vetted as a moderate muslim. i argue in the book the evidence was to the contrary. i reveal documents that show after 9/11 in that first eight days he was interviewed eight times by the fbi. there's a split view in washington. people were highly suspicious about con tacts, and then on the other hand, he was seeing a sort of ad moderate and go-to guy to build a bridge between that world and the united states, and what i add, and i think you'll find interesting is that for me writing about that lunch at the pentagon was really upsetting on many levels because when you look at anw argue r's contacts, it was with three of the five hijackers on flight 77, and that was the flight that slammed into the pentagon. when he was invited back there to lunch as a guest speaker on

islam and politics, to me, it was like a thief returning to the scene of the crime, and you can message him walking the corridors of that building and in some respects marveling at the destruction that his guys were responsible for. >> host: west virginia, ron on the independent line. >> caller: how do you feel about how infiltrated we are and our country because of our immigration policies and the lack of following up on these people, and, i mean, for years and years we've had people coming into our country freely. how infiltrated do you think we are and to what levels? >> well, great question. thank you. one of the things laid out in the book is that anwar especially in san diego, he had a helper, the national called momar which is not familiar to many people, but well-known within counterterrorism circles because he was a facilitator in

san diego, helped them find apartments, get jobs at a gas station and get licenses to help the two people who spoke no english settle in in early 2000, and he is interesting because he came here as a bogus asylum seeker saying he was a somalia refugee, and at one point, he also claimed to be an italian citizen. during that period there was an effort to exploit our immigration system and an effort by the american anwar to explode the system against us. i point out how he was able to lay and get $20,000 in scholarship money claiming to be a foreign student when he went to school in colorado, but, in fact, we would have never been eligible for the money if they knew he was an american citizen. you do see a pattern of fraud, and, again, people using our system against us. >> let's follow-up on that. he was an american citizen, but

got this scholarship opportunity by seeming to be a foreign born, but you also document how law enforcement officers try to figure out a way to get him on violations, so you talk about how there was an observation he actually sort of put the wrong social security number on a passport application, and this was a way coming back in the country, law enforcement officers could get him. when he came back into the country, they didn't. what does that mean? >> guest: glad you asked that. right after 9/11, anwar was a high priority target at the high terrorism task force in san diego because of hiss contacts with three of the hijackers, and i interviewed a case agent putting that arrest warrant together. when he came here as a student to go to university, he claimed to be a foreign national to get the scholarship money and at the same time, he lied about his place of birth on his social

security application, so -- >> host: which doesn't seem like a huge -- not like a giant, giant thing you can lock someone away for the rest of their life for, but it's significant because? >> guest: because every time he used that social security number when applying for an american passport, it was a continuation of the fraud. the idea was not to set precedent about prosecuting passport fraud, but a holding charge. you want to pick this person up for whatever it is, put pressure on them, and what i write about is the most newsworthy elements in the case. in october of 2002, he entered the united states and was held at jfk international airport for three hours because there was this outstanding warrant for his arrest until an fbi agent in northern virginia ordered his release though the warrant was still active for his arrest. what i show in the book that the events surrounding october 2002

were likely withheld from the commission and from congress, and based on the evidence i've seen, there's only three possibilities. one is that the fbi was trying to make him an intelligence asset, number two, they believed he was a friendly contact, or three, they were trying to track him for intelligence, and i argue in the book that things didn't go well for obvious reasons. look where he is today because i have yet to meet a member of congress when i show them these arrest warrants and the circumstances under which the warrant was pulled that's familiar to them. >> host: pennsylvania, democratic caller. >> caller: hi. i'm just a little concerned. last night i watched the "afterwords" program and saw a man with a strange name and interviewed by ted randy, and he talked about the horrible muslim

s in this country, and he used so many inflammatory words and many of his facts that were just wrong. any 75-year-old news junky like myself knew that there were so many errors, and you know, i look at the king committee in congress that tried to up vest gait muslims, i look at this, and now i see you. i know that many of you are hooked up with david who runs around with, you know, mccarthy style attitude to american universities, and i see that you are with fox news. i think that it would be a shame for a few muslims criminals to begin to characterize a whole community as terrorists. i think this is a danger that we

have to look to because, you know, there was a japanese intournament during the second world war. we did genocide on the indians. we are not an innocent people when it comes to scapegoating. >> guest: glad you raised that question because what you see in the book is a very factual case against anwar and those who follow his idea of hate. glad you raised that question because in my conversations with the british equivalent of their homeland security secretary and they deal with the problem longer, he said, you know, we got to figure out where to draw the line, and he said in the u.k. and great britain, we've decided we're not going to use religion to draw the line. we'll draw the line and say the terrorists are on one side and everyone else is on the other side. i think you make a good point there's an effort to use religion as a wedge between us, and we have to avoid that. >> host: catherine herridge with fox news, author of the new

