the witness is from minneapolis and gave the opportunity to testify them. it's an expansion of that and frankly you views of time to focus on this ms. elthon allyson i consider a good but we will listen to other witnesses. >> that is all well and good, but my point remains the same. i'm not here to rebuttal anyone. i'm sure my opinion as a member of this committee and my opinion is we focused almost as a fixation on this one community where there are many threats to our civil society. they haven't been examined at all. i yield back mr. chairman.

>> do you have a harder ball or screwball get us and she stopped the game and i hate to admit that he destroyed the republicans the and i yield him some time. >> thank you mr. chairman and i had a good day. it's very unusual. >> i want to thank you for the focus on radicalization the first hearing and the things we got out of the first hearing and may be for me since i'm a new member we are revisiting this issue it reminds me my first visit to the zoo when i saw a one trick pony, but i will say that hour of the testimony, and we've heard from the first hearing the extended radicalization and the community and the community response from

mr. barrasso, mr. bg, dr. jackson, the next threat of muslim radicalization of u.s. prisons we hear from kevin smith, leading professor burke you see and michael downing and we have another panel remarkable people with good in sight. and i just want to pull from what we learned in those hearings members that are testifying you can jump in. but the community and don't read and engagement is important in breaking the cycle and we have to bring some of the cultural norms and parker teaching american integration and develop an attachment to the community. we need to make sure that we focus on the youth targeted for the radicalization and all are

targeted for radicalization. in fact i go back to the testimony of the testimony that our outreach efforts after a grueling two years have, as the hearts and minds of the somalis american community to come out to stopping the radicalization efforts of the few extremists and radicals in our community. and the testimony said that all of these agencies recognize that you cannot arrest or in force your way of the radicalization issue. the outreach to the members will lead to a trusted net worth for sharing of information and context. does that summarize our effort of what we should be doing to combat radicalization in all of our communities, no matter what religious faith and no matter what part of the country or the world or ethnicity you are, does that sum it up?

i will take the silence as a fact we have had an exhaustive answers to all these questions and i think that is a comprehensive answer to what we're doing, so in the hopes of moving on and working on this issue i hope that answers so we don't have radicalization here in schools or mosques, radicalization of churches in the grocery stores and bingo. i would hope we could focus on this commitment and the resources we can give to our law enforcement officers and those who can work on community outreach and make sure that we are making sure that all u.s. citizens are being integrated into those principles that make

america great and that the responsibility they have to make sure their children are safe and we create the environment we want. so mr. chairman, thank you. i get it. i get it, and i hope everyone else gets it also. >> if you would feel so we could have -- >> inr stand where you're coming from and contribution to the committee. the reason i've gone forward is there's many different dimensions in the radicalization issue and we started off many people in government and the committee and the media defying the threat within the muslim american community, denying the fact there were in the mosques or leaders who were not cover operating and coming forward. as a result of the hearings more people are coming forward and subject to change in the narrative in canada. we've seen by intelligence officials in recent months the concern they are showing between

al-shabaab and aqap linking it up so there's a change in the issue and you are talking about the games and a curse restore the fact is people in the grocery stores have not killed 3,000 americans and that's the difference. we can see there is no equivalency right now between the various organizations that your site has been talking about which never investigated for four years by the way and an enemy that's an international component which is attempting to destroy and for political correctness reasons people in the media and government are afraid to confront. he's doing in the final straw and that's an important part but also is what he's talking about and that is how people in the community step forward and change the narrative and that is what i hope the hearings are doing. it's not prejudged on that but i have the obligation to pursue it. i know time is expired but if you would enter into that. >> i think it is abundantly clear now that radicalization is a problem that all of the use our targeted whether they are

muslim or african-american, whether they are white. there's someone targeting of orchids, all of our children, and i think that all of the answers are consistent which is community outreach, engagement and all those things that require funding and making sure our law enforcement officers and community leaders have the ability to do that which takes funds, so at some point we know the problem is and all of our youth are at risk, and we know the community engagement and all those things are voluble answers. so, i would like to get to the point we start talking about the funding of those answers and figuring out the best way to make sure we protect our kids and our seniors so we don't have those terrorist attacks. so, i was just saying the

purpose of light, it was to say well made. in my sense, it to start focusing on the answer. >> karkh al qaeda list targeting if they start targeting other groups the funding is legitimate by the way to beat what can the narrative we use and i yield to the gentleman from tennessee who has waited patiently. >> thank you mr. chairman and the committee hearings allow for a great exchange of ideas and i appreciate the gentleman from louisiana's comments ha but i was thinking on july 4th we sing patriotic hymns about america and greatness he referenced and we were talking about the freedom of religion and separation of that in government and our funding fathers creation

