and these are some travel books with some maps. >> how long does this process take from beginning to end? >> well, we are working on 13 books. we started at the last week in may. will hopefully be finished by the last week in july. so hopefully we will get 13 books done. we have done three, but you can see we have them in the different processes now. so, it really just depends on the books. this is another book, letters from italy. you can see we did a little tissue repair there. we are really excited about the project. ..

>> in pennsylvania with don rash, and so i've been teaching him hands on here, and the next step after we get him to this stage, we will go tool the back of the books. they were all hand tooled with jay mckenzie esquire. and so we'll be doing that also and then making the labels for the books. and that will be the last part of the project. >> do you know on average around how much it costs per book to do it? >> it's going to depend on a size of the book because you've got some of these books, obviously, a little bit larger than this book. so we had estimated about

anywhere, about $350 when we did the estimate on the books that we would be working on this summer, per book. it's really funny because the end sheets, to match the end sheets in this book, the sheets are about $28 just to marble the sheets to match these end sheets, and so, i mean, six sheets. [laughter] but my student is a chemistry major, and he just came in one day and said could i repair a book, and i said, well, i'll teach you how. so he's been working on and off in the library with me this past semester. so we're real excited about being able to work on this project this summer. >> for more information on booktv's recent trip to charleston, south carolina, visit c-span.org/local content.

up next, native american authors susan supernaw and walter echo-hawk talk about their books. this is just under an hour. >> well, good morning. it's my honor and privilege this morning to introduce our distinguished authors. the american indian resource center has done a fantastic job bringing this panel to us today. i know that everyone here is very excited to hear what they have to say. i'd like to start with a question deriving from the, our first distinguished guest's book, and that's how american is miss america? for susan supernaw, the author of muscogee daughter, my so jump to the miss america pageant, this wasn't part of trivial pursuit. growing up in a home deeply affected by poverty, alcoholism

and violence, supernaw sought refuge in the indian church. she was awarded an internship with carl albert, and she won a national merit scholarship to college, and she was crowned miss oklahoma in 1971. now, i have a spoiler alert here, for those of you who haven't finished reading the book, she didn't win the title of miss america that year. but her performance in the competition called very prominent attention to the lives of native people living the paradox of being marginalized by history and politics as strangers in their homelands. this alienation of native people in american society has been due in large part to the legal decisions rendered by our american courts, and our next distinguished author, walter echo-hawk, is the author of "in the courts of the conqueror."

he analyzes ten cases that embody or expose the roots of injustice and describes the effects of nefarious doctrines on the legal, political, property and cultural rights of indigenous people. while the judiciary may have rendered the legal destruction of native american identity and culture okay in many americans' eyes, his survey of these legal travesties offers more than a simple history. it presents a very compelling case for reform in american jurisprudence. taken together you might think that the themes of these two books are too tragic for consideration. but in the course of the conqueror and muscogee daughter offer vivid testimony to counter the cultural stereotype of native people as vanishing americans or someone at the end of the trail. please, help me welcome susan supernaw and walter echo-hawk. [applause]

let's begin with a question for susan. susan, this is, your book is much more than just an account of how you came to be miss oklahoma and compete in the miss america contest. it's really about growing up with cultural confusion sometimes and a lot of stress, navigating the world between your native culture and the larger american culture. if you would, tell us a little bit about those themes. >> all right. thank you. i, um, in growing up i started out in a very rural area north of hominy, oklahoma, and be we lived there -- and we lived there. and there is, and for the times this is taking place in the '50s and '60s. so there's a very different mindset back then. and there was a lot of racism and, that had to be dealt with not just by me, but by my

parents and especially since my father was indian and my mother was not, even they had a lot of racism aimed at them for being an integrated marriage at that time which was, oh, my gosh. but the story is really about finding that strength within yourself. when times get hard, and being able to push through those hardships, be able to make it through the night is what i like to think of it as. and then in the morning when the sun comes up and you can give thanks, then you sometimes have to get help. and there's nothing wrong with asking for help, and that's the other thing i think that's really important about the book is that when times got really hard for me as a, you know, whether it was when i was with 7 or 8 or when i had to leave home as a junior in high school, you have to go somewhere and get help. and i went to the church, and the church offered me, you know, a place to stay and to recover from the domestic violence that

