that there will be a book signing immediately following the presentation in the lecture room next door. there will be books by both mr. echo-hawk and ms. be supernaw. like to, again, thank you -- say thank you to our distinguished guests for being here today and sharing a little bit about their work. we'd like to also thank you, c-span, and, of course, like to thank the tulsa city county library and the american indian resource center for bringing another very good program about native people to the tulsa area. like to also thank everyone for coming, i hope you have a safe travel home. [applause]

>> and as the kincaid. >> our you? >> i'm good. i would like to introduce you. retired about this. >> sponsored by became international. these are the student officers. they are here. >> our you? nice to see you. that's great. tell me where you're from. >> okay. from where? >> okay. i was born in newark, new jersey. >> the state of ohio. 70 miles from columbus.

>> was the name of the town? >> one of my kids, i just actually came back from toledo of the long ago. the piece about the union there. teacher evaluation. >> i go to school in new jersey. >> whereabouts? >> read on the shore. >> so, while. >> so do you know the you're going to be to just? >> yes. >> why? >> well, i want to the a teacher. >> well, you are smart. you will be a will to make a lot more money doing something else. know that. >> its other but the money. >> well, talk a little bit about how i think schools have to change. the world has changed so dramatically. , but you?

>> agriculture. teaching is something. >> do you have family? family and education. rice no. >> with the appearance a? though some might think of the teacher. [inaudible] >> what year? >> so off to college in the fall. were you going? where you go? record is? >> out, the cause of new jersey. >> sell. records as the state university? the ohio state university. so you don't have to decide for a while. that's pretty cool. that's really pretty cool. as they say, is changing.

now i was just talking to a guy in maryland. they will let you become an education major until after years of more year. you starts in school. don't just stay in university or college campuses. yes been a lot of time. and that is really important. and other countries, say south korea, they spend their first year watching practice teaching. so see if they have what it takes. that's great. at the gets terrific. >> i would say no. >> i would now offering anyway. that's terrific. >> thank you. >> nice to meet you. >> i'm going to appoint you're out. >> thank you. this, of course, governor.

[inaudible] >> the national board. >> are you a fan? >> i'm the chairman. >> okay. well, how come. i said i had gone to some of the early meetings. you know. never got around to its. and elmira of london and rene. i guess this is something of got to do. >> yes.

[inaudible] >> congratulations. >> a clocker. don't worry about it. >> a heavyweight doorstop. >> said meyer. >> why listen to other people. i said to read this. they said to my dog and the stand. as the thing. writing makes the reading. >> in my riding base, i used to remember. complex stuff. >> rights. >> yes. a dozen stories. >> thank you for what you're doing.

the really appreciate it. very much. especially. >> c'mon. really? [inaudible] >> zero. yes. yap. [inaudible] cards in your book sell. so thank you. thank you. >> reading what the ride from time to time. >> thank you very minutes. still making waves.

still in trouble. >> gaps. >> done no. every once in awhile take two steps forward and two steps back. sometimes three steps back. yap. [inaudible] [inaudible] >> have that meeting. the 16 countries. okay. we were there. we did not qualify otherwise. >> that's right. the attitude, whether you guys

doing. [inaudible] [inaudible] [inaudible] >> of the types. [inaudible] >> a lot of it. right. [applause] [applause] that i know we all know.

he will say some things that i think will tell the story about this tremendous contributions, the passion, the impact that he has had over the years. but let me just say, as a member it has been a privilege is to regularly visit with them and the staff to see the kind of caring and incredible journalistic standards and quality that they combine. they set out. i also wanted to leave that everything has ever done, read this book and really liked. the book, like many of his video pieces, really are thought-provoking. even though i know your experts on education, i think you will find some of his background information, also some of his

questions in the way he presents this context to be really very informative and thought-provoking. so i encourage you. send these to your friends are given to your colleagues have worked because here we are going over this. but the tale, continuing his and warm work. so, what that, i'm sure that here tonight. probably partnered in television. he would have done so. did the next best thing which is create this video. ♪ ♪ >> good evening.