and the freedom of religion that they've got to worship in america where the country was founded on principles and an islamic religion can practice in this country freely. so i want to encourage dhaka, communities to talk about the greatness and the freedom that we've got and the first amendment in the constitution and supporting law enforcement out there and our liberties, supporting the military even in that part of the world where there is a dominant islam. to have a lot of questions but did the new year the questions and comments by the other mayors come so that me reference an article that i read from al jazeera july 22nd, 2 weeks after

he said a ban on certain aid groups working in somalia where they lifted the group announced the ban remains in place. this is a quote from on al-shabaab which controls part referred by the famine. the earlier groups are not welcome to serve our area of control, the shakes men said in his radio friday there is drought in somalia but not famine. if it is to clarify as 100% false. this is al-shabaab. this is the group we are talking about today refuting the claims by members of this committee def they are saying there is no famine. there's the drought but there's no famine. i just wanted to bring that point out that they are denying the claims even being made here today. i am concerned about al-shabaab 's connection with al

qaeda. there's dimmers articles in september, 2008 pledge of allegiance to osama bin laden to be very time, officially announced the alliance with al qaeda and the connect the form of dhaka. jihad by the one led by al qaeda and today we have strong evidence for the long standing collaboration between al qaeda and the regime using the quds force. with the recent defense and al-shabaab november 09 announcement of the establishment of the brigade the military unit tasked with attacking israel. have you seen any evidence of supporting al-shabaab? >> no, i have not. >> is it possible they receive financing through donations or training from the quds force if the money would supply. >> i can't answer that. i don't know one way or the

other. >> if i could. the irony in our -- have then charming al-shabaab not because they like it specifically but because the one to harm the u.s. ally and federal government of somalia, so let them go through everything and the whole connection between the return and piracy and all that stuff. >> they are extending the reach beyond their home country and i apologize i wasn't in for the whole meeting. how much strength to they have been going beyond africa do you believe and terrorist acts? >> to talk about the connection dittman al-shabaab and al qaeda, the integrated, the decision makers and military commanders

are also people who've been trained in al qaeda camps. second, there is no shortage of food resources so why would they recruit westerners, people who were canadian, u.s. and british passports. is it because we think that they have various issues beyond africa and at the edge ugonda they made an attempted attacking the world in south africa but they were not successful cause they get a global ambitions, collections of al qaeda and also aqap. with recruiting of westerners, they have the means to get to recruit of the border control. >> as the ranking member have -- >> thank you for a much, mr. chairman.

i think it's about iran's involvement. you are not speaking on behalf of the canadian government. >> nine not to be a speck of in the intelligence agency. >> no, i'm not. >> the gentleman from illinois, mr. davis is recognized for five minutes. system x before mr. sheeran. en listening to the exchange, i was thinking of my experience with people i know from somalia. as a matter of fact, and i note that they've got pretty strong feelings about the history about

their existence about when the country, how they were raised, poverty issues, instability, issues of not having certain kind of resources available to them. but i don't know that i've protected any particular feelings of animosity towards say this country or other countries, but they have all expressed in the do expressed consistent basis and serious intensity about the shape of the world, and government. you can give a great discussion going at any time.

i grew up that to prevent the prevention has much more effective than a pound of cure. it was struck by religious differences and happened to be reading the bible the other day and i read the comment that says you would put an end to oppression and every contempt that you would be known as the people of bills the bulls built on the own foundations, and i guess that is my one question would be and if each one of you could just give a brief response, how do we incorporate into the sinking of individuals

if somebody is selling something they are not abiding but i'm not buying it. you could sit corner and higher cracks and wars and when it's this for routt, you will just be broken the end of the day. how do we overcome some of the feelings i guess it may have been developed down through the years and are not so necessarily new but historic we have significant and with individuals who may have come from parents or lived in the somalia, and they are individuals that that hearing.