i was having there in my high school years. but back in, before then even that i had my own problems with self-esteem, and people -- i was the youngest of four girls, so i've always felt like everybody's picking on me and calling me names and making me cry and doing all those mean things that your older brothers and sisters do to you. and i won't talk about the things i did back to them because, of course, you know, they'll tell you that part of the story. but it is about, um, getting in touch with your inner self and your spirit and finding something that you can hold on to. and for me as a child i, we did have a lot of church and some religious activities, but it was also i had some dreams in which i had a spirit guide that came and helped me. and although i had seen her once before, the big time i saw her

was when i had the horseback riding accident, and i broke my back. i was unconscious for a while, and i was laid up for a bit. as a kid, fortunately, i healed. i'm moving around great. part of that was not believing the doctors when they said, you know, you should be glad you can walk. you're lucky you're not dead. well, yeah, sure, but i wanted to do more. but we finally had to go to a chiropractor to find somebody who said, okay, maybe exercise is okay. maybe you can do jogging. maybe you can doing? something to strengthen your back. that's when i got into dancing and cheerleading which was physically great. i felt, you know, hey, i got my body back. and then, of course, just as you start to feel good, life has a tendency sometimes just to slap you back down. and it happened to me. i had some fun times, you know, cheerleading, did the tractor queen thing. i'm sure there's not a lot of people out there that would even

admit they were tractor queen if they ever were. [laughter] you were, all right. walter was. [laughter] and you know what? i would have rather driven the tractor. i'm the queen of the tractors, you know? nowadayses they probably would let you. but this is tulsa state fair, and i just held the little trophy and got to kiss the guy that won the tractor pull. talk about disappointment, boy. [laughter] but e got even with -- i got even with 'em later when i was miss oklahoma. but before i got there i did end up -- well, first i went and worked for carl albert, and i would like to just take a minute and tell you about how that happened because it's not the kind of thing that just you would ever plan for, and it's one of those things where, you know, life maybe is good to you and gives you something good back. and then you go and blow it. you know? stick your foot in your mouth or something. you say the wrong thing, you you know, oh that, and this is a good example of how you can stick your foot in your mouth, smile a lot, and they forgive

you, and you still get through it all. when i was a presidential scholar, and that happened in 1969, they send a boy and a girl from each state up to washington, d.c. to meet the president. well, this was nixon, and say what you will, but, you know, he was president then, and so we were all excited. yeah, i'm going to go see nixon. well, the vietnam war was going on, too, and nixon was held up in vietnam, in south vietnam. and so he was late woman coming -- coming back for our luncheon. and so everybody thought, oh, okay, next day, next day. so they took us on some tours, and one of the big areas they had a press conference, and bud wilkinson was there. well, ah, yeah, everybody, yeah, bud will wilkinson. ou coach from the old days. he was president nixon's presidential aide, and he came up and said, supernaw, are you any relation to john supernaw? well, yeah, that's my dad. he said, i remember john when he went out for the football team

at ou. he didn't make it, but he went out. and he remembered because of the name, i think. it was like, oh, great, somebody actually knows my dad. that's cool. and he said, well, have you seen the old s.o.b. yet? i looked at him and i said, do you mean nixon? [laughter] and this was this silence. and i was like, uh-oh. bud's kind of like -- he gets this very straight face, i meant the senate office building. [laughter] now they have more than two senate office buildings, but back then they had a new s.o.b. and an old s.o.b., and i got the see them both. [laughter] but anyway, you know, after doing that i'm kind of backing out, and carl albert heard that, and he's like, wait, wait, come back. and i said, yeah? he's like, i want you to come work in my office this summer. [laughter] and i'm like, well, why? he says, anybody that can call nixon an s.o.b. and get away

with it has to work in my office. [laughter] and he was just becoming speaker of the house, and i did -- i wasn't a registered democrat at the time, but i did become a registered democrat so i could work in his office. so that was the fun part. and, um, i think i'd like to go ahead and just tell another couple, another story here, and that was when i became miss oklahoma x. to get there, of course, i had to, you have to be a preliminary pageant winner. and i didn't know about pageants very much. and i went to phillips university, and i see some of the guys over there, the males, you know, there's a few of them sitting over there, they've got gray hair now. you know, we're all so old we remember bill cosby. [laughter] when he was young, you know? and mel was a name taken from a bill cosby character that, i think, was patterned after joe namath doing the shaving commercials and stuff, cutting himself and stuff. but these were the group of guys

