>> between christianity and islam and the role that iran and turkey may play in u.s. foreign policy and then the dark side of the internet and the triumph of cities, all of this comes after a long list of distinguished authors and topics including nile ferguson and and i am the like the beneficiary but who else could put together such

a program? and over three decades of newspaper journalism including starting as the washington correspondent and editor and publisher of the "chicago sun-times" in under his reign becoming its 1/6 pulitzer and publisher of the daily news. and now as of october high think he is cheered human-rights work in me and now a girl director of the nelson mandela's center for african art that will open if this year or the beginning of next. most important for me is a founding member center for global affairs advisory board. a tremendous source of

support so please help me to welcome the jim and his guest tonight james peck. [applause] >> thank you very much it is a pleasure to be back. let's make sure that you hear everything. can you hear us? we have to microphones going and james peck author of the book that we will discuss tonight it is called "ideal illusions" how the government co-opted human rights" with the context of this book before we go forward, it is in those published by metropolitan books and it is a project which questions changes from

military and economic posture. also the author of washington's china from the cold war and the origins of globalism and publishes is a number of articles in the near times dancer francisco chronicle's and other publications and from the civilization of china project at yale university press china international publishing group in beijing. but as you can see he is a busy man and we will enjoy the discussion tonight. he lives in new york city. earlier this week i went to a memorial service from a great scholar of human rights in as well as a

renowned law professor. i thought about him while getting ready for tonight because while he was part advocate of human rights in the evolution of development and progress, also he knew when to be critical from 1979 was criticizing the u.s. for failing to ratify human-rights treaties and then wrote in the cathedral of human-rights the united states and is more like a fine buttress choosing to stand outside the international structure supporting international human-rights system so without being willing to subject its own conduct to the scrutiny of the system. that was 79. since then the u.s. chess move to from the dismiss if

talents to coopting human-rights. so let's start with that. what is the nature of the coopting in what was the goal to be moved to? >> -- with the illusions and when i saw that i thought very much about which was essential from the american radios which is that they present the veneer that explains who we are but

in reality, there is a way that they allow that to work. they idealize in which we say in the vietnam-era, that is not what we think. when we look at the russians also already in very powerful contrast and the cold war in a sense is the issue of human rights in what i are you in the book, they did not emerge as a language over the second world war but the marriage

and the primary range and their predecessor but of the public force that these were the years i was very active and very empathetic to amnesty international but as i watched the development of the language, what basically concerned me was the designs between the issue which was the war and aggression.

[inaudible] so that we became concerned with valid issues of individual freedom, torture, and it was concerned with legal rights and free speech in the issues that are much easier for americans to deal with. civil-rights and political rights where individuals are constrained so there is civil rights that yet to watching the emergence of these at the same time or seeing will biculturalism

was paralleling the increasing gap of wealth and power and at the same time the concern with the laws of war was paralleling the continuation of one war after another. it made me begin to think there was the defied it was that you is like the second world war but it was the word from teddy roosevelt that the human rights verses capitalist this is also a language that appears and for those who remember the

kind of arguments that march and is there keating, jr. made -- more in the third king made that unless we have the peace movement or they come together if they cannot come together, that is the core of those germane thoughts. >> you have begun to describe as the bit more precise how they have devolves because if i understand it correctly, we can talk about this for what the government has been doing in part of the human rights movement especially

the ngo movement has been doing in how they have come together and how much of it has occurred but it is a different kind of movement in the reagan years saying clinton years until now that terminology changes the democracy. can you sketch out this evolution? >> i will try. but what i hit town was the civil-rights but i was trying to breed -- bring back and was a wide range of things that were global have also have issues to do with radical mobilization and collective struggles for the

transformation and it is very hard to imagine the human-rights would have even existed because europeaneuropean s are not to invokes those human rights also hard to envision the way the mission and was succeeding. so asking why basic educational and job this i not provided for and it also looks and the occupation and in the arms race. it tends to be something we