book, and how do you find that balance between protecting civil liberties and the rights of muslims and immigrants as well as second generation americans and doing the investigative work that you're doing because one of the nuances of what you're talking about is looking at muslims who are oftentimes second generation, perhaps born here, so how do you do this work without stereotyping? >> guest: oh, in terms of the investigation itself? i follow wherever the facts lead because a cover a ten-year period with anwar and his followers. some are followers of islam, there's no question, but i say the islam they practice is not the islam of most muslim-americans. this is a digital jihad or ideology of hate. when you look at anwar, what you

see is someone who leads is very double life. what i try to lay out in the book is in many respects this man was a fraud whether it's $0,000 to go to school -- $20,000 to go to school here, pretending he couldn't remember the hijackers which is what we did with the fbi, and perhaps first and foremost while living in the united states, there was a long rap sheet. he presented himself as a leader, but was picked up for soliciting prostitutes in san diego. while in school, a similar charge here in the washington, d.c. area. one of the threads on the book is a search for his mug shot. you can get a mug shot of anyone, but you cannot get one of the guys on the cia's killer capture list. why does the government not make better use of this information to discredit him? this would seem to be an obvious way to do that. in the book, i interview a young

man who had worshiped at his mosque in san diego, and says clearly in the book that anwar is giving american-muslims a bad name m i think the book is fair in that respect. >> host: how do you think about or -- you do give opinions in this book. you do weigh in. the voice of the reporter and also the voice of analysis. >> guest: right. >> host: how do you, as a cor spot, think about protecting civil liberties and protecting people in the way that was brought up making sure things don't go too far? >> guest: well, i don't think there's a moment in the book where i'm not drawing on my factual account and what i've been able to find, and what i law out in the book is after fort hood, it took the administration two months to call it an act of terrorism. i argue in terms of my own opinion that fort hood was not a

drive-by shooting. it was clearly something else and fits the definition of the act of violence to reach political ends. >> host: going to mission hills california, charles, republican caller. hi there. >> caller: hello. >> host: good morning. >> caller: good morning. i had a comment and a question. >> host: sure. >> caller: my comment is i just watched an earlier program about the debt crisis and how we can bring home our troops and not have the fight the terrorist wars overseas. are we at an advantage now that we'll be able to bolster borders here, bring our troops k able to watch what goes on within the country and keep an eye on these, the home grown terrorists? >> caller: good country. one of the things i lay out in the book is where the war on terror is going next, and what it's going to take to win it, this is a book to get. what i show is that terrorism in many respects is like water. it takes the path of least

resistance and we deal with the enemies. you move one way, and it moves another. what we've seen since 9/11 is that al-qaeda, traditionally in pakistan, we now see the franchise operations which have popped up in yemen which is where we have the american and also in somalia, and then there's the home grown component. in many respects, the threat is more complex and more diverse because on 9/11 al-qaeda with a fortune 500 company with bin laden as the ceo and now it's a franchise corporation. there's three areas to look at hard. number one, plots in the pipeline before his death? two, will supercells use his death as a justification to launch attacks towards the 10th anniversary, or will the aphiladelphia yats in -- affiliates step up to fill the void? i don't think it's as simple

pulling down troops and resources from one area into the united states. unfortunately, the people making decisions on these issue u now face very tough challenges. >> host: catherine herridge, you outlined three big concerns, but take us through the translation of what that means for life in america? what's the concerns bouts places that could be attacked, vulnerable positions, and how do you prepare like if you said it takes water, the path of least resistance. >> guest: look at the case in seattle, a case where two young menmented to launch an attack -- wanted to launch attacks on a military installation near fort louis in seattle, and the very least was inspired by yemen and angry that the administration put him on the hit list. now, the reason that these two men were stopped is that they

went to purchase weapons and someone was suspicious of that they were doing and stepped up and alerted the authorities, so what i lay out in the book is that the future may not be a series of 9/11s. it may, in fact, be a series of smaller scale attempts on the united states, hopefully not successful attempts on the utilities, but it's no accident over the last several months if you go on to the websites, the things they support is what i call the small scale or individual jihad. i think it's a sign of, in some respects, the disdisintegration, but the ideology they created on the internet, a small minority of people in the country, but nevertheless it has gotten traction with them. >> host: story from abc news releases a story the plot in seattle was the eight in two years. at least the eighth conspiracy