that were the un club, and, again, the trend of the times, we're going to spew on anything we can and try to do something with the establishment. so these guys although they were an un club, they have a club enough to have a representative in the pageant because it was a student activity, and anyone could nominate people. and they called me up and nominated me, and i go through some of the stories and stuff on that. the surprising part was that i won. because i had never been in a pageant before, and i had lots of help from people all over. and, but i did win. i fell down the steps walking up the steps. of course, they had the big -- and the guys that built the steps are here, so i better not say anything bad. they were built well -- [laughter] but they weren't built wide enough to hold a chair and a girl sitting in it and all the other people that suddenly run up on stage. [laughter] anyway, we almost had an

accident there. i did fall down, but i fixed my crown and got back up. i thought that was the worst that would happen. nothing compared to what happened at miss oklahoma pageant. fortunately, i waited until after i was crowned before everything broke loose. and that was a whole other story, but of just getting through the pageant was a whole other story. but afterwards i am crowned, and i'm sitting there and talking, i've got my first press conference with the kiwanis club, and we're going up to this five-star restaurant. and, fortunately, the press wasn't there. so tony spencer who was the pageant director at the time, she was, you know, trying to pin in my crown. i had a flat head, and the crowns never, ever fit, so they're just kind of always wobbling. and she had all these pins and pinned it all in and put this banner on me and said, now, this is your banner, take great care of this. you've got to wear this whole

year, you don't want spill anything on it. i gotcha. so it had been raining, you know how that first week of june can be in oklahoma. it had been raining the whole time. looking outside the water' pooling up, and the limo stops -- it's a limo at least -- you know, stops, and i'm, now, i grew up on a farm, and i tell you what, i can run. so open the door and here she goes running out just like, you know, barrel racing. took about three steps, banner dropped to my feet. i fell. i ribbed my banner, fell flat on -- ripped my banner, fell flat on my face. get up soaking wet, and i'm going to make the last dive into the car, and the guy's got the car door open. and i jump into it, well, i'm not used to wearing a crown. and the crown sticks up about this much off of your head. so as i'm jumping into the car, i hit, and be it knocks me backwards again and breaks my

crown. so toni spencer's running around trying to pick up these little pieces of my crown so we can have it fixed later, and so i get in, and we're going, we finally get me in the car, and we go down to the press conference, go in looking like a drowned rat. and charlie welch is there to greet everybody, and toni goes, susie fell down and broke her crown and toni came running after. ♪ [laughter] i said, you're right, it's going to be a long year. and so we go in, and then charlie's like, okay, now, you've got to speak to all these people, and i'm just soaking wet, just dripping wet. and i'm trying to get it together because this reminded me of my old days of bozo which is how i got -- another one of those great nickname stories, we were going to be like the lennon sisters and have all this beautiful singing, except i couldn't sing my part and ran off the stage crying. that imprinted on my mind

because i was, like, 7 years old, you know? if michael jackson can do it, why can't i even get out and sing? but anyway, i'm going in and charlie says, okay, now, give them a typical indian greeting. we haven't had a miss oklahoma that's indian for a while. so i stand up, and i said -- [speaking in native tongue] charlie asked me to give you a typical indian greeting, i didn't know if he meant the kind that the dakota and cheyenne gave little customer at big horn. so i just said hi to you in my native language. [laughter] so, and i'll stop there because that was my big step on being able to stand in the front of a group dripping wet, no makeup and what makeup there was sliding down my face and still pull it together enough to talk. so having electricity go out this morning at 2:00, it was nothing compared to what i've been through in the past.

[laughter] >> well, um, as miss oklahoma, um, suddenly you're thrust into the spotlight not only as a represent thetive of the state, but as we all though that with native people once we're put in the spotlight, we're suddenly asked to represent all native people. how did you balance that? i mean, how did you become an advocate for native people but without, you know, taking on that representative of the whole? >> well, i think mainly because i probably never felt really normal. and so i never -- well, normal, really the way if you read the book and see how i grew up, it's hard for me to think of myself as being normal. so it's really, i can't speak for other people because i'm not normal. [laughter] so i only speak for myself. but i did, there were a lot of people, there are people that say you sell out and sell out for -- sellouts were really big back in the '60s. you could be a sellout just by