the news this evening, and john barrell, our education correspondent, has written a book, the influence of teachers. i believe john is the leading education journalist in america. he should be, he has been added for a long time. john is the only reported to have interviewed every u.s. secretary of education on this program. in his long career john has learned how to get through doors that are close to others. >> the bottom line is i don't believe that you're going to be the leader. take this school in the direction that we need to go in and have the highest expectations for the kids. i am terminating your principles it now. >> in the late 1980's he talked his way inside the college admissions process. a first for any reporter. >> a b minus an analyst, ibm statistics, of the-n for statistics. b plus.

i don't see that as a very strong record. >> the most difficult thing is where an applicant actually comes into the office and says, why did you do this to me? and then begins to cry. >> john can be confrontational, as he was with his union leader in philadelphia. >> can you evaluate a teacher on the performance of the student. >> yes. >> yes no? >> no, i cannot. >> you can't evaluate it teacher on the performance of his our students. >> right. >> the first to exposed l.a.'s supposedly nonprofit organization for children was secretly receiving money from the makers of ritalin. >> you don't see that as a conflict of interest, taking money from drug companies? >> we see it as a responsibility of the drug company to give us that money. >> but he also knows how to hang back and let the star reveal itself. >> the next word of the sinuous.

strenuous. >> that is not how strenuous is spelled. but his students might never know it. >> after all these years john still at it because there are stories to be told and because he is having fun. ♪ >> to my office in a part of town that has seen better days. i have seen better days, too. my whole life investigating schools, exposing the worst. this is my story. >> school. >> the influence of teachers is a good thing and an important

thing. i'm happy to show our support. [applause] [applause] >> he would now be in the conversation. even more special. that's just wonderful. grateful for that kind of quality journalism. now my pleasure to introduce you. i know understand why they're both colleagues. john not only helps keep you informed of the education, but understands the context of what it takes to educate soup. too many people don't really understand the substance of the issue about which they are reporting, so we really don't get the full picture. he is a lawyer who works on a computer. he has the substantive knowledge

in each of these arenas. he worked for ten years. he has been involved. so he has real substance and attorney. on behalf of the institute top party. [applause] [applause] >> it is a real pleasure. i have to circumspect we go back about 30 years. [inaudible] the non. since the inception. the education fields to my contributions have generally been more on the entertainment

side of the business. i was so impressed with the years. a lot of people. the balance in quality of what learning matters presents and has presented for 30 years now is one of the most amazing. you will see a piece, and it is balanced. it is unlike that they were everybody has an agenda. both sides, and opportunity to take the peace in their own words, their own manner. john doesn't shy away from controversy. everybody is fair. so we're talking about somalia has won peabody awards this, not native.

topknots. there is nothing better. nobody knows this better than john. whatever is to, colleges, schools, where it was wonderful, talking about how to find a good school. all the obvious things were brought up. [inaudible] i mean, it is that in-depth look. learning matters is been there over these years. goes to learning matters. this is not a book to leave here. the look freed by.

go on amazon and buy. all royalties would go to learning matters. so it was an incredible pleasure. my good friend and colleague. [applause] >> thank you very much. thank you very much. on behalf of learning matters, our small and energetic production company, i express all our gratitude to. thank you folks for being here. i want to say just a quick word about the three folksy just heard from. marty, you know as a community school, educational. he is a big deal. but when he goes of his out that big a deal.

his wife is a powerhouse. their daughter, molly, is an up-and-coming an already excellent film maker. i mean, to be friends with marty is like winning the trifecta, frankly. marty, you are lucky man as well as a special friend. now josh kaufman has been a personal friend and our attorney for 30 years, a founding member of the board. he has -- he has gotten me out of trouble more than once, but i think more important that he has kept me from getting into trouble which is actually more important. the most recent, he stole our footage of the disgraceful documentary. anyway, i hope we will be friends for another 30 years. you look like to make it. i don't know if i will.

a leader. c.s. tear us through some incredibly tough times. seats recoveries were here when our founding chairman -- sorry. lost a battle with cancer. then, of course, she inherited the job just as the worst. he had been just terrific. that is what to say a couple of words about the boat. first, strenuous. that came from a documentary about the teacher shortage. we were not trying to embarrass that demand. if you watch the whole documentary, you'll discover he is said to your high school physics teacher. he has been told by his

superintendent which is also the is the principle of a small town in georgia that he has to go teach high-school english, high-school math. his students are. that is too, the story. at the time had a loophole that allowed a teacher to teach up to 49% of stuff that he or she had never studied. so 50 percent that you're actually on the field. they since you. but it's a disgrace, and it probably should stop. he is a mess and man. he did not deserve. he was put into a position where he could not succeed. teaches generally have an attitude. for whatever reason. he would have lost his job. but it is a statement about how we treat teachers and how we treat the media's of our kids.