associate moller, but that is not entirely the case. there are revenues. now, how the two came together, at the height of the vietnam war in the early '70s, much of the anti-communist consensus begins to come apart it was said deniability notion the united states may have had to cooperate with countries that were part of the free world. but the part of the shift in the '70s becomes the united states increasingly confronting the world in which the struggles for freedom and the atrocities

are trying to explain what is happening so the old anti-communist defense begins to disintegrate and security managers are very aware of this. and very aware, i think playing a global role with some sort of the explanation why they should play their freedom and roll. so there was a growing concern but an external you have the issue of vietnam's and i think one of the elements that occur with human rights, it could go to

directions but one direction was to use vietnam's as a way to see how americans functioned and did function that has much more to do and exploiting the system of power why there was such global inequality. the other is to say it and why is it a mistake if only we lived up to our ideals. and that became the way of avoiding and that became the element that i think jimmy carter ran running on the notion that america is are decent people and good government really would not do such things.

but within the government, you can look at as my book suggests, the concern of human rights seeing the ideal way to make america once again look like it was the embodiment. in a very particular and universal way of what was good. not only the embodiment of the transformation of american life was about was such with the new means of communication, with a corporate is setian of the world that we are a microcosm. this is what roaches the road about so well and why he was one of the four most advocates of human rights. i think he saw human rights in in a memorandum explaining why we needed the

intellectually coherent in human rights and we need it because it is not going to work as the ideological way unless it can create a positive image. unless we can in addition they weighed the radical changes that threaten throughout the world with a movement toward greater egalitariegalitari anism which was a major theme and unless they could be seen s need to be moderated so my point* is not that they are both on people's minds but my point* is the freedoms that we speak of, freedom of speech civil and political, that's when we

see the government's not using those common the ideologically attack gained them and undercuts many of the less understandable means of struggles for social justice by saying they don't have those. >> let me throw up the arguments that human-rights organizations make. one is if they stray too far from the clarity of the baseline of which to make judgments coming they don't have the resources to get too political and lose on all counts. so it is better to stick with civil and political rights because if by the way to have political rights freedom of expression and assembly you can address economic and social issues

where you really can't if you don't have the basic framework to have the associate to speak but the second is human-rights come at least as a non-governmental function, needs the clarity of clear violations of law from this context in clear violators and remedies to be proposed. if imus to mass movements, all and revolution is getting into a much bigger field and a more complicated one and one in which the results are not what you had hoped. looking at most of evolutions or four rush had to go back a ways, the

outcomes after the evolutions-- revolutions turned on a dime and turned up to be very oprah's if. i am going on too long to you have these two currents. and you have parts of the communities to the point* of action saying we can handle one but we cannot handle the other four politics. the other is for mass movements but not to the operation like amnesty your human-rights sponsor. what do we say to that basic critique that could get anything done? finreg there is a lot of questions. [laughter] >> i will try to come up with a few answers to follow up. the first is i think there are limits which allow us to

do with the basic human needs. that is true even in this country. i was struck that it was fdr that spoke of rick -- economic tyranny and the political freedom in this country where not coping with such reality is. and arguably this country has the freedom of speech from the country on the planet and in deed along with half free press 100 years of segregation year after. it is to say that the human rights that cannot cope with the fundamental need driving people is not going to have a long and sustainable life.

the problem is to seeing legalization but one must remember, was far the results of states and search of laws are more compatible than others and there was a speech a couple days ago the president gave an end and that show he put it very well. i am all for freedom of speech and the right to demand i have food but of the food does not result as a speech there is some faint dead the roundabout away our rights our functioning. you're absolutely right the upheavals can often lead to violence and people point* to the iranians but there is the other piece as well addis is the history of hostility by the united