getting your degree from graduating high school, not even to mention college, and the higher your career was, the more you sold out. that was kind of the mentality back then. and there were people that were totally honored. all the tribes of oklahoma, well, representatives from the tribes got together, and they raised the money for my page in the miss america pageant booklet. so evidently there were a whole lot of native americans in oklahoma that were supportive of me. and women's lib was a really big one, you know, protesting against pageants in general. so it was a very kind of scandalous time to be trying to do that. but i didn't know any better, so -- [laughter] >> how did, you mentioned that you, you know, drew upon your native culture to help you through these times to navigate that. would you care to tell us more about how the traditions in if native culture strengthened you through these times? >> i think having a spirit guide

was probably the most ip fliewn cial -- influential part of having that strength. i, we all pray, and i've always been a prayer, but to actually know that there's somebody there watching you is, just it's a very empowering feeling. and i think that really has more than just believing in myself, knowing that there's some spirit or something out there that was kind of keeping an eye on me, that really, that really freed me up to be more. kind of gave me more self-esteem. >> more self-esteem. was there ever an aspect of native culture that you felt held you back in some way? >> yes. and not so much with muscogee, but a lot of indian cultures the women aren't really outspoken and aren't as strong. now, there's a lot of max lineal

american indian cultures where they have very strong women, and i'm very fortunate to be one of those. so being a strong woman does not, did not hold me back as much as it might have in other cultures. but what really grosses people out is i cry. i cannot keep a straight face, i'm sorry. stoic is not here. i are cry. so that's probably one of the things that always embarrassed me. they're like, well, you're not supposed to cry, and i'm, oh! [laughter] >> tell us a little bit about without giving away anything you don't want to give away from the book, but tell us a little bit about the process of earning a name. >> well, it varies, of course, with each tribe and stuff, and it varied with me because i did not -- a lot of people there's this naming ceremony where a child is presented to the sun in many cultures and given a name right after they're born or within a certain period of time

after they're born. and with me that did not happen. and so i really received my name in a dream, and it was up to me to go out and earn that name, and i knew what i had to do to earn the name. and then it took me another eight or ten years to get around to doing it because i was just a kid, and there were a lot of things i had to overcome to earn my name. but earning it, to me, was the high point of it all. and i don't think i could have done it without being miss oklahoma because i really needed to perform publicly. and the chances i had in high school i didn't, my mind wasn't thinking about earning my name. i was involved with growing up and being a teenager, so i really needed that extra chance to prove myself to myself. >> it just occurred to me as i asked the question that some of our audience or some of the people who will view the program may think my question was odd when i asked about earning your name. they say, well, her name is

susan supernaw. maybe if you wouldn't mind explaining a little bit about the difference. >> yes. my indian name means dancing feet. and part of the reason it was really hard is because when i got the name within the dream of the horseback riding accident. and you wake up, and you find out you're paralyzed, and you've been given a name of dancing feet. and i thought that was some kind of cruel joke that the spirits were playing on me. but it was just something, you know, that i did promise that if i got my feet and my legs working again that i would earn my name because i thought maybe that's what it was there for, is to keep mush -- pushing me. >> well, as you think about the experience that the reeders are going -- readers are going to have reading your book, what is the -- if you could narrow it down to one thing, what is the most important thing you'd like readers to take away from your story? the. >> some laughter. because in spite of all the bad

times, you know, we really need to sit back and be able to laugh and feel good. and, yes, there are some really bad, sad parts, and those were very hard to write. but, you know, i would feel great if somebody said, you know, i laughed, i had a good laugh at something in the book because there are lots of silly, stupid or whatever things that i did. naive, i think, is a good word. things that i did. and lots of times i'm putting my foot in my mouth and open it up just to switch feet, so -- >> with -- speaking of, you know, sometimes putting your foot in your mouth -- i seem to be doing it at the moment -- [laughter] tell us a little bit about the inspiration for writing the book. who, what encouragement did you get to actually write the book? >> well, i do mention three, well, a few important people in my life that have helped out, and one of the people i did mention was kenneth ancue who has been my mentor, father figure for a very, very long

time. and when he was getting very ill -- and he's the one that actually did the ceremony that gave me my name -- um, when he was getting ready to die or when he was sick, i'm sorry, i should put it that way in the late '80s and we knew his health was failing, he made me promise to write this down. i'll wait until someone can asks, well, i'm asking you. it took me ten years after that to really get the stuff together and another ten years to get it published. [laughter] it's not a fasts process, but i think he was instrumental in it. and plus the fact that both my parents had passed away, it seemed like everybody was dying, and i'd better hurry up and write this down before we forgot all these people's names and things that happened. >> great. an earlier draft of the book won an award, the native writers' circle of america's award for a first book, right? um, how, what was the change