the society that only guarantees religious freedom and human rights and will flock to the best of its ability. and if you do that, you are under kutz, the messaging of the victim of the that says to a younger people in canada or the united states. but you have to come at this from a perspective and says in islam you just see it there to move by the rules law and washington. thank you. 2-cd is a ticket samples - to answer your question and then a omar general theme. the criminal investigation started they've made a concerted push to reach out to the communities and to really find out at a street level what's

going on and that is an absolutely essential component of any prosecution strategy because you cannot prosecute your way out for a problem and the office and the fbi realized that and are complementing the carnage of crawl justice to this wider debate causative of reach. if we ever send a message by the prosecution's or investigations people are being prosecuted because of what they worship, the language that we seek field and i think outreach has been to make sure. >> i want to add one thing. i have a question similar to what you said which is why the second point in my testimony. the second point of my testimony are that the somalia americans to read more muslims are killed by a al-shabaab than anybody. that's who they killed. the enemies of the community over all of somalia and our enemies can share a common

interest. the do not represent them by a long shot. and when you look for that common bond, when you talk about threats. >> just briefly i was going to say, congressman. continued dialogue whether a writ is within our community or of the somalia to read i do think that is the key because that's what we hear. you don't have to sell or we don't have to buy something. you need to listen first. one quick example the united states attorney for mr. holt used to work with the under his own militia and starts the program as well, but every week and he has a huge group that comes to teach about civil rights and the united states. the had the opportunity to come, they volunteered to come and it's very powerful, and i think that its efforts such as

listening and education that paved the way to success. thank you. >> thank you very much mr. chairman. mr. screen is recognized for five minutes. >> i would like to join those who vindictive to the deep affection for you. [laughter] i love you, too, mr. chairman. if i may, this is a preeminent opportunity to make it abundantly clear this is not to condemn all muslims. is that a fair statement, chief? and we would not want persons who are hearing what we are saying and witnessing what we are doing to conclude that we think all persons who are

somalis are radicals and the people to be watched, people who be monitored to read is that a fair statement? >> i think it's a very fair statement, absolutely true. >> you didn't come here today to deneen muslims. did anybody come to be made the articles and people that want to hurt us come in all forms and shapes and ethnicities. >> have you heard of a person called jihadists jeneane. how tall was she? >> i couldn't tell you. >> was shia under 7 feet? of course, she was. you know she was. what color was her hair to give

somebody knows. mr. johnson, what color was her here? >> light brown or blonde. >> welcome these are the kind of things you might want to take note of. what color -- she did have always, we all agree -- what color were her eyes? don't remember. okay. maybe you will remember this. but it was her complexion? not everybody at once, please. >> she does caucasian, right? of european ancestry. is that they've received and? >> sure to read stomach's this taking you out of your comfort zone to say that the jihadis gene was not at all?

does anybody agrees that g. what jane is what we called in this country a white person. would you kindly raise your hand -- >> of the chairman would yield for a second. >> i would yield but mr. chairman that he would would you extend my time -- >> as a guest of the committee i will take into consideration. the point i'm trying to make as you are leading a series of questions that have no basis at all and anyone who's ever said in this committee no one said anything about the person's ancestry or anything about their race. what you're seeing is al qaeda by its own statement is attempting to read kleist's people of the muslim faith with the are black, white, brown, tan, yellow, and a matter what they might become a male or female, 7 feet tall, lies or have a complexion these are nothing. so it's interesting line of questioning that makes no sense and isn't based on anything as we sit by any members of the committee what are nearsighted. >> mr. hampshire, to be quite candid i didn't expect it to make sense to you.

>> it is my halftime. -- my time. estimate the rules that apply. >> i'm being candid with you because you decided to bring this to my attention to it i'm going along with my line of questioning and i have a reason of doing it because i agree with their you do or not i have said i don't think that we want all muslims to be painted with the same brush in bye city and the line of questioning notes, we should let the world knows that we believe that muslims are law-abiding people and there is nothing wrong with this mr. sherman. it isn't an unreasonable one of questioning. if it causes on comfort for me to make it clear who that there are some people who are intent

on harming us who are persons that don't look like what we typically call terrorists, then i have to respectfully ask that you allow me to continue my questioning. spec the gentleman has 30 seconds. >> of european ancestry who want to harm us into the question of you being here today isn't coup, gamal muslims. i want to think all of you for coming. i think you have been here and you've done had a noble service but it's also important for us to let the world know we are not -- >> the time of the gentleman is expired. live and make several. the reason i interrupted your line of questioning is we heard from so many people what message are we sending to the world.