i wrote this book as a war is heating up, this ongoing war. fighting over ten year, seniority, merit pay, and so on. in the buckeye talk about two camps. there are -- there is one camp with says -- it is a matter of defining the problem, what is education's problems. one camp says the problem is people. we just need better people. if we just had better people everything would be solved. now, that side has firepower. it has the lottery, oprah, education. kind of a clause i journalistic exercise on nbc which is sadly -- heavily weighted towards charter schools. teacher america, a lot of venture capitalists, has fun guys supporting it. the other side is diane ravitch with the megaphone.

a few other people, but it is an unfair fight. so the other side is saying no. is not a matter of better people. it's a matter of making teaching a better job. we need to make teaching a better job. now, there is some data that says that is, in fact, the problem. we lose 40 percent of teachers in the first five years, 40%. no other profession you can dream of has that rate of return. and it matters because this is a country with 311 billion people and 3 million teachers. as a public schoolteacher. if you add up all the accounts and lawyers and doctors, higher ed teachers and put them all

together, we have more teachers and all those people put together. it really does matter. a huge amount of stern going on the profession. 1987 the model, anybody remember mode, mean? the most common. in 1987 the most models for years of experience as 15 years. there are more features -- teachers teaching 15 years than any other. the mode is now,. >> one. >> it is one. we have more first-year teachers than any other kind. astounding. also a huge opportunity. then there are astounding things going on in education. if you think the job is to make teachers -- teaching a better job the problem there is that there is a trade union

definition of a better job. it is highly can you get there in the morning, how soon can you leave after 3:00, how many days in advance as the principal has to ask you to come once you teach. it is a very narrow trade union definition that you use the initiative and school boards agreed to. so you can't just blast unions because some school boards signed this silly contracts. so, the better job, better people battle these rates increases. but the point is, this is the last war. this war is irrelevant. absolutely irrelevant to our children. how many in this room are over the age of 47? [laughter] yap. so my. okay. if you're over the age of 27 you went to school because that is where they kept the knowledge. think about it.

the knowledge was in the textbooks, and the encyclopedias, and a teacher said. that is simply not true today. now and permission is everywhere. our schools remain these answer factories, these regurgitation education stuff. in fact we ought to be helping our kids learn how to form new questions. how do you turn information into knowledge? sunday said what is the difference between information and knowledge is. information is knowing that the tomato is a fruit. malice is knowing that you don't put it into a free selig. [laughter] but so we should be helping our kids formulate questions. how do you know that a? and then, of course to we wanted sues we. of course your teaching values. so three reasons if you're over

27. three reasons you went to school. does with the captain knowledge spirit the second was socialization. get along together. right to get along together. there is an application for that today. i say lightly, but, in fact, there is. light pen pals on steroids. there 14 year-old is socializing with a whole bunch of people that she thinks the 14. they might be a 40 year-old congressman. [laughter] so we have to teach our kids about the power of this technology and the power to abuse this technology kamal lasorda's stuff. they have to be armed, literate. now, the third reason we went to school still obtain spirit that is custodial care. we still the school. we have to keep him off the

streets unsafe. but education, the education that is provided is nearly this regurgitation in station -- education. it is not quite meaningless, but close. schools, in fact, become dangerous places. sylvaner smart. they have high energy. if it's not used purposefully and positively it will be used negatively. we will be teeseven guarantee it. you have heard of cyber bullying that is religious child abuse. call it what it is. so the stakes are really high at this point. the challenge is to transform -- the schools are going to go away. charter schools are not the answer. 5 percent.