states to so many revolutions. nicaragua is one. it is no accident the human rights movement language birdie did occur. but with the history of opposition to revolutionary movements is also partly what leads them to do many of the deeds we don't like. talk about the iranian baht -- revolution i do not defend many acts that they do but i would point* out that i believe it would be a different place if iraq had not invaded in the late 1970's and had $29 billion worth of arms given to them buy the saudis and the united states and the damage done with the internal dynamic. >> that would go back

further to say when we decided to overthrow, we gave them something they would never forget. they act like it happened yesterday. >> the line senator kovach used it is very useful to think about the problem for most americans they don't remember but for others not to forget. this is what we see in the middle east today that you don't have to tell egyptians and people in turkey and other countries of the nature of american and power. it is different when you have demonstrations in the street and a lot of aspects about the nature of american power are understood and

what we see today is a painful and bloody but in some ways hopeful and extraordinary movement and the emergence of the kinds of demands that the first tour of have to balance and i am not trying to advocate the first courage over the second but the. >> , but for the american government, they have shrewdly used the first career repeatedly to his credit. even some of what i considered the moderate efforts in the early sandinista movement to overcome the gap is. >> you are talking about chile. our foreign policy became public a few years back and

i lost whatever relationship by had because says a man of peace what they told us about our culpability of the horrendous up bending of the government. so i am with you on that. another thing the human rights movement likes to point* to is it is universal doesn't matter your culture or history, is that a useful way to look at it? you mention in different places there are different kinds of rights that have a different order of priority i assume you referred to academic and social rights.

>> there is nothing wrong but i often say people i am teaching in a class but they are hysterically deeply rooted. and it is very easy to invoke the weapon and is all too easy rather than deal with those contradictions that exist that take us down into a much more and 80 gritty of time to figure any particular situation of how to understand. there is a phrase which i sometimes evoke from what is in a stream of a difficult situation to sort out, what

i think she men did is we cannot forget the conflicting components ever. we cannot forget their rnase for free speech and cannot forget the others as well. in the war against the sandinistas one of the things that was done under the reagan administration administration, when the national endowment for democracy in parallel and geo groups began to fund organizations inside nicaragua, in the newspapers were to overthrow, there was very little opposition and

this goes to the core of the notion of the hostility of american government which is suppression of the variety of the press and became the single most effective issue when you close down the major media that was funded. now one could say that the other groups of funding and this is indeed what they did when he tried to extend his term in office of the national endowment and the leaders said human-rights.

so if that type of linkage exists in good democratization changes we're not talking about universal rights per savings into the mechanics of the operations. >> what struck call for me this morning was a very prominent you egyptian margin and he went back to egypt recently to see if the eighth to do something to help and assuming he was the egyptian but the second sentence was you must understand you are no longer a resident egyptian and what is happening here last me 40 egyptians come a by egyptians and not have any

influence of course, that tells them something about the universality of race in which it may be but hong so is the understanding of the attempts to intervene when it shouldn't. >> also something of extraordinary importance in the middle east and we are watching it addis important as integration in the soviet union but also something that is central to those communications but the basic message in the middle east is to the educated class this and this was a fault -- small group of

people i am not saying they don't take a good stance of those who were tortured but i am saying that one of the concerns that has preoccupied the american government has been a radical elections that were understood of those who wish to transform their own society, not necessarily drawing on those ideas but promote fed discontent trying to find their own way. and the primary argument as i read the national security documents are how do we create a globalized community where people in these countries feel the greater diligent -- allegiance not to a country or to their

class but not deep down. and so when the egyptian goes back, does this is in deep imports and by dealing with something and the way the american global system and the relationship with their revolution. contradictions are not necessarily bad the conflict that rights are contradictory deal with this issue. but to broaden out for the human rights so that if somebody goes back to egypt to say the issue is freedom

of speech, stop there. you will not get very far. because the world has changed out from under. but but to see all of these things and those images and to mobilize and facebook facebook, that is a very important section. then it will recreate in the challenge was a nervous and the issues to resonate in