like from that first book to the book we have with us now? >> um, a whole lot shorter, today's book is. [laughter] the one that won the award was really more of a collection of a lot more tamly stories -- family stories and more stories about me in high school and doing things around, i mentioned a lot more names. but the editors really kind of left all that on the floor to keep the story flowing. so we edited out about 100 pages and really stuck with the, only the stories that really dealt with me getting my name and not all the other fun stuff. >> sounds like there may be more stories for you to write for us. >> oh, yeah. second edition i told 'em i'm going to put a bunch of those stories back in. [laughter] >> great. thank you, susan. um, like to bring walter into the discussion here. we've just heard susan talk about a very personal story, and be, of course, we all expect that the writing of your book

was personal for you, but it deals with a much larger scope. um, how, what was your inspiration for coming to this book? >> well, i think, first of all, let me just say good morning to everyone and thanks for inviting me to be a part of this program. um, i, well, i think in part, you know, susan's story is a smaller story of native america, you know? i think her personal struggles for fulfillment, you know, and to be able to transcend, you know, her problems and become recognized in the miss america pageant, you know, is a pretty stirring personal story, you know, on her part. and i think we have seen on a larger level the same thing, you know, throughout indian country, and that is the during this modern era of federal indian law from, you know, 19 -- the late

'50s, you know, right into the present, you know, we've, we've seen this tribal sovereignty movement, you know? where indian country at the beginning of the '50s was a, probably at the low point for the american indians in american society. our land holdings were about 2%, less than 2% of our original landownership here in the united states. and our people living in abject poverty at the bottom of a selling regated society -- segregated society that was bent on stamping out our traditions and our tribal religions and ways of life and terminating the political relationship between the indian nations and the goth. and the government. just a whole ream of low point, if you will, in native life here

in our nation. and then we, since that point, excuse me, our nation has really witnessed a historic social movement, i think, that stirs the human heart in that we've seen the rise of our modern indian nations, you know, through this tribal sovereignty movement, being able to transcend the social and legal and political problems, you know, that had sort of held our people down and trying to reclaim our pride in our heritage, and our legal rights, political right as indigenous people. and to the point today where we can look around and see a great social movement that, i think, rivals the women's movement, the

civil rights movement, the environmental movement in american history, you know? and i think one of the, one of the reasons why we were able to do that was the law, american law. and this, what they call federal indian law provided the legal framework, you know, for this social movement that has result inside the rise of modern indian nations. but i wanted to study that body of law in my book, um, because out of concern for the, for that body of law because i think there's been a very troubling retreat, you know, from those legal rights by the u.s. supreme court since 1985, you know, where indian nations have lost over 80% of their cases, you know, that come before the supreme court in some terms losing more than 88% of our

cases which means indian, well, that prison inmates actually fare better or receive better treatment by the supreme court than our indian nations. and so as a lifelong practitioner of federal indian law, that troubled me, you know? and it's also led a lot of our tribal leaders and concerned legal scholars, you know, to ask, you know, is federal indian law dead, you know? and so i wanted to write a book. i was inspired, as i always have been, by notions of justice to try to write a book, sort of a unique study of the law to try to understand if i could the forces at work that have, that sort of explain the amazing prevalence of unjust cases

relating to american indians that we see in american legal history. and we have a lot of very unjust decisions that i think many of us take for granted today, but they are cases that were decided by the courts, um, during the course of manifest destiny when our nation was bent on colonizing the land, appropriating indian land and subjugating the tribes and stripping away our ways of life and habitat to make way for, you know, the settlement of the nation. and that process was, was upheld by the courts at every step of the way, you know? and it's created a body of law that upholds some very harsh outcomes for native people. and i wanted to understand that,

you know, because those cases resulted in a body of doctrines, legal doctrines that make it easy today to make our native rights vulnerable in the current u.s. supreme court, you know, to look at doctrines based on race and colonialism that have been embedded in federal law, federal indian law to this very day. and a whole bunch of very manifestly unjust cases that unlike the black cases of slavery or racial discrimination are affecting other races, those cases have been reversed and are no longer cited today as good law, you know, in our courts. but these indian cases remain the law of the land, you know? so, um, i, i picked ten of the worst cases from among a long list of candidates and, um, carefully studied their