homeschooling, our children are going to go the public school. we need schools that become places where children learn to ask questions, learn there is no question to be afraid of. learn to ask why. how do you know that? how you know the you know that? project based learning. it means turning around so that we don't put teachers in the position of that boy and man. ways to engage kids and get rid of the answer factories in these regurgitation education. i hope he will read the book. i think there are some answers in there. i think it is absolutely vital that there be a force to counter this attack that is going on as if the problem is just people. i firmly believe that if you make a teacher a better job so that men and women who go into teaching for the right reasons find that we have a lot of other

people right there all along. we just need to take away some of the shackles and redefine what we are doing in a transformative way. i hope you will read the book. thank you very much for being here. thank you. [applause] [applause] >> and nonprofit production company that focuses on education. for more information visit learning matters dot tv. >> susan miller and stephen hoffius are the authors of of people of charleston. book tv spoke with them when we visited south carolina on of recent city store. >> august 31st 1886 was the largest of earthquake ever to hit the east coast of the estates. there were three epicenters.

they were all within ten and 50 miles of charleston, south carolina. the at quake itself was all over the east coast. there was panic in new york city, chicago, detroit, richmond's, a riot because all of the prisoners and state penitentiary demanded to be released. the story when out that there was a right going on. 10,000 people descended on the penitentiary with guns try to put down what they thought was an uprising. all through the south and even down to cuba there was flashes of light that came from the earthquake and glasses were shaking off of the self. so, it was used. >> in fact, it caused a lot of havoc in the area around charleston. it was not known outside charleston. some interesting times for the

earthquake to hit because this city and the world is sort of on the cusp of modernity. they are very used to the insight to having instantaneous communication three telegraph, off. as you get closer and closer to charleston you get more and more dramatic effect. the most dramatic, to me, was what they called sand blows or liquefaction back -- liquefaction. it's like geysers that shot up two stories in the air. the biggest pocket of those was actually a round 10-mile bell which is right were the charleston international airport yesterday. >> hundreds of feet long fishes were breaking open in the ground. railroad trains are being toppled. major damage all around the area. surprisingly not that many people killed. probably 60's some bad night. eventually more than 100. the numbers are a little they

because a lot of people, the records never quite came in. over 100 people killed. >> a huge international story. people seem to have sort of forgotten about this disaster in the wake of the san francisco earthquake in 1906 exactly 20 years later, but it was truly an earthquake that had implications across the united states and west -- got international news. it was a big story. >> hata this city respond? what did they do? >> for a long time didn't know what to do. the city council did not be for days. everybody that night fled from their houses, went out into the streets, stayed in any open space that they could find sleeping in the streets, sleeping in the city parks. a lot of people went out to stay on ships that were in the harbor. then they started to go back to their homes in the morning. the aftershock drove them right

back out again into the street. so people stayed away from their homes for several days. in this city as racially charged as charlton -- charleston college 21 years after the end of the civil war in ten years after the end of reconstruction when whites took back all the government in south carolina. there were tensions among everyone. they could be broken so what can send like camps with people separated by who they felt comfortable with. they stayed out in the streets for days until the city leaders were demanding that they go back saying, you are not going to be damaged by falling plaster. you have much more of a chance of getting a problem from exposure to the elements than if you are at home with your.

>> and they did initially soared of act like they were paralyzed some extent, but they did get around to realizing that there were going to have to provide relief. that was something that charleston, white charleston was really opposed to at first, but this was clearly such a big disaster that though they had had of her -- huge hurricane exactly a year before in 1885 and refused national relief at that time they decided there were going to have to accept all of the money that was coming in. first provide food for people. they established soup kitchens. they established a common theory with a panda out free food, dry food the people could come and get. and they were very proud of themselves for getting this enormous effort set up. they provide tents. a little hard to get tense.

they built wooden shelters. when they finally do the route it is a sort of efficient bureaucracy. but i stand yesterday, it did have some flaws. >> and there was set up a program and then the next day they would jacket and say, no, no, we have to do something terribly different. twenty-four hours later there would junk debt and set up something entirely new again. as with all lot of disasters, a lot of the story is one are two people, especially one taking charge and kind of sadism so we're going to do it. in charleston that person was france's worthington darkened, the editor of the local newspaper, the charleston "news and courier" it was working everywhere. his family was out of town, so he was relatively free to do it. he was the leading figure on the relief committee that distributed the money. this paper editor, he sent the word out a round the world.