if we have a member our guest of the committee, in all i am employed anyone on this committee has ever suggested that a person's color, origin has anything to do, that is the wrong message to do. it is no profound of finding itself that a person can be of dhaka terrorist of blue dot i's. >> he would be a guest. your time is expired. >> and the courtesy. >> i've carried it in a. the point i was going to make is if we want the world to realize what we are trying to do in this committee and i believe on both sides of the aisle we are trying to conduct intelligence hearings and the american muslim community the same as the white house. the deputy of national security adviser and the white house went to a mosque and so one of the threats was dhaka is an attempt

so what males and females, blond hair, black skin, brown skin, that was not the issue and anyone listening to your questioning al jazeera or defer the are watching the would think there are people in this country and this congress on this side of the aisle who would suggest that tehran and some is linked to a race or gender or hard and that is wyoming the record clear so those of you who are listening from overseas will realize that the gentleman's had no basis and no foundation. does that surprise you by any witness before this committee or any member of this committee on this side of the aisle? >> thank you, mr. green, for your participation in the hearing. we have testimony in the record that has occurred in prison, that there are now being members

have all sorts of severe threats to the country and i think a lot of time members said. some are baptist come some atheist, and i think the effort was. i will personally think you, your law enforcement experience added significant credibility to this hearing, and i think it is what we need as a committee to

move forward and coming up with good public policy. it was just as good to come and collected. it is legislation addressing those things unfortunately, paid a lot of the resources would be necessary to address the issues outlined that are being cut. so i think this state and local entities and the committee. to continue i'm confident even with the cuts those of you who do it every day will do a good job and for that i think you. >> i would think the chairman

and hopefully it stays. >> [inaudible] >> i know. i want to thank the part cessation after we go through the process you may find common ground the question we are going to make soda look forward to working with you on that. as far as the other issue, i'll look forward to the various cuts this only one of royal to skills and a one to think all the witnesses. a deft and a good job, taking me on a few vacations. thank you. dessel linus license was in law enforcement and to try to do achieve under the very stressful circumstances something she for your service and all the witnesses and let me also say members of the committee may have additional questions and we will ask you to respond to those in writing in ten days and send them on to you if we get additional questions the hearing record will be kept open for ten days and without objection, the

committee stands adjourned. >> [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]

[inaudible conversations] triet [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]

>> we are less than one weekchig away from reaching our debt limit. if we fail and falter, the oited states would bee at the g fractured. we are at the edge of a a cliff

unless congress acts, we areseqf going to go over it and will be the consequences if we do not meet our obligations to pay our debt, it will result in the enormous increase in interest rates. so all of america that's so t to worried about tax increases i have to send a red alert when interest rates go sky-high a. because the failure to act it will be the biggest tax on be america that we could have and will be a tax of the kitchenortg table.l le means to have a variabledent mortgage, it will skyrocket.o if you have a student loan, the interest is going to increase.re if you have a call loan how eno forget it, they are going to be enormous. so we n

means. def we need to preventault the defat loweredin [inaudible] it is as good as gold. well, now, if we are downgraded th could just dea pennoyer horned nation. peopl this is not the united states oy america. this isn't what people fought and died for. to when they say they represent a party that wants to representdet the constitution, hewe all haveo defend the constitution debate and right now, defending theameo constitution and defending america is to lift the debtard ceiling and to get work, thework

hard work of number one, dealins with our debt, but also dealing with another issue of job growth. so we've got to get to work. ato instead, we are busy at work playing the game. squall was not a solution.olutio but i believe we democrats doo have a solution. alladi inop the harry reid proposal. the proposal before that the majority leader robert r substance, real and achievable.. madam president, i was on tvhey yesterday and they said you are, a liberal democrat? well, i don't know if i'm liberal or conservative butervai dalia made ordinary people anddn their day-to-day needs and whenf

people talk about what kind oftt solutions they need and they want everything on the table, tt but i want on the table is the t things w that affect the kitche. table, and that's why i supporte the proposal.void ur is an achievable framework o for avoiding default and downgraded the bond rating now.r at reza important elements. thrh one timing is to take that in a pit it's not about the next sero election. it's showing we are serious ands substantive. second, r it has really importac content,ut where we do not cut s spending and it's observable anr quantifiable and verifiable. number three it gives a path forward to deal with the endorsement issue of entitlemeny so why can't they take it?zled t

i am really puzzled about why they can't take it. w hos 2012. okay. in who knows who's going to be in . trouble. so it can't be about us. it's not about. we have, the people. are let's go to the context.in there are substantial cuts in nt discretionary spending. reaness th affect readiness or military health care and we got rid of a earmarks of a long time ago, and there are actually cuts that the house voted for in the rye and budget. the so a few weeks ago they said yeo to the cuts but when we say yest to the cuts, they say no to the proposal. st but mostwh of all it's not whete i get it, it's that we don't --.