historical context and looked at the briefs that were written, researched the characters involved in the cases and tried to understand, you know, how that is, you know? because i think as americans we reasonably expect justice from be our legal system, you know? and that's reasonable because our nation has intentionally designed a legal system to achieve justice, you know? that's listed in our can canons of judicial ethics. we have rules of evidence and civil procedure, criminal procedure, rules of evidence, all designed to achieve a fair trial, and we have an independent branch of government for the federal courts, you know? so that our judges receive a lifelong appointments, you know, so they can hand down just decisions without fear of removal. and so we reasonably expect

justice, you know? and we see that most of the time in most of the cases, but every now and then there will be a case that's handed down by the highest court of the land written by our leading jurists in history that have a manifestly unjust outcome, you know? and how can we explain that? so that' what i tried to explore in my book. and be as it happens -- and as it happens, these ten cases that i did pick are very, very gripping tales, very gripping stories, you know, about epic encounters between two cultures, you know? contending for different ways of life across our great continent here, you know? and they give us lessons in justice and injustice, and i think the role of the courts, i

think, in the winning of the west. but there are teachings, you know, by peering into the dark side of the law and looking at some of these forces of colonialism and conquest and discovery up close, you know, i think we can, we can see those parts of the law that need to be discarded and strengthened in a more just society, i guess, to stride towards a more just society. and these are, present, i think, large questions not only for our nation because the whole idea of conquest and war and conquest, colonization are really as old as humanity itself, you know? and they've always been with us as our human beings, you know, have spread across the planet, you know, and populations moving into new lands looking for a

better life. displacing other populations and what are and have been or should be the relationships between the conqueror and the conquered, you know? and i think that we can look at the vikings or the babylonians, the romans. see, this is a universal set of questions that confront us all, and our american experience has, i think, yet to be written. we can look to the courts, you know, and see what the courts have said about it which is the approach i took, you know? but the final chapter, i don't think, has been written because i think we want to, we are a fair and a just people, and i think that we can look at and see in the law, our law affecting american indians and identify those vestiges of

injustice that are still embedded in that law and try to root them out of the law. and so my book is not merely about injustice, but i think it also points a pathway towards a more just culture as we want to stride toward a more just culture, you know? in a postcolonial world. and root out these nefarious doctrines, you know, that affect our tribal people here in the u.s. and so that our basic notions of liberty and equality, fair treatment, you know, can be achieved for all segments of the society including our native peoples. and so that is, ultimately, i think, the end product of my book. i had one chapter in there that provides a blueprint, i think, for reforming and strengthening

federal indian law in the 21st century. >> well, you mentioned the parallels with african-american histories or the history of women. at least today, you know, our kids in the k-12 system and -- they at least have heard about, you know, the dred scott case, plessy v. ferguson. maybe many some parts of the country they've heard about roe v. wade and other women's rights issues. what would be the main cases that you would like to see the kids become aware of in that k-12 experience? what, what themes? i mean, for example, you mentioned nefarious doctrines with regard to african-americans it was separate but equal. what cases would you like our kids to grow up knowing, what doctrines would you like them to be wary of? >> well, i think the, of course, the big case in the 20th century was brown v. board of education,

you know, where the supreme court struck down the separate but equal clause, you know? and the dred scott decision, you know, which had in 1896 had laid out the legal basis for racial discrimination and racial segregation in america. the separate but equal doctrine in which all walks of our american life was racially segregated, you know, based on the notion that the legal fiction that blacks are inferior and that they're separate -- their separate treatment by the law, you know, doesn't really stamp a badge of inferiority on them. that was discarded, that skeletal rell of our society -- principle of our society upon which our entire economy was based; our housing, our mix

education was discarded by the supreme court in 1955 by the brown case. and it changed the face of america, and it paved the way for the election of our, you know, first black president, president obama. and we have similar kinds of cases that plague native america, the johnson very mcintosh springs to my mind. johnson v. mcintosh. the fact that you can on land title, for example, that the act of discovery operated to appropriate legal title to the land, to the united states. and this was handed down by the supreme court in 1823 at a time when most of the continent was owned and occupied by indian nations. the supreme court in a sweeping opinion appropriated the legal

title to the land, you know, and said that when european sailors saw the coastal shoreline of north america, that act of discovery operated to transfer legal title. and left the indian tribes as mere ten ends of the -- tent innocents of the government who could occupy the land only at the pleasure of the government. and in the same vein, you know, applying these european notion of conquest and of discovery and describing indians as a race of people that are, have inferior character, inferior religions and that the europeans were a superior civilization, basically. and notions that if that court in the 1820s saw black as also racially inferior in the slave