in two years and arrest the for plotting a fort hood style attack on a seattle center for new military recruits. >> guest: this is the story i'm talking about. this particular case is concerning because it was disrupted not because the fbi was aware of them at that time, but because someone stepped forward which is, of course; the right thing to do, but i just point out there's some cases that have been very much under the radar in this country. in the summer of 2009, there was an attack on a recruitment center in arkansas. i'm sure you remember it. the young man who was the alleged shooter in that case is a convert who traveled to yemen and spent 18 months there and disappeared into the training camps there, and senator john kerry and the foreign relations committee have an excellent report done over a year ago called yemen, the ticking time bomb cataloging the number of americans traveling there and

the number of converts there as well. >> host: going to seattle washington where ed calls on the democrat's line. good morning, ed. >> caller: good morning. you know, i live in south seattle, and i live very close to where the islamic center is, and i probably have seen these guys that were plotting. what i want to say is a general comment to the american people, and it has nothing to do with the terrorists or anything like that. it has to do with our foreign policy. we support the mop arks of the middle east in our support for israel. if you listen to what they were saying, they do have a point. it has nothing to do with islam, but with our policies. without a change in these policies, what's going to happen is this will continue, so i just want everyone to just try to read and understand everything you can about the middle east and what our foreign policy is

doing. >> guest: glad you raised that point. i would like to give an illustration from my box that i think tells people what they need to know about individuals who bought into this hateful way of life. i was in guantanamo bay, one the last court appearances for the 9/11 suspects before the attorney general announced they would go to federal court in the federal district of new york. one of the men, not a household name, his family and bin laden's family are friends. he's like al-qaeda royalty. in the court, he takes the legal pad from his defense table and makes a paper airplane and shoots it across the courtroom at one of his co-conspirators, and he opens the plane, and both men start laughing. i said, i have to find out what's gong on there. on the inside of the plane was written the flight numbers for

9/11 or the tail numbers of the jets. that image of the court and the paper airplane and these two 9/11 suspects mocking us seven or eight years after the attacks, this was a real window on to who these people are. >> host: catherine herridge from fox news, a national cor spot, new book called the next wave, on the hunt for the al-qaeda's next american recruits. one wants to know, ask why she thinks the terrorists attack us and why she thinks they hate us. let's get to the question the last caller asked. start there with that, that question on twitter. >> guest: well, i think, you know, part of the book, what i try to do is take you along on the investigation so you go to the interviews with me, the documents with me, and we kind of discover the story about the followers together. it's not a dry academic read. it's very much like an action adventure, and i'm not suggesting people sit down and

read his stuff on the internet, but it might be actually not a bad idea because once you start to read his writings and listen to his videos, you see that anwar is incredibly effective, and in my opinion what he does is effectively breaks down this cultural identity of people who are american citizens and makes them feel ultimately like victims, and this is the justification of this sort of launching out or lashing out rather against the united states. it's a very hard idea to get your mind around, and that's one of the reasons i told that story is because when you see these guys in court and see how they behave, you know, you don't need a check to know they are not like us, and they don't think like us, and they certainly don't respect our civil liberties and freedoms that we have, so i think this is a great question, and i think it's a question we're all still trying to answer, but what's clear to me 1 the driver of all -- is the driver of all of this is the internet and all of those

associated with capabilities, and in some respects though anwar is on the cia's kill or capture list, in many ways it's hard to erase the legacy of hate he's created. >> host: a republican calling in from houston texas, good morning. >> caller: good morning. ma'am, are you familiar with a term -- >> guest: no. >> caller: the example is the first world is eating themselves to death, and the third world is starved to death, and the solution to that is population reduction, and you can actually apply that in the world today with terrorism going on in the country right now as far as false flag events due to -- look at obama's numbers, they are floundering at best, and god forbid something happen in this country that would be deemed as

a terrorist attack to where we would then have to further become a further militarized police state and give up more freedoms. >> host: so what are you -- >> caller: get behind the wheel of your vehicle. >> host: i don't get what you're saying. you're saying there's scare tactics involved and there's not really a threat? >> caller: yes , ma'am, it's problem action solution. >> caller: -- >> guest: one of the things in the book is the documentation gathered over the last few years, and there's been a documented case of home grown terrorism, and these are cases involving american citizens with some type of tie to an international terrorist organization every two to three weeks since january of 2009. the numbers are there. people ask me how many people are there within the united states. i can't tell you that, but i can tell you what the cases are, and you see the cases following a