unless the language becomes part of that world as well, i think the future will remain what has too often been hit is the structure of wealth and power and to a degree of the europeans. >> the last four or five decades when human rights devolved into what it is today front and center with government and non-government organizations, we have the un declaration of human rights in the geneva convention and the right to protect which is the latest to come along because one of the explanations is to why we have a right to go into the be a. you have some comments on

whether this organization and it is a plus? because as you mentioned one of the major phenomenon is i just wonder from dither side of colonialism? >> the notion the international community is very illustrious fam i guess it is. >> so when you look at it you expected to get smaller. [laughter] sometimes united states and europe sometimes the chinese usually not it all starts to

be too often still too close to the western club although not exclusively. >> right now you can hear a consensus to go into libya to straighten things out and we can do so because the security council okayed it. also to the extensions and by many of them on the rise brazil it was terminated in a very unclear picture of this international community >> that's right. now on the libya situation, i would reduce my own experience you will get more air than two but it

definitely when powers intervene they do so with interest but not within those ideals they are justified so the first is to have no illusions the second to a these are humanitarian tax. they were not against it but do not call it humanitarian. humanitarianism makes it extremely important but it is leaning radically since the 1990's to antiquate all sorts of elements aid programs counterinsurgency, nation-bu ilding and field states the and and it is still independence and fully functioning that is

essential and third come on libya i think the former president is the interesting figure to say the problem we have in part is 20th century un in the 21st century and there is context in which military force may be useful but it is absolutely clear not a single major power at the moment wants you went to have an autonomous power said it could operate apart from our own but if one were truly serious drop the power to protect they do go together not impossible stands for the human rights committee to take. on the power to protect, i

think, when i read the media from various parts of the world ic first an astonishing reaction of the western powers . [laughter] that the western powers have intervened it will not work. that era is over. the sentiment is they moved beyond what the resolution was about. >> yes 1973 resolution and the third is quite striking which is the tragic messy possible civil war led by a

regime we would all like to see go. nonetheless by the security council to institute the immediate cease-fire to ask somebody to go in to try to see if there was any way of the non violent conclusion but it is notable it wasn't tried the speed by which the powers moved, in as i said i know stinkhorn this will work anymore we will see the upheavals. as they come, will be ones that struggle, a different kind of the jets.

some will be brutally oppressed but it is a changing world and that can change unless it reaches the basic needs of its people and tries to find ways to do so with freedoms and it may take some reforms may yet it is important so yes they are universal but to those particular forms they take will come out of different struggles. >> it may not just be the middle east phenomenon and a lot of the conditions that are there, overpopulation, econo mic dysfunction, a huge u.s. population to be dealt with in the increasing prevalence of social media. the also apply to central

asia. >> and then looking at the other logistics' it is anybody's game but the serbian economist working at the world bank come about what he did is trying to look at what in the quality was about. the statistic he finally came up with which is now widely debated, it is two-thirds of the planet live class well off and the bottom 5% of americans. now that says something about the nature of the world, the billions of people that we have to deal with. and i often wonder on human rights this will resume what it is about, in when the

pictures came out, it was horrifying. you could have an immediate visceral response to make you know, when it first appeared? [laughter] >> the chicago sun times. >> on the other hand,, trying to get people to respond to the b-52 bombings in the same way, if human rights lives in a world where people responded to both the same way, it is not the human rights fall, then we have a different sense of human rights. sometimes we think if the floor is turned into glass and we could see beneath us, everybody who is poor than us and we have to live

every hour of the day thinking how our lives looking at those people, it would be a different world i think can put the urgency of justice, which i do think does motivate the best of the activist, but as part of that they strongly need to diss associates their language from the extent to which it has become mishmashes of language of washington and too many speaking words of power. democratization democratization, transparenc y, i could go through a whole list. inouye i think they are thought stopping words and to many people use them too easily. don't take that personally. but there is a line, a very

shrewd person. why did it you ever joined the council of foreign relations? and he said to me, they're actually very nice people. [laughter] and quite often like talking with them but it is hard for such people to retain the confidence. and even when they argue, they do argue but often start to argue with the same terms and the studies and of having the same words even when they disagree that is what we have to watch for. nice said it is a little bit like the limits of our words

so part of the effort this that other vocabulary and this to shatter that language we're so much of it is shared. so how many people really know even downsize search and activist what is really going on with the rest of the world and how to bring that an? >> i have many more questions but it is time to go to the audience. >> want to come to china for a moment pence you have very interesting views but me say what is it tonight? television? we're on television today. wait for the microphone and please stand up.