cases, indians were in the same way, you know? and while the, that racial attitude towards the blacks has been reversed now and rooted out of the law, the same notions about indians remain p embedded, you know? and there's a whole bunch of cases in that same line of judicial thought that justify the absolute power of congress, you know, over indian tribes, their persons and their properties, the sanction of breaking their treaties unilaterally with impunity, the rule of indian tribes, um, as if by unfettered guardianship, you know? without any judicial review, stamping out our religions are

notions that really have no place, i think, in a modern society that has much higher values. and so we've come a long way in the, under the law in federal indian law, and we have had an incredible social movement. but this idea of the supreme court pairing back on those -- paring back on those rights is very troubling. i think we not only have to halt that but go in and strengthen that body of law. the u.n. in if 2007 passed the u.n. declaration on the rights of indigenous peoples, and it sets forth landmark new standards for the survival and the dignity and the well being of the world's indigenous peoples including here in the united states. and these are rights that encompass all of our aspirations

as american indians that are addressed in that comprehensive human rights deck a ration -- declaration. and the obama administration officially endorsed that three month ago back in washington d.c. so we, we now see a new order and a stand at the threshold of implementing that u.n. declaration and those minimum standards into our american domestic law and social policy, and i think that if we can raise our domestic law so that it comports with all of these minimum standards by the u.n., that it will strengthen federal indian law, it will result in discarding these nefarious legal doctrines that have become embedded in our federal end yang law and make our nation a better

place, you know, in a postcolonial world. you know, these u.n. declarations arise from notions of equality, notionses of justice, notions of self-determination, notions of, that these political and human and cultural property rights of native peoples are inherent human rights, you know? and stem, and they're based on contemporary international human rights law, a much better source of values than, you know, the old notions of racism can conquest and colonialism that are the underlying values of federal indian law, you know? so we have the prospect of maybe brand new set of rules that we can perhaps reconceptualize, you know? the basis for indigenous rights

in the u.s. in a more just fashion, you know, and have still equally sound and perhaps even more vigorous native rights as indigenous peoples. why should we do that? i think that our native and cultural survival of our native people, you know, which is at stake in the 21st century, and we really offer a great diversity this our human family -- in our human family and our wisdom traditions from some of our hunting, fishing and gathering cosmologies ask some l of our -- and some of our earlier primal religions that arose on this soil have much to offer to our modern day society. and i think most americans are seeing and appreciating that now. and i think if we can look to this u.n. declaration as a model, as an agenda for this next generation, you know, to

strengthen that as we stride towards a more just culture, you know, 500 years after columbus. >> well, thank you. um, at this point in the program i'd like to open the discussion to questions from the audience. if anyone from the audience would like to ask one of our authors a question, we have a microphone here in the center aisle. if you'd, please, come to the center so that we can all hear you when you ask the question. while you're maybe thinking of whether you want to be brave enough to stand up and ask, i will genre mind you that this program -- again remind you that this program will be broadcast in approximately two weeks. it will be on c-span in the tulsa area on channel 44, and it's channel 350 and 351 on the directv satellite program.

does anyone have a question they'd like to ask? please, tell us your name and then ask your question. thank you. >> i'm katherine cox, and, um, i'm interested in your hopefulness -- i'm being picked up, yes? of the u.n. influence we have on our lives, and i don't know how big a slice of the population, but it's a vocal one who would just as soon our country not really even pay our dues and participate. they say, you know, we aren't bound by what the u.n. says relative to other things, involvement in the globe and what not. so do you, are you optimistic that what the u.n. adopts will actually be honored by our powers that be? >> i'm very optimistic. um, i think that americans are a fundamentally just people and that once educated it's been my experience as an indian attorney, you know, once the larger society has been educated

on indigenous issues, they've invariably acted to do the right thing. it's the lack of paucity of public information about native people that is the root cause of all of our current problems, you know? in, maybe, america. and i'm just optimistic now than i will have been, you know, that we're ready for social change, you know? i think, first of all, excuse me, um, we've already witnessed the rise of modern indian nations in the last generation or two, and after that experience we can look around our political landscape and see our native tribe, you know, as very sophisticated governments, you know? is and they form the political and cultural and social unit and the impetus for reforming