we have to make sure we get aroa solution. what i'd think is importants about the herraiz read proposaln is it is 2.7 trillion in cuts..s i understand the cbo scored it and they say it's 2.2.rillion, well, 2.2, 2.7, that's realan money, and it shows the we are serious and it also provides this important act forwardommiss called a joint committee.ng to now it is not a commission that is going to be outsiders who are experts, think tank environments congress. both sides of the ogle, both d sides of the dome. tm let's get it together.his with them and then let's have this committee where we thenm move forward on the reform of revenue and as well as looking

at entitlement reform.hen, if i want to be clear that plan if in fact the quarter of all become one of refractor theca cianding of the united states on america not only in thethe financial markets but in the wos standing of the world, it will have a very seriousfirst ofll, o consequences. first of all, to benefits. the president is going to haveon to pay the bill based on b whatever money is coming. he won't be up tomorrow. america won't be able to borrowe so the bill will not have the same value that it once did he'y going to have to pay our bill. n so what are the benefits? oneness paycheck. he's the first paycheck he is going to need this to the the troops.t he's got to make sure if they d are fighting to defend americag while we are squabbling aroundoo and screwing around, we are p going to pay the troops. ove o

did it ever occur to anyone ourt troops wouldn't get paid? tig. it's they might not be in the same amount the first month but willc squeeze through. it would be social security. ald mabey the checks will b go out with the social security offices would be closed so benefitswhers would have a direct impact. will he stood on the trickle of money to the state and local government. so what does that mean? money, u community different block grant money, education and so on that's going to cause enormous ayoffs of the state and local level of public employees but also the contractors, the perso, who handles the office machinery and so on, all that business

romanticized over. minority contractors were goingi to have a big impact and then this takes us to the government will definitely slow down or noe pay at all contractors whether it's the big defense guy is than ayployed thousands and thousandp of people were not going to the small to medium-size business like in my home my state that information technology. and we are about to destroy the reputation and solvency of the united states of america. we are about to destroy theitede reputation and solvency of the united states of america not decade only for one david for a decade and maybe the rest of the century and this isn't being done by an outside power.0 we are spending $700 billion in defense and destroying ourselves with inflicted a bonus becauseol

the political dysfunction,ity political rigid in the and political ideology. i could even use more intense dw language. this what we are about to do cannot allow this t to happen. so i say to my colleagues look one of my colleagues said to me yesterday senator mikulski what would it take to get you to the table? 30 i said give me a plan and republican names behind it. i will see if i can support the plan and get 30 of years. o be so, madam president, i know i aa time is up but i don't want the time to be upon america.t's let's come together and stop being democrats, stop being republicans.e let's say call us what we shoula be called, an american, and what do americans to? tough when the times are tough, the tough get going. tough let's make the tough decisions.

back on track. madam president, i yield theofft floor. t >> first i want to thank my good friends and colleagues fromeat maryland for her great work. shela comes from the heart of maryland and america. it's very few people live met in politics in this endeavor have f an understanding of however ricd people feel t and think and take and and a great senator from maryland, and i want to thanki a her for her outstanding remarksn if this body on both sides of t the ogle would listen to her anw her common sense intelligence wt would be in better shape than we are now so i think my colleague from the great state ofss maryland.ock madam president, i rise toe or discuss the deadlock we reachedt over raising the nation's debtot ceiling. two nights ago the presidentin e

spoke and put the currentt stalemate in the context of it belongs to a the result of ahe - small block within the house republicans withi that refuses e compromise even 1 inch. it is on their shoulders we have perhaps 100 republicans at the extreme right who seem to be na ove leading the congress, the natio. over a cliff. they don't even care about the f idea that we might default. it's appalling yet they seem to be calling the shots.ver the last few weeks the president has met over and over again with house republicans trying to meet them halfway and in some instances more than half we pt offered to cut record amounts fuom our debt and make cuts intn programs would be extremely painful to our side of the ogleo

this minority in the house has a come to think of compromise as f dirty word and it appears as if answer.ct if you don't care about debt reduction, you don't care about the c debt ceiling you can't get something done.hing now speaker boehner wants to the right thing and compromise but he's struggling to rein in his e caucus. instead of leading the house, speaker boehner is being led by infringer and his caucus thataut thinks the fault is okay.p plan this week he offered a two-stept plan that takes the can down the road. the result is the debt ceiling . only the next few months.it with the new cbo numbers it will inevitably result a shorter witi period of time and that puts up within a few months square one e

with the same thing so you become the t same gridlock, thet same problem we face today.ot what sense in the good lord'ser name those that make to repeat this over and over again until we drive off the cliff? sen it makes no sense. how now, madam president, all we have to do is look at how difficult this crisis has beenn. to results after year ofd the speaker's approach is not only wrong, it's dangerous. it would leave a cloud of default hanging over our heads for the next several months undermining confidence in u.s. bonds. market analysts have rejected the speaker's approach, saying it could actually bring some of the same bad consequences as a default itself. it could even cause a