we will start right here. >> i want to push to a little further on the evolution of what we are talking about. what is interesting is the title of the soul of america. what i want to push to on it is carter was the first evangelical that what he did what is to combine the new theology of the free market evangelicals with a free market of the democratic party. and i think what you have to look deeper is the question of what do they mean by democracy? are they simply talking about the free market? it does not appear any of this talks about the redistribution of wealth. in terms of a question you

raised of international law, i recently attended some lectures with your me and the question was raised to international law what was the defense and how is it put aside? as a crime against humanity the point* is yes if it came into play a role that the exact same time that nuremberg was addressing the issues, the conversation that curtis had with mac ferrera concerning the firebombing of tokyo when questioned by mac numeric curtis said if we win the war, we are heroes if we lose the war we are war criminals. so you have to address the question what happens when talking about the soul of america? the relationship between good new evangelical

christian right made a theology of the free market and the fact democracy in terms of the ngo is always based of the free market. >> let's get their response. >> one last comment. if you look at how we address trade with the soviet union and trade with china, you see a change that has occurred now which is that we can now tolerates and work with as a market economy those countries that have no more interest of human rights. >> okay. very good. her. >> you ask a short and simple question. [laughter] and with a market issue it was a fundamental and critical. i think it is true there was

a movement toward putting democratization closer and closer together and i think it is something that partly came out as part of the great society of vietnam and the impact of a civilized movement is self which gave rise to a republican party and lyndon johnson was no fool when he said to one of the biographers there goes the democratic party and the south the vietnam war was a disaster for progressive tendencies and data think we have fully gotten over that. now, with than that, we also had the rapid rise in the seven days of the multinational corporations

and the average to save consumers seven end the collective spirit and am okay used to say all the time if we have democracy in the country in good law, you still have to have people mobilized working for it every single day of the week. it doesn't stay put you have to struggle. parts of his own frustrations to the end of his life is it he saw how great that gaf was growing and how the market is not able to deal with it. these issues of freedom of speech are extremely important to mobilize but

one of the elements that is happening in the middle east and other parts of the world i don't think there is a development i'll believe it chinese development model a their and those that struggle to get there as the global market framework but it will not come by some automatic involvement in the market but coming through an enormous amount of experimentation and struggle and unfortunately come a great deal of conflict to find ways that billions of people could be brought to into participating with some meaningful lives. >> just because it is front

and center, it is a very mixed picture. passing a flurry of was in particular for the party, they do all sorts of social and economic things and at the same time in a quality growing at a faster rate than anywhere else in the world. is there enough to be viewed as as a serious alternative group to be going down plaques or does china have more problems when it knows what to do within the inequality will kill them? >> you have several questions that i think you're very good questions.

i think there is the enormous amount happening with the opening day at -- open dynamic within that, at as various struggles of various those which we do not understand well in this country coming out of their own traditions with struggles in their own way and one of my criticisms this as part of the human development is a look at it too closely through heroic individuals which in many cases aren't getting funds from the american government which is a serious mistake.

the magazine is when i first the reason why. [inaudible] i went there and there was a soiree filled with people who later became very prominent. now and then americans don't understand the gap over the kinds of struggles going on in in for not with the levying for not making those struggles in their own way.

and those that were developed a. >> it is the dynamism it is a great possibility. [inaudible] it is not necessarily going to be that way from conception. >> any more questions? . .