people said hundreds of thousands of dollars to him personally for and to distribute however it needed to be done. and he convinced everybody in the city who were moping around and saying, oh, my god. we are devastated by this earthquake. a year ago the hurricane, the civil war. we are cursed. he rallied everybody and said, no, we are not terrorists. we can recover from this, rebuilt. we can make charleston as great today as it was yesterday. and he is the one who convinced people that they could rebound and they could recover. >> he is a very interesting guy because he was british. he is a transplant, charleston's traditionally did not take well. they still call them. but he had come over to fight for the confederacy. he stayed because he really felt that he could make did here in no way that he never could back

in england. and so he doesn't really share native south carolinian prejudices in a lot of ways. married to the very kind reconstructive woman from denver is to actually wrote one of the great diaries from the civil war. he is sort of on both sides of the fence. he is able to talk to people who are from various classis, various races. he does take a lot of stance on social justice unexpected. yet he is still very much a man of his time. >> and he is a huge figure in the democratic party at the time. and 1880's the democratic party was in the south the party of white people. republican party was the party of black people. of very few whites who came down , everybody talks about as

being carpetbaggers. he was the leader of the democratic party, not just in south carolina but in the south and the adults did grover cleveland elected president of the united states. he was well known are around the country. when he put out the word and said we need help people responded. money came flooding in from all around the country from england, japan, the queen of england's center condolences. everybody responded. one of the things that triggered that was the fact that it was 21 years after the end of the civil war, and a lot of former union soldiers in the north kind of banded together and got in touch with the people in charleston and said we will send money, supplies. we will even send you aren't troops who will take post all through the city of charleston. won't that count.

the response from charleston was thanks anyway. we can get along just fine without having more u.s. government troops in the streets. that is not going to help us. >> but they do, in fact. the north and south take this up as a sort of costs. white south carolinian is particularly see it as a way to reunite with the north for business reasons. the north sees it as a way to reunite with south carolina which they continually say, oh, we try to destroy that miserable city 20 years ago. the cradle of recession. now we want to help clean up. we want to make amends. we want to reconnect. so, for white people this is a great triumph. for black people it is a real threat. what that means is that they are conveniently uniting to forget the causes of the civil war, to turn their backs on the movement

for black equality which has a pretty good run. and so it is a very turbulent moment in the city's history. >> the white city leaders are reaching out to all former confederate officers. those of the people who are running the city. and when they put up a relief committee to help of the people in the city, even though the city is 60 percent black this point they put no black people on any of the committee's. the small town near here closer to the epicenter the charleston put black people on their relief committees. on charleston they did not even consider it, and there was really a strong effort, especially led by black ministers share to try to save we can reach the people who need to help better than you can. let us help you find them. this city leaders said no

thanks. we do not need your help. labor was a very big thing. the whole city of charleston was being organized by the knights of labor, which was a labor organization that was active all around the country. they said we're in touch with laborers in charleston, they're the ones you're in it and use houses have been damaged. let us help you. the city told them, we don't need your help either. we can take care of ourselves, and it put the word out around the country. we know what's going on. we can take charge. send the money to us, and we will take care of it for you. >> this is actually going to be my next question. already a racially charged environment. down to the giving out the provisions to my assumption is it didn't happen equally. the population, like you said, black. i'm sure that didn't help the situation. >> there was a lot of wrangling over what made people were the

of aid. they went so a lot of trouble to try to determine if people were able to work that really troubled people. and the reason it trouble people was that they were afraid that if they gave people food and shelter there would have no reason to help clean up the city. it is a kind of bonus for laborers. it is a moment when all the sudden they can come in trouble than triple wages. people need their work. and so suddenly it is a very polarizing situation. all sorts of meetings are attached to relief. in fact, they really were. equitable, i think, about giving out food. >> the commissary and the food kitchen, the soup kitchen that there were running, the vast majority of the people who were in line for it or black people, and they pointed that out on a regular basis. on the other hand, of course

there were. they were the ones who had fewer supplies at home that they could draw on. there were the ones who work in the framed buildings that were in much worse shape and there were more easily damaged, even though a brick building will crumble briarwood building is more flexible in an earthquake, buildings that are already in bad repair are going to fall. lots of low income people were in frame buildings and defaults are in desperate. >> you may send dawson. he had joined. come to the u.s. to join the confederacy, and now he is, you know, trying to get aid to black people. how did that go over? >> a very powerful figure, and during this time he seems to be able to the lead public opinion,