federal indian law. we see many of our tribes now have made economic gains, you know, through the gaming and economic development. justice costs money, and we are probably poised now to put some of that discretionary wealth, you know, in the area of social and legal reform. we have much more, um, human, better human resources now as far as lawyers and folks like susan, authors of artists and doctors and all of the professions that -- including our traditional people that can, um, work to strengthen, you know, our legal and social fabric. and i think that the u.n. declaration, it shows developing

international norms. and certainly it will be the work of a generation. it will be the work of a generation. there are some very weighty areas even though our laws and social policy come closer than most of the other 72 nations that have the world's 350 million indigenous peoples. there are some complex and thorny thickets there that we need to address as a society, you know? but, and i think that the courts of the conqueror which is the title of my book, i took that from john marshall in johnson v. mcintosh where he described the american judicial system as the courts of the conqueror which makes you wonder how indians are going to fare. [laughter] in such courts. the days of that court are

really numbered, and i think that the supreme court is out of step, it's rowing against the tide. because the other two branches of the federal government want to bolster tribal sovereignty in be our economic self-determination, both the president and the congress, you know? passing laws to strengthen our cultural integrity and etc. , and it's only the superior court that is rowing against the tide. but i think as our larger society insists upon justice for its native peoples, that the courts will come along. so i am optimistic. >> do we have another question? yes, sir. >> for susan supernaw. susan, i've read the book. it's a great story. and i'd like for you to say,

tell i what was the hardest part of writing the book? what was the darkest passage? >> well, the hardest part of writing the book for me was really dealing with my issues with my father. and bringing up a lot of some of the trauma that was associated with feeling rejected as a child and never good enough. and i think after writing and then talking to people and then going back and writing again it was like therapy, and it helped me understand where he was coming from and what kind of life that he was leading and how he was just trying to do the best he could at that time. to get along and try to keep two women happy and all these -- yeah. you can imagine. but as i wrote and find out more about him, i became more forgiving and understanding, and i don't have that kind of resentment and little bit of anger that i used to have.

and i feel really free from that. and i feel like i can recognize him as a person that was just doing the best he could at that time. >> [inaudible] >> no, no, no. we have just a few minutes, so we can probably do one with more question. >> okay. well, i'll sit down if nobody -- anybody -- this is a quick one for ms. supernaw. you mentioned in response to the question about what it was that got you through, the night you call it. how do you work with, if you do, with young people now in similar situations, you know, 30 years now or later who maybe haven't had the dream? you had the gift of the dream, but they haven't maybe encountered or met their spiritual guide, so how do they draw on that? >> i like to, um, emphasize that it is the answer and the strength is within you, it's inside you. and for people that don't believe in a spirit, i try to

say, well, maybe it's your breath. think of it as you're breathing in. because when you talk with students, you get the whole realm. but i do try to emphasize that even -- there would be some people that would say even a spirit guide is just within your head. it's just something that you, your mind sees. and some people might say it's aha louis nation. so you don't need that to move forward. you just need whatever you can find within yourself. and i think most people are probably going to relate that to a religion of some sort. and that, and praying. i mean, i spent a lot of time crying and praying. and for some reason that, maybe just all the indoor fins and is just getting rid of all that pain and stuff, it made it okay. i think all that and not being afraid to ask for help in the morning, as soon as you can. i just a lot of times you may

not be able to find the help that you want, so that's why i say in the morning. there's so many religious people out here and leaders that have help you find that strength within yourself. >> okay. one more short question? yes. >> mr. echo-hawk and ms. supernaw, i would just like to say that i'm so appreciative of you all being here, and i wish that there were books like this written when i was at my daughter's and niece's able. i brought them today because i thought it was very important for them to see indian leaders and what they've gone through and what they're doing for us. my daughter patience and my daughter hope who's the tulsa power club principal, my niece who is the delaware pow wow

princess. and so if you had one thing to just say to them today as young native women, and i know that's a hard question to say because i know that you have so much inside of your hearts and your spirits to give. but if there was one thing that you could just impart to them today, what would you say td tol you that i appreciate you today and just would ask you if you could do that. >> i would say believe in yourself. that's the most important thing. you have to, because if you don't, it's hard to find other people that are going to believe in you, too, so i think that's important. walter, how about you? >> culture. look within your culture. that's where you'll find your strength. it'll carry you a long ways. and also education. >> yes, thank you. that's what all we have time for at this particular