couple of different patterns. one, these are american citizens traveling overseas, for example, to pakistan and yemen to get training. perhaps one of the most famous cases is the time square bomber who traveled to pakistan, got training from the taliban, came back to the united states, he drove an suv into times square, and thought he had a viable explosive device, and many counterterrorism officials say they believe it was a successful attack against the united states, and what saved us is the bomb did not detonate. people launch attacks, but have not had training overseas, just a do-it-yourself operations at home. some of the cases we've interpreted them through sting operations like the case last year of the man who tried to detonate a car bomb at the christmas tree lighting ceremony, and then fort hood where it's not an accident that

you had an e-mail relationship between the alleged shooter and anwar #* and he's like the dear abbey of the jihad world and when people have questions about the world, faith, and motivations, they go to him to seek the answers. >> host: looking at a story in the new york time today, robert f. worth reports and the and sent story is now rolfing with gangs of fighters some have captured two tunes, stormed prisons, lewded banks, and military depots in southern yemen, but the government is figging unarmed protesters further north has done little to fight the jihad. >> guest: yemen is a threat hub. it could be afghanistan on steroids. what's in the country is nearly a failed state now. the president left. he was seriously injured in a

mortar attack by the opposition and is now in saudi arabia. there was just a unified country in the last 20 years in 1990 and has a history of breaking apart. what we saw in the last fur or five months is extremists have developed a firmer hold on the southern part of the country, and that's important. i wish we had a map, but you can see the proximity to somalia as well which is a failed state and a big hub of extremists. it's pretty well understood now there's a my gages of extremist jihaddists, whatever word you want to use, and the reason that happens is because they understand with the power videocassette consume, there's opportunity -- power vacuum is there's opportunity. it's hard to operate in a failed state because nothing works. the infrastructure is not there. it's a double edge sword, you

yes , yemen, and the central figures in the group is unlike any other that we see right now because i call it the try trifecta. there is among the leadership of former guantanamo bay detainee, and many have street credit that they didn't have before and they are now rock starrish. there's the american who doesn't resinate in the arab world, but has this draw in the west, and then there's nashir a personal aid to bin laden so he is the line into traditional al-qaeda. this is a leadership that we don't see anywhere else within these al-qaeda franchises in the world. >> host: independent line from tennessee. >> caller: good morning. this is so overblown.

as pointed out, and there's a quote from james madison, "a stand in military force with a long executive will not be companions to liberty. the born danger has been always the instruments of tyranny at home. for example, number of american soldiers died in combat last year, 455, minimum number committed suicide, 407 #. listen to this one -- number of american civilians die dying worldwide in terrorist attacks last year, eight. more have died struck by lighting. tobacco kills 550 million people per year around the globe. i wish every time c-span has one of these quackers on here, get john on here to rebutte them. >> host: let's not resort to name calling. take his point and dissect it a

little bit. >> guest: there's a number of documented cases. we have seen home grown terrorism with international week every two to three weeks since january 2009. i can't argue the facts, just lay them out, and you decide whether it's overblown or not. there's a difference between a series of car accidents and terrorist attacks. a terrorist attack is an act of violence to promote a political end, and that's why it has the impact that it does unfortunately. >> host: there's conversation on twitter talking about and expressing, i guess, concern about raising the level of fear, raising the level of suspicion, and so one of the folks writes i think you're on to trump up here and injustify further privacy and such. how do you balance the need that a couple callers have touched on for privacy and safety? >> guest: well, i wouldn't say in the course of my reporting

that i invade anyone's privacy. i've never had that. i've never had that accusation, i just go where the facts lead, and i argue this this book that what you see is real boots on the ground reporting in a ware that you have not seen in other ways. for example, in the book, i get this al-qaeda tape from the group in yemen, and i think people would be surprised to lernlg that in the process of getting that tape, first of all, the operative wanted $30,000 for the tape. we don't pay at fox for todays, but that number because that's how they try to raise money. when i got this message from anwar, it was buried in a file sharing website that was filled with pornography. they use these sites to transmit messages because they are under the false belief that law enforcement can't go to the sites or government computers can't go to the sites. another thing i say about the

tape is that we had it analyzed by a forensic audio analyst, and what he said to us is something called reverb was added to the tape so when you listen to the tape it sounded like he was in this giant mosque speaking to 10,000 people, and it had the sense of grand to it, but, in fact, he was in a close et with his computer taping this thing, so i just show that as an illustration of what i've done. i don't think i invaded privacy. >> host: i think they are referring to the idea of how far should the government go and you as a reporter covering it. how do you balance the personal privacy of american and the need for information? >> guest: in the book, i explain back in 2006 and 2007 al-qaeda leadership made a very -- had a policy shift and saw that we were aggressively looking at