partly because he is so energetic. they're wanting to go home and take care of their own families. their own needs. all seems like a burden. doesn't come south fighting. really concerned about people's needs. he also is one of the people, though, who is always saying, we don't want any idle hands year. we don't want to give any money or any food to people who can work. so, at this moment in the earthquake he is regarded as the hero. >> and on the earthquake relief committee lots of people are proposing, let's sit down right now, let's stop giving out money to all these people. dawson is one of the main figures it was saying, people are still suffering. we have to keep giving money al much longer. they were ready to shut down the relief effort within about a week or ten days from when they first set up.

and as it was they said it down less than a month after they set up, after they pleaded to the country, we really need your aid in your support. less than a month later they decided that giving free shelter and free food was keeping people from making the repairs that were necessary in charleston. a little suffering would actually be helpful for this city because it will push people into making the repairs, the richer people in the city were more willing to make. >> and, in fact, the people who are arguing against this optimistic view are mostly black ministers who were arriving to newspapers, but newspapers in the north and you're saying, you know, they're not telling the whole story. it is really worse than they are reporting. dawson himself writes to his wife in switzerland repeatedly,

it is really a lot worse than we are telling in the newspaper. >> and if you were living near you would either be dead or in a lunatic asylum. you could not have stood it. and many people had that problem. there were all kinds of reports of earthquake induced insanity with people just fleeing. lots of people actually died of fright according to the newspaper accounts. and the death records. the doctors in town. >> committed suicide as a result of the earthquake. and, in fact, all of this was rested up a good deal when the national newspapers were suddenly filled with the predictions of a man named ezekiel stone wigans who was a self-proclaimed whether profit and two predicted that the greatest earthquake ever seen, a smarter than the charleston earthquake was going to hit the

estates on september 29th. of course you remember they're still having aftershocks and certainly are willing to believe that the most insane things can happen. and wiggins predictions actually does tell a prediction of a nameless black woman in liberty county georgia who's supposedly set up in her coffin on the night of the earthquake and predicted that the world was going to end on september 209th. so, a kind of hysteria sweeping the country. supposedly not local, people in michigan and galveston texas and new orleans. >> people in michigan climb up. they built a big platform up in the air. a kind -- the climb up into it. parents and children. they put a sense in rhode so that when the world and is there will be well dressed and they go up into heaven. they take a picnic lunch with

them in case it does not come right away or in case they need a little something seat on their way to heaven, and they just sit there and wait. this was really happening all around the country. there were lots of stories about the gulf coast. charleston almost came to a standstill. lots of people said we don't have to up to any worker at all because we are not going to be around here in another week. and that day, of course, everybody is standing there watching their watches and clocks in the tourist -- church tower is just waiting to see what's going to happen. happened was nothing. and then they had to go back to work and say, so, the world is not going to end. now what are we going to do? or we going to repair the city and live together? >> so how long did it take for this city to recover? >> you know, they claimed that there were completely recovered a year later.

>> they put on a huge exposition. gallo week with a and ousted. come and see how we have recovered. there is no sign of damage anymore, and everything is all better. riyadh back to business one year later. >> but if you read the new york times and places that don't have some much of an agenda they are saying, look around. there is still a lot of damage. they really have not recovered as well as they are giving out. and, of course, if you look around the city now and read the papers, everything was passed up hastily, and we are still dealing with shoddy repairs from the earthquake. >> 125 years later we're still having to go back and make repairs on the building that had been done poorly right after the earthquake. city hall, lots of the school buildings are now, they have studied them and determine that they could not survive an earthquake as strong as we had

in 1886. they have moved all the children off of the school from those schools of of the peninsula and they have to make repairs. on a lot of buildings they're probably going to have to tear them down and rebuild them because what we had was not sufficient to survive. >> the city actually did move on from providing food to providing a lot of that money for repairs. and they would send out inspectors and give people vouchers to do these repairs. you collected those records. they still exist. a lot of the time inspectors would come in and save, no, really, this is not adequate repairs. the homeowner would sign off on it anyway and everybody would just sort of agree to go on. they would want so badly to be back in a normal situation, and i can certainly understand why. but that was the second phase of relief, and that think it is

what the city was trying to fast forward to after they got through the initial free food and shelter face. >> we worked on the book together for 11 years. we would work on the story of the earthquake and think that was the full story. then we realize that we had to go on a little bit further. we had to go to a half years later, the hero of the earthquake, fred dawson, was murdered. his trial was this huge event that was covered all around the country. understanding why people reacted the way they did. three had to go back to 1876 in 1865. and so the story kept getting bigger and bigger. but one of the things that we liked the most was a little part of the story, the little elements. we're speaking right now in the wentworth manson which is one of the grand buildings and great hotels in all of charleston. and it was actually under

construction in 1886, nearly completed when the earthquake happens. you can still walk around and see pieces of stained-glass that are worth because of this shifting of the building that happened the night of the earthquake. the man who was building it came under attack because lots of people said, we are out in the streets. we are living under tents and under canvas. look at the place they you have. you're not doing enough to reach out to us and to help us in our suffering. and it was a small battle going on in charleston at the time. the man who built the building here was on the city council. he had set up the first fire department, real professional fire department in charleston, and he quit city council, in part because of the criticism that he was getting here.

all of the small tensions that would have -- that always exists in any city suddenly when there is a natural disaster like this, the first reaction is, oh, let's reach out and all work together. the second reaction is that those tensions get bigger and bigger and bigger. people don't forget them. in fact, the kind of take advantage of the chaos that is going on right now to work with those tensions and make them bigger. >> so, go back and talk about what ultimately happened. >> sure. >> under attack after the earthquake. he was under attack really for what we consider the left and right at the time. he became a target of a man who would eventually go on to be a u.s. senator. a very colorful character with very faulty language.

he was not called pitch fork at the time. and, in fact, he did not hold office at the time this was going on. they actually established and our arrival this paper to try to bring him down. and there were some wonderful pitch to battles on the steps of city hall. tillman stood up and attacked dawson. dawson tried to defend himself and really was not nearly as good as speaker as telamon. has this british accent that makes him seem more alien. so you would have thought that what was happening was entirely political. he had all sorts of enemies in the city. ultimately what happened to him was very tawdry and mundane. he had a young swiss moment that his wife had brought back from switzerland in 1887 who was living in the house and two apparently had a kind of sexual

magnetism that is not apparent in their pictures. her name was alain burgeron. everybody but frank and sarah seemed to realize that she was a knockout and that she stopped traffic. but she caught the attention of their next-door neighbor, a man named dr. thomas ballard mattel. he was married and had a child. he started stocking here and immediately saying, i want to marry you. i will divorce my wife and marry you which was unserved. at that time that did not even allowed divorce. so he's dr. elaine. in the meantime he has tried to hire his brother as a hit man to kill her father-in-law and then kill her. actually, he will poison his wife. so there is all this drama going on. and dawson gets wind of the fact is she is seeing somebody

unsuitable. >> and so he goes over to the doctor's office, he knocks on the door, introduces himself because they have never met before. he says to my understand that you are making improper advances on someone in my household. i insist that you stop. he rapped him on the head with his cane. the doctors staggered back a few steps, recent his pocket, pulled out a gun that he continually was carrying and shot him dead in his office. freaked out when he did that and immediately coverage of the hat, get rid of the cane, threw them down into the privy, took dawson's body, try to figure out what to do with it. he went into a closet, pulled up the floorboards, started digging up the soil that was underneath the floorboards, took the body and jammed it under the floorboards scraping the face. he could not fit him under the floorboards, so the data to back

out again scraping the face again. eventually he goes to the police and a knowledge is that he has killed the captain. there is panic in the streets. people start saying, we need to go murder the man who was just murdered captain dawson. and as they are marching down to do it people say, wait a minute. captain dawson fought against doing and violence all his life. this is exactly what he would not want us to do. they dispersed. there was a child a couple of months later. dozens killer was found not guilty, and he, in fact, live in charleston for almost 20 years more. and the whole story of that has to do with the whole story of charleston and the tensions in charleston and the trust or lack of trust that people have with each other and with